Give FistMasters Some Respect Every Once in a While...

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Sukrin - Lost City
Sukrin - Lost City Posts: 13 Arc User
edited April 2009 in Blademaster
Those of you who disregard fists as a useless or unworthy weapon for a blademaster to use, I can prove you wrong. If you bring me a blademaster that specializes in any of the weapon branches that is up to 3 levels higher than me, I will most likely win a duel with each one that challenges me.

If the fight is a simple hitting duel without skills (other than marrows) or chi/spark, I will win with a probability of about 95%. If the fight is a normal duel, I will win with a probability of about 85%. If you think I'm kidding, come and prove me wrong. If you decide to do this, don't challenge me to a duel if you are wearing buffs from any other class...

There are too many blademasters that read all of these threads that say that fists are useless, weak, or not worth the time, my interpretation. I made a FistMaster with the sole purpose to prove these claims wrong and so far, I have.

Now I know most of you AxeMasters are going to say that I will eat my words when you get Misty Forest Rings at level 77 because you will be actually hitting me and hitting me hard. This is true, but until I reach that level, I currently do not have a plan to counter this, yet.

A couple more things, Lyndura, you seriously need cut us FistMasters some slack, its not easy to level up a FistMaster when you and many others put so much pressure on us to just switch to using one of the other weapons because they are more commonly used or that they are more powerful...

The other thing, any of you low level blademasters who are the slightest bit interested in specializing in the art of fists and claws and ignore Lyndura's remarks on using fists, send me a message in game or send me a pm. I will gladly give you run down of how to build a great FistMaster, good skills to acquire, or stat allocation.
b:angry Fear the Fists... b:angry
Post edited by Sukrin - Lost City on
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Comments

  • AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear
    AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,413 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Make a guide man. I'll read it. I'm looking at branching into a faster weapon for 1v1 mobs for faster questing on magic mobs....I haven't made a decision on what weapon yet....and a good guide about fists interests my intellect.
    Retired

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    I acept the challenge. My claws vs your fists? LOL

    Fists is my second built. I call it second but the passive skills I have it at the same level as my main which is sword and at level 60 my main has become fists for mag mobs.

    TBH, I discover fist's powers recently (2 weeks ago).

    I agree with you with people getting misslead.

    questions:

    1)Do you wear HA or LA? I use HA most of the time and LA on certain cases.
    2)Which one you prefer Fists or Claws and what is the difference? I've been using claws so far and I have not tried fists yet.
    3) Do you use "Vacuous Palm" and in which cases?

    thx
  • Lyndura - Lost City
    Lyndura - Lost City Posts: 829 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    The level 66 Fist BM has spoken!

    Edit: Get to level 8x or 9x then prove us all wrong. I'll be waiting for you here.

    Actually, just go an duel the average Axe BM with XS and LY at level 7x. You will find your answer then.
  • Sukrin - Lost City
    Sukrin - Lost City Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Lyndura, that was my intention and goal. And Genrey, I ultimately prefer claws over fists since they have a higher peak damage, but the level 70 and 80 hh fists have max attack increases that make them just as strong as claws. Keep that lil piece of advice in mind.

    As for the guide... I'm planning on it, as soon as my classes end in about 3 weeks, I will hop right on that guide for every FistMaster in training to soak up and join the ranks among your fellow speed killers in PW.

    One thing I can say about being a FistMaster, spamming skills is the worst idea. A simple spark eruption plus cyclone heel can do some serious damage.

    I have done that, and more often than not, those AxeMasters tend to have the advantage over me with Army Commander's armor. The common Calamity axes aren't too bad... I can usually get around the damage and pull off a close win.
    b:angry Fear the Fists... b:angry
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Sukrin - Lost City wrote: »
    Lyndura, that was my intention and goal. And Genrey, I ultimately prefer claws over fists since they have a higher peak damage, but the level 70 and 80 hh fists have max attack increases that make them just as strong as claws. Keep that lil piece of advice in mind.

    As for the guide... I'm planning on it, as soon as my classes end in about 3 weeks, I will hop right on that guide for every FistMaster in training to soak up and join the ranks among your fellow speed killers in PW.

    One thing I can say about being a FistMaster, spamming skills is the worst idea. A simple spark eruption plus cyclone heel can do some serious damage.

