Wizards build

senovit · August 2008

You can wear light armor while keeping current with your weapon level.

3 int, 1 agi, 1 str every level is the build.

ark · August 2008

senovit wrote: »

You can wear light armor while keeping current with your weapon level.

3 int, 1 agi, 1 str every level is the build.

Yup. You even end up with a few extra points every now and then, too. So, those can be used for additional Con, if you want.

ayrwyn · August 2008

ooooh ty...i love the idea of getting away from those stupid robes XD

quilnar · August 2008

Whether the light armor build will grant a bonus crit rate or not I don't know, but I have heard of this rumor during my time in PW-MY. I played a pure INT mage there so this time around I'll probably be trying AGI/light armor to see what the fuss is all about. If anything the huge increase in physical defense will be most welcome.

ark · August 2008

At endgame, the total additional crit bonus for light armour is 7%. Decent, no?

koz · August 2008

Light armor mages are junk. You'll regret it endgame if you do.

ark · August 2008

Not true at all.

7% extra crit + 1.7k extra defense selfbuffed(light build) is better than

37.5 extra damage per hit(pure int build). 4Int=1 mgAtk, so 150INT bonus=37.5mgAtk extra per hit.

Can't ya see that?

senovit · August 2008

That's base attack. Higher int also leads to a higher multiplier when calculating your magic attack from the base m.atk of your magic weapon. Not sure what the formula is though. I remember back when I compared around level 65 with another fox of the same level who was an int/con, my m.atk was around 400 or so lower.

ark · August 2008

Huh. Well, could you look into this more? I'd very much like to know for sure if pure INT is better for DD than light build. That way, I can just use a CON robe build until endgame(easier to level).

seawolf · August 2008

I can't tell you which bulid is better overall but I just did a quick comparison. 270 INT vs. 370 INT. 270 is typical of light or CON build for 90. 370 is lower than fully pure INT. 400+ for pure INT but that 100 difference in INT translated to about 750-800 matk difference with just a regular +4 weapon and average rings.

koz · August 2008

Light armor builds are only good for mid level pks (50s,60s,70s). After that they are junk. Going light build means you will have no points for con at all, if you were to put points into con you wouldn't be able to use your same level weapon. Relying on 7% crit is pretty much a lost cause. A robe wizard with physical defense waist adorn and necklace can achieve the same pdef as a light armor wizard. The robe build would then have room to pump more points into con and int which means lots more damage. Senovit is right about magic multiplier. It sure doesn't add only 37 damage or whatever. A robe build can easily 1 hit a light build with a doom skill without a crit.

senovit · August 2008

That's where I'll differ my stance from yours. Light armor doesn't get good until past level 70 or so, when you can actually be using equipment long enough to justify getting good statted bonuses and having a decent crit rate. I personlly would not suggest leveling with a light armor build, since you can kite physical mobs, brush off magic mobs and only have to worry about getting help for archers.

The light armor build defenses aren't spectacular by any means, and you'll still take about 300 damage per shot from mobs (at level 80) whether they're magic or physical. That basically means a robe build which will take maybe 400-500 damage from a physical attack with high hp will be better than a light armor build that takes 300 damage from both with low hp, and the +3% crit or so you have in your 50's isn't enough to justify it.

Light armor really does shine after you start getting +hp equipment though. While it's true that a light armor will still take heavy damage from normal magic... it's also true that in a robe build physical spikes will hurt, a lot. One lion's roar followed by a few seconds of attacking is enough to kill most robes =|

Oh, and also. Adorns can in no way make up for the defences light armor gives. A level 81 quest reward adorn I have gives +192 p.def, and a level 72 necklace I use gives +171. Combined that comes to +363. My level 80 light armor allecret gives 537 defense(base) and my level 80 robe gives 124. Physical adorns can't evne match up the defense from just that one change in armor, let alone 4.

koz · August 2008

senovit wrote: »

That's where I'll differ my stance from yours. Light armor doesn't get good until past level 70 or so, when you can actually be using equipment long enough to justify getting good statted bonuses and having a decent crit rate. I personlly would not suggest leveling with a light armor build, since you can kite physical mobs, brush off magic mobs and only have to worry about getting help for archers.

The light armor build defenses aren't spectacular by any means, and you'll still take about 300 damage per shot from mobs (at level 80) whether they're magic or physical. That basically means a robe build which will take maybe 400-500 damage from a physical attack with high hp will be better than a light armor build that takes 300 damage from both with low hp, and the +3% crit or so you have in your 50's isn't enough to justify it.

