Another reason why you can't play Mage unless you LOVE your class.

Piliener - Lost City · July 2009

Pirodar - Sanctuary wrote: »

What changes at 90+ that others suddenly find it useful to team up with a wizard?

I can answer this. Sage or Demon b:chuckle. Either having the ability for quick chi recovery or massive damage output. Also the gear gets a lot better at 90 for our *cough* downfalls.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · July 2009

sage = chi = more nukes = massive damage output
demon= more crits = higher damage = massive damage output

they both do the same thing just in a different way b:chuckle

Piliener - Lost City · July 2009

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

sage = chi = more nukes = massive damage output

With sage you are looking at it kinda skewed. We are situational always have been always will be. Sage BID for example chance to give u an extra 30% crit for X number of seconds (where X represents the number I forget at the moment).

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

demon= more crits = higher damage = massive damage output

Again this is the broad overview. Yes the OVERALL crit % is higher, but the total number you can get doesn't even compare to the above mentioned spell.

This is just one spell, however. The "general" terms of how the two broke down have always been sage=chi and demon=dmg. I do think that you need to figure out how you play your wiz before making this choice.

We have things like stun vs. heal, extra dmg vs. extra freez %, mag atk. vs channel reduction, aoe vs. cooldown, elem res vs. 2nd effect focus. These are just what I remember off the top of my head.

To return to the original question though about 90+. In either of these cases a mage has greatly improved their marketability in comparison to pre-sage/demon. Choose properly and there will be little adjustment to your play-style and great improvement to the benefits of the squad (or faction).

P.S. It helps that a lot of people seriously start doing a lot of gv's now and their 1 wiz has some powerhouse skills to make it easier.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · July 2009

Piliener - Lost City wrote: »

With sage you are looking at it kinda skewed. We are situational always have been always will be. Sage BID for example chance to give u an extra 30% crit for X number of seconds (where X represents the number I forget at the moment).

Again this is the broad overview. Yes the OVERALL crit % is higher, but the total number you can get doesn't even compare to the above mentioned spell.

This is just one spell, however. The "general" terms of how the two broke down have always been sage=chi and demon=dmg. I do think that you need to figure out how you play your wiz before making this choice.

We have things like stun vs. heal, extra dmg vs. extra freez %, mag atk. vs channel reduction, aoe vs. cooldown, elem res vs. 2nd effect focus. These are just what I remember off the top of my head.

To return to the original question though about 90+. In either of these cases a mage has greatly improved their marketability in comparison to pre-sage/demon. Choose properly and there will be little adjustment to your play-style and great improvement to the benefits of the squad (or faction).

P.S. It helps that a lot of people seriously start doing a lot of gv's now and their 1 wiz has some powerhouse skills to make it easier.

that made mizu head go boom boom >.<

i was being pretty general. but if you think about it sage can basically spam nukes and crits are not to be taken lightly

i would go into all detail and blah blah but its like 2 AM

Amour - Lost City · July 2009

Here's how I see it.

Sage = AoE
Demon = Single Target.

That doesn't mean that sages can't kill people single target or demons can't use AoE's, but that's what each path is geared towards. The level 11 59 skills for sage are all better for sage, while 90% of the single target spells are better for demon (for example pyro gush and sandstorm)

tyrtallow · July 2009

Sage also seems to cater more to builds with very high Int.

Kristoph - Lost City · July 2009

tyrtallow wrote: »

Sage also seems to cater more to builds with very high Int.

How? Demon is the one with the better defense skill, more target control skills and faster casting times for DPS. They can pull off pure INT more easily thanks to that + do more damage.

Moobysnax - Lost City · July 2009

Demon is still pretty viable in TW, Hailstorm increases freeze chance to 50%, Will of Pheonix gets a 50% AoE range increase, and Mountain Seize gets a 5meter AoE range increase (or range I really don't know). It may not be able to nuke as often but it does have very helpful stalling skills.

Kristoph - Lost City · July 2009

Moobysnax - Lost City wrote: »

and Mountain Seize gets a 5meter AoE range increase (or range I really don't know).