    Do you use "Vacuous Palm" and in which cases?

    I read the your advice about STR and DEX in the other tread. So far I do exaclty that. It allows me to use my latest dual swords or dual blades too
  • Lyndura - Lost City
    Lyndura - Lost City Posts: 829 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    You should level up and get some real experience before giving advice to new/low level players.

    _________________________________________________

    You use Vacous Palm mostly for PvP, once you max it reduces 80% movement speed for 8 seconds, so it takes longer for people to run from you and you can use your normal attacks for a little more time.

    For PvE you use it against running mobs, specially magic ones.
  • Sukrin - Lost City
    Sukrin - Lost City Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Lyndura, I am not giving solid advice that will be guaranteed to work, I'm just informing fellow FistMasters of what I have done to make my FistMaster a force to be reckoned with.

    And about the vacuous palm... I made the mistake of getting lv 2 of it... its useless, unless you have extra sp a lot later in the levels to get it since it does your damage plus around 3500 when maxed... too bad it costs a spark to use.
    Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »
    questions:

    1)Do you wear HA or LA? I use HA most of the time and LA on certain cases.
    2)Which one you prefer Fists or Claws and what is the difference? I've been using claws so far and I have not tried fists yet.
    3) Do you use "Vacuous Palm" and in which cases?

    thx

    1) I wear HA, its tough to keep up with str demands to wear it, but its worth it.
    2) Claws, but until about lvl 85, there aren't any good claws since Skywarrior Fists HH are basically just as strong as Dark Flash. And Bhudda Fists at lvl 80, HH fists, will hold you over until 85 where you can start working up for Bone Ashura.
    3) Answered above.
    b:angry Fear the Fists... b:angry
  • bwhxeon1
    bwhxeon1 Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    No offense, but using fist for anything more than fun before lv 95 is a waste...except for pvp. If your a fist only BM at lv 68 you will be left in the dust by axe aoe grinding BM. I have sword leveled up along with my axes, but I would never take 10 monsters on at once with a it. At higher levels if you where to refine fist, they would indeed be a deadly weapon especially if you get the lv 79 skill. I do also have a misty forest ring and my stats are vit 89 str 220 dex 153. This allows me to use my refined calamity axes, the vit is mostly from gear and now I can pump as much dex every level till I restat around 95. Also I don't have much of a problem fighting archers with this setup. I also due use my sword for 1 on 1 dueling sometimes. But the main reason I started using it was for the Mariad sword stance skill.

    I've found most of the ultimates for aoe grinding aren't that great even the axe skill. Often you will need to use 1 spark for Bodhisatva if you want to gather a second round of monsters fast to aoe. So draining two sparks for it is not a great idea. You will also often be fighting monsters 8-10 levels above you. Which means your axes will have there dmg nerfed. So to counter that I always after using a stun to hold the monsters use a single spark eruption. If I ever have two sparks and pull more than I can handle I put my sword on and use sword stance to greatly cut the dmg monsters do and won't kill them so quick that I won't have a chance to rebuild chi.

    The only time I have ever even seen someone pull out fist while aoe grinding is if a monster with extra life outlives the others. Then they will put fist on and melee them to death. Swords and fist are for 1vs1. Thats just not a practical way to level for someone who could kill 10 monsters at just about the same speed. For pking later on, I decided I want swords, because of the average dmg, a sword with berserk at lv 90 and 99 as well as a 200% dmg added skill that doesn't require apocalypse pages.
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Sukrin - Lost City wrote: »
    And about the vacuous palm... I made the mistake of getting lv 2 of it... its useless, unless you have extra sp a lot later in the levels to get it since it does your damage plus around 3500 when maxed... too bad it costs a spark to use.

    I will try this skill tonight since I have it anyways. I will try the effect it does on triocs.

    The issue with trioc is that as soon you block the first mag attack with shadoless kick or any other skill, they start running away from you like crazy.

    I think this skill might slow them down plus some damage along the way.

    I will try it and report back.

