Golem with herc skills?

Xtrememirage - Heavens Tear

I was just wondering if any1 uses a crystalline magmite and taught it the herc's buffing skills (protect, strong, reflect). Does it match up to the herc (meaning can it tank the same bosses as herc)? The magmite only has about a 1k difference in hp, phys def, and 3k difference in mag def than the herc (with buffs) according to the etacomb pet lv90 stats chart. The benefits of using the magmite would be that it has a slightly higher attack than the herc, and the magmite can feed on water. So, just wondering if I should buy a herc or go for the pet scrolls.

Thanks for any info.

Semyezza - Heavens Tear

How are you going to teach it the Herc buffs when it isn't possible to get them in the game?

What makes the Herc legendary isn't the fact that the thing's gold, you know. It's the freaking buffs. -headdesks several times and dies from exasperation-

Salvia - Heavens Tear

Semyezza - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How are you going to teach it the Herc buffs when it isn't possible to get them in the game?

What makes the Herc legendary isn't the fact that the thing's gold, you know. It's the freaking buffs. -headdesks several times and dies from exasperation-

Those pet scrolls are available from the chests in the Temple of the Dragon. The only place where you can get them by the way (other than other players). Which one you get however is random so it may take a lot of trips to get the skills you want.

As for the original poster I am completely with you on trying to find out if a magmite would work as well as a Hercules if it had these skills. Though, it would be my guess to say that the Hercules would still be better because of the added defenses and slightly higher health.

I'd love to hear a player with experience on this give their two cents.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

Xtrememirage - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I was just wondering if any1 uses a crystalline magmite and taught it the herc's buffing skills (protect, strong, reflect). Does it match up to the herc (meaning can it tank the same bosses as herc)? The magmite only has about a 1k difference in hp, phys def, and 3k difference in mag def than the herc (with buffs) according to the etacomb pet lv90 stats chart. The benefit of using the magmite would be that it has a slightly higher attack than the herc, and the magmite can feed on water. So, just wondering if I should buy a herc or go for the pet scrolls.

Thanks for any info.

1200 hp difference is HUGE, herc barely survives some bosses with his HP. Go for the herc, the cost of buying the skills would make it similarly priced anyways.. might as well get the better in every single way pet.(sans attack)

Side note: get herc the HP buff of phoenix = world boss tank, just need a few venos spam healing.

Xtrememirage - Heavens Tear

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

1200 hp difference is HUGE, herc barely survives some bosses with his HP. Go for the herc, the cost of buying the skills would make it similarly priced anyways.. might as well get the better in every single way pet.(sans attack)

Side note: get herc the HP buff of phoenix = world boss tank, just need a few venos spam healing.

Thank u for ur input, I really appreciate it. b:thanks

Semyezza - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How are you going to teach it the Herc buffs when it isn't possible to get them in the game?

What makes the Herc legendary isn't the fact that the thing's gold, you know. It's the freaking buffs. -headdesks several times and dies from exasperation-

Yea... um... the buff skills r certainly available in the game. So do ur research before talking like u know everything. k thnx bai b:bye

Mothergoose - Sanctuary

Those scrolls will end up almost as expensive as a herc. Might as well just go for the herc.b:chuckle

Peritia - Lost City

I've seen almost all of the legendary pets' skills up on auction at some point or another... Admittedly at ludicrous prices though.

As for the damage question, I don't understand how people always assert that a golem is better than Hercules for damage. It's not.

Using Ecatomb's Lv.90 comparisons:

Crystalline Magmite
Attack: 3240
Rounds/sec: 0.6
Attack/sec: 1944

Hercules
Attack: 2672
Rounds/sec: 0.8
Attack/sec: 2138

If you perform this manner of adjustment for all the pets listed on Ecatomb, you will find that Phoenix and Hercules have the highest DPS of all pets. (Surprise!)

Also, since 0.6 and 0.8 attacks per second are the two most common values, those of you who want a quick way to make a meaningful comparison:

(0.6 Pet's Attack Value) x0.75 = Pet's Attack as if it were 0.8

(0.8 Pet's Attack Value) / 0.75 = Pet's Attack as if it were 0.6

ie. If my golem (0.6) has 1500 ATK and my frog (0.8) has 1125 ATK, I will find they have the same DPS.

