Pets, numbers, and sorting. Answer to the eternal "What's the best pet?" question !
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Succubae - Dreamweaver
Posts: 53 Arc User
Pet ranking using stats and maths
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What's the best magical def pet ? Is it better to have high armor or high HP ? What are the fastest pets ?
All (well, almost) your questions about numbers answered now !
I created a spreadsheet (thank you Openoffice) listing most pets you can tame in the game, their growing charts and their base stats. I included the growing formulas, so that it's possible to have pet stats at any level. (I couldn't do that with the Patk, because no one found the exact formula yet. And believe me, I tried.)
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Now, how do I use it ?
Well, it's time for you to find the sort option. You can sort by anything you want, but you should try :
- Overall Def Score (this one includes dodge even if it's experimental)
- Pdef Score (the one with dodge is still experimental)
- Mdef score
- Dps at lvl 90 with Bash
- Moving speed
The score thing is explained later.
You can change the level considered on the second sheet (labelled config) in B1. Pay attention, the stats will be right only for pets which have a tame level lower than the level you choose. Don't check Magmite stats at level 5...
There are holes in my data : this concerns mostly pets with red names. Do not blindly take numbers as they are, for example a moving speed of 0.8 doen't mean that the pet is very slow, but it means that I don't have the moving speed when tamed. Also there can be roundoff errors, but that's not really a problem because the difference won't be noticeable ingame.
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Now, what about this 'score' thing ?
The def score takes into account both HP and armor. The base idea is simple : what would be the equivalent HP if the pet has no armor, but with the same survivability ?
Let's say a pet has a Mdef which reduce the damage taken by 50% and 1000 HP. It would be as strong if he has 0 armor but twice the HP, 2000 (well, not for your heal...). 75% reduction and 1000 HP is the same thing as having 4000 HP, and so on.
Another way of thinking about it would be :
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »"If the pet starts at full hp and I don't heal it, how long could it live against a mob doing a constant amount of damage to it every second?"
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So where's your magical table ?
Here it is !
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You document is too big, I'm lost. Can you resume it ?
Okay, here are some top tens in decreasing order. Only for land, non-ranged pets. And only the lower tame level of the family. And at level 90.
Top 10 overall def :
Baby Hercules
Shaodu Cub
Armored Bear
Astral Beetle (Hept-, Pent-, Quadr-)
Crystalline Magmite
Qingfu (Emerald, Jaden, Verdant)
Tuskmoor (Plainswalker, Riverside, Doft)
Tauroc (Angler, Logger, Stevedore)
Rhinodrake (Billabong, Boondock, Plainswalker)
Frogling
Top 10 Pdef (without dodge as it's still experimental) :
Baby Hercules
Crystalline Magmite
Armored Bear
Shaodu Cub
Qingfu (Emerald, Jaden, Verdant)
Astral Beetle (Hept-, Pent-, Quadr-)
Tauroc (Angler, Logger, Stevedore)
Tuskmoor (Plainswalker, Riverside, Doft)
Minkii (Mongoose, Redtail, Sable)
Overclocked Mechrab
Top 10 Mdef :
Baby Hercules
Armored Bear
Shaodu Cub
Frogling
Astral Beetle (Hept-, Pent-, Quadr-)
Rhinodrake (Billabong, Boondock, Plainswalker)
Tuskmoor (Plainswalker, Riverside, Doft)
Carapest Terror
Qingfu (Emerald, Jaden, Verdant)
Guardian Wolf
Top 10 Dps, including Bash lvl 5 (Be warned, I don't have all the numbers ! The last one don't have a high attack) :
Baby Hercules
Scorpion (Pollen, Pup, Varicose)
Crystalline Magmite
Antelope Pup
Nine Tail Foxie
Bloodthirsty Adalwolf
Kowlin
Cuddly Pup
Qingfu (Emerald, Jaden, Verdant)
Frogling
Top 11 ('cause there are ex aequo) Moving speed (Hey, where's the Hercule ? The baby is too fat, he's only 13th) :
Kowlin
Nine Tail Foxie
Cuddly Pup
Petalii Hexkiss
Clever Cactopod
Steelhide Grimalkin
Huggy Hare
Armored Bear
Tabby Plumdrop
Mastiff of the Great Divide
Guardian Wolf
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This is too simple, I simply don't believe it. So, where's the trick ?
There's no trick, but there are limitations, of course.
- The HP recovery has not been taken into account, because 1) I don't see how to do it and 2) No one has the numbers.