    Thx for your answers and looking forward to read your guide.b:thanks
  • Nayiro - Sanctuary
    Nayiro - Sanctuary Posts: 1,275 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Only thing fist BMs are good for is DPSing a boss.
    That's what I do, I have my fists for boss fights and axes for AoEing/TW
    Back.
  • Sukrin - Lost City
    Sukrin - Lost City Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    That is the kind of criticism that really gets on my nerves... I can't disagree on the aoe grinding part, but when I do grind, I kill fast enough to prolly get about a 1/3 of what you axe bms get from aoe grinding in about the same amount of time... and my fists are always refined... ever since I got Sting of Thorns, every fist/claw after that has been at least +3.
    b:angry Fear the Fists... b:angry
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Hm, so I got 158 VIT, 245 STR, and 165 DEX, and using Fists, I can't hold boss aggro as much as I can with axes. Go figure. b:bye
  • Nayiro - Sanctuary
    Nayiro - Sanctuary Posts: 1,275 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Dude, if you read more, I'm one of the few in favor of fists.

    In fact, I go as far as saying they are killer in PvP 90+
    XAsch - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Hm, so I got 158 VIT, 245 STR, and 165 DEX, and using Fists, I can't hold boss aggro as much as I can with axes. Go figure. b:bye

    That's because you can't use the latest fists, and also, im a lvl 78 fist user and i can out aggro TheDan and many other people in my guild.

    EDIT: NVm on the using of the latest fists >.>
    Back.
  • Lyndura - Lost City
    Lyndura - Lost City Posts: 829 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    At your level the difference is not that much, as you said, 1/3.

    At 7x it is around 1/4 or even 1/5 depending of the BM.

    At 8x you can't really compare it anymore.
  • Nayiro - Sanctuary
    Nayiro - Sanctuary Posts: 1,275 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »
    At your level the difference is not that much, as you said, 1/3.

    At 7x it is around 1/4 or even 1/5 depending of the BM.

    At 8x you can't really compare it anymore.

    it's true, on a scroll with fists fighting water mobs i was getting 4% an hour if i was lucky, with axes i get about 10% an hour with a scroll.
    Back.
  • Phantum - Lost City
    Phantum - Lost City Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    The only reason I don't want to be a fist warrior is because... well it just seems weird beating something into a pulp. O___O I ain't goin' Bruce Lee... I'm going Lizzie Borden.
    b:dirty Why does it take 100,000 sperm to fertilize one egg? Cuz they don't ask for directions... *Rimshot* b:dirty

    b:laugh "Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life." b:laugh

    b:sad "Most cars on our roads have only one occupant, usually the driver." b:sad

    b:chuckle "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese." b:chuckle

    b:shocked "SUPREME COURT REULES THAT MURDERERS SHALL NOT BE ELECTROCUTED
    TWICE FOR THE SAME CRIME." b:shocked
  • Sukrin - Lost City
    Sukrin - Lost City Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    When it comes to taking agro from a dam good tank, I can pull it off, more than once usually and tank the boss I stole agro on.

    Since I haven't made it to those upper levels quite yet... I'm curious as to why you are killing water mobs? Why not air mobs, since they give the most xp? Well... at least from my experience they do... If I grind, I tend to use scroll and kill air mobs between 4-8 levels higher than me. And thanks for your support, Nayiro, in acknowledging the fists as a good weapon for bms. Unlike Lyndura, sorry, I can't break this grudge, if you just put a small, decent section on your guide for fists, I may actually see some hope in you. But you and your guide is still the sole reason why I set out to become one of the best FistMasters. Not there yet... But I will be a Speed Demon From Hell!!b:angry
    b:angry Fear the Fists... b:angry
  • Nayiro - Sanctuary
    Nayiro - Sanctuary Posts: 1,275 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Sukrin - Lost City wrote: »
    When it comes to taking agro from a dam good tank, I can pull it off, more than once usually and tank the boss I stole agro on.

    Since I haven't made it to those upper levels quite yet... I'm curious as to why you are killing water mobs? Why not air mobs, since they give the most xp? Well... at least from my experience they do... If I grind, I tend to use scroll and kill air mobs between 4-8 levels higher than me. And thanks for your support, Nayiro, in acknowledging the fists as a good weapon for bms. Unlike Lyndura, sorry, I can't break this grudge, if you just put a small, decent section on your guide for fists, I may actually see some hope in you. But you and your guide is still the sole reason why I set out to become one of the best FistMasters. Not there yet... But I will be a Speed Demon From Hell!!b:angry

    The water mobs at my lvl where pure phys, and water and air mobs of the same lvl give the same exp.

