About "Bugs/Exploits"

13

Comments

  • markillian
    markillian Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    *Yeah, let's not do that.*
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    ultima999 wrote: »
    Yar yar yar... I've seen that quote more than the number of times that I asked the question. All that quote means is that the GMs are DODGING THE QUESTION. A simple answer of yes and no would suffice, and it doesn't even need an explaination.

    The sole reason why the GMs are doding the question is because they do not want to upset the noobs by allowing "hiding in the catapult", which can lead to some noobs leaving the game; and they also do not want to upset the pros by disallowing "hiding in the catapult" because massive number of pros will also leave the game.

    Therefore, the best solution is to pretend that they can't hear our question and don't bother answering our question directly; instead, they promise to "review" each case if it's suspicious.

    Anyway, I am still hoping that a GM would step up and answer the community that question today - a direct answer please, a simple YES or NO is all needed.

    EDIT: It's been over 96 hours (4 days), and I still haven't heard a PM reply on the question from Xarfox either, he must be a busy man.

    You have a very dense head to not figure this out. When Xarfox was talking about the TW stuff, he said "abusing this bug". It can't get more clear than that. Use your head for once.b:angry
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • markillian
    markillian Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You have a very dense head to not figure this out. When Xarfox was talking about the TW stuff, he said "abusing this bug". It can't get more clear than that. Use your head for once.b:angry

    HOW WILL A NEW PLAYER WHO NEVER GOES ON THE FORUM FIND OUT ABOUT THESE BUGS???

    answer that and then we'll be quiet

    UNtil its stated anywhere in black and white terms "this is a bug, do not do it", it will be unfair to ban people for doing it. Its that simple.
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You have a very dense head to not figure this out. When Xarfox was talking about the TW stuff, he said "abusing this bug". It can't get more clear than that. Use your head for once.b:angry

    I'm using my head to see that you quoted a line when the GM Xarfox did not know the game mechanic. After he was shown that Alt-Click works, he didn't admit that he was wrong; rather, he has been giving everyone a silent treatment and assure everyone that if anything suspicious in TW, it will be reviewed by a GM.

    There, I've used my head.

    Now, it's your turn to use your head to figure out why none of the GMs (Xarfox, sutr, darthpanda16, etc) has answered the question with a YES or NO.... even though so many people only need a TWO LETTER (or THREE LETTER) answer over the last so many pages and threads.

    So, any other GMs gonna pop the answer? YES or NO? It's 50/50. Can't hurt to pick one.

    I know that if I ask about if we can do fake guid bidding, one of these GM would say right away NO.

    I also know that if I ask the GMs wether I am allowed to use pots when my HP is not full, anyone of them would answer YES.

    So why is no GM giving me an answer if I can hide in the catapult?
  • markillian
    markillian Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    You know I bet the Admins are just leaving this thread and not even reading it since most of my other posts about PW-MS being better than this version have been deleted but none of the ones in this thread have been deleted.
  • gattsuru
    gattsuru Posts: 3,184 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    I was waiting for there to be enough to simply slice into a big pile, personally. I'll give you a warning, markillian; repeatedly toying with the rules is a good way to get Shazzbot's attention.

    Ultima, Xarfox and Surtr already said, and I quote :
    If you go and talk to any of the Battle Coordinators they provide full tutorials on how to participate in Territory Wars and purchase catapults. What the Battle Coordinators don't tell you is that you can hide inside of your catapult so other players can't click on you. There's a reason for that, and that reason is that it is not the intended way to use them.

    There is a way to fight this exploit, but that does not change that it's an exploit of the code to gain an advantage over other players. The relatively unknown status of Alt-clicking to bypass NPCs does not help you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    gattsuru wrote: »
    I was waiting for there to be enough to simply slice into a big pile, personally. I'll give you a warning, markillian; repeatedly toying with the rules is a good way to get Shazzbot's attention.

    Ultima, Xarfox and Surtr already said, and I quote :

    There is a way to fight this exploit, but that does not change that it's an exploit of the code to gain an advantage over other players. The relatively unknown status of Alt-clicking to bypass NPCs does not help you.

    Please read the rest of the thread (the one that was closed), before posting your comment.
    If you agree to that, then everyone who ever used the rocks in TW to jump over the wall is glitching and should be banned.