- Actually, lots of def is better than lots of HP, because it has the same survivability and you can heal faster, thus saving mana and time. If your heal is 500 and you pet has 1000 HP and 75% damage reduction, you'll need 2 heals, while with 4000 HP and no amor, you'll need 8 heals... But I don't see how to include it in the sheet. You can have some clues by sorting by HP.
- Hit rate (not hit speed) has not been taken into account, because it strongly depends on the opponent. But it has an effect for sure.
What are all these formulas you're using ? Did you find them yourself ?
I found almost all of them, yes. I saw on some sites that some of them where found by others too, so they shouldn't be too bad! ;-)
Now, here they are :
Score :
- PSurvivabilityScore = HP / ( 1 - %ReducFromPdef ) / ( 1 - %Evade )
%ReducFromPdef is the percent damage reduction from pet's armor (see later for the formula). Actually it's a ratio, between 0 and 1.
(1-%ReducFromPdef) is the ratio of the damage the pet actually receives.
HP / ( 1 - %ReducFromPdef ) is the equivalent HP the pet would have if it had no armor and the same survivability.
As I stated before : Let's say a pet has a Pdef which reduce the damage taken by 50% and 1000 HP. It would be as strong if he has 0 armor but twice the HP, 2000 (well, not for your heal...). 75% reduction and 1000 HP is the same thing as having 4000 HP, and so on.
Same goes for evasion.
- MSurvivabilityScore = HP / ( 1 - %ReducFromMdef )
Same here as Pdef, but without evasion. I guess that's why the average Mdef is higher than Pdef: you don't evade magic. Of course, 'cause it's magic!
- SurvivabilityScore = ( PSurvivabilityScore + MsurvivabilityScore ) /2
The mean, simply.
%Reduction:
- %ReducFromPdef = Pdef / ( Pdef + 40 * Lvl )
- %ReducFromMdef = Mdef / ( Mdef + 40 * Lvl )
- %Evade = Evasion / (Evasion + 40 * Lvl ) / 2 (?) seems to work, if anyone can confirm...
Dps:
- Dps = Patk * HitSpeed + BashDps
- BashDps step by step:
BashDps = %BashDamage * Patk * BashInterval
BashDps = %BashDamage * Patk * HitSpeed / Bash#HitInterval
BashDps = %BashDamage * Patk * HitSpeed / ceil( BashCooldown * HitSpeed )
GrowthChart: (by level)
- HPInc = 20 + 2.5*pts
- P/MdefInc = (160 + 20*pts) / 3 = 53.33 + 6.67*pts
- HitInc = (40 + 5*pts) / 3 = 13.33 + 1.67*pts
- EvasionInc = (80 + 10*pts)/9 = 8.89 + 1.11*pts
- Speed = +0.1 at each lvl x0
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On which web sites did you find all these informations ?
- http://snowbloom.110mb.com/pi.htm
Screenshots, growth charts and locations of all pets lvl 1 -> 60+
- http://perfectworld.clanfree.net/familiergraphique.htm
http://perfectworld.clanfree.net/pet1a10.htm
http://perfectworld.clanfree.net/compapet.htm
Growth charts numeric values, starting stats, screenshots, comparisons (in French)
- http://kanbisekai.wikiwiki.jp/
Like the previous site, but more accurate and more complete. (in Japanese)
I used http://74.125.39.132/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&langpair=ja|en&u=http://kanbisekai.wikiwiki.jp/%3F%25CD%25C5%25C0%25BA%25CD%25D1%25A5%25DA%25A5%25C3%25A5%25C8&usg=ALkJrhhV4jGky5Yhxc77L6xKXNnBMyikfg
and Yahoo Translate to understand it.
- http://www.ecatomb.net/petstat.php
Pet stats at 90 (seems to come from the japanese or french site, but with PWI names)
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What pet do you personnaly use ?
I used a Sable Minkii for a long time, then I changed server and wanted to try something else. It was fast, rather good defense, average attack, and a funny animation when hitting.
I currently use a Pentastral Beetle which has lots of HP and defense, and its color fits well with the fox form I use. I just tamed a red Weeping Scorpion Queen as a dps pet, but I still have to try it.
Yes, I tried the Magmite. And hated it : 1) everyone has it (that was before Herc existed), 2) too big, I couldn't clic on mobs, 3) too damn slow ! And 4) everyone already had it.
I had a very cute Snow Hare (don't you think its noise is like one of a camera? It makes me want to take screenshots ;-) ) but I didn't find it very useful, apart in towns...