Mothergoose - Sanctuary

Peritia - Lost City wrote: »

I've seen almost all of the legendary pets' skills up on auction at some point or another... Admittedly at ludicrous prices though.

As for the damage question, I don't understand how people always assert that a golem is better than Hercules for damage. It's not.

Using Ecatomb's Lv.90 comparisons:

Crystalline Magmite
Attack: 3240
Rounds/sec: 0.6
Attack/sec: 1944

Hercules
Attack: 2672
Rounds/sec: 0.8
Attack/sec: 2138

If you perform this manner of adjustment for all the pets listed on Ecatomb, you will find that Phoenix and Hercules have the highest DPS of all pets. (Surprise!)

Also, since 0.6 and 0.8 attacks per second are the two most common values, those of you who want a quick way to make a meaningful comparison:

(0.6 Pet's Attack Value) x0.75 = Pet's Attack as if it were 0.8

(0.8 Pet's Attack Value) / 0.75 = Pet's Attack as if it were 0.6

ie. If my golem (0.6) has 1500 ATK and my frog (0.8) has 1125 ATK, I will find they have the same DPS.

The reason people think that way is probably because they noticed that it's a bit harder for herc to hold aggro when grinding. More damage per hit means Bash does more damage. Then they see the stats without looking carefully, which appears to confirm their preconception.

Peritia - Lost City

Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »

The reason people think that way is probably because they noticed that it's a bit harder for herc to hold aggro when grinding. More damage per hit means Bash does more damage. Then they see the stats without looking carefully, which appears to confirm their preconception.

Very good point.

I hadn't considered that part at all; I can see how one might reach that conclusion.

Thanks.

Xtrememirage - Heavens Tear

I forgot to mention another benefit of using the magmite. It is that u dun have to lv it from lv1! Man it's gonna take a while to lv that friggin lv1 herc isn't it (yes I know about the cube room, but still...). -_-

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

this thread made me bang my head against my keyboard.... alot.

yes, you can find them in DT... but why for the living mother of god would you give it to a golem?

say you find something like phoenix's HP skill/atk skill. Why not give it to herc in his 4th slot -.-...

Not to mention the cost of the scrolls would be like enough for 2-3 hercs/phoenixes. Think before you make these kinds of rediculous threads people! The OP must never have solo'd TT squad at all / used a herc if she thinks a GOLEM of all things would be a good replacement with its stats -.-

Daerys - Sanctuary

Just got out of 2-2. Tanked Cosmo with the herc, 2 venos healing. At then end he was getting hit for upwards of 3500(somehow we managed to keep him upb:shocked) Good luck doing that with a golem, even with Strong.

I have considered dropping Bash for the +30% HP strictly for ? bosses(since threat is a much lower issue).... not so sure it's worth it but something to ponder.

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

On the off chance I did happen to get ahold of one I would too. With 2 veno's healing cosmo though, next time, max your purge, and take turns purging it whenever you can. A second pet from the second veno with the skill THREATEN helps a ton as well. A combo of the two can kill cosmo in about 15-20 mins if you decide to try and solo it.

Xtrememirage - Heavens Tear

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »

this thread made me bang my head against my keyboard.... alot.

yes, you can find them in DT... but why for the living mother of god would you give it to a golem?

say you find something like phoenix's HP skill/atk skill. Why not give it to herc in his 4th slot -.-...

Not to mention the cost of the scrolls would be like enough for 2-3 hercs/phoenixes. Think before you make these kinds of rediculous threads people! The OP must never have solo'd TT squad at all / used a herc if she thinks a GOLEM of all things would be a good replacement with its stats -.-

The cost of scrolls is not enough for 2-3 herc/phoenixs. I have seen protect and reflect in the AH for 3 mil buyout. So if I got them all for 3 mil it would take around 11 mil to have the same skills as a herc. While the herc costs around 18 mil to get (this is on HT so not sure about other servers). Also, I did not say that I think the magmite is better/as good as the herc that is y I opened this thread to ask, so don't go flaming me for asking a legitamite question.