    BTW they where Clam Scouts. lvl 76 i believe.
    Back.
  • Phantum - Lost City
    Phantum - Lost City Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    We should stop fighting... Let's all just hate on the Mages. :)
    b:dirty Why does it take 100,000 sperm to fertilize one egg? Cuz they don't ask for directions... *Rimshot* b:dirty

    b:laugh "Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life." b:laugh

    b:sad "Most cars on our roads have only one occupant, usually the driver." b:sad

    b:chuckle "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese." b:chuckle

    b:shocked "SUPREME COURT REULES THAT MURDERERS SHALL NOT BE ELECTROCUTED
    TWICE FOR THE SAME CRIME." b:shocked
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That's because you can't use the latest fists, and also, im a lvl 78 fist user and i can out aggro TheDan and many other people in my guild.

    EDIT: NVm on the using of the latest fists >.>

    but my lv74 fists don't deal more DPS then my Calamities, due to the amount of times Berserk is spammed. In FB59, it's like..

    1200 > 1100 > 1200 > 2200 > 1100 > 1200 etc, with fists.

    2000 > 4500 > 2100 > 8000 > 4000 > 2200 etc, with spike damage, crits and berserk, using axes.

    Of course, the fists hit what, 10 times per 5-6 Axe hits? but 12k damage with fists on average, vs 18-24k damage on average, with axes. (berserk on my Calamities ticks what, 1 in 3 hits?)

    I guess it just depends on the weapons. Nobody can say blah blah is better then blah blah, cause blah blah might have been using a super weapon when he vs'd the other blah blah.
  • Minouft - Lost City
    Minouft - Lost City Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Sukrin - Lost City wrote: »
    Those of you who disregard fists as a useless or unworthy weapon for a blademaster to use, I can prove you wrong. If you bring me a blademaster that specializes in any of the weapon branches that is up to 3 levels higher than me, I will most likely win a duel with each one that challenge.

    Dont wanna break your bubble but you answered your own question (I will most likely win a DUEL). you dont do enough dmg with fist to kill anything that have a charm. And fist is only good in pve (one mobs at a time) and it do a pretty good jobs in that ;)
  • KhaosShadow - Sanctuary
    KhaosShadow - Sanctuary Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Although I would love to argue for the fist side, I can't. I love my fists and there good points have been pointed out already (great pve grinding 1vs1, amazing dps for boss fights). I use all 4 weapons for various reasons and I find that until I'm fighting a boss I don't have fists equiped, another weapon is simply better. And yes, I can out aggro any barb I've come across with fists very very easy (other then in TT where dmg is 25% on bosses). but what's the point? a barb is there to tank, trying to steal aggro is foolish. There are good points and bad points of every weapon. Fists do tend to get a lot of criticism, but they do for a reason. In most circumstances another weapon is better.(personally I think swords are the fail weapon of the BM, only useful for there 2 spark.)
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    KhaosShadow - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Although I would love to argue for the fist side, I can't. I love my fists and there good points have been pointed out already (great pve grinding 1vs1, amazing dps for boss fights). I use all 4 weapons for various reasons and I find that until I'm fighting a boss I don't have fists equiped, another weapon is simply better. And yes, I can out aggro any barb I've come across with fists very very easy (other then in TT where dmg is 25% on bosses). but what's the point? a barb is there to tank, trying to steal aggro is foolish. There are good points and bad points of every weapon. Fists do tend to get a lot of criticism, but they do for a reason. In most circumstances another weapon is better.(personally I think swords are the fail weapon of the BM, only useful for there 2 spark.)

    I have same aproach as you on this, I don't agree on the swords though. I guess, I have to wait and see what happen on future levels.
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Phantum - Lost City wrote: »
    The only reason I don't want to be a fist warrior is because... well it just seems weird beating something into a pulp. O___O I ain't goin' Bruce Lee... I'm going Lizzie Borden.

    When you get to magic mobs, you will wish to be Bruce lee.b:laugh
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Sukrin - Lost City wrote: »
    As for the guide... I'm planning on it, as soon as my classes end in about 3 weeks, I will hop right on that guide for every FistMaster in training to soak up and join the ranks among your fellow speed killers in PW.

    One thing I can say about being a FistMaster, spamming skills is the worst idea. A simple spark eruption plus cyclone heel can do some serious damage.