For an air pet I used both a Petite Sawfly ('cause I'm French) and a Pinnaer Foxwing ('cause I use fox form), but as there's not much air quests, I can't tell a lot about them...
I'm planning on trying an Antelope Pup, because it's cute and has a strong attack. An Eldergoth Marksmann one day, maybe...
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You bloody idiot, you made a stupid mistake over there ! Do you think I wouldn't see it ?
Oops, sorry, I'll try to correct it fast... Just tell me where and what !
By the way, constructive comments are appreciated ! Thanks.
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Edit: Some more explanations about the formulas. Thanks Solandri !
Edit: Correction of the confusion between Patk and Dps. Thanks Obsessed !
Post edited by Succubae - Dreamweaver on
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Comments
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bump for great justice! (this is how you let others know its done lol)0
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Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »bump for great justice! (this is how you let others know its done lol)
b:laugh
Thanks !0 -
Well done! Thank you. b:thanks
n of course; BUMP!0 -
Good job *thumbs up*
I am not that sure about Baby Hercules being on the top of Patk.
And doesn't Antelope Pup have better Mdef than Guardian Wolf? True, Antelope has bit less HP (2447vs2625), but it's Mdef is much better than wolf's (8662vs7944). It just makes me hard to believe it...0 -
You're right about antelope, i had found it odd myself that Shadou Cub was listed as having better overall defense than Armored Bear... should be a couple of glitches it should be easy to fix. Also, Oddfoot pup is missing on that list. And Petite Sawfly is missing on physical attack, i'm not sure about Clever Cactopod amongst the fastest pets.
Edit; I think we may be finding some things as odd being more used to dealing with raw numbers (as in Ecatomb) although some revision is definitively in order. Terrific job none the less, and i still think this should be stickied.0 -
Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »Good job *thumbs up*
I am not that sure about Baby Hercules being on the top of Patk.
And doesn't Antelope Pup have better Mdef than Guardian Wolf? True, Antelope has bit less HP (2447vs2625), but it's Mdef is much better than wolf's (8662vs7944). It just makes me hard to believe it...
Well, Hercules has a hit speed of 0.8 while the scorpic's one is 0.6. So looking at dps, it's a little bit higher. But if you look at the numbers they're not far: 2443 dps for Herc and 2402 for Scorpion. (Talking about land pets only)
About Mdef an HP, that was the point of the sheet : to know the influence of each stat. Again the scores are not very far : 8414 vs 8335. Check the numbers and the formulas if you don't believe it!
Edit: 8662 Mdef make 65.4% damage reduction, and 7944 makes 63.8% damage reduction. Even if there's a big difference in Mdef, the actual damage reduction is not that great.
That's because I included dodge in the Def Score. But without dodge you're right, they both have the same HP and the Shaodu Cub has a bit less defense. I'll detail this in the guide, thanks.Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary wrote: »You're right about antelope, i had found it odd myself that Shadou Cub was listed as having better overall defense than Armored Bear... should be a couple of glitches it should be easy to fix. Also, Oddfoot pup is missing on that list. And Petite Sawfly is missing on physical attack, i'm not sure about Clever Cactopod amongst the fastest pets.
Edit: Oddfoot Pup is right after Guardian Wolf, ath the 11th place. It's because he has little less HP.
Scores differences are quite small actually.
The Petite Sawfly is not a land pet, as far as I know...
Clever Cactopod is not the same family as the others cactopods, and h'es high level; that's why it's speed is so different.0 -
Thanx for the speedy response, it's good to see your work stands up to scrutiny. And thanx again for sharing this with us, i'm really impressed and grateful about not having to do so much guess work anymore.0
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That might be something to do with those formulas.
MSurvivabilityScore = HP / ( 1 - %ReducFromMdef )
%ReducFromMdef = Mdef / ( Mdef + 40 * Lvl )
so
MSurvivabilityScore = HP / ( 1 - (Mdef / ( Mdef + 40 * Lvl )))
For Antelope Pup:
2447/(1-(8662/(8662+40*90)))=2447/(1-(8662/12262))=2447/0.294=8323
For Guardian Wolf:
2625/(1-(7944/(7944+40*90)))=2625/(1-(7944/11544))=2625/0.312=8413
For Prickly Oddfoot Pup:
2518/(1-(8327/(8327+40*90)))=2518/(1-(8327/11927))=2518/0.302=8337
Basing on formulas, you are right. But maybe you should explain them better too? Honestly, I don't quite understand them that well... with better explaining there should be less questions "why?"0 -
/Applaud
Nice to see someone sum up all this up.
