How to rescue wizzies

Arenaceous - Lost City

Since this forum is dead, I just thought I might ask. What do you think could be done to make the wizzy class competetive again? What skill changes?

Let me start:
Essential Sutra boost: Costs 1 spark, duration bumped to 10 sec, cooldown 30 sec.

PS. IK that is never gonna happen, but let us dream.

MagicSkry - Morai

Stuns. I think the stuns coud help. If the stone rain could have 100% stun chance (at the beginning!) it could be fine.

Toliman - Raging Tide

Arenaceous - Lost City wrote: »

Since this forum is dead, I just thought I might ask. What do you think could be done to make the wizzy class competetive again? What skill changes?

Let me start:
Essential Sutra boost: Costs 1 spark, duration bumped to 10 sec, cooldown 30 sec.

PS. IK that is never gonna happen, but let us dream.

Since our DPH is small (in comparison with other Arcane classes), then we can increase our DPS by less channeling time or more crit only.

"Essential Sutra boost" is one of the possible solutions.

I say about PvE.

Stuns there are useless in 90% of fights.

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide

I've already said this on another thread and will repeat in here.

Wizard exclusive passive that reduces channeling.

Or something that increases channeling while being under attack (like Purify Spell) or while using spells. Ok this one is asking too much.

b:avoid

Fail_BM - Raging Tide

Passive magic penetation. Your skills ignore certain % of magic resistance of your target.

Arenaceous - Lost City

I like the channeling passive... 2% per level with 22% for lvl 11. 25% for Sage and 2% crit for Demon.b:laugh

eirghan

I dont mean to rain on anyones parade here but wizards are ridiculous op at high levels with decent gear. No improvements needed. Ask any big name wizzies on your server.

Actually when i read the title i thought for sure i would be reading a post from a squad cleric trying to figure out how to keep a wizzy alive because it is too op and keeps stealing aggro and dying.

Toliman - Raging Tide

eirghan wrote: »

I dont mean to rain on anyones parade here but wizards are ridiculous op at high levels with decent gear. No improvements needed. Ask any big name wizzies on your server.

Actually when i read the title i thought for sure i would be reading a post from a squad cleric trying to figure out how to keep a wizzy alive because it is too op and keeps stealing aggro and dying.

If Wizard has OP gear, when other squad members have not, then it is not because Wizards are OP, but because of OP gear.

Arenaceous - Lost City

eirghan wrote: »

I dont mean to rain on anyones parade here but wizards are ridiculous op at high levels with decent gear. No improvements needed. Ask any big name wizzies on your server.

Actually when i read the title i thought for sure i would be reading a post from a squad cleric trying to figure out how to keep a wizzy alive because it is too op and keeps stealing aggro and dying.

Oh we got some of the best wizzies on the server in our guild. Talked to one of them yesterday. 20k+ hp, 50k pdef in full buffs. Still gets one shot by same geared sins from stealth.

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide

eirghan wrote: »

I dont mean to rain on anyones parade here but wizards are ridiculous op at high levels with decent gear. No improvements needed. Ask any big name wizzies on your server.

Actually when i read the title i thought for sure i would be reading a post from a squad cleric trying to figure out how to keep a wizzy alive because it is too op and keeps stealing aggro and dying.

Either you don't wizard or you only face the ones who out gear you. b:bye Nice try.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

The problem wizzies have is a lot of their DPH comes from mdef debuffs, like spark and undine, as we all know with primal passives everyone has 80% base mdef as an unpurgable buff. Though I'm slightly unsure on how exactly it works so someone correct me;

Base mdef + passive mdef, and only the base mdef gets reduced when debuffed?

So classes with amps like Sins sage subsea (50% damage taken increase) and seekers def lvl reduction are loving it and classes like wizards, sage archers (SE), and sage venos are nerfed by this.

Arenaceous - Lost City

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The problem wizzies have is a lot of their DPH comes from mdef debuffs, like spark and undine, as we all know with primal passives everyone has 80% base mdef as an unpurgable buff. Though I'm slightly unsure on how exactly it works so someone correct me;

Base mdef + passive mdef, and only the base mdef gets reduced when debuffed?