    The TW Battle Coordinators never mentioned anything about using rocks to jump over the wall for advantage either.

    There are also countless hidden game play that is not explained by the NPC. Does that mean anything that is not explained in the game, is a glitch?
  • markillian
    markillian Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    gattsuru wrote: »
    I was waiting for there to be enough to simply slice into a big pile, personally. I'll give you a warning, markillian; repeatedly toying with the rules is a good way to get Shazzbot's attention.

    Ultima, Xarfox and Surtr already said, and I quote :

    There is a way to fight this exploit, but that does not change that it's an exploit of the code to gain an advantage over other players. The relatively unknown status of Alt-clicking to bypass NPCs does not help you.

    I was wondering when I was gonna get a warning....

    Anyways the Battle Coordinator doesn't tell us that that we can use Werebeast Perdition squads, it doesn't tell us that we can use a fist warrior to sneak up behind players and attack them, it doesn't tell us that we can spy, etc.

    Again, its a bit ridiculous to say that we can't do something because we weren't told we could.

    No npc is gonna tell us any strategy about how to win a TW, so now we're not allowed to use strategies?

    edit what ultima said about the rocks and stuff ^^
  • gattsuru
    gattsuru Posts: 3,184 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    The use of strategy has been rather well-documented, both from quest-givers and other sources. The use of rocks to jump over walls is an essential part of a character's early development, starting at the early level quest with a Guardian Charm or Spirit Charm award.

    Can you honestly sit there and tell me that you believe players will sit back and think "This is a great strategy, now most players can't target me, or will be slow to target me", and think it's fair gameplay even after being given a warning?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    gattsuru wrote: »
    The use of strategy has been rather well-documented, both from quest-givers and other sources. The use of rocks to jump over walls is an essential part of a character's early development, starting at the early level quest with a Guardian Charm or Spirit Charm award.

    Can you honestly sit there and tell me that you believe players will sit back and think "This is a great strategy, now most players can't target me, or will be slow to target me", and think it's fair gameplay even after being given a warning?

    Shift-Click and Alt-Click in-game helps are also available early in game too. So what's the problem?

    Please read the other thread for the discussion of why hiding in catapult is not a glitch. However, that is only a discussion. I do not dare to say that I'm right about hiding catapult is not a glitch. The dicussion in that thread only conveyed my OPINION.

    This thread, however, is to request the GM to give a direct answer if hiding in catapult is allowed or not. I have my own opinion about the matter, but I still have to play by the rules of the GM.

    This is why I still need the answer from them.
  • gattsuru
    gattsuru Posts: 3,184 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    We're not talking about shift-clicking being an exploit, though. Its behavior is intentional. Hiding within the models of other NPCs is not within the help text, a quest dialog, or the web pages.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    It seems that you wanna have a discussion about the nature of hiding inside the catapult, I shall indulge another discussion with you .

    In this game, there are two kinds of objects: PC (player-controlled) and NPC (non-player controlled). Because PC and NPC can overlapped each other's graphic sprites, it is difficult to select one from the other when they are intermixed.

    For this reason, the game has the Shift-Click and Alt-Click commands. The Shift-Click command is equivalent to clicking on the objects with all PC objects removed; the Alt-Click command has the same effect as removing all NPC objects for clicking.

    Both of these explainations are given in game during the early levels.

    How can it be a glitch when you really can't hide in the catapult? Anyone can still select you by Alt-Click.

    How can it be a glitch when the game SPECIFICLY designed a method to select PC from NPC? How can it be a glitch when it is CLEARLY documented?

    Just because people do not know about it - BECAUSE THEY DO NOT READ THE IN-GAME TIPS, doesn't make it a glitch.

    If it is allowed to call this a glitch, then soon people will start calling double jump as glitching the game. They will come up with an excuse that they do not know that they can jump in air, so when they see somoene jump in air (double jump), they report as glitching.

    Etc... etc... etc...
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    You can rant about the shift/alt click all you want. If you had read the posts that started all this, THEY DID THAT. IT DID NOT WORK. I know it does not always work because it often does not work for me when I use it.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You can rant about the shift/alt click all you want. If you had read the posts that started all this, THEY DID THAT. IT DID NOT WORK. I know it does not always work because it often does not work for me when I use it.

    Are you trying to prove to everyone that you are a noob? If you claim that Alt-Click does not work, you should claim that SPACE does not jump either.