Kristiona - Heavens Tear

I have a herc with level 4 bash at the moment. I don't have any issue with him not holding agro while grinding either.

kristiona

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

Xtrememirage - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The cost of scrolls is not enough for 2-3 herc/phoenixs. I have seen protect and reflect in the AH for 3 mil buyout. So if I got them all for 3 mil it would take around 11 mil to have the same skills as a herc. While the herc costs around 18 mil to get (this is on HT so not sure about other servers). Also, I did not say that I think the magmite is better/as good as the herc that is y I opened this thread to ask, so don't go flaming me for asking a legitamite question.

Im entitled to my opinion, and mine is saying that the question was pretty dumb. And because you see it in AH for such a low price doesnt mean thats the gold standard. Something of such tremendous rarity and value should -not- be 3m

mentallaxative

I saw Protect in the AH going for 5-6 million a month or so ago. With such rare items like this you can expect the price to fluctuate a good deal.

The only advantage I can see to putting these skills on a golem is so that you get a 'legendary' pet without a 'legendary' diet. The base stats of the other pets are nowhere near as good as the two legendaries, and you can buy the Xmas blessing to stop your pets going hungry, so I don't think it's worth the trouble.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

I have seen reflect and protect for 3m-4m Buy now on AH in HT as well, but I think thats partially due to the fact that they are tanking skills and no pet is better then herc at tanking anyways so there is no real reason to buy them, if you are gonna spend a lot of coins making a good pet you'd probably want the best pet and just get the herc anyways.

Now Claw and Blessing, those I've been trying to get my hands on! Those will be expensive since they are useful to a wide variety of pets. (Claw on scorpion --> fking land phoenix for dungeon pvp || Blessing on Herc --> super world boss tank, killed shadow doll with Blessing herc yesterday)

Mothergoose - Sanctuary

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »

Im entitled to my opinion, and mine is saying that the question was pretty dumb. And because you see it in AH for such a low price doesnt mean thats the gold standard. Something of such tremendous rarity and value should -not- be 3m

But it is. Search the auction house from time to time, and you'll see. There are people selling them for huge amounts, but it only takes a few weeks to assemble the whole set from hunting for the cheaper ~3mil scrolls. Few people actively watch rare pet scrolls, so few bid on them.

No offense, but your opinion is contradictory to the facts. On average, Herc cost around 20mil in current exchange rate and average luck when opening packages. The Golem's base stat is still weaker, but only by a small percentage of total stat, for 8-9 mil less.

Personally, I'd still go for Herc instead, just to own the strongest tank in the game. But saving such a large amount of coins to settle for second best is definitely worth considering from a practical perspective. It's not a "dumb question," rather a pretty smart one.

Literature - Harshlands

Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally, I'd still go for Herc instead, just to own the strongest tank in the game. But saving such a large amount of coins to settle for second best is definitely worth considering from a practical perspective. It's not a "dumb question," rather a pretty smart one.

Thats just the thing. It's not practical lol. You're better off savin more money for a herc. That HP difference is HUGE. And I'm sure a golems def is lower. Not to mention hercs speed and high attack rate is better.

You would notice a difference in your golem but you wouldn't tank like a herc, especially on stuff like gargantakong king.

The only time I could see doing that is if you farm the scrolls yourself.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Literature - Harshlands wrote: »

Thats just the thing. It's not practical lol. You're better off savin more money for a herc. That HP difference is HUGE. And I'm sure a golems def is lower. Not to mention hercs speed and high attack rate is better.

You would notice a difference in your golem but you wouldn't tank like a herc, especially on stuff like gargantakong king.

The only time I could see doing that is if you farm the scrolls yourself.

The difference on P.Def at level 90 is less than 200.


As for the difference between the damage output of a herc and a golem given the same buffs (assuming both are using Bash 5):

If you fight the same mob with either a herc or a golem the damage will remain very close for about the first 2.11 minutes of the fight at which point the golem will start slowly falling behind without being able to catch up to the herc. Before that point the two are very very close as they are doing about the same amount of damage, and over a very short fight the golem comes out on top.


The main difference between the two is Spike damage (bash) (secondary difference is the white damage DPS) in which the Golem can hit for 6480 damage (before DR) while the Herc only hits for 4344 damage (before DR). In a short fight that difference makes up for the slower attack speed combined with the higher attack on normal attacks, but the increased attack speed of the herc will eventually allow it to eventually overcome the spike damage of the golem since the herc will do a lot more normal attack damage than the golem over time.