Someone just needs to sit with a stopwatch and see how many hp the different pets regenerate in, say, 100 seconds.Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »There's no trick, but there are limitations, of course.
- The HP recovery has not been taken into account, because 1) I don't see how to do it and 2) No one has the numbers.
That would be a straight ranking by def.- Actually, lots of def is better than lots of HP, because it has the same survivability and you can heal faster, thus saving mana and time. If your heal is 500 and you pet has 1000 HP and 75% damage reduction, you'll need 2 heals, while with 4000 HP and no amor, you'll need 8 heals... But I don't see how to include it in the sheet.
Someone needs to take a random sampling of mobs from pwdatabase and figure out an median (50th percentile) accuracy and 10th and 90th percentile accuracies. Assume most people are interested in fighting mobs of the same level. Then run your numbers for those three cases. Maybe add a 4th case for level 150 mobs, to account for the TT bosses.- Hit rate (not hit speed) has not been taken into account, because it strongly depends on the opponent. But it has an effect for sure.
The survivability score Succubae came up with is basically "If the pet starts at full hp and I don't heal it, how long could it live against a mob doing a constant amount of damage to it every second?"Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »Basing on formulas, you are right. But maybe you should explain them better too? Honestly, I don't quite understand them that well... with better explaining there should be less questions "why?"
Basically, it boils down to the same question as someone wondering if they should add hp shards or pdef shards. Without shards, the person has 2447 hp and 7944 mdef.
If the person added 718 mdef, that would give him the same stats as the antelope pup. How much longer could he survive without heals?
If the person added 178 hp, that would give him the same stats as the guardian wolf. How much longer could he survive without heals?
The answer for those numbers and the no-heal scenario turns out to be that +178 hp helps more than +718 mdef.0 -
This deserves a sticky so gave you one.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Well first of all thanks for the sticky, I somehow hoped it but not so fast!Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »That might be something to do with those formulas.
MSurvivabilityScore = HP / ( 1 - %ReducFromMdef )
%ReducFromMdef = Mdef / ( Mdef + 40 * Lvl )
so
MSurvivabilityScore = HP / ( 1 - (Mdef / ( Mdef + 40 * Lvl )))
For Antelope Pup:
2447/(1-(8662/(8662+40*90)))=2447/(1-(8662/12262))=2447/0.294=8323
For Guardian Wolf:
2625/(1-(7944/(7944+40*90)))=2625/(1-(7944/11544))=2625/0.312=8413
For Prickly Oddfoot Pup:
2518/(1-(8327/(8327+40*90)))=2518/(1-(8327/11927))=2518/0.302=8337
Basing on formulas, you are right. But maybe you should explain them better too? Honestly, I don't quite understand them that well... with better explaining there should be less questions "why?"
I already explained it a bit, but I see it was not precise enough. Solandri has it right, I'll update the text with his comments.
Yeah, sure, but you have to do it for all pets at different level, then find the formula to compute the HP regen at each level, then find the base regen for each pet... Of course that vould be grat, but I don't want to spend so much time on it. All I did was only using numbers found on the net, almost nothing from the game itself (well, I had to check some, of course).Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Someone just needs to sit with a stopwatch and see how many hp the different pets regenerate in, say, 100 seconds.
Besides I don't think it's very important, it's more like a bonus. If your pet is low in HP you'll heal it anyway, no matter it's HP regen.
Of course, but I meant to adapt the score with the amount of hp, like a "survivability score", including def score and "healability". I'm not sure whether that would be useful or pertinent.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »That would be a straight ranking by def.
I already assume that people fight mobs of the same level for def. The problem is knowing the %hit from accuracy, and this strongly depends on the opponent. You can try it by selecting random mobs at your level: %evade doesn't change, but %hit changes a lot. Sure, doing a median % for many accuracy values is the solution, but again it would take so much time... Let's say it's the next step!Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Someone needs to take a random sampling of mobs from pwdatabase and figure out an median (50th percentile) accuracy and 10th and 90th percentile accuracies. Assume most people are interested in fighting mobs of the same level. Then run your numbers for those three cases. Maybe add a 4th case for level 150 mobs, to account for the TT bosses.
I'll copy-paste that, I think! Thanks!Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »The survivability score Succubae came up with is basically "If the pet starts at full hp and I don't heal it, how long could it live against a mob doing a constant amount of damage to it every second?"
