Give FistMasters Some Respect Every Once in a While...
Comments
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xtazee, one of the only reasons why I have and will stick with fists is that when I was playing other MMO's before this one, there was always a monk class and they could only use their bare fists and were some of the strongest DD's in the game. I am not trying to mislead anyone, I am merely shedding some light on the fist build and how I have been just as successful as an axe, sword, or spear bm up to this point.
tatakairyu, I don't understand why you won't believe me when I say I can win pvp fights when my opponent DOES have a charm. I have done this plenty of times against all classes near my level or slightly above my level. I have taken down barbs with charms that were 70+. Of course I can't show you definitive proof since I don't record all my pk fights, but believe what you must.
I will stick with my fists until I see that they will no longer match up to other bms damage.b:angry Fear the Fists... b:angry0 -
- Swords: Myriad Sword Stance...that's it! This is a mediocre weapon choice with "decent" damage output but it will never outshine the other builds.
- Axe: King of all builds! The best at PvE 'cos of the AoE grinding capability, 1v1 PvP/PK (stun lock! 'nuff said) and ofc group+TW PvP (AoE! Dragon!! AoE!!!)
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TBH.
The blademaster is a confusing class. I cannot understand how a branch based on AOE skills like "Axes" can beat a branch with skills based on single oponents like "swords".
I can understand that Axes should be better for TW and grinding but for PVP, swords should own Axes on PVP and it should not even be a constest.
But I guess the facts are that Axes own in grinding, TW and PVP. I still have not experienced it myself but I guess that's how the game is.0 -
Sukrin - Lost City wrote: »xtazee, one of the only reasons why I have and will stick with fists is that when I was playing other MMO's before this one, there was always a monk class and they could only use their bare fists and were some of the strongest DD's in the game. I am not trying to mislead anyone, I am merely shedding some light on the fist build and how I have been just as successful as an axe, sword, or spear bm up to this point.
tatakairyu, I don't understand why you won't believe me when I say I can win pvp fights when my opponent DOES have a charm. I have done this plenty of times against all classes near my level or slightly above my level. I have taken down barbs with charms that were 70+. Of course I can't show you definitive proof since I don't record all my pk fights, but believe what you must.
I will stick with my fists until I see that they will no longer match up to other bms damage.
Hey, I want to be a believer since I think there is a lot of missleading around. However, I need to know which skills you use to own in PVP. The reason of my question is because the "vacous palm" and "shadowless kick" are not that strong and the the other two skills of the branch are equivalent to the axes skills. We could say the other 3 branches have more usefull skills for PVP.
I don't think you beat your opponents just with sparks and "cyclone heel"? or with the common skills from BM? Since Axes can do the same thing plus more.
At the same time I think you use some strategy on this. I'd like to know it. Please, send me PM b:surrender with your fighting strategy.
Posting it here will not help you, it will only weaken you.
I;m interested as fists is my second built.0 -
Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »TBH.
The blademaster is a confusing class. I cannot understand how a branch based on AOE skills like "Axes" can beat a branch with skills based on single oponents like "swords".
I can understand that Axes should be better for TW and grinding but for PVP, swords should own Axes on PVP and it should not even be a constest.
But I guess the facts are that Axes own in grinding, TW and PVP. I still have not experienced it myself but I guess that's how the game is.
Well, I can address that question for you, The main reason why axes trump swords 1 v 1, is look at the skill trees of sword and axe.
It's basically like this:
1st Sword skill: 3.1k dmg + base damage and slows channeling time by 50% for 8 seconds.
1st Axe skill: A single target stun for 6 seconds that hits for 3.3k and 100% of weapon damage.
Right there you get more DPS from the axe skill tree and a 6 second stun.
Sure you could argue about the 50% slower channeling time, but when somethings stunned, they can't do anything.
2nd Sword skill: A stronger version of drakes ray, dealing almost 2.5k dmg and has range.
2nd axe skill: An AoE move not only doing 2.1k damage but also 100% of weapon damage as well, and is a 360 degree 10 meter aoe.
Again looking and comparing both, you get more damage off of the aoe and it affects multiple targets, while the sword hits less and only affects 1 person. So even 1 Vs 1 the aoe skill hits harder.
3rd sword skill: This ones alot better imo, base dmg 100% of weapon + 3400 and its has a range of 18m. Pretty decent but as other sword skills its only 1 v 1 based.
3rd axe skill: 10m 360 degree aoe, doing 2,450 dmg and slowing those caught in it by 50% for 8 seconds.
Compared to 1 vs 1 Id say the sword wins in this case just by out dps'ing the axe skill.
Finally Doom Skills.