Casting range increases from 30 to 35, AOE range is the same.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · July 2009

i like this
a civilized sage vs demon conversation

lets continue ^^

b:surrender i got nothing to add atm xD

tyrtallow · July 2009

How? Demon is the one with the better defense skill, more target control skills and faster casting times for DPS. They can pull off pure INT more easily thanks to that + do more damage.

Basically because Demon favors luck and Sage favors solid damage. Sage works by enhancing your Int (even the Fire/Earth/Water Mastery passives for Sage favor a high INT wizard more), while Demon works by improvising on what Int you have( a wizard with lower Mattack might favor going Demon, where the +damage and +control capabilities would offset his lower Int).
Int should be one of the main things you should consider when picking Demon or Sage because your Int determines how capable your wizard is - Int determines your damage, your damage determines your effectiveness and whether you kill someone fast enough determines how long you stay alive.
Although generally Sage seems to favor high Int and Demon leans towards wizards with lower Int, there will be exceptions of course.

Kristoph - Lost City · July 2009

tyrtallow wrote: »

Basically because Demon favors luck and Sage favors solid damage. Sage works by enhancing your Int (even the Fire/Earth/Water Mastery passives for Sage favor a high INT wizard more), while Demon works by improvising on what Int you have( a wizard with lower Mattack might favor going Demon, where the +damage and +control capabilities would offset his lower Int).
Int should be one of the main things you should consider when picking Demon or Sage because your Int determines how capable your wizard is - Int determines your damage, your damage determines your effectiveness and whether you kill someone fast enough determines how long you stay alive.
Although generally Sage seems to favor high Int and Demon leans towards wizards with lower Int, there will be exceptions of course.

Demon hardly favors luck when it comes to damage output; it's just the masteries and target control skills. Most skills simply gets a reduction in channeling (pyro, snare) or a boost in damage (gush, sandstorm). And if you include Earth Barrier, you could basically reach the pdef of a Sage with less pdef shardsin the gear. Means more sockets you can use for HP -> Demon has more HP than Sage. Along with the target control skills and a longer range on distance shrink, Demons will have an easier time staying alive or avoiding taking damage. So why you'd want to do anything but pure INT as a demon is beyond me, assuming you get the skills etc.

Mizorie - Lost City · July 2009

This is how I see it, and this is if we are assuming hell and heaven can get all there skills.

Sage will eventually out dmg a hell mage...fact.

Sage will be doing 5% more dmg with each spell.(masteries)

Now hell mages will have 150% more pdef.
Sages will have 120% more pdef.

Now the way I see it is sage = more dmg on the cost of survivability.
Hell = survivability on the cost of dmg.

Here are some examples.

Distance Shrink
Hell= 5 meters further = more survivability
Sage= 10 less chi = chi used for other spells aka ulties/spark/sutra

Hailstorm
Hell= increase of frozen chance 50% = better chance for you to kill and live
Sage= adds dmg to frozen target = more dmg taken by victim

Earth ulti
Hell= longer range = farther from target/out of range= more survivabilty
Sage= chance of one less spark= more spark for more ulti/spark/sutra

Fire ulti
Hell= chance to interrupt= interrupting there actions to kill you
Sage= chance of one less spark= more spark for more ulti/spark/sutra

Now there are acceptions to these fairly simple views, i know that. This is my opinion.

Plus I think I'm a but biased to sage mage. b:surrender

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · July 2009

i never thought if it that way mizorie interesting

still i got nothing to add yet b:surrender

tyrtallow · July 2009

Demon hardly favors luck when it comes to damage output; it's just the masteries and target control skills. Most skills simply gets a reduction in channeling (pyro, snare) or a boost in damage (gush, sandstorm). And if you include Earth Barrier, you could basically reach the pdef of a Sage with less pdef shardsin the gear. Means more sockets you can use for HP -> Demon has more HP than Sage. Along with the target control skills and a longer range on distance shrink, Demons will have an easier time staying alive or avoiding taking damage. So why you'd want to do anything but pure INT as a demon is beyond me, assuming you get the skills etc.

