About "Bugs/Exploits"

Specgoesemo - Lost City

I see far too many people each day complaining about how someone is bugging this or exploiting that. So I feel that this needs to be said. I will cover a couple of the most common so-called "bugs/exploits" that we know today:

1. Venomancer's bugging bosses/fb29.
2. Hiding in the catapults for TW.

So to start, I will cover the Venomancer bug. Let me put this exploit in simpler terms that explain exactly what this bug is. A Venomancer tanks with its pet. There ya go, doesn't sound so bad now does it? Whether or not a Veno is in the air and his pet is tanking, or if it is on the ground, all that's happening is the pet is tanking a freakin boss. If a Veno is using this method of soloing bosses, GOOD FOR HIM/HER! The ability to do this was implemented into the game. Take advantage of it! If the GM's see it as an exploit, then it is their responsibility to patch the game in a way that you can no longer do it [just like EVERY OTHER MMORPG OUT THERE!] It is not fair to ban someone for simply using the game mechanics to their advantage. If the game mechanics are flawed, it's not the players problem, the game creators made it that way [regardless of if it was an accident or on purpose]. Here's an example: In Guild Wars, players were smart enough to find a way to make an invincible monk. The GM's response to this situation? FIX IT! Did they ban people? NO! Same game, different situation: Assassins have a skill that makes you invincible to anything except point blank AOE. Well, players found out how to make it permanent. GM's response? FIX IT! Did they ban people? NO!

Moving on. Hiding in catapults. Stop you QQ and read every reason I gave above, same applies for this bug. If GM's deem it an "exploit", they need to fix it and make it where you cannot walk through catapults. Not ban people.

markillian

Specgoesemo - Lost City wrote: »

The ability to do this was implemented into the game. Take advantage of it! If the GM's see it as an exploit, then it is their responsibility to patch the game in a way that you can no longer do it [just like EVERY OTHER MMORPG OUT THERE!] It is not fair to ban someone for simply using the game mechanics to their advantage. If the game mechanics are flawed, it's not the players problem, the game creators made it that way [regardless of if it was an accident or on purpose]. Here's an example: In Guild Wars, players were smart enough to find a way to make an invincible monk. The GM's response to this situation? FIX IT! Did they ban people? NO! Same game, different situation: Assassins have a skill that makes you invincible to anything except point blank AOE. Well, players found out how to make it permanent. GM's response? FIX IT! Did they ban people? NO!

Moving on. Hiding in catapults. Stop you QQ and read every reason I gave above, same applies for this bug. If GM's deem it an "exploit", they need to fix it and make it where you cannot walk through catapults. Not ban people.

I agree 100%. Players are paying for problems that are in the game and haven't been specifically stated as against the rules even on the forum.

Theres no way for a new player to find out about these bugs except by reading topics created by players complaining about them.

And as a rule, it is a small minority of players who go to the forum unless they have a problem, so theres no way for most players to find out that something is considered a bug.

the PW staff has to put themselves in the average player's boots. The average player doesn't go to the forum, simply plays the game, when for example a veno finds that they can attack certain monsters without getting hurt, why wouldn't they do it?

Players don't excpect there to be bugs/glitches, they don't look for them, so when they find them they usually don't know that they're using them. I used to think that the only way to get banned was by downloading hacks.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

As I've said before I would intentionally leave the bug in the game, let people know about it, then ban anyone who uses it. That way it would weed out all the players that would willingly use bugs and leave the game with only players smart enough to play the game properly.

Specgoesemo - Lost City

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As I've said before I would intentionally leave the bug in the game, let people know about it, then ban anyone who uses it. That way it would weed out all the players that would willingly use bugs and leave the game with only players smart enough to play the game properly.

Properly? Let me give you a different scenario that has the EXACT same concept. "Oh I am a WB and I fkkn pwn everything with my perdition skill so due to me being the fair person that I am, I won't go kill people with it because I want this to be a fair, happy, joyful little perfect world! YAY!"

