Golem with herc skills?

@ Solandri & OMGLAZERZ:

Great contributions, hopefully we can get some further number crunching and further close the gap between your models.

Also wondering if anyone knows the formula for accuracy, in order for it to be included in the model. I think it's important to note that at level 90:

Hercules: 2297 Acc
Magmite: 1354 Acc

Not sure what sort of magnitude of gap that translates to on a "typical" level 90 mob, but I'd be very interested in finding out.

Thanks for noticing the mistake, Hari. I've gone back and corrected it. Surprisingly, the 15% increase to Bash damage doesn't change things much. Only a 2% increase in overall damage, less than half a percent change in the difference between herc and golem damage.

I'm still not sure about Bash always taking 1.25 sec regardless of pet attack speed. I suspect OMGLAZERS is right, but without anything in the game telling us, it's hard to conclude. Bash's speed might not even be 1.25 sec.

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just a curiosity question here, but what would occur if you had your pet using more skills? Give a golem several attack skills, like Sandblow, or others like that. Could, it, using such tactics outdamage a Herc? Firing off 4 attack skills one after another? The cooldown would end up being close, I think. Could the spikes of each skill end up putting the golem over the top?

Well, if you could get your hands on a Claw book (+30% damage at level 5), you could put it on your golem. Then again, you could put it on your herc too. I'd be curious if that would be enough for the herc to keep aggro without Bash. Bash 5 on a herc represents only a 14%-15% damage increase over no Bash. So Claw's 30% increase would easily beat it.

Peritia - Lost City wrote: »

Also wondering if anyone knows the formula for accuracy, in order for it to be included in the model. I think it's important to note that at level 90:

Hercules: 2297 Acc
Magmite: 1354 Acc

Not sure what sort of magnitude of gap that translates to on a "typical" level 90 mob, but I'd be very interested in finding out.

I've been meaning to work on backing out the formula for accuracy, but haven't had time. If anyone else is interested in tackling it, here's how:

When you target a mob, it'll show you your chance to hit, and the mob's chance to dodge your attacks. Basically you target a bunch of different mobs using different equipment ensembles (+dex and +accuracy equipment) which change your character's accuracy and evasion. Write it down. Look up the mob's accuracy and evasion on pwdatabase. Do this for a bunch of mobs, then start plotting data.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well it was kind of a thread derail(and still is derailing), and overall irrelivent imho. I think the OPs questions were answered within the first page tbh, the rest of this has been pointless jargon.(Seeing as even if the magmite was better[which it doesnt even appear that it is], it doesnt change the fact that herc is better in every other aspect possible, so wont be changing anyones mind about anything)

True. But I think it's necessary to complete the exercise at least once so we can all say, with mathematical certainty, that the herc does more damage than the golem. If nothing it'll assuage the min/maxers who are fretting that they're giving up damage when they switch from a golem to a herc. b:chuckle

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well it was kind of a thread derail(and still is derailing), and overall irrelivent imho. I think the OPs questions were answered within the first page tbh, the rest of this has been pointless jargon.

Topic derail? Perhaps.

However, as you mentioned, the original topic was soon answered, and as the question exists here now I see nothing wrong with answering it before the thread dies and falls into obscurity. The point of the thread was also, on a greater level, to contrast the pure capabilities of the Golem and Hercules with the same skill set, so I don't think it is a complete derail anyways.

Pointless jargon? I would disagree.

While I agree (as everyone would) that Hercules is obviously better, answering the question of exactly how much better is a rather interesting question, and I (like others, I believe) am interested in the final results.

First thanks for posting throughout the thread that we should stop posting and in the process contributing to the popularity of this thread.

Perhaps the Devs don't want us to know the Hurc just might not be worth it and loose millions in cash shop sales. Censure and belittling would obviously entail in that case.

Second this was a very fascinating thread. I learned more than I expected. I want to thank all of the many of you for your tireless detailed research. You truly are helpful people.

3rd I would like to talk about the survivability of the Magmite.
What I think about is HP pool vs. enemy DPS vs. my healing power.

HP pool vs. enemy DPS:The pet has to have enough Hp to survive the highest damage output of the enemy attacking it.

Healing power vs. enemy DPS:Considering my (our) healing power has to match or exceed the enemy's DPS upon my golum for it to survive any length of time.

My golum and I at level 69 where able to handle up to 3 even 4 level 101 Basilisk Madtooths.

So my thinking is not so much of the HP pool but the protection of (PD and MD an defense skills) and replenishing of (heal) the HP pool.

I welcome any input to this question, positive or negative. Feel free to express yourself. I don't feel the need to censure anyone. Thank you in advance

so i've got a question about the Blessing skill.. at level 1 will it give the same HP boost as it does on the nix? or do you need to get 5 scrolls to level it up to level 5 to get the total hp boost ?