So classes with amps like Sins sage subsea (50% damage taken increase) and seekers def lvl reduction are loving it and classes like wizards, sage archers (SE), and sage venos are nerfed by this.

Yea basically this. -130% fire debuff from undine spark doesn't do much nowadays. And that's just the offensive part. Defense wise it's not much better.

Colum - Raging Tide

Wizards do need some kind of tweak. There's one major problem with the wizard class - no one makes new wizards, or when they do they ragequit them very early. I hardly see any non-r9rr wizards anywhere on RT.

koryn7

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Wizards do need some kind of tweak. There's one major problem with the wizard class - no one makes new wizards, or when they do they ragequit them very early. I hardly see any non-r9rr wizards anywhere on RT.

Agreed. I rarely see them unless they are r9rr...and I know many, including myself who have had original wiz mains and changed to another class such as mystic or stormbringer. I think one of the reasons why people get frustrated and quit wiz early is because of the slow-*** channeling. The r9rr ones have excellent channeling because of the gear adds. T3 wrists are the only piece that gives channeling and you would probably have to reroll a lot to get channeling on a t3 weapon. And now, seeing stormbringer throwing around spells while they run while you are stuck sitting there channeling some skill for 4-5 secs, it's annoying. Another reason is certainly because their debuffs are rendered less effective with primal passives.

Suggestions to improve wiz besides channeling:

1. Elemental shell should lose the metal defense add (so only fire, water, and earth) and last 8 seconds instead of 4 with a 25% chance instead of 10% chance to puri.

2. Change divine pyrogram into the fire version of stormbringer's moonblade. That would rock...

3. Essential sutra is fine the way it is, except make it upgradable to sage/demon. Sage has a 25-50% chance (depending on soulforce possibly) to instantly reset the CD and demon gets a 50% chance to only cost one spark.

4. Completely rework manifest virtue to where it is worth the two sparks. Perhaps make it into a nuke. No idea...but it's basically worthless the way it is. Single sparking is better...

5. Elemental invocation should do more damage.

That's all I can think of for now.

GimmeSnuSnu - Dreamweaver

b:dirty wizard forever

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide

koryn7 wrote: »

4. Completely rework manifest virtue to where it is worth the two sparks. Perhaps make it into a nuke. No idea...but it's basically worthless the way it is. Single sparking is better...

5. Elemental invocation should do more damage.

Manifest Virtue is a buff (not nuke) and costs one spark. You deal more damage overall with it in 30s than the 10s from single Spark. Problem is the 5 minutes cooldown.

Elemental Invocation is a situational PvP skill. Better when used on someone who is being attacked by several people. It amuses me to **** up people's chi in NW. 1v1 is completely useless.

eirghan

Sorry forgot i was coming to an all wizzy qq thread. Ill carry on my way and go back to getting one shot by wizzies who undergear me for 50k....

kuroshin191

I caught myself thinking about wizards yesterday, why we have so few of them? Even fewer good ones. Because wizards are a hard class and people don't often see their utility (which is mainly PvP/TW). I don't think they a hard remake or a total change of skills, but simple things who make them more useful for everything.

Example 1: A useful buff. Since actual buff only work for melee classes and we barely see a good difference, and most of people don't have a clue what is it for.

Example 2: A good debuff. They have 79 skill but it doesn't last time enough, Sins have Subsea, Bms HF, Venos Amp, Clerics and Barbs defense break even Archers have HF. Make something useful for the squad and people will admire it.

On the other hand, i partially agree with who said you need proper gear to feel a difference. If you're going with T3 against R9s you'll feel more useless than Jewelscalen nowadays, find something that you like to do and enjoy it.

PS: I know any of our dreams and suggestions will never happen, since isn't PWE who create new stuff, maybe little ones but not like this. From the bottom of my heart i salute all Wizards, you're an awesome class and i hope the future bring more of you.

XXHotXx - Morai

in a equal gears scenario wizards have 2 things,

ice prison and blade tempest.

wizard has a lesser impact on a fight respect what you'd have with any other class with same gears.


The point is wizard was supposed to be the slowest channelling DPH class,

imo a wiz rework should go in the DPH direction, like that undine strike should be applied\calculated on target's global res value and not on the base res value like every other debuff (value that is therefore improved by passives and buffs)

Evryn - Morai

Wizzies need a decent party buff too. Ice Blade just... doesn't cut it. Pun intended.