This is what you are if you have this mentality => b:pleased CAREBEAR!

ultima999

You know what they do the the bugs? Take forest ruin's bug for example. This bug has been around for 3+ years. Yes, I have been playing the game for 3+ years and the bug existed since then.

Instead of fixing it, they turn off the event completely. That's how they fix these bugs. So if you want them to fix the venom's pet bug. That would mean disabling the Venomancer class completely

If you want them to fix the hiding in catapult "bug", then they will shutdown TW completely.

Oh wait, that means they'll shut down the whole game completely.

Tenderloin - Sanctuary

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As I've said before I would intentionally leave the bug in the game, let people know about it, then ban anyone who uses it. That way it would weed out all the players that would willingly use bugs and leave the game with only players smart enough to play the game properly.

That's pretty much unenforceable unless it is being policed by the community itself which is not really feasible.

Tenderloin - Sanctuary

ultima999 wrote: »

You know what they do the the bugs? Take forest ruin's bug for example. This bug has been around for 3+ years. Yes, I have been playing the game for 3+ years and the bug existed since then.

Instead of fixing it, they turn off the event completely. That's how they fix these bugs. So if you want them to fix the venom's pet bug. That would mean disabling the Venomancer class completely

If you want them to fix the hiding in catapult "bug", then they will shutdown TW completely.

Oh wait, that means they'll shut down the whole game completely.

I know what you mean... many F2P companies would take a sledgehammer to fix a problem requiring a scalpel.

Specgoesemo - Lost City

ultima999 wrote: »

You know what they do the the bugs? Take forest ruin's bug for example. This bug has been around for 3+ years. Yes, I have been playing the game for 3+ years and the bug existed since then.

Instead of fixing it, they turn off the event completely. That's how they fix these bugs. So if you want them to fix the venom's pet bug. That would mean disabling the Venomancer class completely

If you want them to fix the hiding in catapult "bug", then they will shutdown TW completely.

Oh wait, that means they'll shut down the whole game completely.

You know what the great thing is about that though? It means they lose players, therefore, losing money. And on top of that, if they shut down the whole game as you propose this would lead to, THERE'S MANY BETTER GAMES OUT THERE! A game creator that is unwilling to put time into fixing his own game's flaws will rightfully lose players. Either ban people unfairly and lose people, or completely remove aspects of the game due to small bugs and lose people. OR take a little bit of time and fix the problem, and have made a very successful game.

ultima999

And you know the reason why?

In terms of legal issues, it is illegal to ban players for using these bugs without a prior warning.

It is not required that you read the forum to play the game. Unless the official bannable bugs are displayed on the game launcher, banning players for using these bugs the first time is against the law.

For the players, they read the EULA and agree to it. There is no section in the EULA that list those specific bugs; therefore, it is not possible for the casual players to know that these are bannable bugs by using them. For them, it is just a smarter way to play.

Because of not able to ban these players without prior warning, and because they do not have the time nor the resource to fix these bugs (yet), the staffs just disable the event that associated with those bugs to avoid the frustrations.

My point is... be careful what you wish for.

EDIT: Take the case where HolyHell's guild leader was banned when he used fake guild bidding. If he were to take the matter to court, this company will lose. The reason is that "the bannable fake guild bidding exploit" is never displayed, posted or listed in the game launcher. The forum is an optional participation; it is not required to read the forum to play the game.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

ultima999 wrote: »

And you know the reason why?

In terms of legal issues, it is illegal to ban players for using these bugs without a prior warning.

It is not required that you read the forum to play the game. Unless the official bannable bugs are displayed on the game launcher, banning players for using these bugs the first time is against the law.

For the players, they read the EULA and agree to it. There is no section in the EULA that list those specific bugs; therefore, it is not possible for the casual players to know that these are bannable bugs by using them. For them, it is just a smarter way to play.

