The reason people think wizards "suck"

Rinnve - Lost City

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

I'm pretty sure our masteries do not get calculated AFTER our entire damage calculations are complete.

I'm pretty sure they are. I just leveled masteries from 0% to 10% in one step, average damage increased by ~10% as well.

Kristoph - Lost City

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As one of my favorite cartoons once told me; "Hostility is the calling card of a weak intellect."

Remember, don't judge us based on server. A hasty assumption like that automatically invalidates your argument. ~.^

Uhm, no, I'm just an **** because I can be. And I honestly don't have much pride when it comes to my class or whatever, so I could care less about bragging rights.

And no, I'm not really assuming much. See quote #3.

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

I do not believe you understand archers. (Or maybe you do not understand wizards? But, no, you are a wizard, so must be archers you do not understand.)

[Summary: Magic based masteries work differently from Physical ones]

Did I explain this well enough for you?

Anyways, archers are strong because of their attack rate, because of their high critical chances, and a few other such things. They have fairly reliable stuns and freezes. They have both physical and magical damage. They have some good defensive skills. They have good range. They are great for bosses not only because of their max health debuffs, but because even if they run out of mana they can still attack quite well. But their mastery damage bonus would be pitiful if not for their almost innate critical hit chance.

I didn't say the 60% mastery was better/whatever than our element masteries. I simply didn't understand why the one I quoted brought it up.

And exactly, so get yourself an archer with some decent gear, like -interval bracers and for example, a 69 slingshot over a 70 xbow, along with a full DEX build and some nice crit rings, there's no way a wizard will keep up with their damage output on certain elements. This can't be seen during grinding; an archer may crit 0 times on one mob, and multiple times on the next. I'm talking about bosses here where it's usually at least a few minutes of DDing. Add Sharpentooth and you'll see that Wizards have nothing on them on the majority of bosses.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

the first server i've played was LC. moved not because of ragequit but because my guild alliance moved from mu and my guild master insisted to play on HT. i followed them without thinking twice. the first thing i noticed when i moved is that archers are far less popular here in HT. in pvp servers people seem to believe archers are better, ignoring their weaknesses... not knowing their are ways to exploit them in a way they have no chance even being higher in level and more fortunate with equips.

It's still true that archers on PvP servers will generally have better gear than ones on PvE classes, like all classes. More competition means higher standards. A classmate of mine plays on Heaven's Tear, and when I see the average gear there, it's definately not equal to LC's standards.

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

Mk, fine, Kris. Everyone has their own personality and quirks. But still, you should at least try and respect others opinions and if they say that they like a class, or that they believe that Wizards are the best class ever (I do. ^_^), just let them have their own thoughts and be happy, y'know?

But really, if you're gonna respond to all of my quote, what do you think about the middle part? I'd like to hear how your adventures with your Wizard panned out. ^_^

Anemone - Harshlands

The wizard vs archer argument is a popular one, but isn't well-grounded at all. Sure, archers have a couple their perks.. but let's have a real comparison with a real player vs another real player. Yay more tl;dr! I grind, TT, boss, and PvP with an archer my level.. so here ya go.

He's got a bit over 2k unbuffed pdef, 4.5k HP, ~40 vit and deals around 2k-4k to ultrafin supremes noncrit. I have a bit over 2k unbuffed pdef without Stone Barrier, 3k unbuffed HP, 5 vit, and do around 8k-10k to them, again, noncrit. I have 7% crit, he has 16%. This is all assuming unbuffed. They deal ~400 to him, and ~200 to me. To be honest, after taking into account that both of us can avoid being hit more than once and kill roughly the same speed, I'd say the two are fairly even. We are both 82. His mdef is below 4k, and mine is 7k. For the record, I don't have undine.

On bosses, he has an advantage due to his bow having Gloom on it and it has much more time to activate consecutively when fighting a boss.. also, he can go afk DDing on a TT boss while auto attacking. A wizard can be every bit as much of a cheapass and use wellspring quaff and spark for MP, but they can't go afk. However, they can deal high DPS to anything other than a fire boss using phoenix->pyro->gush->pyro repeatedly. Higher than the sandstorm/stone rain combo for water mobs, unless of course you're fighting a water boss. So saying that it doesn't apply to non-water mobs is invalid.