Yep, the same formulas can be used for gear too. I started to use it, but I'm too low level so it doesn't have a huge impact yet.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Basically, it boils down to the same question as someone wondering if they should add hp shards or pdef shards. Without shards, the person has 2447 hp and 7944 mdef.
If the person added 718 mdef, that would give him the same stats as the antelope pup. How much longer could he survive without heals?
If the person added 178 hp, that would give him the same stats as the guardian wolf. How much longer could he survive without heals?
The answer for those numbers and the no-heal scenario turns out to be that +178 hp helps more than +718 mdef.
With your work on pet skills and aggro, it would be possible to find a kind of "dps cap" under which the pet keeps aggro. That could help knowing how much you have to put in MAG and VIT.
Edit:
This made me think : is this a ranged pet? Because I wrote that the top 10 is only about land and non-ranged pets... (You have the other pets in the spreadsheet anyway)Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary wrote: »i'm not sure about Clever Cactopod amongst the fastest pets.0 -
Missing quite a few pets.
Top 10 Patk is missleading, perhaps should rename to dps.0 -
I guess you're not speaking about the top 10...Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Missing quite a few pets.
I should have at least every lower pet of each family, plus lots of others. I have 175 different pets already (not counting different skins or name for the same pet). Feel free to give me the names (and maybe stats) of these missing pets, or a website where I can find them. I'm only level 28 now, so I can't check high level pets.
Do you have example(s) of missing pets?
You're right, I'm doing it right now. Thanks!Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Top 10 Patk is missleading, perhaps should rename to dps.0 -
Well you're missing phoenix, which would probably be at the top of all categories.
Also I think some 90+ pets might be faster in speed. Shieldbearer/Glacial seed... (At school cant check stats this minute.)
Also I think maybe you should list by straight ATK, for pvp pets, where dps doesnt matter nearly as much.
Also for DPS, did you factor bash casting/delay time, if so what did you use for a value. Secondly, Flesh ream has higher DPS then bash.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Well you're missing phoenix, which would probably be at the top of all categories.
Either you didn't read well, or I didn't made it clear enough.
The top tens are for land and non-ranged pet only. The phoenix is an air pet.
If you want to see all the pets, download the spreadsheet, that's what it's for. This is the red link in the first post. You have (almost) all pets, air, water, land, ranged, even some that don't exist in this version.
Concerning the Phoenix, it has the best speed and the best attack, but not the best def because Hercules has insane HP.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Also I think some 90+ pets might be faster in speed. Shieldbearer/Glacial seed... (At school cant check stats this minute.)
Sure. But I don't know them. Once again if you have a list of names and stats, I'll add them.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Also I think maybe you should list by straight ATK, for pvp pets, where dps doesnt matter nearly as much.
You can do this by using the spreadsheet. You can sort the pets by whatever you want, including straight attack.
I don't see why you'd look at atk rather than dps for pvp. The point is that you want to kill as fast as possible, right? Or maybe your pet can 1-shot people...Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Also for DPS, did you factor bash casting/delay time, if so what did you use for a value. Secondly, Flesh ream has higher DPS than bash.
No, I didn't use casting/delay time, because assumed that it was like a normal hit, but I can be wrong. Please tell me if you have more precise information.
I used only bash because it seemed more common, at least for PVE. I may add Flesh ream too, if you ask it kindly! ;-)
Actually I didn't bothered much, because I lack a lot of info about attack. I only have like 25 exact numbers, for the most commons pets.0 -
Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »Either you didn't read well, or I didn't made it clear enough.
The top tens are for land and non-ranged pet only. The phoenix is an air pet.
If you want to see all the pets, download the spreadsheet, that's what it's for. This is the red link in the first post. You have (almost) all pets, air, water, land, ranged, even some that don't exist in this version.
Concerning the Phoenix, it has the best speed and the best attack, but not the best def because Hercules has insane HP.
Sorry yes, my fault.Sure. But I don't know them. Once again if you have a list of names and stats, I'll add them.
Lvl 91 Glacial seed
HP: 2307
Attack: 1391
Pdef: 6521
Mdef: 7608
Accur: 1817
Evade: 1118
Atkspd: 0.8/s----Speed: 8.8
I think it would fit in the top 10 speed anyways. Second look at shieldbearer and it would suck in all categories lol.You can do this by using the spreadsheet. You can sort the pets by whatever you want, including straight attack.
I don't see why you'd look at atk rather than dps for pvp. The point is that you want to kill as fast as possible, right? Or maybe your pet can 1-shot people...