Light armor really does shine after you start getting +hp equipment though. While it's true that a light armor will still take heavy damage from normal magic... it's also true that in a robe build physical spikes will hurt, a lot. One lion's roar followed by a few seconds of attacking is enough to kill most robes =|

Oh, and also. Adorns can in no way make up for the defences light armor gives. A level 81 quest reward adorn I have gives +192 p.def, and a level 72 necklace I use gives +171. Combined that comes to +363. My level 80 light armor allecret gives 537 defense(base) and my level 80 robe gives 124. Physical adorns can't evne match up the defense from just that one change in armor, let alone 4.

One +9 physical amulet/adorn gives ~1k physical defense. +12 gives around 1400 physical defense. Makes up for the light armor.

senovit · August 2008

Ok, sure, +12 gives 1400 pdef. So now all a light armor has to do is +12 two magic defense adorns and voila. Instant robe-like defense while still having more hp due to light armor giving more at +12 than robes at +12, as well as having more of a crit %. Or they can simply +12 two physical defense adorns and the robe still can't catch them.

Let's discuss other stupid things like which weapon would be best +12'd and outfitted with grade 12 soulstones.

zethus · August 2008

The crit rate at any level isn't enough to justify reducing average damage for pve...

senovit · August 2008

I think a 5% jump is fairly significant, but that's just me. Survivability would justify reducing your damage. From what I've seen the difference in magic attack is about 10-20%.

Now, I'm not advocating that using light armor as a wizard is either a good or a bad decision, I'm simply saying using statements such as "+12 adorns will make a robe user equivalent in defense to a light armor user" is stupid. At least I can admit that a light armor user would have less damage than a full int user, but at least I don't try to justify it by saying a light armor with a +12 weapon could deal as much damage as full int.

Most mages put all their spare points into con anyway. It's pretty much your choice between 6:3:1 int:con:str or 6:2:2 int:agi:str. Full int is stupid, as you have no hp and no p.def.

koz · August 2008

senovit wrote: »

Ok, sure, +12 gives 1400 pdef. So now all a light armor has to do is +12 two magic defense adorns and voila. Instant robe-like defense while still having more hp due to light armor giving more at +12 than robes at +12, as well as having more of a crit %. Or they can simply +12 two physical defense adorns and the robe still can't catch them.

Let's discuss other stupid things like which weapon would be best +12'd and outfitted with grade 12 soulstones.

Thats why I said +9 first to make it more realistic. Thanks for reading and understanding my full post :rolleyes: 2 +12'd magic defenses is not enough to make up for a robe. That is why magic defense tends to run higher than the physical defenses, because magic does more damage

Imagine that! If you +12 light armor, who cares if it gives more health lol. The extra points on an int mage usually goes into con which will make up for that lost health. So therefore you will have more damage and the same amount of health as a light armor user, unless you want to opt out of the damage for 5% more critical.

sealed · August 2008

Go Pure INT Wizard, at first its hard to lvl, but it pays off later, and you can 1 hit players in PvP, if your going group PvP'ing or wars, always have a friend warrior or werabeast in front of you to tank your opponent so you can spike damage him/her.

Wizards are amazing at war actually, warriors aoe stun everyone, and wizards wipe the stunned players out.

sealed~

senovit · August 2008

koz wrote: »

Thats why I said +9 first to make it more realistic. Thanks for reading and understanding my full post :rolleyes: 2 +12'd magic defenses is not enough to make up for a robe. That is why magic defense tends to run higher than the physical defenses, because magic does more damage Imagine that! If you +12 light armor, who cares if it gives more health lol. The extra points on an int mage usually goes into con which will make up for that lost health. So therefore you will have more damage and the same amount of health as a light armor user, unless you want to opt out of the damage for 5% more critical.

It doesn't matter that you also included +9. You also included +12 as part of your example and therefore that's the obvious weak point that I'll zero in on. If you wanted to make it realistic, you should have just left it at +9 alone and not thrown in a ridiculous statement about +12.

Also, what build are you using?

If all the extra points on the int mage go into con, then your damage is exactly the same as a light armor mage. Health, as you say, would be equivalent. Defences would not. If you pure int, you'd have at most a 20% damage increase over light armor while having horrible hp. Sorry, but you can't have both equivalent survivability and higher damage.

Let's take a look at some equipment, shall we?

For argument's sake, we'll use hh90 green.