Same goes for Sage. Besides the masteries and the chi-regain/management skills the other skills are basically just another mesh of random effects, which is why I pointed out there will be exceptions.
What I'm basically trying to say is that Sage favors+%damage effects that are only maximized if you had high Int and high Mattack (even all that stored-up chi is gonna be converted into +%damage at some point, besides other useful stuff). Demon on the other hand does not rely so much on a wizard having very high Int/base Mattack (mostly weapon damage, some faster channel and a little bit of luck). I'm talking offensive-wise.

Kannone - Heavens Tear · July 2009

I have a long time to think about sage vs. demon, but just wondering- is it worth making the decision based on skills that more than likely you'll never own?

(Or do sage/demon wizzies tend to pick up all those skills (89-92)?)

If not, i was just thinking to decide based on pyro, gush, & stone rain... in which case I have to decide between a massive damage & stun bonus vs. the ability to charge chi at a ridiculous rate (maybe why pandora went sage?); where all the other skills are just bonuses to work on collecting in between TWs & Delta runs. Thoughts?

O_x just realized the forums butchered my sig : (

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · July 2009

i think spirea has most of the demon skills.

If you take the time to farm, ya you can probably get most of the skills

Piliener - Lost City · July 2009

First, hey Amour add the cost of farming everything (or buying) to get the skills at 79 and 100....no, wait I take that back I don't want to know the number.

I have always planned on going sage, mostly because what I have played of the other classes they seem a lot less chi dependant. Now, my play style requires chi almost all the time and I forcus on getting it as quickly as possible. Sage will just help me with this.

I can however see if I wanted some more output on my damage then Demon would be for me. It is however not how I have been playing this char. (Many people can attest to me rolling over when I'm chiless.)

While I do think both are a viable choice (moreso than some of the other classes) it really comes down to playstyle with me. Do you kite more often than take that one or two hits to kill something? If so then imo Sage is the way for you. Are you in love with crit's or are you more comfortable taking a hit or two (maybe even being LA)? Then Demon seems more appropriate to me.

Moobysnax - Lost City · July 2009

Another way to choose is figure out how much you would want to rely on chi related skills. Demon makes wizards non chi related skills a lot more effective than they were pre-Demon/Sage. Sage makes Wizards in to a demolitions expert.

Kannone - Heavens Tear · July 2009

Moobysnax - Lost City wrote: »

Another way to choose is figure out how much you would want to rely on chi related skills. Demon makes wizards non chi related skills a lot more effective than they were pre-Demon/Sage. Sage makes Wizards in to a demolitions expert.

That's another good point... O_x the choice is tough.

Another question, why does everyone assume sage = more chi:

pyro: Sage version grants a 20% chance to gain 30 Chi on a successful hit.(ecatomb.net)

gush: Sage version increases chance to slow to 45% and increases duration of slow by one second. (translated to english: increases the slow de-buff to 45%, and the duration by 1 second), so they go 5% slower for 1 second longer.

stone rain: Sage version reduces channeling time to 1.6 seconds.

...all i see (and i might be wrong... i r nooblet) is 20% of the time you'll gain 1/3 of a spark from pyro, gush will make the target 5% slower for 1 second longer, and stone rain casts in 1.6 seconds but keeps the 6 seconds c/d so it's not at all spam-able.

Thoughts? and is this why most wizzies go demon (or so it seems)?

Adroit - Lost City · July 2009

Kannone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's another good point... O_x the choice is tough.

Another question, why does everyone assume sage = more chi:

pyro: Sage version grants a 20% chance to gain 30 Chi on a successful hit.(ecatomb.net)

gush: Sage version increases chance to slow to 45% and increases duration of slow by one second. (translated to english: increases the slow de-buff to 45%, and the duration by 1 second), so they go 5% slower for 1 second longer.

stone rain: Sage version reduces channeling time to 1.6 seconds.

...all i see (and i might be wrong... i r nooblet) is 20% of the time you'll gain 1/3 of a spark from pyro, gush will make the target 5% slower for 1 second longer, and stone rain casts in 1.6 seconds but keeps the 6 seconds c/d so it's not at all spam-able.