Sword: A 12 meter aoe dealing 200% weapon damage + 6.1k dmg, And has a bonus effect of making the targets caught in it lose 50% matk/patk for 15 seconds
Axe: A 12 meter aoe dealing 100% weapon damage + 4.1k dmg but for the next six seconds they take 100% dmg from all attacks after that.
It's not really a argument, Sure the sword HITS harder, but that's one attack. Anyone whos ever done, or had done a dragons on them can tell you they drop quick. For 6 seconds after dragons the target takes double damage. If that's not serious dps I dunno what is.
Another thing to keep in mind, Gold weapons from HH, Green HH, Molders. Almost all of them for swords (Excluding a few) But even the berserk sword are SINGLE handed. All axes are 2 handed. So the DPS (Max Normal patk) Is ALOT higher with axes. Axes are just alot stronger than swords, even 2 handed ones.
Add the extra stuns, aoes, double damage. Swords just can't out dps or out class axes.
I used swords untill 74, Then restated to axes. Sword users are a joke imo especially for PvP. I really thought when I started the game swords would be great 1 v 1 PvP. It's just not the case.
Just my opinion.b:cute
Sinnerz Lost City PvP.0 -
Excellent analysis complexx, very convincing. I can't help but think that the developers must have had some logic in mind to balance the paths. Maybe it didn't work out the way they intended, but I'd like to know what the underlying idea was.
Would the higher accuracy/critical rate for swords/fists play a factor? I don't think we can dispute the effectiveness of stuns with axes, but if your dex is a lot higher when using a sword/fist, then your accuracy means you're hitting the target more when you're not using active skills.
So, perhaps I'm developing an argument here....
if axes are superior when using skills, then maybe fists/swords have advantages when your mana-hungry skills deplete your MP. Just a thought. Do I have a leg to stand on here?
ps. I've been following Granrey's experiments through the forums, and I'd like to thank you for the mob-drawing technique with the bow. It works great!0 -
I'm glad the bow works for you. I want to pass the thank you to those who shared the knowledge with me.Zhoelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
ps. I've been following Granrey's experiments through the forums, and I'd like to thank you for the mob-drawing technique with the bow. It works great!
So, you know I did not discover anything thoughb:laugh. I just put it toguether after reading a bunch of treads plus suggestions from players.
I wish I knew about the bow when I was at the mines at Archo or when I was at wallen stronghold. I would have saved me some deaths, lol.b:laugh0 -
Well, I can address that question for you, The main reason why axes trump swords 1 v 1, is look at the skill trees of sword and axe.
Just my opinion.
I understand your argument. My question is what was the intention of the developers when they created the sword built?
If you see the skills, it see that swords were intended to own 1v1 while axes would do a far bettter job in TW and grinding.
As axes are good in grinding you can level up quicker than swords. Sword would level up slowly but with the idea of being the killer at 1v1.
You can see swords as an elephant having trouble with lions as he is young but as soon as he is full grown, lions are nothing for him.
However, sword is still weak after growing.
What was the idea?
I play really nice with my dual swords/blades and fists/claws on PVE but I guess I have the two jokes of the blademaster tree for PVP. LOL0 -
Zhoelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Excellent analysis complexx, very convincing. I can't help but think that the developers must have had some logic in mind to balance the paths. Maybe it didn't work out the way they intended, but I'd like to know what the underlying idea was.
Would the higher accuracy/critical rate for swords/fists play a factor? I don't think we can dispute the effectiveness of stuns with axes, but if your dex is a lot higher when using a sword/fist, then your accuracy means you're hitting the target more when you're not using active skills.
So, perhaps I'm developing an argument here....
if axes are superior when using skills, then maybe fists/swords have advantages when your mana-hungry skills deplete your MP. Just a thought. Do I have a leg to stand on here?
ps. I've been following Granrey's experiments through the forums, and I'd like to thank you for the mob-drawing technique with the bow. It works great!
Well here is the thing, pure dex sword / fist users usually wear light armor, and in pvp It's pretty bad, A Wr Vs A Wr or a Wb shouldn't kill each other 1 v 1. (In pvp not duel) It happens every once and a while but as a general rule Heavy targets don't kill heavy targets 1 v 1.
Basically yes sword / fist users get more acc and crit.
However any good axe wr builds his character to fix what they lack, in this case it's accuracy. I have around 120 dex, 2.4k accuracy, and 14% critical. I built my character to have good accuracy and use axes.
If I ever need to 1 v 1 a archer, I have about 200-300 accuracy pots in my wh. 30 seconds I get over 8k accuracy. Problem solved.