Peritia - Lost City wrote: »

If you perform this manner of adjustment for all the pets listed on Ecatomb, you will find that Phoenix and Hercules have the highest DPS of all pets. (Surprise!)

At lvl 90, with bash lvl 5, the scorpion has a slightly higher dps than the Hercules :
Phoenix: 5461 dps
Scorpion: 3002 dps
Hercules: 2993 dps

EDIT: Er... What is the bash cooldown? The above values are with a bash cooldown of 6s...

@Pouncy - Sanctuary : I'm currently building a spreadsheet with all the pets stats, and formulas to sort them. However, I do not take the heal into account, but Mdef, Pdef and HP.
I'm currently working on dps (the dps increase by level is not obvious), evasion, and hitrate.
I'll put the results online very soon!

Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »

At lvl 90, with bash lvl 5, the scorpion has a slightly higher dps than the Hercules :
Phoenix: 5461 dps
Scorpion: 3002 dps
Hercules: 2993 dps

EDIT: Er... What is the bash cooldown? The above values are with a bash cooldown of 6s...

When I originally posted that, the intended subject was natural DPS, because the effect of skills is harder to accurately model. Not particuarly surprised that the scorpion would pull ahead when Bash is included.

The Cooldown on Bash is 8 seconds. Also, the casting time is longer than a normal attack, I believe I recall seeing 1.25 seconds thrown around as a decent approximation.

Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Also I don't have the damage of all pets at lvl 90, only the most common. If someone know how to find the damage, given the growth chart, he would make me a happy venom...

That's the million dollar (zen?) question. It's nonlinear. I've been trying to figure it out, but have been mostly tied up doing my taxes lately.

It's done here !

Actually, I just appreciated the comment Pouncy made and I wanted to answer. I agree that it's a bit late !

Peritia - Lost City wrote: »

Very good point.

Quote:Originally Posted by Peritia - Lost City
I've seen almost all of the legendary pets' skills up on auction at some point or another... Admittedly at ludicrous prices though.

As for the damage question, I don't understand how people always assert that a golem is better than Hercules for damage. It's not.

Using Ecatomb's Lv.90 comparisons:

Crystalline Magmite
Attack: 3240
Rounds/sec: 0.6
Attack/sec: 1944

Hercules
Attack: 2672
Rounds/sec: 0.8
Attack/sec: 2138

If you perform this manner of adjustment for all the pets listed on Ecatomb, you will find that Phoenix and Hercules have the highest DPS of all pets. (Surprise!)

Also, since 0.6 and 0.8 attacks per second are the two most common values, those of you who want a quick way to make a meaningful comparison:

(0.6 Pet's Attack Value) x0.75 = Pet's Attack as if it were 0.8

(0.8 Pet's Attack Value) / 0.75 = Pet's Attack as if it were 0.6

ie. If my golem (0.6) has 1500 ATK and my frog (0.8) has 1125 ATK, I will find they have the same DPS.

The reason people think that way is probably because they noticed that it's a bit harder for herc to hold aggro when grinding. More damage per hit means Bash does more damage. Then they see the stats without looking carefully, which appears to confirm their preconception.

who thought your maths wrong?

the actual calculations for her is
Time Damage
.8 2138
.6 ?

Thus
.6*2138/.8=1603.5
Damage is 1603.5 for .6secs which is a good deal 340.5 higher.
translated in DPS its 340.5/.60= 567.5
b:bye

LOL get a cub little bear lvl it up and you have 4x better pet...

lol my friend have one..o.o

its take my armored baar in duel..and it 75.
And it have MUCH more hp and def then magnite.
If y lvl skills up to 5 its a good pk pet too..bc of the stun skills.

And also the herc is kinda 60+ mil now so i would much rather setttle for a magmite if u can buy buffs for 300k each

I don't think a Mag would be able to handle the mag attacks even with herc buffs and why spend all this coin just for buffs.It would be best to save up for the herc and if you don't want to play another class that will get into instance areas possibly psychic.It only cost $125 in real money just save and buy when packs are on sale the faction my Veno is in did just this.

tweakz wrote: »

If I were to use Herc buffs on something, it would be to do something Hercs can not do: not so it can do less than 2/3 what a Herc can. That said, you can put them on a water pet, a ranged pet (for tanking some World Bosses a Herc can't), or a grinding pet. I wouldn't use them on a non ranged tank pet or an air pet.

boredom and excess of funding has led me to put these buffs on a phoenix. with a couple of veno friends, and their two pets, we plan to do WBs .

if you look around the forums theres pics of a squad of venos + blessing herc taking on watcher of chasm, completing the act in about a half an hour if i remember correctly, so the theory is plausible, seeing as all its stats but hp are better.

money and frivolous activity is fun.