    The noobs who keep saying that it doesn't work BECAUSE they use SHIFT-CLICK. Shift-Click is TO SELECT NPC (ie: the catapult) by design.

    Just like another noob previously said in this same thread to use SHIFT-CLICK. It is ALT-CLICK not SHIFT-CLICK. I also have given another example that you can reproduce and test in the game anytime. I suggest you try it out BEFORE making more fool out of yourself. Here is the test again step by step.

    1. Bring 10 friends to the Wolf Cub in South Archosaur near The General.
    2. Have your 10 friends stack up on each other on one side of the Wolf Cub
    3. You stand on the other side of the Wolf Cub
    4. Try clicking on your friends, you will always select the Wolf Cub
    5. Try Shift-Clicking on your friends, and you will always select the Wolf Cub
    6. Alt-Click on your friends and you WILL ALWAYS select a friend.

    Please stop displaying your lack of knoweldge of the game until you try the test I have shown above.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    ultima999 wrote: »
    Are you trying to prove to everyone that you are a noob? If you claim that Alt-Click does not work, you should claim that SPACE does not jump either.

    The noobs who keep saying that it doesn't work BECAUSE they use SHIFT-CLICK. Shift-Click is TO SELECT NPC (ie: the catapult) by design.

    Just like another noob previously said in this same thread to use SHIFT-CLICK. It is ALT-CLICK not SHIFT-CLICK. I also have given another example that you can reproduce and test in the game anytime. I suggest you try it out BEFORE making more fool out of yourself. Here is the test again step by step.

    1. Bring 10 friends to the Wolf Cub in South Archosaur near The General.
    2. Have your 10 friends stack up on each other on one side of the Wolf Cub
    3. You stand on the other side of the Wolf Cub
    4. Try clicking on your friends, you will always select the Wolf Cub
    5. Try Shift-Clicking on your friends, and you will always select the Wolf Cub
    6. Alt-Click on your friends and you WILL ALWAYS select a friend.

    Please stop displaying your lack of knoweldge of the game until you try the test I have shown above.

    Stop displaying YOUR stupidity please. Just recently a venos pet was on an NPC, no matter what I pressed I could NOT click the NPC. This whole topic would not have even started if it worked all the time because in the TW, they TRIED.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Stop displaying YOUR stupidity please. Just recently a venos pet was on an NPC, no matter what I pressed I could NOT click the NPC. This whole topic would not have even started if it worked all the time because in the TW, they TRIED.

    Woah another post to show your stupidity. Pets are NPC. If you are trying to select a NPC from another NPC, then try to select a PC from another PC.

    Can you select a specific friend from a stack of friends? If not, how da hell can you select a specific NPC from a stack of NPC? Use your head for a change PLEASE.

    EDIT: So did you just learn that pets are NPC? It takes you 66 levels just to figure that out... sad...
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Just me proving my point. You claim it always works when it does not. Then there is this.

    A quote from Crash.

    "dont say that we shud have used shft+click or alt+click as just about most the time it doesnt work and were helpless against even defending our self, we easily stood a chance in just a normal battle in the TW it self without the glitch but they simply had to bugger it for us all and cheat there way to a victory."
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Just me proving my point. You claim it always works when it does not. Then there is this.

    A quote from Crash.

    "dont say that we shud have used shft+click or alt+click as just about most the time it doesnt work and were helpless against even defending our self, we easily stood a chance in just a normal battle in the TW it self without the glitch but they simply had to bugger it for us all and cheat there way to a victory."

    Read my instructions again. It will ALWAYS work to select PCs FROM NPC. You can't select PCs from PCs, and you cannot select NPCs from NPCs.

    You either cannot read properly, or cannot understand. Again, Pets are NPC. They are not PC.
    Understand?
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    ultima999 wrote: »
    Read my instructions again. It will ALWAYS work to select PCs FROM NPC. You can't select PCs from PCs, and you cannot select NPCs from NPCs.

    You either cannot read properly, or cannot understand. Again, Pets are NPC. They are not PC.
    Understand?