Basically a smart axe user can own any LA, Robe, (sometimes Heavy) Class if they play it smart.
Vice Versa the same can't be said about a fist / sword user.Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »I understand your argument. My question is what was the intention of the developers when they created the sword built?
If you see the skills, it see that swords were intended to own 1v1 while axes would do a far bettter job in TW and grinding.
As axes are good in grinding you can level up quicker than swords. Sword would level up slowly but with the idea of being the killer at 1v1.
You can see swords as an elephant having trouble with lions as he is young but as soon as he is full grown, lions are nothing for him.
However, sword is still weak after growing.
What was the idea?
I play really nice with my dual swords/blades and fists/claws on PVE but I guess I have the two jokes of the blademaster tree for PVP. LOL
I have no idea what the devs were thinking when they made sword / fist. There are PvE servers as well, and wr's are one of the only classes that get multiple weapon paths. Maybe they did it to add some variety and spice to the class that doesn't excel in any one area, but are great for multiple things.
Honestly no clue, but I'll stick with axes till I quit this game.b:cute
Sinnerz Lost City PvP.0 -
aw thats rather depressing. i was starting a sword bm cuz i thought swords looked nice, now you say swords are inferior in every way and i guess im going to have to go axe then. thats pretty bad balancing if its true, if we got everyone running around with axes then whats the point? i mean does sword/fist spells at least come out faster and have less cooldown? (less channel time, cast time)0
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mbrunestud wrote: »aw thats rather depressing. i was starting a sword bm cuz i thought swords looked nice, now you say swords are inferior in every way and i guess im going to have to go axe then. thats pretty bad balancing if its true, if we got everyone running around with axes then whats the point? i mean does sword/fist spells at least come out faster and have less cooldown? (less channel time, cast time)
nope that's why skill spamming is pointless for fist/single sword.0 -
Might possibly be some benefit for fisters to rely on rank heavy armor which has no stat reqs to boost their defense value. Only gives them guaranteed chest and leggings, but those are the two places that give the majority of your phys def anyways. Not counting refined phys def rings, which anyone can use.0
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i probably have no say since im a archer and not a BM but im already have a axe BM lvl 11. i hope to make him lvl 70 i hope by august but i nvr know. and correct me if im wrong but if you put accracy shards in your weapon in will help by alot? thats what i heard. i choose axe BM because my archer dies so fast and i wanted something to tank fb's. i already have a lvl 36 barb but he was my first character so i totally screwed up its stats. so i heard the best kind of tanking besides barbs was the axe BM. i once had a fist bm but it takes too long for someone to die so i deleted him"When life gives you arrows give them back ", Divine_Demon b:sin0
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Divine_Demon - Heavens Tear wrote: »i probably have no say since im a archer and not a BM but im already have a axe BM lvl 11. i hope to make him lvl 70 i hope by august but i nvr know. and correct me if im wrong but if you put accracy shards in your weapon in will help by alot? thats what i heard. i choose axe BM because my archer dies so fast and i wanted something to tank fb's. i already have a lvl 36 barb but he was my first character so i totally screwed up its stats. so i heard the best kind of tanking besides barbs was the axe BM. i once had a fist bm but it takes too long for someone to die so i deleted him
Yeah, accuracy shards help alot. Because at the time when I restated to axes from swords I had alot of extra dex I chose to put in x2 flawless patk and im very happy with them.
When I do get GX i'll put in accuracy.b:cute
Sinnerz Lost City PvP.0 -
*sigh* Yet another fist thread. Let me start out by saying I too started as a fist BM, and loved it. I hit about 70, then I decided to dual path axe, and what did I find? Using axes I leveled at least twice as fast if not more simply because of teh AoE power. Now I will not say that fists suck in any way, shape, or form, but when it comes to leveling fast, axes is teh win. For questing alot of times I use my Dark Flash (the special ability is win), btu grinding is calamities all teh way. Basically yeah, I agree with everything KhaosShadow said.I am the biggest hypocrit you will ever see or hear, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Greed destroys even the tightest of bonds0 -
And to the comment that we all just use fists for dps on bosses, I used fists until the high 70's where I started using axes as well. So I know what the fists skills are and what uses (or not) that they have. vicious palm is completely useless for the fact that it consumes a spark. you're using fists, use spark erupt or if you're grinding just use sutra with your chi. I love shadowless kick, but doesn't have a place in pvp because it's too hard to time and not spammable enough. Cyclone heel is great, once its maxed level you get more attacks then you would have even including the 2 sec channel/cast of the spell and its really powerful as well. I can't remember what the 2 spark is called atm but the only time its useful is during a boss fight where a cleric has red bubbled because you cant spark so the xtra fire dmg still increases your dps.