Light armor Chest: 657 p.def, 1020 m.def
Light armor Pants: 563 p.def, 875 m.def
Light armor Wrists: 282 p.def, 440 m.def
Light armor Boots: 375 p.def, 585 m.def
Total: 1877 p.def, 2920 m.def

Magic armor Chest: 171 p.def, 1530 m.def
Magic armor Pants: 146 p.def, 1315 m.def
Magic armor Wrists: 73 p.def, 655 m.def
Magic armor Boots: 98 p.def, 795 m.def
Total: 488 p.def, 4295 m.def

Difference: Light armor has 1389 higher p.def. Magic armor has 1375 higher m.def. So what you're telling me is, a p.def difference of 1389 can be made up with two adorns, while a m.def difference of 1375 cannot?

GG, don't bother responding.

sealed · August 2008

senovit wrote: »

It doesn't matter that you also included +9. You also included +12 as part of your example and therefore that's the obvious weak point that I'll zero in on. If you wanted to make it realistic, you should have just left it at +9 alone and not thrown in a ridiculous statement about +12.

Also, what build are you using?

If all the extra points on the int mage go into con, then your damage is exactly the same as a light armor mage. Health, as you say, would be equivalent. Defences would not. If you pure int, you'd have at most a 20% damage increase over light armor while having horrible hp. Sorry, but you can't have both equivalent survivability and higher damage.

Let's take a look at some equipment, shall we?

For argument's sake, we'll use hh90 green.

Light armor Chest: 657 p.def, 1020 m.def
Light armor Pants: 563 p.def, 875 m.def
Light armor Wrists: 282 p.def, 440 m.def
Light armor Boots: 375 p.def, 585 m.def
Total: 1877 p.def, 2920 m.def

Magic armor Chest: 171 p.def, 1530 m.def
Magic armor Pants: 146 p.def, 1315 m.def
Magic armor Wrists: 73 p.def, 655 m.def
Magic armor Boots: 98 p.def, 795 m.def
Total: 488 p.def, 4295 m.def

Difference: Light armor has 1389 higher p.def. Magic armor has 1375 higher m.def. So what you're telling me is, a p.def difference of 1389 can be made up with two adorns, while a m.def difference of 1375 cannot?

GG, don't bother responding.

Owned

What were you two arguing about??

sealed~

senovit · August 2008

Uh, I don't even know. Something about comparing light armor defences/hp/damage output with robes.

koz · August 2008

senovit wrote: »

It doesn't matter that you also included +9. You also included +12 as part of your example and therefore that's the obvious weak point that I'll zero in on. If you wanted to make it realistic, you should have just left it at +9 alone and not thrown in a ridiculous statement about +12.

Also, what build are you using?

If all the extra points on the int mage go into con, then your damage is exactly the same as a light armor mage. Health, as you say, would be equivalent. Defences would not. If you pure int, you'd have at most a 20% damage increase over light armor while having horrible hp. Sorry, but you can't have both equivalent survivability and higher damage.

Let's take a look at some equipment, shall we?

For argument's sake, we'll use hh90 green.

Light armor Chest: 657 p.def, 1020 m.def
Light armor Pants: 563 p.def, 875 m.def
Light armor Wrists: 282 p.def, 440 m.def
Light armor Boots: 375 p.def, 585 m.def
Total: 1877 p.def, 2920 m.def

Magic armor Chest: 171 p.def, 1530 m.def
Magic armor Pants: 146 p.def, 1315 m.def
Magic armor Wrists: 73 p.def, 655 m.def
Magic armor Boots: 98 p.def, 795 m.def
Total: 488 p.def, 4295 m.def

Difference: Light armor has 1389 higher p.def. Magic armor has 1375 higher m.def. So what you're telling me is, a p.def difference of 1389 can be made up with two adorns, while a m.def difference of 1375 cannot?

GG, don't bother responding.

Rofl. Do you not take into account all the extra mdef that you missed when you add your points into agility and str? Or are stats just invisible now? You also don't add the +int those robes have that the light armors do not.

But you can just go and have fun with your light armor build. Don't cry when I kill you though.

No need to respond. You don't have to grace me with your almighty presence.

kthanxbye.

senovit · August 2008

Is that the game you want to play? Okay, I'll go along with it. I could simply say that you're ignoring the added str that pushes up physical defense while you ranted on about how I overlooked int, but instead I'll play along.

Let's say player A uses a pure int build. That amounts to 9 int 1 str every 2 levels.

Let's say player B uses a full con int build. That amounts to 6 int 3 con 1 str every 2 levels.

Let's say player C does some hybrid thing. That amounts to 7.5 int 1.5 con 1 str every 2 levels.

Let's say player D uses a light armor build. That amounts to 6 int 2 str 2 agi every 2 levels.

Again, using level 90 with base stats only as a reference point.

Player A has 49 strength, 406 int, 5 con.