Thoughts? and is this why most wizzies go demon (or so it seems)?

sage also gets a skill that increases chi by 50 with a cooldown of 1 min.
demon gets a skill that decreases an enemy chi by 50 with a cooldown of 1 min.

Cooldown may be wrong, but I think every class gets that same demon/sage bonus :P

Amour - Lost City · July 2009

Demon chi burn is 30 second cd.
And yeah, every sage/demon gets those skills, no matter the class.

Kannone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...all i see (and i might be wrong... i r nooblet) is 20% of the time you'll gain 1/3 of a spark from pyro,

The 30 chi is stacked on the 15 pyro already gives you, so it's more like half a spark. Which is actually VERY nice, because pyrogram is a very spammable skill.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · July 2009

ya i was really ticked in TW when i died, respawned, had to wait for the silence to wear off. Use morning dew twice, then activate earth barrier, then go out and kill.

I think sage simplifies this.

use fairy skill, wait for silence to wear off, earth barrier and go out and kill.

Piliener - Lost City · July 2009

So I have to ask all you sage/demon's out there. I hear Emberstorm becomes more usefull later on, but I never see anyone using it. Tell me your experiences with it as sage/demon.

Mizorie - Lost City · July 2009

emberstorm only good for hell, and its not used for its dmg, you just use it with no charge so you do base dmg with out the hp loss, and you get the chance to stun. and its a rare drop.

PetiteAnge - Heavens Tear · July 2009

lol ok ...so i love Wizards ..no i ADORE them but that just discouraged me XDb:shutup

Fireblood - Harshlands · July 2009

PetiteAnge - Heavens Tear wrote: »

lol ok ...so i love Wizards ..no i ADORE them but that just discouraged me XDb:shutup

Push on young oneb:victory

Yeefong - Heavens Tear · July 2009

dear god..49 mils..b:byewhy did i make a wiz b:cry

FireWizardEX - Dreamweaver · July 2009

imo sage is much better for wizys than a demon, just see the masterys +5% dmg or +3% crit rate i think inst that hard to find teh best for a dmg dealer like us...if u wanna crit get it from items not for lost the 5% extra dmg witch is also 2 times more in crits.
another reason is that full chi wizards are very very dangerous so sage help us wiht chi...

also black ice dragon strike witch looks awesome have 50% to get +30% crit rate(can some1 tel me if is true that bids have 80% crit by itself pls)
and other ultra skills have 50% chance of cost oly 1 spark instant of 2, while demon help on ultimate skills is dam **** in my opinion
and for me gush and SR are much better on sage version becuz 20% of stun is like play on lottary and +600 dmg on gush is rly bad on hightest lvs when u hit over 4000 per gush and + 600 dmg increase is about +250 real dmg while +5% matreys will up the dmg by around 400...and it have extra slow.
for be honest i prefer demon pyro to sage pyro but is oly 1 skill...

sage also have DPyro and GS witch is much better wiht -20% mag res lower than less channel witch isnt needed at all becuz this skills dps is much lower than guch, pyro,WOP or sages SR...so just use it in sutra combo for even less mag res on enemy.(if DPyro/GS lower res dont stack wiht undie strike just tell pls)

then demon have they OP stone barrier witch is ofc better than sage 1 and they have + emberstorm stun witch is rly nice to me...also sandstrom is better on demon version BUT hight lv wizards gush, pyro or sages stone rain will out dmg per second sandstrom...anyway demon wiz will find a way to use sandstrom on sutra combo ofc..

always use undine strike b4 atk an enemy(not need agains lowbies ofc)
sages combo: sleep or fow, sutra>GS>BIDS>DPyro>Pyro

demon combo: sleep, stun , fow >sutra>sandstrom>MS>DPyro>GS

http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php <--- here u get the info about skills of all classes

Lyzzern - Lost City · July 2009

Seriously, stop QQing so much about Wizards. Every class has to get their skills, take a look at a cleric for instance. Really, you Wizard Wizard-Haters are really annoying q_q

Another reason why you can't play Mage unless you LOVE your class.

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