Because of not able to ban these players without prior warning, and because they do not have the time nor the resource to fix these bugs (yet), the staffs just disable the event that associated with those bugs to avoid the frustrations.

My point is... be careful what you wish for.

Illegal? Don't count on it. Read this from the ToS

"Please note that regardless of any notice, PWE reserves the right to discontinue the Service or to terminate or suspend your account at any time in its sole discretion for any reason, or for no reason."

They can ban you for any reason or for NO reason and you agreed to that by creating an account.

ultima999

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Illegal? Don't count on it. Read this from the ToS

"Please note that regardless of any notice, PWE reserves the right to discontinue the Service or to terminate or suspend your account at any time in its sole discretion for any reason, or for no reason."

They can ban you for any reason or for NO reason and you agreed to that by creating an account.

Not if you spend real money in your account; then it becomes unfair business practice.

In real life, things are different when money is involved. I'm a lawyer (to be), I should know

EDIT: an example where that EULA will fail in court. If you spend thousands of dollars in your account, obey to every rules but the GM doesn't like you and ban your account for no reason. The company will lose in the lawsuit.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Even after you spend money the same rules apply. It also says that if you get banned you get nothing in return.

markillian

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Even after you spend money the same rules apply. It also says that if you get banned you get nothing in return.

unless you're also a lawyer, how do you know the legal implications? PWI has their own rules, but those rules are trumped by laws.

ultima999

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Even after you spend money the same rules apply. It also says that if you get banned you get nothing in return.

True, but it depends on what you are suing for?

If you are suing for the return of your account, then you WILL LOSE in court. Because their EULA protects them.

If you sue them for unfair practice of business and STEALING YOUR MONEY (the money you spend for your account), then you will win.

This is why I said that in real life, the laws are quite different when money is involved.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

What do you think the ToS is for? Its to cover all legal aspects. You AGREE when you make an account that they can ban you for any reason they want, or for no reason at all, and you get nothing in return no matter how much money you spent on this game.

Any money you spend on a game with a cash shop is considered to be a DONATION to help keep the game running. You do not have to pay ever, you chose to, therefore you are entitled to nothing in return other than whatever they feel like giving you.

I can spend 500$ in a week on this game for example, then break a rule right after and get perma-banned. Does not matter how much you spend they'll ban you just as fast as anyone else if you break the rules, or simply becuase they feel like doing so, and you agreed to let them do so.

markillian

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What do you think the ToS is for? Its to cover all legal aspects. You AGREE when you make an account that they can ban you for any reason they want, or for no reason at all, and you get nothing in return no matter how much money you spent on this game.

Any money you spend on a game with a cash shop is considered to be a DONATION to help keep the game running. You do not have to pay ever, you chose to, therefore you are entitled to nothing in return other than whatever they feel like giving you.

I can spend 500$ in a week on this game for example, then break a rule right after and get perma-banned. Does not matter how much you spend they'll ban you just as fast as anyone else if you break the rules, or simply becuase they feel like doing so, and you agreed to let them do so.

again, unless you're also a lawyer, how do you know the legal precedents?

Zoe - Heavens Tear

markillian wrote: »

again, unless you're also a lawyer, how do you know the legal precedents?

They have their own lawyers, think about that. Who do you think helps companies make the ToS and EULA's?

"In the event your Account is terminated or canceled for any reason, or for no reason, no refund will be granted, no online time or other credits (e.g., points in an online game) will be credited to you or converted to cash or other form of reimbursement, and you will have no further access to your Account."

Enough said

Tenderloin - Sanctuary

ultima999 wrote: »

And you know the reason why?

In terms of legal issues, it is illegal to ban players for using these bugs without a prior warning.

It is not required that you read the forum to play the game. Unless the official bannable bugs are displayed on the game launcher, banning players for using these bugs the first time is against the law.