Suggestions:
- A primal version of Wellspring that does an AOE mana reserve buff.
- A new ability that recovers mana based on the amount of damage abilities do... kinda like a caster version of Blood Paint. Would affect caster classes only ofc.
- A short term massive elemental resistance buff akin to the BM's Buddas Guard.

Beefing the wiz into a DPH class could be tricky. With the amount of channel reduction, a full channel reduc wizzie could end up dishing out massive amounts of damage by basically negating the drawback. The ability duration would need to largely be in the cast time rather then channel time. But it would give them a different role then just being a Psy who also does fire damage...

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

Wizzies need a decent party buff too. Ice Blade just... doesn't cut it. Pun intended.

Suggestions:
- A primal version of Wellspring that does an AOE mana reserve buff.

If they could make it so even the fighting classes would earn at least 2k mana from it, that would make it a very useful buff. Would kick them up to 4K+ mana, making the token food able to be used without wasting any of it. Which would make it cheaper over-all for them to play the instance. And that would be very worthwhile, for anyone wanting to save money as much as they can.

Toliman - Raging Tide

kuroshin191 wrote: »

I caught myself thinking about wizards yesterday, why we have so few of them? Even fewer good ones. Because wizards are a hard class and people don't often see their utility (which is mainly PvP/TW). I don't think they a hard remake or a total change of skills, but simple things who make them more useful for everything.
...

Hard class ?
No.

Is "their utility ... mainly PvP/TW" ?
Some players think so.

But main side of this game is PvE.

PvP is just addition to game (and not popular, guessing from how low populated are PvP servers).


So low quantity of wizards is dependent from their necessity in PvE.

If they are useless, then they are absent.

Edit:
Look on price of PvP Wizard's skills - they are like trash.

kuroshin191

Yes, they aren't an easy class, i know some people find it easy its like to say i find easy to play as veno cause i'm used to. I lost the counting of how many wizards i saw in PvE and PvP who doesn't know 25% of their skills, even R9 ones. Get an R9 archer for example, you need much less to be considered "OP", the same doesn't happen to Wiz.

PvP is part of the game, even in PvE server i know very few people or small factions who ONLY do PvE stuff. Open PvP is one thing, but TW, NW, Tourney is pvp too.

I do think Wizards are very useful, in PvP or PvE, they have a good pack of skills, although i too want to see changes so it can be more useful, as i said previously.

Evryn - Morai

PvP is what you do when your toon is so strong PvE becomes dull. 's why you hear the endgame folk cry for it on PvE servers.

That there's few wizzies PvPing suggests the class isn't easy to develop up. Which was true in the past, but R9 and the primal buffs kinda changed that. 's probably people enjoy to play Storm and Psy more.

Arenaceous - Lost City

Funny enough, I like my wizard in PvE a lot since I came back. Sure the gear helps, but Primal Glacial + Enough Defense to use chan gear mostly + sage Ults is a lot of fun.

eirghan

Honestly i think the lack of popularity has to do with two things:

1) Try looking at the Character creation screen with fresh eyes. Who would you choose for your toon? A fish dude that can kill with his mind? A shadow ninja? An herbal fae mistress? Or the human.

If you want high DD there are simply more interesting options.

2) Wizards one shot pretty much everything in the start of their leveling. Your friends are all 2-3 shotting mobs their level while you are owning everything. Then suddenly you hit 50 and you die in pheonix valley and that dd isnt one shotting stuff before it can claw you apart. And your friends are surviving better. Thats a tough pill to take.

I dont think the lack of popularity is because people reached end game and went.... Nah. Under powered. This class needs a buff tweak.

I think a lot of people dont care for the old lackluster image of a wizard and those that do find mid-game play a disappointment.

To your other point, (the one that says the only wizards who are winning are the ones that outgear you)
I have no idea what its like on other servers but the wizards i encounter time and again wreck people. The physical defense buff is ridiculous. Especially with purify proc they are an incredible mix of tank and kite to the point that most ha classes have a rough time killing them before they get owned. The only real way to prevent purify proc is through disarm or paralyze, two skills given to the class that most likely dies the most from wizards - - bms. And thats if they can run to the wizard and tank their damage first.