Also, fists do have really good dps pvp wise. I've used pure fists for a few TW's and got many many kills and significantly helped DD cat pullers. The biggest issue with fists, I find, is that they have 2.5meter range so they're extremely easy to just move away from. And yes, the people I killed had charms, but 6 second stun off roar is enough to kill most arcane wearers with fists. I don't believe that fists should really be used in pvp, but they are better then what most think imo.0 -
Yeah, accuracy shards help alot. Because at the time when I restated to axes from swords I had alot of extra dex I chose to put in x2 flawless patk and im very happy with them.
When I do get GX i'll put in accuracy.
yeah my axe BM [even though lvl 11] has a rough shard it its axes [thats the max i could use] and i kicked a player one lvlv more then. i beat a lvl 13 fist bm and a lvl 12 sword bm. i am hoping to tank fb's and stuff since im getting tired of a archer with low hp [dont get me wrong i love archers they do mad damage im already ddoing 6k crit hits and 1k-2k regular hits its awsome] i even choose to be a archer cause i thought they had more skills but i wsaw BM's had the same. so i would play this character till forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! axe bm's rock fist BM's sock b:victoryb:victoryb:victoryb:victory"When life gives you arrows give them back ", Divine_Demon b:sin0 -
you know today, I was killing some mobs for fun. I;m currently level 62 and decided to take on level 64 and 66 mobs. These mobs are melee/magic.
Well, I did pretty well switching between fists and swords (a bit of axes for drake bash some times). My gear is crappy, no TT weapons or TT armor.
I was owning the mobs but that's player skill (my skills), I cannot say it was swords or fists owning.
I guess the different branches on our tree have different level of difficulty and probably that was the intention of the developers. Going from easy in axes to most difficult fists.
This is just my theory. Since, I don't understand why the AOE branch (axes) owns the other two PVP based branches (fists and swords). This does not make sence at all.0 -
Who said Sword/Fists are meant to be PvP weapons?
You're just assuming that.0 -
Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »Who said Sword/Fists are meant to be PvP weapons?
You're just assuming that.
go go go get 89 already ;Db:cute
Sinnerz Lost City PvP.0 -
Just a quick response, since I had already mentioned that I had given up convincing anyone else that fists aren't useless or weak. I greatly appreciate some of the recent comments on fists. I may never restat to use axe since I have already planned out everything that I will be getting as use for my later fist/claw weapons. For the sake of all the axe bms out there, I may decide to dab into axes to see what they are all about first hand. And for those of you reading that have a bm around 67, duel me in game... I'm always itching to test my fists against your skulls.b:angry Fear the Fists... b:angry0
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Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »Who said Sword/Fists are meant to be PvP weapons?
You're just assuming that.
Yes, I'm assuming that based on the skills.
Axes skills are AOE skills while swords skills are for a single opponent.
The debate right now is that even though the swords skills are meant for single opponent, still axes does more damage to that single opponent with its AOE skills (meant for several opponents).
Fists have a similar situation in wich the skills of the tree pretty much are nothing except for cyclone heel and the ultimate skill.
Regarding the ultimate sword skill, I still think this is a skill for axes. Why?
Axes can use pretty much any sword weapon based on STR to use this skill. However, sword might have a problem meeting the STR to use Axes weapons as some builts are high dex. Similar situation with fists.
With fists is even worst if you consider that you need don't weapon to use the skills. The high STR on axes would make an stronger hit using swords and fists skills.
So, Axes have very litle problem using the swords and fists good skills.
All the axes guys have to do is to get level 1 of each skill and get the ultimate. Later they can increase the passive with spare spirit points.0 -
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fist bms are actually really good. but they pwn just about anything at 80+ but my brother.
(lvl 70 fist bm) kills people that are in lvl 80s.probably one of the smartest in perfect world
yet the lowest of level0 -
i totally agree on fist being a underrated class.
fists and claws are sooo shinyyy and cool looking
its just that the fist skills only seems effective against players/mobs using magick and most of the mobs BMs encounter uses melee attacks.
as for fist atacks they are lower than other weapons but they got higher crit rate higher hit percentage and higher evasion.
lets not forget they looks cooler than the clumsey axes thats stucks outta some weirdo looking BM.
but fist winning over spears or swords?
not gonnna happendb:chuckle
maybe axe if they are lucky
btw Lynduras guide ROCKSb:victory
ps. ima only lvl5 BMb:shutup
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FEAR THE FISTS DBZ LIKE ATTACKSb:angry0 -
Watch out for Lyndura, the 12 year old fist hating, trash talker. It seems he searches the forums for "fist" just to find a new place to flame.