For the players, they read the EULA and agree to it. There is no section in the EULA that list those specific bugs; therefore, it is not possible for the casual players to know that these are bannable bugs by using them. For them, it is just a smarter way to play.

Because of not able to ban these players without prior warning, and because they do not have the time nor the resource to fix these bugs (yet), the staffs just disable the event that associated with those bugs to avoid the frustrations.

My point is... be careful what you wish for.

EDIT: Take the case where HolyHell's guild leader was banned when he used fake guild bidding. If he were to take the matter to court, this company will lose. The reason is that "the bannable fake guild bidding exploit" is never displayed, posted or listed in the game launcher. The forum is an optional participation; it is not required to read the forum to play the game.

He signed the TOS agreement basically agreeing the game company can terminate his account for any number of reasons. So in case the guy actually sued he would be wasting his money because the case would get thrown out of court. And yes, terms of services agreements are legally binding.

xarfox

Specgoesemo - Lost City wrote: »

So to start, I will cover the Venomancer bug. Let me put this exploit in simpler terms that explain exactly what this bug is. A Venomancer tanks with its pet. There ya go, doesn't sound so bad now does it? Whether or not a Veno is in the air and his pet is tanking, or if it is on the ground, all that's happening is the pet is tanking a freakin boss. If a Veno is using this method of soloing bosses, GOOD FOR HIM/HER!

In your example above where a flying pet is "tanking" said boss, the boss is not attacking back, he is bugged. Yes it's a bug, and yes it has been reported to our developers in China. Now in the meantime, anyone caught abusing this mechanic is subject to punishment.

Just because a bug exists, does not mean it's open for exploitation until it's fixed. We here at PWE are here to enforce the rules, and one of those rules is as follows:

(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

ultima999

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What do you think the ToS is for? Its to cover all legal aspects. You AGREE when you make an account that they can ban you for any reason they want, or for no reason at all, and you get nothing in return no matter how much money you spent on this game.

Any money you spend on a game with a cash shop is considered to be a DONATION to help keep the game running. You do not have to pay ever, you chose to, therefore you are entitled to nothing in return other than whatever they feel like giving you.

I can spend 500$ in a week on this game for example, then break a rule right after and get perma-banned. Does not matter how much you spend they'll ban you just as fast as anyone else if you break the rules, or simply becuase they feel like doing so, and you agreed to let them do so.

A few things.

1. The EULA (or the ToS) only covers the software property and all virtual properties in this game. This is why you will lose in court if you are suing them for any of these virtual properties.

2. The example you gave will not hold in court when you are suing for your money. The only basis for winning the lawsuit is "unfair business practice". But because you break a known game rule on purpose, you have forfeited the clause of fair use; therefore, it will not hold in court.

The legalities in the real world are very complex. Don't assume anything unless you know some details to the legal system.

aftermathrar

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As I've said before I would intentionally leave the bug in the game, let people know about it, then ban anyone who uses it. That way it would weed out all the players that would willingly use bugs and leave the game with only players smart enough to play the game properly.

Let me introduce you to a little site called Sirlin.net. It's by someone who was in the fighting game tournament scene for years and a Champion in one of the Street Fighters. He writes about game balance, fairness in games, and all other sorts of topics pertaining to game mechanics.

The article I want to point out is What Should Be Banned? He outlines the 3 criterion that he thinks should exist for a ban, I won't repeat what he says and suggest you read it fully.

Any sort of ban on Vanomancers luring would fail all 3 of these, except perhaps enforceability, because some people might report needless things like this. Firstly, what is the advantage? If you use a wine, then the only thing you are skipping is the miniboss, which can be ranged by Archers, Clerics, Venomancers, and Wizards safely without it so much as moving. From there the door is open and you can fight him as intended. If you don't use a wine, then to do it "as intended" you'd kill the extra 8 mobs till you can safely range, then do that. Then once the door is open, lure the boss past the horsemen and fight him in the hallway. The difference seems to be dragging him through the door, which I agree is sort of ridiculous and seems easy to fix.