Player B has 49 strength, 270 int, 136 con.

Player C has 49 strength, 337 int, 69 con

Player D has 94 strength, 270 int, 5 con.

Now then.

Here's where things get a little complicated, try to keep up. Magic defense is calculated by adding up base elemental defense from the armor, set against a multiplier. This multiplier is somehow related to int and level, although people aren't really sure what the exact formula is as of yet. However, let's take a look at my own personal experiences.

My light armor werefox has 2135 base metal defense coming from just equipment. This amounts to 3333 metal defense after level and int multipliers. Going off what Elissie has posted on the formulas regarding p.def, we can make the assumption that the game devs used the same formula for calculating m.def. The formula then, would look a little something like this: Base M.def + Equipment M.def * Int multiplier + Con multiplier = Total magic defense.

Base M.def gets calculated through a formula sort of like this: [Int ]/4 +[Con-5]/3 = Base. M.def. Feel free to test the accuracy of this, but this is what I found to make sense and match up with my own caster's m.def.

Again going off the formula Elissie discovered for the relation between str and p.def and changing it to be between int and m.def, I assumed that the multiplier would be 1 + Int/X, X being a certain constant. In my bits of testing by equipping and unequipping certain armors, I couldn't get the exact number down, as it seems con also impacts both sets of defenses in its own way. However, X seems to be around 400-600. Just to give you the benefit of the doubt, I'll set it at 400 so as to give Int a bigger impact.

Player A would have an m.def directly proportional to 1 + 406/400.

Player B would have an m.def directly proportional to 1 + 270/400.

Player C would have an m.def directly proportional to 1 + 337/400.

Player D would have an m.def directly proportional to 1 + 270/400.

So, by ranking the amount of m.def each one has, A > C > B = D. Still with me? Let's move on. A is a completely junky build. No one in their right mind would pure int unless all they're planning to do is hiero grind or something and run away everytime something aggros them.

We can scrap B. Your whole argument centers around having more int than a light armor build so as to increase magic defenses as well as damage, and B has equivalent int.

So, I can only assume that you were searching for that happy medium, in other words the build you are advocating, since you wouldn't say it yourself, must be C.

Now let's compare C and D.

C would have an m.def propportional to 1 + 337/400, while D would have one proportional to 1 + 270/400

For you non math-inclined people, this comes out to a multiplier of 1.8425 for build C while D gets a multiplier of 1.675.

Again, let's look at the hh90 armor I posted.

Robes has 4295 m.def

Light has 2920. With 2 m.def +9 adorns, which, as you say, grant 1k defence each, that number jumps to 4920.

Putting these into the multipliers, a robes user gets 7913 mdef while a light armor with two +9 m.def adorns gets 8241. Light armor with two +9 adorns can not only match a robes user, they can exceed it.

Any other piece of irrelevant info you'd like to argue about with me? =|

koz · August 2008

First off

1. I said that phys defense amulets/waist adorns get that much defense. Magic defense amulets/adorns get less defense than if you would plus a physical one.

2. I didn't ignore strength. You already have 50 str to use your equipment so the extra 50 str doesn't add that TONS of def. Rather you get roughly 150 stat points that you didn't put into agility/strength that you could use elsewhere.

3. Most of your post is just based on assumptions/theories so how are they relevant if you don't know 100% ? I can easily assume equations as well.

4. Robes are in the game for a reason. Why would they be in the game if light armors are better in every way/shape/form for caster classes?

~ciao

senovit · August 2008

1. Physical and magical amulets get the same number of defenses as long as the magic amulet has all 5. I'm not sure what level of amulet you were +'ing, but anybody with half a mind would obviously get a magic amulet with all 5 defenses, whether molder or HH.

2. The difference in builds C and D that I listed is only 50 int as well. Yet you found it signifcant enough to mention that. The MAXIMUM difference you can have at level 90 is 130 int, which ends up being a pure int build, which destroys any mention you have made that a robe mage would have more hp than a light armor mage. Please, list what build you're speaking of, because it seems to me that you're alternating between a min int min str rest con mage when talking about a robe mage's hp and a pure int mage when talking about a robe mage's defense and damage.

3. These theories are close enough in approximating defences, and were even biased in your favor. If you wish, come up with a theory of your own that calculates int in relation to magic defence. Try to bias it even more towards yourself. Good luck getting one that fits with your approximations.

koz · August 2008

senovit wrote: »

1. Physical and magical amulets get the same number of defenses as long as the magic amulet has all 5. I'm not sure what level of amulet you were +'ing, but anybody with half a mind would obviously get a magic amulet with all 5 defenses, whether molder or HH.