Some people may want to play a fist Lyndura, and those that do may want to chat about it and get help from each other, and it would help if you would stay out if you don't have anything to offer.
And no, a fist is not that good in PvP, they get better post 90, but everyone pretty much balances out then anyway. They are however, very efficient in PvE, and have very cheap costs.
I do agree with Lyndura however that light armour...is...kinda...well its dumb. It isnt going to help you at all.
Go flame somewhere else Lyndura, some people don't like playing their games on the VERY EASY setting.0 -
okay im here to give fist blademasters there due credit
i play a private server and i have a lvl 150blademaster who uses fist
now my fist give me -.1atk interval and the lion rex gloves and boots give me -.15 and my windblown cape gives me -.05 now thats -.3 attack interval now if you dont know these interval stack in a unique way
a normal fist atks at 1.43 a sec now if you minus .1 it goes to 1.67 then if you minus .05 it goes to 1.82 then another -.1 and it becomes 2.22
now after that it depends on yoru culti on how fast you hit
if you are demon cult you can use dark cyclone kick and attack at 2.5 then if you use dark fury burst you attack at 3.33 (this is w/the attack reduce items)
now if you use both you hit at 4.xx a second now if you take the +12 fist that i use decadal god which is damage about 2k-2.5kish (the weapon alone) now on a fully heavyarmored bm i hit (w/o buffs on either) 500-1k with 1.5k-2.5k crits now all heavy armored ppl with +12 have at least (lvl 105+) 16k hp
now if you take in the hiero which has a 10sec cool down if i attack at about 4hit a second thats 2k-10k a second depending on crit now that ticks the hiero then in the next 10seconds i have to hit around 16k of hp then it a done deal
now on light i hit around 1k-1.5k with up to 3k crits
(not taking in dodge amulets etc)
on arcane i hit around 2k normal hits and 5-6k crits
now fully buffed enemies take off 100-600of that damage on a opponet
give or take a few hundred
now on a holy wr the advantage is damage reduce and cyclone kick lasts longer so you can use cyclone kick then holy fury burst and hit for 15second were as on a dark combo you only get 12seconds of fast attack
<.< now if we have a opponent who has full god stones in his amour or full phy stones it is a diff story but the build i use 350str 400dex 5con 5int does not miss at all and i use evasion stones because i fight melee on my bm so my evasion is around 10k and i use darkgrandfrost badges for rings with is +50%accuracy each so i have 10k accuracy so i never miss and i almost always dodge
now you can say but wait what about the other classes damage and ill say what damage they are dead by the time my opening stun is over
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I was building my alt towards the same mentality, but I wasw coming up with 5 attacks a second or so.
1.43 fist speed
+20% from Skill
+25% from demon spark
+25% from apothecary
So 1.43 * 1.7 = 2.431 atk spd
Interval 1/2.431 = .4114
-.1 from deicider
-.1 from lvl 80 wrist mold
That drops interval to .2114, which means atk speed of 4.73. Which is close enough to 5.
Now this is without counting any real high end gear, such as the -0.5 charm with all those stat boosts. Also, pretty sure there is a cloak that subtracts interval, and some of the items you've listed are prolly going to eventually get added into the game. So fist BMs can end up getting obscene lvls of atk spd for short bursts. Unless they end up putting caps in place, fists stand a chance for being the highest dmg possible. All it needs is a cleric to cast off one simple seal, or a Tyrseus from the bm, and it's all set to go.
Wonder if it will allow a total of -.4 attack interval at some point
Though having an atk spd of 1/.0114 = 87.7 would prolly end up getting some kind of action in place to prevent the abuse. 0 -
Bitisu - Lost City wrote: »okay im here to give fist blademasters there due credit
i play a private server and i have a lvl 150blademaster who uses fist............
This is the kind of thing I want to know but I don't even want to guess what can other BM like AXES do at level 150b:surrender
BTW, I'm not even sure If I will reach 80 and current level here is 105 anyways. Things are getting to grindy right now and it's just going to get worst.b:cry
Everything will depend on what the future expansions bring to the table.b:surrender0 -
Pyreon - Heavens Tear wrote: »Whatever is here.
Hipocricy much?0 -
Bitisu - Lost City wrote: »okay im here to give fist blademasters there due credit
i play a private server and i have a lvl 150blademaster who uses fist
now my fist give me
ohh...you mean one of the fake server that gives you like 100k exp and 500k coins for every kill?
(idk about it that much...and i don't wanna try it)probably one of the smartest in perfect world
yet the lowest of level0
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