When we're not at water mobs, my SB is usually up so in a way my defenses vs his HP is balanced as well. Our DPS is similar if gauged over a long period of time, but in a short period of time it is too reliant on luck with criticals/glooms and elemental properties to have a definitive answer.

To conclude, sharpentooth arrow does not count toward aggro. Real advantages that an EA has over a MG are things like a decent array of magical and physical attack skills and higher innate critical ratings. They can run faster on the ground, shoot faster, have skills like wings of grace to save their asses if they need it, and reliable stun. They also, like all physical classes, have a nice array of weapons with innate statuses on them.. which mages can never have.

I'm sure someone will come along and say that "oh, your damage is low for your level that's not an accurate answer" or "but archers can do ____" or "what about undine" or even "what about gloom", etc. My gear is extremely similar to the other player's, that's why I believe it to be about as accurate as it can be. The only major statistical differences are that I will never miss, phys classes will miss him more, he will crit more often, my base damage per hit is higher, and he has gloom. Beyond that, there are too many variations to consider. Even moreso with the new genie skills.

Kristoph - Lost City

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Mk, fine, Kris. Everyone has their own personality and quirks. But still, you should at least try and respect others opinions and if they say that they like a class, or that they believe that Wizards are the best class ever (I do. ^_^), just let them have their own thoughts and be happy, y'know?

But really, if you're gonna respond to all of my quote, what do you think about the middle part? I'd like to hear how your adventures with your Wizard panned out. ^_^

Sure, people can have their opinions, but if I see anything I consider wrong I'll try and correct it.


And I wouldn't know what to say about my own wizard. My level is low, my gear is average at best and I'm still working on skills/etc. I PvPed without a hiero till ~80, so I learned how to kite/survive well enough to be able to join in on wars with 9x, which is pretty much all the time right now since I'm in RageQuit. And grinding has always been pretty easy to me, since the previous game(s) I played was a grindfest. I level once every ~7-9 days at the moment, so I can't say it takes a lot of dedication/work.

Anemone - Harshlands wrote: »

I have 7% crit, he has 16%. This is all assuming unbuffed. They deal ~400 to him, and ~200 to me. To be honest, after taking into account that both of us can avoid being hit more than once and kill roughly the same speed, I'd say the two are fairly even. We are both 82. His mdef is below 4k, and mine is 7k. For the record, I don't have undine.

Just for the record, that is -very- low. My lv45 archer alt has 14% crit. At that level, getting up to 19-21% crit should not be hard.

EDIT: fixed that critrate estimate, didn't include the vit

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Sure, people can have their opinions, but if I see anything I consider wrong I'll try and correct it.


And I wouldn't know what to say about my own wizard. My level is low, my gear is average at best and I'm still working on skills/etc. I PvPed without a hiero till ~80, so I learned how to kite/survive well enough to be able to join in on wars with 9x, which is pretty much all the time right now since I'm in RageQuit. And grinding has always been pretty easy to me, since the previous game(s) I played was a grindfest. I level once every ~7-9 days at the moment, so I can't say it takes a lot of dedication/work.



Just for the record, that is -very- low. My lv45 archer alt has 14% crit. At that level, getting up to 19-21% crit should not be hard.

EDIT: fixed that critrate estimate, didn't include the vit

Ah, well, that doesn't sound bad at all! I mean, I'm still only 81, so, I mean, your level seems pretty high to me. And the fact that you've learned how to kite and survive...WITHOUT A CHARM, I might add, further proves the fact that you're an adept of the Wizard class!

I feel the same way about grinding in this game; I've played MMO's that were TOTAL grindfests. It's why I actually ENJOY a bit of grinding in this game. Finally, I say that I level at the same rate, just doin' Daily Quests, since I don't get much game time right now with all my classes. ^_^ To me, I'd say you're doin' just fine!

