The reason people think wizards "suck"

WitchBurner - Sanctuary · June 2009

Again at Kristoph, these are not assumptions I'm making about other classes. I play all 6 classes as alts to 1. Make money, and 2. Mix it up a bit.

I've watched other classes grind, BM/Barb are melee and naturally recieve a lot of damage.

Archer's seem a little Gung-Ho making little use of their stuns, slows and pushback techniques(Not sure if this is due to build, technique cooldown, mp/chi restirctions or just bad playing).

Clerics lack good control skills and most seem to use heals during fighting, usually a sign of them taking damage.

Yes I have a problem with venomancer's, they use spam skills and have a moving self repairing shield. Only thing they're good for is developing ego and lowering TT mat prices.

Also, the general assumption of many BMs is that fists are only good for looking cool and duels, they have much lower Vit than other melee builds making them an easy target for any magic char/mobs.

Kristoph - Lost City · June 2009

Witchburner - Sanctuary wrote: »

Archer's seem a little Gung-Ho making little use of their stuns, slows and pushback techniques(Not sure if this is due to build, technique cooldown, mp/chi restirctions or just bad playing).

Clerics lack good control skills and most seem to use heals during fighting, usually a sign of them taking damage.

Yes I have a problem with venomancer's, they use spam skills and have a moving self repairing shield. Only thing they're good for is developing ego and lowering TT mat prices.

Also, the general assumption of many BMs is that fists are only good for looking cool and duels, they have much lower Vit than other melee builds making them an easy target for any magic char/mobs.

Play an archer yourself, you'll hardly get hit once you reach 3x. Clerics have a decent amount of control skills, but yes, they're roughly the same as wizards. And no, Fist BMs don't have less HP than others, it depends on the build. Either way they can kill one by one without using much, if any, pots.

Forp - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Witchburner - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also, the general assumption of many BMs is that fists are only good for looking cool and duels, they have much lower Vit than other melee builds making them an easy target for any magic char/mobs.

i watched a level 86 fist user rip the skin off of a 92 barb with 17k+ hp without even having his hiero tick.

fist user is the strongest warrior, but just like the mage, wont shine until end game. a properly geared fist user is the only warrior that can kill anyone not wearing light/heavy armour end-game.

WitchBurner - Sanctuary · June 2009

I'd heard that end-game fists become useless as Dex among physical classes becomes pretty much the same. End-game BMs from my-en have said that the only plus side is the increased attack rate.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Archers don't need to heal themselves, they have winged shell to absorb some damage and they simply don't get hit most of the time, make an archer yourself, you'll see.

It's not the way you tell. I train quite often with decent archers but they're not gods. Despite their high damage they DO miss hits and their evasion works only to run low FB and to PK barbs. Also magic mobs hit them harder than our class and ranged phys mobs hurt them much more than melee classes. We can actually aoe a group of melee mobs and keep pushing them with phoenix until they die. we can kill elemental mobs over 20 lvl higher than us and even solo some bosses. archers don't do that...

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

BMs and Barbs CAN AOE without a charm, it's called tree of protection and/or a cleric.

unfair comparison! genies are expensive to use. they can get even more expensive than HP+MP charms. and clerics are rarely avaiable...

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

And no, your MP bar only lasts long at low levels, at higher levels you easily need 1-2k MP for kill, which means it's empty in what, 5-8 kills?

I've got nearly 13k MP with wellspring and 2 items with MP recovery. I use sparks for the extra MP gain. Maybe it's just my build but I really feel my MP bar lasts long.

Phsyco - Lost City · June 2009

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've got nearly 13k MP with wellspring and 2 items with MP recovery. I use sparks for the extra MP gain. Maybe it's just my build but I really feel my MP bar lasts long.

I'd have to agree with Kristoph... and even with 13k mana that still probably only lasts you for about 5-8 kills.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i watched a level 86 fist user rip the skin off of a 92 barb with 17k+ hp without even having his hiero tick.

fist user is the strongest warrior, but just like the mage, wont shine until end game. a properly geared fist user is the only warrior that can kill anyone not wearing light/heavy armour end-game.

maybe you meant the opposite?
fist/claw build is actually worse against robe classes because you can't kill them with just a few skills. that build has much lower damage compared to axes...
even then archers, other bm builds and barbs get killed easily by such build because of high evasion, attack rate and chi.