But does such an exploit give an unfair advantage to players? Any more than ranging the miniboss and getting a free pass to the boss room? Should ranged attacks be banned or anyone caught shooting monsters when they can't reach them banned? The fact that such a harmless bug is having so much controversy is surely due to a minority of players who think that because a game is free or open beta, they should accept the bugs and ignore them entirely. And a set of companies who release buggy free games or eternal open betas and make little effort to fix them in comparison to getting new cash items out, instead just threatening or executing bans on insignificant exploits.

Note that I got a little sidetracked at the end of that, and PWI certainly is nowhere near as bad as many F2P games (I was thinking of Acclaim), but tat mentality seems to be pervasive in the industry now.

Especially in an MMORPG where you have the exact same tasks being done countless times by masses of players, many bugs or loopholes will be found. The players get some satisfaction of finding and using techniques that seemingly abuse the game, and may or may not gain some slight advantage.


And a defense against the part where it brings up bugs that aren't equally available to all players should be immediately banned. The class of venomancers wouldn't fall under this. Every player is free to make a Venomancer, get into an FB29 party, and do the trick. Where it would be warrant for a ban is if only players from a certain IP range, or country, could do the trick for whatever reason.


Also read #6 on this, which points out some ridiculous TOS terms that WoW makes, and which this game seems to as well. If you're banning players for things well within game mechanics, then perhaps it's not the players at fault, but the game mechanics? Players should almost never be banned for exploits acheived through means entirely in the game, the exceptions I'd think would be a way to PK in safe zones, blue names on the PvE servers, ways to crash others' clients, and other glitches which might seriously hinder gameplay for anyone exposed to them. Luring a boss 2 minutes early or soloing a boss that no one wants to do and really gives worse rewards than normal grinding doesn't fall under any of these.

markillian

xarfox wrote: »

In your example above where a flying pet is "tanking" said boss, the boss is not attacking back, he is bugged. Yes it's a bug, and yes it has been reported to our developers in China. Now in the meantime, anyone caught abusing this mechanic is subject to punishment.

Just because a bug exists, does not mean it's open for exploitation until it's fixed. We here at PWE are here to enforce the rules, and one of those rules is as follows:

(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

and yet theres no sticky that says that its a bug, and theres no in game message that says its a bug for people who never go to the forum, so how do new players know that its a bug?

ark

Because, Mark, a boss is being attacked without attacking back isn't normal, and it gives a player and advantage. That's what makes a bug as a general rule. You don't really need to be told what is a bug, do you?

ultima999

ark wrote: »

Because, Mark, a boss is being attacked without attacking back isn't normal, and it gives a player and advantage. That's what makes a bug as a general rule. You don't really need to be told what is a bug, do you?

Does that mean attacking dogs, chickens, and horses in towns are exploiting bugs? Those animals don't attack back.

I'm sorry if I pick on the technicalities, but it is in my nature b:laugh

EDIT: Also countless other ways to play the game here. Are these exploiting bugs?

1. Hitting pillar to gain chi
2. Kiting monsters/boss so they cannot attack back
3. Stacking players to avoid target
etc.. and etc...

aftermathrar

Just typed/lost a big edit on mine, so I'll just make a second post. After reading the Admin post, which I somehow missed the first time, here's a few other clarifications/questions.

What exactly constitutes a design flaw? Going back to my first post, the fact that 4 classes can safely shoot the miniboss of FB29 a design flaw? It certainly gives them a small advantage over barbarians and blademasters trying to kill that same miniboss. Before you get around to patching it, would you require that players step into the range of the miniboss before engaging it, just so that it always has a chance to attack back? And would you ban if someone was reported as standing outside of its max range?