Jrudora - Lost City

Anemone - Harshlands wrote: »

He's got a bit over 2k unbuffed pdef, 4.5k HP, ~40 vit and deals around 2k-4k to ultrafin supremes noncrit. I have a bit over 2k unbuffed pdef without Stone Barrier, 3k unbuffed HP, 5 vit, and do around 8k-10k to them, again, noncrit. I have 7% crit, he has 16%. This is all assuming unbuffed. They deal ~400 to him, and ~200 to me. To be honest, after taking into account that both of us can avoid being hit more than once and kill roughly the same speed, I'd say the two are fairly even. We are both 82. His mdef is below 4k, and mine is 7k. For the record, I don't have undine.

As Kristoph said, this is an incredibly low crit % for an 8x archer.
Kinda unbelievable... 2k - 4k damage is pretty low too.
40 vit on an archer is a waste.
The archer forum should provide some details on how he can better.
However, yes... on water mobs we are incredible.
Stone rain and Sandstorm each deals about 13-15k damage without buffs at this point to water mobs, an incredible amount.

Anemone - Harshlands wrote: »

To conclude, sharpentooth arrow does not count toward aggro.

I'd like to stress on this point.
This is why archers are better than mages in an fb/tt run.
DD's job is to deal damage, hopefully to keep the aggro off them at the same time. Sharpentooth can do exactly that, it deals an incredible amount of damage without giving aggro to the archer. Arguably, its against everyone's favour since the depleted hp yields no exp, but this is only useful against bosses anyways.

Anemone - Harshlands wrote: »

Real advantages that an EA has over a MG are things like a decent array of magical and physical attack skills and higher innate critical ratings. They can run faster on the ground, shoot faster, have skills like wings of grace to save their asses if they need it, and reliable stun. They also, like all physical classes, have a nice array of weapons with innate statuses on them.. which mages can never have.

PVE wise, these don't matter much.
PVP wise, this becomes phenomenal.
Their shot rate interrupts our spells if we're on a one on one match with them. Their range is farther allowing them to land a stun shot before our force of wills. They have wingspan to save themselves from close ranged smarter mages who distance shrink near them. Lightning attacks do not suffer a range penalty. Archers also crit more, and coupled with a mage's low hp pool, only widens the gap further.

Luckily, if a mage manages to "ninja" their way beside an archer... its nice to know that a well placed undine + extreme poison + sage/demon stone rain is able to one shot quite a large population of archers.

Anyhow, mages after 90 are incredibly competent.
I love my mage right now

Anemone - Harshlands

Aye, I know his stats aren't exemplary, but I used him as an example because of gear similarities. Keeping in mind ultrafins are 88 and we are 82, also, so there is a damage reduction at work. A lot of EAs in HL have 30-50 vit that they plan to get rid of at 90 as well; it's kind of hard to find one with the same defensive properties as me with the same level of gems etc that is full dex atm.

I agree wholeheartedly on Sharpentooth. I just think it's moronic when people argue that it contributes to aggro as well as total damage dealt. It's ONLY the latter, and that's WHY it's such a good skill to have. Especially in higher leveled TTs. It IS an advantage at bosses, but not for the reason I keep seeing people argue for.

My entire post was centered around the DPS running similar, where in the long run neither really takes the lead without luck -- gloom and undine are another story though. All the true advantages I listed at the bottom are the reasons you see so many more of them in the PvP servers compared to the PvE ones.

Haiz - Lost City

QQ I hate mages I still don't do enough damage.

Just for the record, when the 30% increase in crit rate on sage ice dragon works, that 30% is applied to the ice dragon as well as spells after. I suppose combined with 10% normal crit rate I basically crit everything with it.

Archers will always be more useful because of sharptooth. DPS wise if you don't include sharptooth though a mage can win if you use the right spell combination. Sadly its not as easy as an archer where you just afk and attack. Like already what people have said, gush/pyro is the combination to DPS faster than an archer. I QQ too because you can't macro gush/pyro so instead I use crappy DPS macros but I could care less because I don't have to push anything.

HI HAIKU.b:bye

Pirodar - Sanctuary

Please don't take it as a flame bait, the question is serious.

How do venos compare to wizards and archers DPSwise? I mean venos + pets pairs of course and let's leave legendary pets aside.