    I .

    The bad part about you publishing your guide for PVP is that your detractors will be able to counter you as they will know your plan already.

    Even though you might be right the test will prove you wrong as they know what you will do before hand.*

    However, I want to see your strategies for PVP (there is no other way I guessb:surrender). TBH, I find fists are great in PVE with mag mobs but I have found very litle use with the fists skills for PVP.

    The only one that calls my attention for PVP is "vacuous palm". Which you already recomend not having it more than level 1.

    *Ignorace on fist's skills among other players is key for victory, since when I use them players don't know what the skills are about. They are always asking me: what is that?, How did you do that? and so on.
  • Sukrin - Lost City
    Sukrin - Lost City Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Ok, I guess I may as well give up on convincing you nay sayers. I love fists and claws and always will.

    XAsch, what the hell kind of fists were you using? I was doing more damage than that with my fists and 5 hit crit streaks very often. And my crits were doing around 2200 to 2500 damage. At that time I was only using Lotus Malevolence +5, which my Courageous Fists +3 right now out damage my old lotus.

    Minouft, I do very good in pvp, if not equally as well as I do in pve. Its all about how you use the skills you have and the right timing to bust through the 10 second recharge on the charm and kill the player, which I can do very well.

    As for the rest of you, since you always see fists as a useful weapon just for dps on bosses and other minor issues, you don't take the time to actually build up on the fists skills to really see their true potential. I think that you really have to be devoted or just rich and a lot of extra sp for the skills to really be able to use fists to their full potential.
    b:angry Fear the Fists... b:angry
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Iunno what they are, the lv74 ones, 3*, +4, as I was curious to try it out.

    You might've gotten more crits then me, but my berserk on my axes covers all the crits I miss. (only 11% critical).

    I might agree that Fists would be better, if I could wear a pair that had the berserk effect, although it'd eat my HP like mad. (though I refuse to admit Fists are good in PVP, I always ignore them on my friends Archer, cause they hit me for like 200 on her, with their skills, which they seem to keep spamming, and it's easily tankable with a charm).

    I was just talking from personal experience. My own, not yours, not any of the Fist haters, but from testing it personally in several FBs, several times. Therefore, I refuse to argue with the facts, regardless of what haters/lovers of Fists say. =P
  • LongThan - Sanctuary
    LongThan - Sanctuary Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Xasch dont have the fist build, so the dmg is different
  • tatakairyu
    tatakairyu Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Seriously, when I see some low leveled fist user talk about fists being good in pvp I always laugh. I seriously want to know who the people you fight are, pure magic bm's? pure dex clerics? Or even the over powered pure strength wizards zomg!

    I mean come on, no fist bm is going to be breaking charms with the right timing unless you're fighting someone who has no charm(lol I broke his charm even though he didn't have one), just sucks really really bad or you have 20 or more levels on them.
  • xtazee
    xtazee Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    I've got a 6x Fist BM & a 8x Axe+Spear BM. So here's my PoV on each build: (I'll summarize it for you as this has been argued about in 100's of other threads and forums)

    - Swords: Myriad Sword Stance...that's it! This is a mediocre weapon choice with "decent" damage output but it will never outshine the other builds.

    - Fist: Only excels at boss fights as dps/skill interrupting, duels (LoL) and tank builds (mega-LoL). No sane BM should be using this build on a PvP server.

    - Spear: Range, bleeds and semi-AoE skills makes this the 2nd strongest build for PvP and does well in PvE too (luv Glacial Spike)

    - Axe: King of all builds! The best at PvE 'cos of the AoE grinding capability, 1v1 PvP/PK (stun lock! 'nuff said) and ofc group+TW PvP (AoE! Dragon!! AoE!!!)

    I'm sorry to break this to you but many skilled and high level BMs from pretty much every version and server have tried to prove what you're trying to prove..! It's the way the BM class was built by the devz.full stop :)

    BM's truly start shining after Lvl 74. Therefore Sukrin, please stop trying to mislead others being 6x BM with little or no experience..you're just wasting yours and their time..

    Majority of you'll will not even hit the 9x level range so don't even bother listening to rubbish like "Fist BMs rox after 90+". Because at Lvl90 - you can always reset, you got enough SP to max almost every BM skill and you get godly gear.

    Sorry for any typos, gram errors etc @ work.

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