It seems very wrong to me that players can't be rewarded for exploring new strategies and tactics in your game, and possibly finding ideas that confer marginal benefits when compared to the "intended" way, but can just pay money and get hugely unfair advantages over all the other players. In such an environment, skill or knowledge about the game mean nothing, and many more players should fell put off by this than by a veno luring a boss early or killing a boss that gives exp/rewards worse than if you were to not kill that boss and just fought regular mobs.

I hear some complaints about how high level play is all about "zen parties" and I'm worried that even though I read many guides for all characters and try to figure out the best way to do things, that i'll be left behind because I don't want to invest all my money, in addition to my time, into doing dungeons impossible without charms.

Certainly, bugging that boss is a gltich and should be fixed just because of the absurdity in concept, but it seems as though this has been a well-known problem for quite some time, and how are you going to decide who needs banned? i helped out someone with the end of that boss, and just thought that the pet was actually tanking, not finding out until after that it was bugged. Should I have fear of losing my account?

I'm exaggerating of course, and probably blowing this up out of proportion, but vague ToS statements and subsequent poor handling of bugs (like that money bug that lasted a few hours, although I really don't know enough to comment on it further) will just alienate players from your company and lead to endless cries of foul play from players too lazy to find counter strategies or other ways to play on their own.


Edit: rar @ Ultima, good points. Class advantages or simply playing smarter shouldn't count as unfair advantages to other players. Bringing skill or knowledge to a game isn't grounds for banning.

Drussella - Sanctuary

I'm so a noob....

"Luring" bannable? I dont get it? More and more when i read something on this forum, i read about this and the boss veno glitch.... And then i read about ppl being banned, and then i try and find some official info on it... Cant find it... I realy REALY realy realy REALY dont get it, luring is a MMORPG strategy as old as friggin AC

And its banned in PW?! WTH?!

If there is a exploit, PUBLISH IT on game launcher. Put buttons next to this publication, saying "read and will follow instructions." and "No", i like to hAxploit" Launcher will exit on the latter.

Now then if someone still thinks its cool to abuse the game and gets caught, ban them big time.

THIS IS FOR THE GM's: In Europe (where i live) banning for unpublished reasons is breath of contract, on reasons of unfair conduction of bussiness. Oh and in Holland its illegal to have TOS say u cant sue -_-

Should ban the Netherlands then i guess.

Hugz and kissez

surtr

Drussella - Sanctuary wrote: »

"Luring" bannable? I dont get it? More and more when i read something on this forum, i read about this and the boss veno glitch.... And then i read about ppl being banned, and then i try and find some official info on it... Cant find it... I realy REALY realy realy REALY dont get it, luring is a MMORPG strategy as old as friggin AC

And its banned in PW?! WTH?!

Some people are arguing semantics, and it seems misinformation and false assumptions are being spread as a result. Unless you are somehow luring an enemy through doors or walls or other solid objects through which they normally would not be able to go, or are fighting them in a way that makes them mechanically incapable of fighting back (i.e. not simply kiting them or fighting them at range), then you should not have anything to worry about.

markillian

surtr wrote: »

Some people are arguing semantics, and it seems misinformation and false assumptions are being spread as a result.

So why don't admins make an official announcement of what the specific bugs/exploits are so that people won't have any misinformation?

False assumptions could easily be avoided if there was an actual official post of what each bug/glitch/trick/exploit was that people aren't supposed to do.

Specgoesemo - Lost City

aftermathrar wrote: »

Just typed/lost a big edit on mine, so I'll just make a second post. After reading the Admin post, which I somehow missed the first time, here's a few other clarifications/questions.

What exactly constitutes a design flaw? Going back to my first post, the fact that 4 classes can safely shoot the miniboss of FB29 a design flaw? It certainly gives them a small advantage over barbarians and blademasters trying to kill that same miniboss. Before you get around to patching it, would you require that players step into the range of the miniboss before engaging it, just so that it always has a chance to attack back? And would you ban if someone was reported as standing outside of its max range?