Witchburner - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd heard that end-game fists become useless as Dex among physical classes becomes pretty much the same. End-game BMs from my-en have said that the only plus side is the increased attack rate.

very few blademasters use fists/claws so you can get highly refined weapons for really low prices. that changes the table a bit but in terms of skill damage/aoe nothing beats axes build. the big deal of that sort of weapon is that you hit 3 times faster than axe bm/barb so you always have more chi for ultimate or sutra and dexterity really helps for pvp. if you happen to miss an archer with regular hit that's nearly nothing but if an archer misses you a skill of gets interrupted, that's a lot.

Forp - Heavens Tear · June 2009

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

maybe you meant the opposite?
fist/claw build is actually worse against robe classes because you can't kill them with just a few skills. that build has much lower damage compared to axes...
even then archers, other bm builds and barbs get killed easily by such build because of high evasion, attack rate and chi.

lol? neither axe nor sword can kill me. dex spear can with a few lucky crits, but the otherwise, no.

fist, on the other hand, i can't tank. it hurts, and it hurts a lot. the low damage is made up with criticals, fast fast criticals. properly geared and they'll be hitting more than 3x a second with their 49 skill.

fist user is the best build of all 4 warriors end game. axe has to use ult to even do enough to tick my hiero.

Kristoph - Lost City · June 2009

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's not the way you tell. I train quite often with decent archers but they're not gods. Despite their high damage they DO miss hits and their evasion works only to run low FB and to PK barbs. Also magic mobs hit them harder than our class and ranged phys mobs hurt them much more than melee classes. We can actually aoe a group of melee mobs and keep pushing them with phoenix until they die. we can kill elemental mobs over 20 lvl higher than us and even solo some bosses. archers don't do that...

unfair comparison! genies are expensive to use. they can get even more expensive than HP+MP charms. and clerics are rarely avaiable...

I've got nearly 13k MP with wellspring and 2 items with MP recovery. I use sparks for the extra MP gain. Maybe it's just my build but I really feel my MP bar lasts long.

AOEing with phoenix is nothing but way to spend your time while bored. You don't keep agro for long enough, so the cooldown screws it over. If you miss even one target with phoenix it'll turn around and walk away. Killing elemental mobs 20 levels above you is a waste of time, so what if you can? Nobody cares, and honestly, an archer can probably do it too because they have more stuns/paralyzes and a damage absorb skill. And so what if they miss? Doesnt mean they get hit while grinding, per se. Might happen once in a while, but that's it.

lolno, genies are not expensive. Hell, tree of protection is only 200 stamina, which is like nothing, I'm used to spamming 600 stamina skills in pvp and I'm doing fine with my genie, doesn't cost much at all. And no, clerics aren't rarely available, go find a better guild with decent clerics or something.

Using wellspring is just a waste of time mostly, yes your MP bar lasts longer, but recovering it all takes just as long. Only difference is the 20% MP healed, but it's only enough for 1 extra kill. Woo.

And btw, just so you know, you can combine Axes with Fists. Fists as main weapon, Axe for Drake+Dragon. Yes it works. This vid has been posted before, but it shows it somewhat decently; http://zoome.jp/losstarot/diary/28/

Watch 1:30ish. Looks at the wizard's HP bar.

GANDOLFx - Heavens Tear · June 2009

ermm i dissagree... around lvl 80 a wizard is very PVP capable.... infact its a nuke in TW... for that reason people dont like wizards becuase A. they take a long time to level are are usless until lvl 80 and B. people in TW hate them becuase wizards can nuke someone in TW with 2 hits and bam... wizard wins...

Kristoph - Lost City · June 2009

GANDOLFx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ermm i dissagree... around lvl 80 a wizard is very PVP capable.... infact its a nuke in TW... for that reason people dont like wizards becuase A. they take a long time to level are are usless until lvl 80 and B. people in TW hate them becuase wizards can nuke someone in TW with 2 hits and bam... wizard wins...

lolno. You're wrong, you're low level and on heaven's tear.