    Are you blind? You must not read a thing I'm typing. Crash did BOTH and neither one worked. If it ALWAYS works, then please explain this. I don't think you can without adding more of your bs to this.b:bye
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Are you blind? You must not read a thing I'm typing. Crash did BOTH and neither one worked. If it ALWAYS works, then please explain this. I don't think you can without adding more of your bs to this.b:bye

    Maybe he's as dumb as you trying to select a NPC from a pet? Or maybe he's complete noob who doesn't know where his Shift key or Alt key is? Or maybe his keyboard is broken? Or maybe he's just a sore loser trying to make excuse?

    Pick one. I am surprised that you still show your noobness in this thread. You are level 66. Learn the game already; stop acting like a noob. DO THE TEST THAT I EXPLAINED.

    Do it 1000000000000 times.

    If one time fails, then I will shut up and give you all my gold and gears.
  • gattsuru
    gattsuru Posts: 3,184 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    Please be civil, both of you. This is a matter of information, not about insults. Everyone knows the latter. : )
    How can it be a glitch when the game SPECIFICLY designed a method to select PC from NPC? How can it be a glitch when it is CLEARLY documented?
    I may have missed it, but last I checked, that's not the case. The only reference to Alt-clicking is to have character join your Squad, not specifically to seperate players from npc overlap. I did look through both the help ("L" key), web site, and New Player automatic help.

    NPCs interrupting the Z-axis from a player's viewpoint are well-documented (it looks like there's even code to prevent the rendering of overlaped parts), and I assume the NPC hitboxes are documented as well. That's not a surprise, nor does it prohibit any specific instance from being a glitch. Nor are all exploits glitches.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • iamugly
    iamugly Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    gattsuru wrote: »
    I was waiting for there to be enough to simply slice into a big pile, personally. I'll give you a warning, markillian; repeatedly toying with the rules is a good way to get Shazzbot's attention.

    Ultima, Xarfox and Surtr already said, and I quote :

    There is a way to fight this exploit, but that does not change that it's an exploit of the code to gain an advantage over other players. The relatively unknown status of Alt-clicking to bypass NPCs does not help you.

    It does not say I am allowed to fly on my sword either, does that mean it is a bug and I am not allowed to do it?
  • iamugly
    iamugly Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Are you blind? You must not read a thing I'm typing. Crash did BOTH and neither one worked. If it ALWAYS works, then please explain this. I don't think you can without adding more of your bs to this.b:bye

    After the TW, Crash said right there in open chat that he did not know about ALT click, so if he did not know about it, how did he try it in TW?

    You saying Crash was lieing about not knowing it at the time, or are you lieing about him knowing it?

    We where laughing at him, getting to 70+ and not knowing the keyboard controls. I just assumed he did not bother reading the docs, or he bought the account, or he botted the account and so had never learned basic controls.

    I knew them before level 10.

    I did not know about the turning the face thing until like level 30 though. You know, where you click on someone, and you can use your mouse to turn their head in the target picture.
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    gattsuru wrote: »
    Please be civil, both of you. This is a matter of information, not about insults. Everyone knows the latter. : )


    I may have missed it, but last I checked, that's not the case. The only reference to Alt-clicking is to have character join your Squad, not specifically to seperate players from npc overlap. I did look through both the help ("L" key), web site, and New Player automatic help.

    NPCs interrupting the Z-axis from a player's viewpoint are well-documented (it looks like there's even code to prevent the rendering of overlaped parts), and I assume the NPC hitboxes are documented as well. That's not a surprise, nor does it prohibit any specific instance from being a glitch. Nor are all exploits glitches.

    It is funny because one minute we were talking about the mechanic of the game, ie: how Alt-Click and Shift-Click works. Suddenly, you switch to talk about the documentation?

    By this time, I assume that you have tested the Alt-Click, and see for yourself that it DOES work. So it proves futile to argue with me further on that front. Instead, you are now trying to say that if a feature of a game is not documented then it is a glitch?

    Let's say for argument sake that there are no documentation whatsoever about Alt-Click. But the feature does exist in game to allow players to select PC from NPC; however, it is for the players to figure it out themselves. Do you call it a glitch and ban people from using it?

    I want your honest opinion on that question as a moderator.