Sorry I dont have spreadsheet software. Also for pvp Spike damage is more important(to break through charms), which is essentially the pets skill damage. Specially if you combine with Flesh Ream. Scorpion > Herc for ground pvp by quite a lot.No, I didn't use casting/delay time, because assumed that it was like a normal hit, but I can be wrong. Please tell me if you have more precise information.
I used only bash because it seemed more common, at least for PVE. I may add Flesh ream too, if you ask it kindly! ;-)
Actually I didn't bothered much, because I lack a lot of info about attack. I only have like 25 exact numbers, for the most commons pets.
I dont know the exact value for channeling/delay in attack speed for skills,(I'd like to know for sure, what why I asked if you were using one) but there definatly is one. It's -very- noticable with phoenix's 1.0/s atk speed.
Heh, I didnt mean you actually needed to do any of it.. was just throwing out some ideas.0 -
Thanks, I'll add it to the sheet.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Lvl 91 Glacial seed
HP: 2307
Attack: 1391
Pdef: 6521
Mdef: 7608
Accur: 1817
Evade: 1118
Atkspd: 0.8/s----Speed: 8.8
I think it would fit in the top 10 speed anyways. Second look at shieldbearer and it would suck in all categories lol.
It has the same speed as the Clever Cactopod, but my top 10 is at level 90, so I can't add it in!
If you can't look at the spreadsheet, you're loosing the greatest interest of my work. Seriously. You can freely download Openoffice, but I guess you're not on your personnal computer. (Go back to work, then! :-p )Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Sorry I dont have spreadsheet software. Also for pvp Spike damage is more important(to break through charms), which is essentially the pets skill damage. Specially if you combine with Flesh Ream. Scorpion > Herc for ground pvp by quite a lot.
I don't agree with you about skill damage. Of course it's important, but the overall dps is the reprensentative number you should look at. I can compute a dps including the Fresh Ream "bug". To break through charm, you have 10 seconds between ticks, right? Then you have to do max damage in these 10 seconds, not once.
So what you're looking for is dps including the skills you use.
Scorpion would be superior to Herc because It has usually more attack skills while the Herc has def skills. Try to put Bash, Flesh Ream and whatever you want that deals damage on a Herc to check! (I know no one will, because he'd lost its special skills.)
I remember someone (was it you?) talking about that in some thread. That's one more thing to find out by slow boring measurement.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »I dont know the exact value for channeling/delay in attack speed for skills,(I'd like to know for sure, what why I asked if you were using one) but there definatly is one. It's -very- noticable with phoenix's 1.0/s atk speed.
Anyway Phoenix IS the best pet for pvp, my calculations won't change that.
Thantks for the idea, then!Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Heh, I didnt mean you actually needed to do any of it.. was just throwing out some ideas.
I'm trying to make this as precise as I can, so I might add this in the future.
You know, I was doing all this for me, and I decided to share it both to be useful to others and to improve it.
Anyway that will have to wait a bit, I'm on holiday next week, without internet...0 -
Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »I don't agree with you about skill damage. Of course it's important, but the overall dps is the reprensentative number you should look at. I can compute a dps including the Fresh Ream "bug". To break through charm, you have 10 seconds between ticks, right? Then you have to do max damage in these 10 seconds, not once.
So what you're looking for is dps including the skills you use.
Scorpion would be superior to Herc because It has usually more attack skills while the Herc has def skills. Try to put Bash, Flesh Ream and whatever you want that deals damage on a Herc to check! (I know no one will, because he'd lost its special skills.)
Scorpion only comes with bash. DPS only shines through in long periods of time, 10 seconds isnt long enough for dps to get full benefit, and in tern be a factor in pvp.
Charms tick at 50%, steady damage(dps) would make it tick in nearly the same spot every time, Spike damage will push you through it, in spikes, making you more likely to break through it.
With Flesh reams pvp damage not being reduced, the higher the attack the better, since that's the most damaging part of the pet, the skill. I have a lvl 92 herc, and 92 scorpion, and people are 100x more scared of the scorpion when I'm in secret passage. Specially after you factor in kiting and knockback, the only pet hits that matter in pvp are the skills(in particular Flesh ream).
Not factoring Flesh Ream, I'd be more inclined to favor your opinion, but even so I'd still rather have more damage from skills then from normal attacks(which is where hercs main dps comes from). Not to mention the dps of herc and scorpion in 10 seconds is only a negligable difference, high spiking skills would be more beneficial, and IS more beneficial from personal experiences.I remember someone (was it you?) talking about that in some thread. That's one more thing to find out by slow boring measurement.