G16 is a whole other story but likely will be the same story given equal gear. A sin will lock a wizard and own them. But a wizard will easily kite and dd a class with melee range cc that cant sneak up on the wizard like a bm, or barb etc.

Lastly, defense passives may play a part in making it harder for wizards to kill people, but we are totally forgetting the other two passives, crit and damage, that help wizards kill others.

Yeah a sin can wreck a wizzy. IF the wizzy doesnt tank or purify. But then a wizzy can wreck a bm. And the circle of life goes on.

Im sorry i just dont see the huge imbalance that warrants a change.

Look up seeker vs wizard pvp for an example. The one i am thinking of shows faceroll vs shadowsedge. Shadowsedge actually slightly outgears faceroll. And still he loses.

Let the QQ BEGIN. Or... Continue.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver

Well to me wizards have an up and down...

The "up" part is the defense and survival. As a wizard if you are smart you can survive pretty much against any class, ofc talking at same level of gear. Between Stone barrier, arcande defense and a smart set up of ornaments or shards to boost barrier, your p.def has to be even or higher than magic defense. Is actually easy to kite and stay alive as a wiz, so i dont think they need help there.

The "down" of wizzies is the offense, between crappy channel and cast, which i dont complain cause im used to it, low damage from skills and weapon, crappy cc skills all by % or crappy duration, and being the only OP damaging skills ultis, is a bit hard to kill many people.

What wizards need?? well i would say 3 things that could even us with the rest of the classes.
1. more spammable aoe's, not 10 like stormbringers, but maybe if Sandfall and other similar skill with 8-10-15 sec copoldown would be enough to make us more of a threat on group situations. you know after the BT, wiz cant kill tons and tons all the time. Hailstorm is pure **** damage.
2. this might just be dreaming... but a 30 att level buff, like to counter seeker one, that would make us slow, but hard hitters again.
3.FUN SKILLS!!! i want sleep that dont have 2min cooldown, or longer seal, or reversion that work in TW to pull a cata back, celestial skills with less cooldown. Wizards end up using same skills because of crappy cooldown mostly

I know we wont get anything interesting on updates, but i can dream, and i still have fun with my noob wizzie over any classb:laugh

Toliman - Raging Tide

Good, that along with Wizards are absent Assassins, Blademasters and Barbarians according above responses of some players.

Is it so ?

If not, then your idioms like:
"Wizards are for PvP", "PvP is more than PvE for players",
"It is because now popular new classes" are wrong.

XXHotXx - Morai

eirghan wrote: »

Honestly i think the lack of popularity has to do with two things:

1) Try looking at the Character creation screen with fresh eyes. Who would you choose for your toon? A fish dude that can kill with his mind? A shadow ninja? An herbal fae mistress? Or the human.

If you want high DD there are simply more interesting options.

2) Wizards one shot pretty much everything in the start of their leveling. Your friends are all 2-3 shotting mobs their level while you are owning everything. Then suddenly you hit 50 and you die in pheonix valley and that dd isnt one shotting stuff before it can claw you apart. And your friends are surviving better. Thats a tough pill to take.

+1, wizards are good early game because at that point we do have the best DPH (at endgame wizards have the lowest base matk value among AA classes) and we were good @ pre-NH scenario (pre-passives pre-cards)

I dont think the lack of popularity is because people reached end game and went.... Nah. Under powered. This class needs a buff tweak.

I think a lot of people dont care for the old lackluster image of a wizard and those that do find mid-game play a disappointment.

how can we talk about mid-game when wizard is a 5-6 years old class? Theorically most of the wizards (left) are supposed to be endgame, balance for us should be based upon our endgame, not our midgame

To your other point, (the one that says the only wizards who are winning are the ones that outgear you)
I have no idea what its like on other servers but the wizards i encounter time and again wreck people. The physical defense buff is ridiculous. Especially with purify proc they are an incredible mix of tank and kite to the point that most ha classes have a rough time killing them before they get owned. The only real way to prevent purify proc is through disarm or paralyze, two skills given to the class that most likely dies the most from wizards - - bms. And thats if they can run to the wizard and tank their damage first.