Over a 30 minute boss fight:

Herc: 4,448,880
Attacks: 1215
White Damage: 3,246,480
Bash Damage: 1,202,400

Golem: 4409640
Attacks: 911
White Damage: 2,951,640
Bash Damage: 1,458,000

Difference over 30 minutes: ~40k


I used the Attack and P.Def stats from ecatomb since the numbers I've seen from other pets on the page match those numbers accurately. I assumed that the Attack listed is at 500+ loyalty (120% Attack).

Xtrememirage - Heavens Tear

Ok Tearvalerin, u can have ur opinion. But u dun have to be rude about it, my question is not dumb. I already had a feeling that the answer to this would be that the magmite would not be as good a tank as the herc (obviously from the stats), but I just wanted to c if other (more experienced venos) can confirm this, as I never had any experience with a herc. So plz shut up if u dun have anything constructive to add to the thread.

Ok I get it now, and of course I will be going for the herc. plz close this thread if u will mods.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Peritia - Lost City wrote: »

I've seen almost all of the legendary pets' skills up on auction at some point or another... Admittedly at ludicrous prices though.

As for the damage question, I don't understand how people always assert that a golem is better than Hercules for damage. It's not.

Using Ecatomb's Lv.90 comparisons:

Crystalline Magmite
Attack: 3240
Rounds/sec: 0.6
Attack/sec: 1944

Hercules
Attack: 2672
Rounds/sec: 0.8
Attack/sec: 2138

If you perform this manner of adjustment for all the pets listed on Ecatomb, you will find that Phoenix and Hercules have the highest DPS of all pets. (Surprise!)

Also, since 0.6 and 0.8 attacks per second are the two most common values, those of you who want a quick way to make a meaningful comparison:

(0.6 Pet's Attack Value) x0.75 = Pet's Attack as if it were 0.8

(0.8 Pet's Attack Value) / 0.75 = Pet's Attack as if it were 0.6

ie. If my golem (0.6) has 1500 ATK and my frog (0.8) has 1125 ATK, I will find they have the same DPS.

The white damage attack is only part of the pet's DPS. In order to get a clear picture of the pet's DPS you have to take Bash into account as well

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2150411&postcount=21


Over a 30 minute fight the damage between the two should come down to a 21.9 DPS difference provided both are using Bash.

Herc DPS: 2471.6
Golem DPS: 2449.8
Differnce: 21.8

Solandri - Heavens Tear

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Over a 30 minute boss fight:

Herc: 4,448,880
Attacks: 1215
White Damage: 3,246,480
Bash Damage: 1,202,400

Golem: 4409640
Attacks: 911
White Damage: 2,951,640
Bash Damage: 1,458,000

Difference over 30 minutes: ~40k

Hmm, those don't match the numbers I got. I came up with about a 6% difference in favor of the Herc.

30 min = 1800 sec.
1800 sec / 8 = 225 Bashes

Hercules
1800*0.8 = 1440 attacks = 225 Bashes + 1215 regular attacks
Regular damage = 1215 * 2672 = 3,246,480
Bash damage = 225 * 2672 * 2.00 = 1,202,400
Total damage = 4,448,880

Golem
1800*0.6 = 1080 attacks = 225 Bashes + 855 regular attacks
Regular damage = 885 * 3240 = 2,770,200
Bash damage = 225 * 3240 * 2.00 = 1,458,000
Total damage = 4,228,200

Difference = 220,680 (Herc does 5.2% more)

Another potential issue is whether Bash fires immediately after the cooldown ends, or if it has to coincide with a regular attack. If it has to coincide, it alters the above slightly. Herc attacks every 1.25 sec, so in 8 sec it will attack 6.4 times. Bash will not fire until the 7th attack, so it will actually be 8.75 sec between each Bash. Likewise for the golem it will be 8.33 sec between each Bash.

Running the numbers again taking this into account, I get:

Herc = 4,397,349
Golem = 4,199,040
Difference = 198,309 (Herc does 4.7% more)

Is there something I'm missing which you used to get only a 40k difference?