Anyway Phoenix IS the best pet for pvp, my calculations won't change that.
Phoenix wasnt really the point of my saying that, was just an example of where skill casting time is easily noticable. Depending how it factors(and for that mater how normal attacks start back up after a skill is fired) could signifigantly change some dps values, and from personal experience it favors slower attacking pets moreso. Would be fun to know, but as you noted would take long boring testing.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Scorpion only comes with bash. DPS only shines through in long periods of time, 10 seconds isnt long enough for dps to get full benefit, and in tern be a factor in pvp.
Charms tick at 50%, steady damage(dps) would make it tick in nearly the same spot every time, Spike damage will push you through it, in spikes, making you more likely to break through it.
That's probably a good way to come up with a "best at PvP' ranking. What's the maximum amount of PvP damage the pet can do in 10 seconds, factoring in Flesh Ream, Bash, and whatever other skills PvPers like to use (probably the elemental attacks work as well). In fact, a L90 scorp with 3336 atk can be loaded up with a bunch of attack skills, while a L90 phoenix with 4096 atk would only have Flesh Ream, maybe Flesh Ream + Bash.
Phoenix (1.0 attack/sec):
0 sec: Flesh Ream = 4096*2
1 sec: Pounce = 4096*0.25
1.8 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
2.6 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
3.4 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
4.2 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
5.0 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
5.8 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
6.6 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
7.4 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
8.2 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
9.0 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
9.8 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
Total = 20,480
x1.3 for Claw = 26,624
Bash Phoenix (1.0 attack/sec):
0 sec: Flesh Ream = 4096*2
1 sec: Bash = 4096*2*0.25
2 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
3 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
4 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
5 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
6 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
7 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
8 sec: normal = 4096*0.25
9 sec: Bash = 4096*2*0.25
Total = 19,456
x1.3 for Claw = 25,293
Scorp (0.6 attack/sec):
0 sec: Flesh Ream = 3336*2
1.67 sec: Bash = 3336*2*0.25
3.33 sec: Icicle = 3336*2*0.25
5.00 sec: Fireball = 3336*2*0.25
6.67 sec: normal = 3336*0.25
8.33 sec: normal = 3336*0.25
Total = 13,344
Bash Herc (0.8 attack/sec):
0 sec: Bash = 2672*2*0.25
1.25 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
2.50 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
3.75 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
5.00 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
6.25 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
7.50 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
8.75 sec: Bash = 2672*2*0.25
Total = 6,680
Pounce Herc (0.8 attack/sec):
0 sec: Pounce = 2672*0.25
1 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
2 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
3 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
4 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
5 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
6 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
7 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
8 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
9 sec: normal = 2672*0.25
Total = 6,680
Someone still needs to figure out the casting delay on pet skills if there is any (the above assumes there are none). And I'm pretty sure the skill is timed to coincide with the next attack after the cooldown expires. So with a 0.8 attack/sec pet the interval betwen Bashes is 8.75 sec, and with a 0.6 attack/sec pet the interval is 8.33 sec. Add the casting delay (if any) on top of that.
It's probably a bit too involved for a spreadsheet. You'd need to write a script which took the pet values from a database, and applied certain pet skills (assuming the legendary pets have 3 skills you don't want to get rid of) to come up with 10 seconds worth of PvP damage.0 -
I think skills can cut inbetween normal attacks, effectively ignoring attack speed. (though they do have a delay of there own) and I believe the attack starts up right after the skill(as in the skill resets the attack timer), ignoring wherever the timer was for the previous attack. Potentially making you able to get in another normal attack, though theres no way to know without extensive testing, specially with it only incurring tenths of a second.
Also your flesh ream calc is off. It hits initally for base damage, then adds 200%(in 9 seconds, so still in the 10s time frame), meaning x3 instead of x2.0 -
I figured something interesting out, but it's not worth the headache keeping it posted.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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In 10 seconds, a pet can do 10*dps damage. That's why I say that dps including skills is the number to look at, and not peak damage.
Of course if the pet has better peak damage, the skill damage will be greater, but this is included in the dps.
This was statistics. Now the way Solandri tried it is a bit different, very specific to pvp and this way more precise. I think it's possible to include the damage done in 10 seconds, as long as we find a formula.
Flesh Ream damage = Patk * 3
And so on... I did it for Bash so it's doable for anything. One more thing to do ! When I'll be back from holidays...
What do you mean by "acceleration"?OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »I actually figured out the Attack formula, or a really good approximation of it; just haven't written down the acceleration for the families yet, of which there are probably only 4-5 at most.