    EDIT: by the way, hiding in the catapult is not the only way to mix PC with NPC. It is a lot more common to hide mages at choke points inside venomancer's pets (golems) by using the Stop command. So before answering my question, do take some time to think about this common tactic as well.
  • sanguinaria
    sanguinaria Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    Drussella - Sanctuary wrote: »

    Poor venos that turn lv 40 and have to go kill that boss and use airpet and have no idea that that boss isnt supose NOT to do dmg. Like that lv 100 thing we have to kill in our lv 20's that dies of a few physical hits... That a exploit to? .... How do we know what is and what is not a exploit?

    just using a flying pet to tank a mob is NOT the exploit. you have to really know what youre doing and get into postition to do it to cause the bug. i have been one to use this exploit on the Malay client, so i know. knowing that it is a bannable offense here, i do not use it, nor do i complain that i shouldnt.

    all i can say is...get over all of this...dont do it. its a FREE game, no one is forcing anyone to use the boutique, or making you pay to play.

    on the other hand, i do agree that there needs to be a more visible way for casual players to know what actions are wrong.

    Edit: sorry realised everyone has gone off on the catapult/TW tangent after i wrote this, but my opinion still stands.
  • markillian
    markillian Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You can rant about the shift/alt click all you want. If you had read the posts that started all this, THEY DID THAT. IT DID NOT WORK. I know it does not always work because it often does not work for me when I use it.

    You don't seem to understand either 1)what the strategy being used was or 2)what Crash was saying

    The team using the "glitch" had lots of their own players inside/around the catapult, so that when anyone from the other team would try to click the puller, while using alt-click, they weren't able to get the puller BECAUSE THERE WERE SO MANY PLAYERS IN THE WAY.

    why is that so hard to understand?
  • gattsuru
    gattsuru Posts: 3,184 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    ultima999 wrote:
    It is funny because one minute we were talking about the mechanic of the game, ie: how Alt-Click and Shift-Click works. Suddenly, you switch to talk about the documentation?

    I was under the impression that the documentation was important. Specifically, you said :
    ultima999 wrote:
    How can it be a glitch when the game SPECIFICLY designed a method to select PC from NPC? How can it be a glitch when it is CLEARLY documented? Just because people do not know about it - BECAUSE THEY DO NOT READ THE IN-GAME TIPS
    Is it about whether the behavior is documented, whether the counter to that behavior is documented, or what?
    By this time, I assume that you have tested the Alt-Click, and see for yourself that it DOES work. So it proves futile to argue with me further on that front. Instead, you are now trying to say that if a feature of a game is not documented then it is a glitch?
    Not at all. I do not have the clout nor willpower to make such a rule. I'm pointing out that Xarfox has already done so.

    Alt-click doesn't always work, by the way. I'm still trying to track down the cause, but some older systems seem to break the functionality (and, more frustratingly, shift-click). Not sure if it's an OS-related thing or more relevant toward on-board GPUs or even due to some other software on the system, because it's a very random problem, but it does seem to occur at least some of the time.
    Let's say for argument sake that there are no documentation whatsoever about Alt-Click. But the feature does exist in game to allow players to select PC from NPC; however, it is for the players to figure it out themselves. Do you call it a glitch and ban people from using it?
    Without further information, I'd consider it an exploit (rather than a glitch). The relatively minimal severity of the issue would recommend something more similar to a short-term suspension or even warning, depending on the situation. Statements to the contrary by the GMs, or addition to the documentation, would obviously change that.

    I'm not the best person for those hypothetical situations to be pointed at.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ultima999
    ultima999 Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    gattsuru wrote: »
    Alt-click doesn't always work, by the way. I'm still trying to track down the cause, but some older systems seem to break the functionality (and, more frustratingly, shift-click). Not sure if it's an OS-related thing or more relevant toward on-board GPUs or even due to some other software on the system, because it's a very random problem, but it does seem to occur at least some of the time.
    I am interested in knowing when Alt-Click or Shift-Click faills to work. Remember that these commands can only differentiate between NPC and PC. There are no mechanism to differentiate one PC from a group of PC; and also there is no mechanism to differentiate one NPC from a group of NPCs.
    Without further information, I'd consider it an exploit (rather than a glitch). The relatively minimal severity of the issue would recommend something more similar to a short-term suspension or even warning, depending on the situation. Statements to the contrary by the GMs, or addition to the documentation, would obviously change that.

    In that case, I shall list you a few more game mechanisms that are not documented anywhere in the game.

    - Ctrl-Click to force attack certain NPCs (eg. pillars). This is used to gain Chi
    - Shift 1-5 to select party members instead of clicking them

    Are these also exploits based on your opinion?