If you fight the same mob with either a herc or a golem the damage will remain very close for about the first 2.11 minutes of the fight at which point the golem will start slowly falling behind without being able to catch up to the herc. Before that point the two are very very close as they are doing about the same amount of damage, and over a very short fight the golem comes out on top.

This is correct. Because each fight starts with a Bash, the Golem jumps to an early lead, then gradually loses ground. I won't bother plotting it since we're not taking accuracy into account. But if every attack hits, the transition happens about 12-13 seconds into the fight (not 2.11 min). That is, the Golem initially does more damage, but about 12-13 seconds into the fight the Herc catches up and passes it.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hercules
1800*0.8 = 1440 attacks = 225 Bashes + 1215 regular attacks
Regular damage = 1215 * 2672 = 3,246,480
Bash damage = 225 * 2672 * 1.85 = 1,112,220
Total damage = 4,358,700

Golem
1800*0.6 = 1080 attacks = 225 Bashes + 855 regular attacks
Regular damage = 885 * 3240 = 2,770,200
Bash damage = 225 * 3240 * 1.85 = 1,348,650
Total damage = 4,118,850

Difference = 239,850 (Herc does 5.82% more)

Is there something I'm missing which you used to get only a 40k difference.

I used the assumption that Bash resets the swing timer for the melee attack, and has it's own cast speed of 1.25 seconds.


And, I also said that at 2.11 minutes is when the golem can no longer catch up to the herc meaning it's spike damage from Bash will no longer push it above the Herc.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Hmm, how did you conclude it has a cast speed of 1.25 seconds? I vaguely recall seeing a graphic of the pet skill stats (like cast time) on some web site, but I can't remember where, nor can I figure out how to access them in the game.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hmm, how did you conclude it has a cast speed of 1.25 seconds? I vaguely recall seeing a graphic of the pet skill stats (like cast time) on some web site, but I can't remember where, nor can I figure out how to access them in the game.

Ability animations are not based on the actual skill cast speed.

MentalEdge - Heavens Tear

Would be funny to put those pet skills on a cactus.

Hari - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hmm, those don't match the numbers I got. I came up with about a 6% difference in favor of the Herc.

30 min = 1800 sec.
1800 sec / 8 = 225 Bashes

Hercules
1800*0.8 = 1440 attacks = 225 Bashes + 1215 regular attacks
Regular damage = 1215 * 2672 = 3,246,480
Bash damage = 225 * 2672 * 1.85 = 1,112,220
Total damage = 4,358,700

Golem
1800*0.6 = 1080 attacks = 225 Bashes + 855 regular attacks
Regular damage = 885 * 3240 = 2,770,200
Bash damage = 225 * 3240 * 1.85 = 1,348,650
Total damage = 4,118,850

Difference = 239,850 (Herc does 5.82% more)

Another potential issue is whether Bash fires immediately after the cooldown ends, or if it has to coincide with a regular attack. If it has to coincide, it alters the above slightly. Herc attacks every 1.25 sec, so in 8 sec it will attack 6.4 times. Bash will not fire until the 7th attack, so it will actually be 8.75 sec between each Bash. Likewise for the golem it will be 8.33 sec between each Bash.

Running the numbers again taking this into account, I get:

Herc = 4,314,898
Golem = 4,094.064
Difference = 220,834 (Herc does 5.39% more)

Is there something I'm missing which you used to get only a 40k difference?

That would be the fact that Bash does 200% damage... not 185%.

Isala - Sanctuary

Just a curiosity question here, but what would occur if you had your pet using more skills? Give a golem several attack skills, like Sandblow, or others like that. Could, it, using such tactics outdamage a Herc? Firing off 4 attack skills one after another? The cooldown would end up being close, I think. Could the spikes of each skill end up putting the golem over the top?

Mothergoose - Sanctuary

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just a curiosity question here, but what would occur if you had your pet using more skills? Give a golem several attack skills, like Sandblow, or others like that. Could, it, using such tactics outdamage a Herc? Firing off 4 attack skills one after another? The cooldown would end up being close, I think. Could the spikes of each skill end up putting the golem over the top?

Of course that would, DPS are very close. But you'll have to manually activate each of the additional attack skills, since autocast only works on one.