wait, what? have you ever tried to debuff an endgame bm to test the damage? do you realize you won't land a "real" debuff over a mag marrow + bell spam?
Disarm Paralyze Purge destroy wizards, and when a wizard is paralyzed or purged or disarmed our survivability is completely neglected, we don't have psy will or fox form or nature's barrier or plume shield....
Also yea we have ONE blink (while other classes have 2), that's all, wizards aren't a mobile class and that highly affects our positioting in the fight, that therefore highly affects the ability to stand still and channell our long ch+cast time skills

for instance, if you are 2 busy trying to kite and reposition in pvp, you won't have time to land damage skills, so our damage is totally neglected simply because of our outdated DD mechanics (long ch+cast + non mobile class)

I would even accept that, if our skills would've been actually nukes, but those are not (anymore).
You blink and kite to turn around land a gush that will deal 2k, then blink and kite... that's all



G16 is a whole other story but likely will be the same story given equal gear. A sin will lock a wizard and own them. But a wizard will easily kite and dd a class with melee range cc that cant sneak up on the wizard like a bm, or barb etc.

have you ever been in a decent mass pvp? if the wizard gets AAd by bm or barb, then gets paralyzed, he is dead

Lastly, defense passives may play a part in making it harder for wizards to kill people, but we are totally forgetting the other two passives, crit and damage, that help wizards kill others.

you are forgetting that wizard has a +15% crit shield now, that makes the crit passive basically useless since 40 to 50% crit rate wont be that much of a deal. also with all the new anti crit damage buffs and pills its even less significant
the passive damage skill, is global you know, gives an advantage on who uses skills instead of auto-attacks, and besides archers none uses autoattacks anymore, also the damage passive skill absolutely didn't scale in proportion with the amount of damage reduction coming from the post-lvl 10 resistances passive skill value

Yeah a sin can wreck a wizzy. IF the wizzy doesnt tank or purify. But then a wizzy can wreck a bm. And the circle of life goes on.

in which world wizard can wreck the bm, its the other way around lol

Im sorry i just dont see the huge imbalance that warrants a change.

If you don't, you didn't experience endgame mass pvp

Look up seeker vs wizard pvp for an example. The one i am thinking of shows faceroll vs shadowsedge. Shadowsedge actually slightly outgears faceroll. And still he loses.

seeker can easily outtank, outCC, outDPS and even outDPH a wizard, seeker can reach 180 def levels and 35k hp, how do you faking kill something like that w\o DPS neither DPH ?

Let the QQ BEGIN. Or... Continue.

uwotm8

eirghan

Balance should be based on end game. But you are wondering why the wizard is an unpopular choice and i believe people drop out at mid game which is why you dont see many end game wizards.

Questioning my mass pvp experience changes nothing. Im starting to wonder if this is a server difference and wizards here are just better on Sanctuary. Look up YouTube videos by doods, gingerbreaddd, faceroll, darkabyssal. Appearances by BigBrawls, merrili, bele_wiz is good to note as well. Only a portion of our pvp wizards population is truly end game. You will see that they have no problem repeatedly levelling opponents and in fact rarely die. It sounds like wizards maybe need to learn to kite more.

I dont actually believe ill change anyones mind here but i am surprised at the amount of wizards who want insanely overpowered buffs that would in fact tip the scale way over to the point that everyone would just make a wizard.

I think im gonna go start a qq thread. Us seekers want tidal :c

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide

Whiney time.

Wizards:
- the knockback doesn't work on PvP. Should be updated to do so. Seriously.
- the heal takes too long to be useful mid battle.
- control skills are mostly gamble. Not reliable at all. Only Force of Will and Mountain Sieze are the reliable ones, the latter being mostly impractical to use.
- 1 teleport... Ok.
- 1 pushback shield: a charm when you get stunned and poked by melee.
- Whisper, Shell, Undine, Miasma... Just sad.
- Ice Prison has uses, but the cost is too high for a 12s on-and-off 30% amp + freeze.
- Blinding Blaze: I find it more reliable than Stone Rain and Hailstorm. Despite the high cost.

I miss my Sandstorm.

Whiney time over. b:surrender