    Those two are keyboard shortcuts not found in any documentation in the game.

    There are also many game mechanisms (eg: NPC's behavior) that have no documentation in the game. One particular of interest is the ability to attack through walls; the other is mobs' ability to move through walls.

    Is it an exploit to know these game mechanism and use them?

    If you say that anything that has no documentation, is an exploit, then at least 3/4 of the game's contents are exploits. Does that even make sense to you?
  • Aftermathrar - Sanctuary
    Aftermathrar - Sanctuary Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    Coming from console fighting games and a small amount of StarCraft, it seems alien to me that clever use of ingame mechanics is a subject to protest. In the games I've played, high-level play broke down to who knew the game better and how to employ tactics that make it more difficult for the other person to stop what you're trying to do than to keep up what you are doing. Often they were things that might not have been intended, but my friends and I always thought that developers would think "Wow, I never even imagined it could be played like this, what a deep game it has become." For a good explanation of this viewpoint, I'd urge anyone prone to calling tactics "cheap" to read this excellent piece on Playing to Win.

    Hiding in the catapult is simply going with that idea, as is stacking other people in and around the catapult to stop from clicking on the right person. Hiding in a pet while attacking is the same, easier to target them than you. When I pvp in towns with animals, I run into the pack of animals when I see the person do buffs or something else, to make it harder for them to click on me, especially since the majority of players don't know about alt-clicking (also just thought that running behind NPCs might be good). A simple trick, but sometimes it wins duels for me.

    A game isn't ruined by trying out different strategies and making use of mechanics to do non-documented actions (combos wouldn't even exist in fighting games if not for a glitch). Actions that are overpowered and have absolutely no counterstrategies should be nerfed or fixed, but only after seeing if there is no counter. Against NPCs like bosses getting pulled through doors or not being able to fight back, they obviously only ave a counter of being fixed. They aren't broken enough to warrant player bans I don't think, but should be fixed since they've been around as long as the game has and the NPCs can't learn on their own.

    The catapult strategy in TW isn't as one-sidedly broken as that. There is a sure way around it, holding alt while clicking, and if it doesn't work once, it's pretty easy just to continue holding alt and then left click once more. Documentation shouldn't rule over everything in how to play, allow people to experiment and if it comes out that it really is a one sided thing and there's nothing to do about it, then fix it. Don't try to deal with it by issuing some threat, if you're wanting to do things on the honor system then you're just on a slippery slope of having a bullet-point list of how to play and act in TW.


    Also, way back to Darkraven, about "Well if this is bannable ...then this and this and this should be too" pfft Easy to point fingers in any direction but your own.

    in the cases that were stated, yes, if the dragging of that particular boss through a wall is bannable, then so is dragging a regular mob through a wall, as they only can do it through specific walls. It's simply a change of severity, boss versus regular creature. The point we were trying to bring up is that if you want to ban something, it should be a very clearcut and easily definable ban. If venos can't drag that particular boss through that particular wall, then it could, perhaps, cascade further from there, as there are a lot of ways to use obstacles when kiting to slow or separate NPCs.

    If standing completely inside catapults is wrong, then how about witht he catapult between you and the person trying to target you? How about when PKing hiding behind a tree so the person can't select you immediately? If you ban one thing that causes X delay on clicking on you, why not ban something that causes a slightly smaller Y delay on accurate clicks?


    Sirlin wrote:
    The point is that if a game becomes "no fun" at high levels of play, then it's the game's fault, not the player's. Unfortunately, a game becoming less fun because it's poorly designed and you just losing because you're a scrub kind of look alike.... But if it really is the game's fault, there are plenty of other games that are excellent at a high level of play. For games that truly aren't good at a high level, the only winning move is not to play.
  • snicker
    snicker Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2008
    ultima999 wrote: »
    You know what they do the the bugs? Take forest ruin's bug for example. This bug has been around for 3+ years. Yes, I have been playing the game for 3+ years and the bug existed since then.

    Instead of fixing it, they turn off the event completely. That's how they fix these bugs. So if you want them to fix the venom's pet bug. That would mean disabling the Venomancer class completely

    If you want them to fix the hiding in catapult "bug", then they will shutdown TW completely.

    Oh wait, that means they'll shut down the whole game completely.

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=99882

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