Forp - Heavens Tear · June 2009

i'd say a mage is very capable of competeing in tw and holding his own in your average mass pk at 80. mage deals some heavy damage and has a moderate defense with a +3 3s set.

mage is, however, often targeted before priest. people see a mage as an easy target and it boost their e-peen getting an easy kill. gear that mage right and crush their spirit b:cute

Xenaaah - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Wizards don't suck! Venos named Lil Puppet suck! b:chuckle

WitchBurner - Sanctuary · June 2009

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

honestly, an archer can probably do it too because they have more stuns/paralyzes and a damage absorb skill.... And so what if they miss? Doesnt mean they get hit while grinding.

Wrong...

Anyone who's ever even fought a boss knows that stuns/seals/paralysis/sleep/pushbacks do not work on bosses and even some elite mobs.

Also archers complain about missing a lot.

I've also never seen a WC saying need Archer to help with ?????, but plenty for wizs to tank Mantavip and other magic bosses.

Treza - Lost City · June 2009

wizards simply dont suck, just because you cant win a duel doesnt mean you cant be a killer

Anemone - Harshlands · June 2009

Wizards don't really suck at anything. If anything, it's the player that sucks at knowing how to successfully do something on their wizard. While it's true that PvE can be a breeze with slow, knockback, force of will, and distance shrink.. that isn't all they can do. PvE is just far easier to master.

Wizards are given significant drawbacks, note that every class is, but what is their strength exactly? They're also given a very wide array of attack and status attack skills. Knowing which skill to use when, when to run, when to slow, when to undine, when to DS, when to sutra, when to FoW, when to use a weak skill and follow with a strong to bypass someone's charm, how to make the most of the build you chose, how to survive even with crappy gear, which skills to attack with on which target and so on and so forth makes ALL the difference.

Oh, and people who judge anything to do with PvP in duels aren't getting an accurate result because several things aren't taken into account like charms. To add to that, certain skills work in duels but not world PvP/TW. Furthermore, duels usually take place on the ground, but world PvP will often have you fighting in the air where your slows don't work but you have three dimensions to use to kite your enemies and keep that crucial distance.

tl;dr: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you should widen the scope of your research, experimentation, and experience with the class and its skills along with realistic situations before you assume something across the board like the "wizards suck at pvp" stereotype.

PS. Damage difference between wizard nukes and cleric nukes come into play a bit into 80+ when a wizard can two shot ultrafin supremes with sandstorm and stone rain and a typical cleric five shots with cylcone/plume. The DPS is not that different until it gets into lategame where people start refining their weapons to high +, and those with higher damage modifiers on their skills overpower those with less. That and most EPs are not full mag like most MGs. Even then, it depends on the target.

armyof1 · June 2009

Darkzero - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yea that's true i guess everyone looks at it at pvp but in pve we are good damage dealer depending on what build and skill u got

I dont know why people think that you just have to know how to duel. You cant stand in one spot. I have killed barbs and blademasters in pvp of comparable levels. Its not your char its the player that sucks lol
Duel your friend 20 times and see what works and dont. 1b:laugh So catch me if you can b:bye

Whiteleo - Lost City · June 2009

armyof1 wrote: »

I dont know why people think that you just have to know how to duel. You cant stand in one spot. I have killed barbs and blademasters in pvp of comparable levels. Its not your char its the player that sucks lol
Duel your friend 20 times and see what works and dont. 1b:laugh So catch me if you can b:bye

i assume that u are a skilled wizard (yes u can beat noob BM and barb) but u can't escape from skilled BM he can instant leap to u and stun lock u and eat you b:bye

Whiteleo - Lost City · June 2009

armyof1 wrote: »

I dont know why people think that you just have to know how to duel. You cant stand in one spot. I have killed barbs and blademasters in pvp of comparable levels. Its not your char its the player that sucks lol
Duel your friend 20 times and see what works and dont. So catch me if you can

you lie others and u lie yourself b:bye
wizard really suck.
other class no need to run and kill a mob while u are running around and using a lot strategy b:chuckle , what if they(other class) use some strategy = u surely b:bye
and wizard not support to make duel? and pvp?
if u can't win a duel, how u to kill a mob

Whiteleo - Lost City · June 2009

still think wizard doesn't suck?
answer only one Q

So how did you kill kun kun? b:laugh

Rinnve - Lost City · June 2009

Whiteleo - Lost City wrote: »

other class no need to run and kill a mob while u are running around and using a lot strategy

waitwut? are you really using some running around and even strategy while killing mobs? OMG YOU PHAIL.