I had to rest from my wizard for a bit, so I started a venomancer. It's lvl 36 now so the experience may change dramatically yet, but from what I can see so far, combined with my scorpion we outdamage my wizard form his 36's by a large margin. The veno is pure int now, which may have to change soon and I have no idea about what a fox form can do DPS wise.

When my wizard was around 60 I had an opportunity to watch venos killing ultrafins with their turtles and it wasn't impressive, but water mobs are wizard's speciality and turtles are slow, and don't do much damage. In case of other mobs I expect to see a different picture.

I'm curious how high level veno with let's say a scorpion would compare to so called DD classes in case of some melee boss, assuming the per isn't tanking and doesn't have to be healed constantly, just like a wizard or an archer wouldn't be tanking. And I'm not talking about a TT boss here, where pets do full damage unlike players.

Amour - Lost City

Frick haiz.
I can't wait to be 99. Mages are such an awesome class :>

Anemone - Harshlands

Haiz - Lost City wrote: »

QQ I hate mages I still don't do enough damage.

Just for the record, when the 30% increase in crit rate on sage ice dragon works, that 30% is applied to the ice dragon as well as spells after. I suppose combined with 10% normal crit rate I basically crit everything with it.

Archers will always be more useful because of sharptooth. DPS wise if you don't include sharptooth though a mage can win if you use the right spell combination. Sadly its not as easy as an archer where you just afk and attack. Like already what people have said, gush/pyro is the combination to DPS faster than an archer. I QQ too because you can't macro gush/pyro so instead I use crappy DPS macros but I could care less because I don't have to push anything.

HI HAIKU.b:bye

AMEN TO THE BOLD. Though if you're a **** and don't like to go afk at boring TT bosses and the like, you can spark your **** off for MP with wellspring up and fight for free like EAs do. It's just a little more tedious.

Oh and sage dragon is love. Though how hard is it to farm the book? Want. It should be even more ridiculous now in a sutra combo combined with frenzy... x_x

HI HAIZ HAO R Ub:bye I got my stupid Yaksa this time around. >: Wtb closer look at that weapon you has.

Kristoph - Lost City

Anemone - Harshlands wrote: »

Oh and sage dragon is love. Though how hard is it to farm the book? Want. It should be even more ridiculous now in a sutra combo combined with frenzy... x_x

Like 30 pages from completing Cube for a chance to get a 49/59 skill. So good luck, or try buying it off someone who has a double.

Anemone - Harshlands

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Like 30 pages from completing Cube for a chance to get a 49/59 skill. So good luck, or try buying it off someone who has a double.

Figured.

fk 10 chars

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

30% crit, possibly a wizard can have more crit than a archer for 10 seconds

Amour - Lost City

Any of the 59 ults are amazing to get, obviously dragon is the best... I'm also looking forward to force of will and glacial snare, for the damage boost.

blademaster661

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Uh no. Veno's have it easier, Archers have it easier, BMs/Barbs can AOE, clerics can party with BMs or grind like a wizard can. Wizards have no advantage when it comes to grinding. It's either slower or more expensive because of MP costs.

dude we got our WATER SHIELDS and we get more exp with grinding then other classes and we have to work are way to being good its not there the whole way like others

Kalza - Sanctuary

A la wizzy critted 11k on me today b:surrender

WitchBurner - Sanctuary

lol I'm guessing Ayano-Chan got you?

She killed me in DT before first time I ever saw Undine strike up close.

Alithyra - Harshlands

Kalza - Sanctuary wrote: »

A la wizzy critted 11k on me today b:surrender

:O amazingb:heart

Anemone - Harshlands

blademaster661 wrote: »

dude we got our WATER SHIELDS and we get more exp with grinding then other classes and we have to work are way to being good its not there the whole way like others

You can't always find a good water mob to grind on, tbh. If you're talking about the MP regen from water shield btw and not the magic defense, the 10 MP per second gets nerfed to 2.5 per second in combat mode, which isn't even enough to look nice compared to our innate regen that both venos/clerics have.

Also, the exp gotten at those mobs isn't any better than the other ranged classes. There is always a party alternative for faster exp like bfly parties vs maids solo, and then when you go to fish at 8x everyone gets roughly the same exp/hour (not necessary percent, due to level differences).