2. The difference in builds C and D that I listed is only 50 int as well. Yet you found it signifcant enough to mention that. The MAXIMUM difference you can have at level 90 is 130 int, which ends up being a pure int build, which destroys any mention you have made that a robe mage would have more hp than a light armor mage. Please, list what build you're speaking of, because it seems to me that you're alternating between a min int min str rest con mage when talking about a robe mage's hp and a pure int mage when talking about a robe mage's defense and damage.

3. These theories are close enough in approximating defences, and were even biased in your favor. If you wish, come up with a theory of your own that calculates int in relation to magic defence. Try to bias it even more towards yourself. Good luck getting one that fits with your approximations.

Your reasoning is so funny. It makes for a good lol. I've already tested both builds, maybe you should as well. Then you will see the difference. It's become quite apparent that you've already set yourself on "light armor is the 1337" build. Differences are minute.

Keep trying though! You'll find something soon!

senovit · August 2008

Oh? Do tell then, how much magic defense would a +9 adorn that's the same level as the p.def adorn you use in your exmaple give? I would like to learn from you =]

However.. you've yet to address my major concern. Which build are you talking about? You claim there's a 150 difference in int, but that's only possible at level 100+ as pure int, which leaves you no con. Yet you also claim that a robes mage would have more hp than a light armor. I will ask you very directly what I've been trying to get you to say for the past few posts, since you seem to be unable to see the question.

Edit: I see you edited your post. You must have checked it out and found out that an m.def adorn +'d gives the same defence increases as a p.def adorn +'d? I should have quoted your post, now mine doesn't make sense :P

Edit2: Oh my, you edited it again. I've tested neither build, and I've yet to give my opinion at all on which I think is better. I simply zeroed in on your statement that a robe mage could match a light armor mage in p.def while a light armor mage could not match a robe mage in m.def.

koz · August 2008

senovit wrote: »

Oh? Do tell then, how much magic defense would a +9 adorn that's the same level as the p.def adorn you use in your exmaple give? I would like to learn from you =]

However.. you've yet to address my major concern. Which build are you talking about? You claim there's a 150 difference in int, but that's only possible at level 100+ as pure int, which leaves you no con. Yet you also claim that a robes mage would have more hp than a light armor. I will ask you very directly what I've been trying to get you to say for the past few posts, since you seem to be unable to see the question.

Edit: I see you edited your post. You must have checked it out and found out that an m.def adorn +'d gives the same defence increases as a p.def adorn +'d? I should have quoted your post, now mine doesn't make sense :P

I'm assuming a level 100 character. 100 points into agility and 50 points into str. Take 100 of those points and put them into con and there is 1000 more HP.

Edit 2: I'm also assuming being a mage which has a 100 or 150% def bonus, seeing how this is the wizard thread.

senovit · August 2008

koz wrote: »

I'm assuming a level 100 character. 100 points into agility and 50 points into str. Take 100 of those points and put them into con and there is 1000 more HP.

Edit 2: I'm also assuming being a mage or priest which have their own phys defense buffs.

Very nice. So basically as a light armor mage you have 300 int, 100 agility and 100 str. 100 of those points goes into con, that backs up your hp claim sufficiently. 50 of those points goes into int. However, your previous statement of "150 more int" is now nullified. Magic defense multiplier will now be only affected by the +50 int, the same as how the physical defense multiplier for a light armor mage will be affected only by +50 str, which you disregarded previously. So, I'll ask you to clarify this. Why is the 50 str difference too small to make a difference in p.def when the 50 int is significant to you?

Yes, a mage has p.def buffs. But since they all affect base defense with the same percentage, we don't need to discuss those, and need only look at base defense.

koz · August 2008

senovit wrote: »

Very nice. So basically as a light armor mage you have 300 int, 100 agility and 100 str. 100 of those points goes into con, that backs up your hp claim sufficiently. 50 of those points goes into int. However, your previous statement of "150 more int" is now nullified. Magic defense multiplier will now be only affected by the +50 int, the same as how the physical defense multiplier for a light armor mage will be affected only by +50 str, which you disregarded previously. So, I'll ask you to clarify this. Why is the 50 str difference too small to make a difference in p.def when the 50 int is significant to you?

Yes, a mage has p.def buffs. But since they all affect base defense with the same percentage, we don't need to discuss those, and need only look at base defense.

Those are 2 completely different builds. One is a con and one is pure int build.

Edit: I'm also assuming other characters who wear light armor, not another mage. I didn't know if that was made clear or not. I tested this against an archer. So take into account the 100% defense bonus.

Wizards build

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