Write down the formula and if I it wasn't for my wife, I'd marry you ! ;-)0 -
Please stop insulting me, I know how to calculate simple math. (Math major)
That wasnt the point of my post. DPS in pvp is pretty meaningless, judging on your level I'd know more about that than you. You can run all the numbers you want, it wont make Herc better then Scorpion for ground pvp.
For pve you'd be right, but pvp is a whole different ball game with a lot more factors.0 -
Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you at all. Sure, you know a lot more in pvp than me. Maybe in math also, I'm a scientist but math is not my major.
I don't care about Herc being better or not than scorpion in pvp. (I think that considering all skills, scorpion is better, so I agree with you) I just don't understand your point. I don't understand why doing more damage for 1 hit (even if it's a skill) is more important than doing more damage in the 10 seconds you have between each tick.0 -
Thought people would be interested, but the resulting headache turned out to be not worth the time.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »What do you mean by "acceleration"?
Sounds like he's modeling it as y = ax^2 + bx + c where y=attack and x=level. That would be the same as a Taylor series approximation, except he's thinking of it in terms of differentials. y' = 2ax + b, y''=2a. So c = position, b = velocity, a (actually 2a) is acceleration. There are a million ways you can try to find a curve to fit the data, but that's probably the most common. Least squares approximation using a polynomial function is a pretty standard undergrad compsci assignment.
In PvP you're talking about human opponents, not automatons. Usually the outcome of a fight isn't determined by who has the most raw power. It's determined by who can make the other person panic first. If you're applying damage at a constant rate, the opponent perceives it as the same as a DOT. It's constant and predictable, and he can calmly take appropriate measures to counter it.Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »I don't care about Herc being better or not than scorpion in pvp. (I think that considering all skills, scorpion is better, so I agree with you) I just don't understand your point. I don't understand why doing more damage for 1 hit (even if it's a skill) is more important than doing more damage in the 10 seconds you have between each tick.
OTOH if you nail him with a huge amount of spike damage in a short period of time, he tends to panic. He doesn't know if all that damage is a spike or if it's a new higher rate of constant damage. It's unpredictable so he isn't quite sure how to react. If it's a spike, he's safe, he just needs to use some instant hp recovery elixers. If it's constant, then he needs to get out of there. That indecision costs him a precious few seconds of reaction time which can easily make the difference between life or death before your charm recycles.
Being able to do large spike damage is also handy as a killing blow. If by chance an opponent happens to get low on hp soon after his charm has ticked (maybe 3 people by chance happened to attack him at once), then you can use the spike to finish him before he has a chance to react. It's the unpredictable nature of the amount of damage which gives it strategic value in PvP.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Sounds like he's modeling it as y = ax^2 + bx + c where y=attack and x=level. That would be the same as a Taylor series approximation, except he's thinking of it in terms of differentials. y' = 2ax + b, y''=2a. So c = position, b = velocity, a (actually 2a) is acceleration. There are a million ways you can try to find a curve to fit the data, but that's probably the most common.
That is what I'm using.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »That is what I'm using, but the tone isn't needed.
Tone? What tone? Taylor series is what I use most too. I was just giving Succubae names so s/he can look up this stuff and read up on it if s/he likes.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Tone? What tone? Taylor series is what I use most too. I was just giving Succubae names so s/he can look up this stuff and read up on it if s/he likes.
Oh, my appologies then.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
As Solandri said, spike damage is more threatening. Also where hercs main dps comes from is normal attacks, while scorpions is through skills. Now factor in Flesh Ream not getting reduced(most say reduced 75%? not sure actual pvp reduction), but normal attacks do.Also for the sake of FR only the bleed is not reduced so its 1normal atk reduced + 2unreduced.Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you at all. Sure, you know a lot more in pvp than me. Maybe in math also, I'm a scientist but math is not my major.
I don't care about Herc being better or not than scorpion in pvp. (I think that considering all skills, scorpion is better, so I agree with you) I just don't understand your point. I don't understand why doing more damage for 1 hit (even if it's a skill) is more important than doing more damage in the 10 seconds you have between each tick.
10sec dps with FR in pvp:
Lv 90Herc: 1FR + 7normal attacks(reduced 75%) = 6012 + 4676 = 10688
Lv 90Scorpion: 1FR + 5normal attacks(reduced 75%) = 7506 + 4170 = 11676
Thats not even factoring the fact that nobody gets FR for hercules...
My point was Patk is more important for a pvp pet then dps, since FR is your main killer in pvp.0
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