It seems very wrong to me that players can't be rewarded for exploring new strategies and tactics in your game, and possibly finding ideas that confer marginal benefits when compared to the "intended" way, but can just pay money and get hugely unfair advantages over all the other players. In such an environment, skill or knowledge about the game mean nothing, and many more players should fell put off by this than by a veno luring a boss early or killing a boss that gives exp/rewards worse than if you were to not kill that boss and just fought regular mobs.

I hear some complaints about how high level play is all about "zen parties" and I'm worried that even though I read many guides for all characters and try to figure out the best way to do things, that i'll be left behind because I don't want to invest all my money, in addition to my time, into doing dungeons impossible without charms.

Certainly, bugging that boss is a gltich and should be fixed just because of the absurdity in concept, but it seems as though this has been a well-known problem for quite some time, and how are you going to decide who needs banned? i helped out someone with the end of that boss, and just thought that the pet was actually tanking, not finding out until after that it was bugged. Should I have fear of losing my account?

I'm exaggerating of course, and probably blowing this up out of proportion, but vague ToS statements and subsequent poor handling of bugs (like that money bug that lasted a few hours, although I really don't know enough to comment on it further) will just alienate players from your company and lead to endless cries of foul play from players too lazy to find counter strategies or other ways to play on their own.


Edit: rar @ Ultima, good points. Class advantages or simply playing smarter shouldn't count as unfair advantages to other players. Bringing skill or knowledge to a game isn't grounds for banning.

aftermath & ultima, thank you so much for that last paragraph to sum it all up. I'm so glad to know I'm no the only person in this game that says using class advantages to your....advantage...and playing smarter should not be a bannable offense! however, the boss not attacking back bug, aslthough it is a serious exploit, as i said before, game flaw, if GM's don't like it, fix it, any other mmorpg staff would agree with me on that [seeing that..well..thats exactly what they do].

Drussella - Sanctuary

surtr wrote: »

Some people are arguing semantics, and it seems misinformation and false assumptions are being spread as a result. Unless you are somehow luring an enemy through doors or walls or other solid objects through which they normally would not be able to go, or are fighting them in a way that makes them mechanically incapable of fighting back (i.e. not simply kiting them or fighting them at range), then you should not have anything to worry about.

tnx surtr. But thats still lame. If you want a boss to be attacked in a certain area, you script it that way. Common you can do it

Lol, often i'm other games i tell ppl to RTFF (Read The "Fine" Forum COUGH).

Here i only started seeing trouble today after i first started to read the forum.

Poor venos that turn lv 40 and have to go kill that boss and use airpet and have no idea that that boss isnt supose NOT to do dmg. Like that lv 100 thing we have to kill in our lv 20's that dies of a few physical hits... That a exploit to? .... How do we know what is and what is not a exploit?


Sigh, i wish i never started using this forum...b:surrender

ultima999

surtr wrote: »

Some people are arguing semantics, and it seems misinformation and false assumptions are being spread as a result. Unless you are somehow luring an enemy through doors or walls or other solid objects through which they normally would not be able to go, or are fighting them in a way that makes them mechanically incapable of fighting back (i.e. not simply kiting them or fighting them at range), then you should not have anything to worry about.

This raises a very important question.

1. From your quote, it means that if a venomancer is pulling the boss in FB29 through the door, then it constitutes bug exploitation because it shouldn't be able to pass through the door normally. This can result in a ban of the account.

2. That will also mean that if you walk around in many of the dungeons and aggro the monsters behind a wall, making them pass through the solid wall and attack you (as well as your party), this is also a bug exploitation as per #1 above.

In the two scenarios, one is using a class' skill ie: sending the pet to attack to lure the monster through a solid wall/door; the other is using your own character to move in proximity luring the monsters through a solid wall. Both of them clearly violate the same principal - luring monsters through a solid wall.

So if case 1 is bannable, then case 2 must also be bannable to be fair.

Is that logical?