Whiteleo - Lost City · June 2009

Rinnve - Lost City wrote: »

waitwut? are you really using some running around and even strategy while killing mobs? OMG YOU PHAIL.

u standing at one place and kill mob? duel?

Good job dude b:victory
u are super skillful wizard b:laugh

when to use what skill (FOW, ES etc) ,how to kite etc, these are strategy,
if u don't even know that u are the most PHAIL wizard i have ever seen b:bye

Kittennice - Heavens Tear · June 2009

I have started a wizard and they are amazing. They have very high magic attacks. They don't suck at all. I would love to play as a wizard as a secondary character.b:thanks

For the record I saw a wiz take down a TT 1-1 boss with that bramble thing. Talk about powerb:dirty. Sorry I forgot the name of the skill. b:surrender

Whiteleo - Lost City · June 2009

Kittennice - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have started a wizard and they are amazing. They have very high magic attacks. They don't suck at all. I would love to play as a wizard as a secondary character.b:thanks

For the record I saw a wiz take down a TT 1-1 boss with that bramble thing. Talk about powerb:dirty. Sorry I forgot the name of the skill. b:surrender

yes wizard not that suck, but
a bit more suck than any other class

Kittennice - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Whiteleo - Lost City wrote: »

yes wizard not that suck, but
a bit more suck than any other class

We'll see about that.b:pleased I'm gonna experiment with the wiz like I'm doing with my veno.b:shockedWell not making the wizard a tank but only less killableb:pleased

Rinnve - Lost City · June 2009

Whiteleo - Lost City wrote: »

when to use what skill (FOW, ES etc) ,how to kite etc, these are strategy,

Most mobs do not require any of those.

Whiteleo - Lost City wrote: »

yes wizard not that suck, but
a bit more suck than any other class

How many classes did you tried?

Pirodar - Sanctuary · June 2009

I have a cleric to store some items and I must admit the wizard would do this particular job equally well

I also have a veno to rest from my wizard and that's a job wizard wouldn't just suck at. Wizard can't do it regardless of my skill.

Whiteleo - Lost City · June 2009

Rinnve - Lost City wrote: »

Most mobs do not require any of those.

How many classes did you tried?

Most mobs do not require any of those = water mob? b:chuckle

How many classes did you tried? <== and u?

P.S- if 3 water mob attack you (same time and if u don't use pot) u surely die

Kristoph - Lost City · June 2009

Witchburner - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wrong...

Anyone who's ever even fought a boss knows that stuns/seals/paralysis/sleep/pushbacks do not work on bosses and even some elite mobs.

Also archers complain about missing a lot.

I've also never seen a WC saying need Archer to help with ?????, but plenty for wizs to tank Mantavip and other magic bosses.

Yeah, and? Archers are still better DDs for most bosses, and pretty much every HH run. And archers can tank mantavip too at 8x, so eh, yay. Besides, even if I can tank bosses, I don't want to and I hate doing it. If I wanted to tank bosses I'd have rolled a barb.

Whiteleo - Lost City wrote: »

P.S- if 3 water mob attack you (same time and if u don't use pot) u surely die

Uhm, I can tank 3 water mobs easily... they dont even do 200 damage per hit to me even though they're 3 levels higher. And they die in 3 hits, so... yeah.

Whiteleo - Lost City · June 2009

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Uhm, I can tank 3 water mobs easily... they dont even do 200 damage per hit to me even though they're 3 levels higher. And they die in 3 hits, so... yeah.

really? b:shocked
may i know your Stat points?
do u refine your armor? or always use 3* ?
are u LA or Pure?

seriously i can't tank 3 mob at the same time(without using pot)b:cry
PS- i use creepy armor, i can't effort 3* blah blah blah and can't refine b:sad

The reason people think wizards "suck"

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