test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Demon or Sage Strombring?

2

Comments

  • demansfairydemansfairy Posts: 453 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Ok I been seeing this a lot on this and other threads and I don't get it. Why are ppl praising sage searing moonlight? Yes you get 15chi per tick but you guys seem to be forgetting it takes 150 chi just to use. This means it takes 13 seconds just to get your chi back. I mean I can see it being ok if you're just gonna perma amp in a pve run so you don't need to rechi up between bosses but still kinda lame for a sage upgrade since you cant do anything else and the amp effect ends once you drop the skill. If you need to get chi a better option would be skill spamming or lunar guidance spam even.
    full +12 SB, currently lv 105 105 105
  • bloodedone87bloodedone87 Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Ok I been seeing this a lot on this and other threads and I don't get it. Why are ppl praising sage searing moonlight? Yes you get 15chi per tick but you guys seem to be forgetting it takes 150 chi just to use. This means it takes 13 seconds just to get your chi back. I mean I can see it being ok if you're just gonna perma amp in a pve run so you don't need to rechi up between bosses but still kinda lame for a sage upgrade since you cant do anything else and the amp effect ends once you drop the skill. If you need to get chi a better option would be skill spamming or lunar guidance spam even.

    I dont think its a good option to use searing moonlight in pv.
    Yes the skill amp the dmg but its meant to be used on bosses not on group of mobs.Even if you use it on group of mobs it will work only on 1 mob. the others will be uneffected.
    Its not an aoe like HF, or SubSea.
    giphy.gif



  • demansfairydemansfairy Posts: 453 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I dont think its a good option to use searing moonlight in pv.
    Yes the skill amp the dmg but its meant to be used on bosses not on group of mobs.Even if you use it on group of mobs it will work only on 1 mob. the others will be uneffected.
    Its not an aoe like HF, or SubSea.

    Um...why did you bring up pv? I never said anything about pv 0_o
    full +12 SB, currently lv 105 105 105
  • bloodedone87bloodedone87 Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Um...why did you bring up pv? I never said anything about pv 0_o

    oh yes, its pve( player vs environment)b:beatupb:beatupb:beatup
    i should try and not read fast sometimes. seems im missing letters
    giphy.gif



  • caius775caius775 Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    It's good because of combo's you can do with it, my ideas is lazering while other skills is on CD setting up for another 20ish seconds of burst damage. So at least you amping squad's damage and setting up for what i said above that's just one of the many things you can do. Combine Sage super cell not costing chi if second strike procs u have 30 second gap to use it again. 20 seconds of increase skill dmg while transformed....Then sage climate change comes into play not costing chi makes sure u set your orbs up also the fast chi gain you can you'll be have 3 sparks by then before you lose Cell's second strike effect, triple then cell again for an extra 20 seconds of increase skill dmg go back to searing. Forgot to mention you can add avatar of the storm and or summon for extra dmg. There is a ton of heavy chi combos you can abuse.
  • Sylvae - SanctuarySylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    caius775 wrote: »
    It's good because of combo's you can do with it, my ideas is lazering while other skills is on CD setting up for another 20ish seconds of burst damage. So at least you amping squad's damage and setting up for what i said above that's just one of the many things you can do. Combine Sage super cell not costing chi if second strike procs u have 30 second gap to use it again. 20 seconds of increase skill dmg while transformed....Then sage climate change comes into play not costing chi makes sure u set your orbs up also the fast chi gain you can you'll be have 3 sparks by then before you lose Cell's second strike effect, triple then cell again for an extra 20 seconds of increase skill dmg go back to searing. Forgot to mention you can add avatar of the storm and or summon for extra dmg. There is a ton of heavy chi combos you can abuse.

    Same thing. Super Cell amps the damage of Avatar's damage, and Searing amps it as well. If going against a ? level mob, that works out to a good deal of damage. And by going Searing, you are amping everyone else's damage to decrease the risk of stealing agro as well. Over-all damage for the party this route will be greater than not going Searing, and you are regaining chi while riding out the damage amp from super cell.

    Once the boost ends, you'll have earned back at least as much chi as spent during that time, leading into other combos available during the downtime. If supercell got the proc, you can also end to redo the boost. And since sage Climate Shift costs no chi for sage, we don't have to pre-set and waste amp time to get the right amount of orbs to once again get amp proc from supercell. Almost every orb set will work, the only difference will be if downburst will be needed before or after Shift, which just speeds up supercell as a worst case scenario anyways.

    And since our Avatar lasts 15 seconds over 12, it means our Avatar will be dealing damage closer to the max end of damage amp from Searing as well. Trust me, Sage is definitely being under-estimated by everyone clamoring how great demon is. And most of the ones they say are great, really just have no application despite how great they sound on paper. 3% healing from Searing? Even at 20k health that's only 600 healing per tick. Whoopty ****. Outside of cube rooms for survival and such, where would that even matter? Any where that requires a group, will have healing as well. And with that much health, not really going to be hurting before a CHB hits.

    I planned on sage before skill release since the chi skill was better than taunt, and eruption was better as well. If demon had better skills when they came out, it's just a schism away from getting there. But sage skills are just way too good for higher end play with the gear progression and final sets I plan on getting.

    EDIT: Something else to ponder; most thought Searing only amped its own damage. Anyone thought if they are making the same mistake on the wording for sage saying "every time you damage the target, you gain 15 chi" I notice it doesn't specifically state every time Searing deals damage, and Avatar hits twice at a time. Might not work, but how's that chi angle looking if it does work out like that? :)
  • sondoksondok Posts: 91 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Re-reading the skills and this thread I'm unsure. I don't pvp much but I might assist my guild and TW if I get off of work. This is my new main but I'm not getting r9 again(and I only have 1st cast r9 on my ea anyway) so max I'll do is lvl 101 x3 and nirvana 2nd cast. I think I'll still do demon. I like the damage.
    lvl 101 ea from Lost City.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I planned on sage before skill release since the chi skill was better than taunt, and eruption was better as well. If demon had better skills when they came out, it's just a schism away from getting there. But sage skills are just way too good for higher end play with the gear progression and final sets I plan on getting.

    This is pretty much the only reasoned logic I've seen so far from the sage side. Which is pretty disappointing.

    As a broad generalisation then (as we seem to love those) does everyone agree Sage is more geared towards PvE/Support and Demon is more focussed on PK/PvP?

    I've actually stopped playing my SB for now, it's a lot of fun in Phoenix Valley and Delta but nowhere near lives up to the hype for me. Might change my mind in the future but retiring it for now.
    DarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
    mypers.pw/1.7/#114350

    DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
    mypers.pw/1.7/#136481

    youtube.com/darkskiesx
    Tempest-dw.shivtr.com
  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The only upsides for sage I keep reading are about chi.

    Since I very actively PvPed all sort of player and gear states over the last month I can surely say that I don't have any chi problems in PVP and thats w/o sage nor demon skills.

    The chi factor in PvE is also neglicable...I mean cmon guys...why do you think I'm using Chi Syphon and always carry around 300+ white teas? So no chi trouble even as a demon there, not at all.

    On the other side...I'd really love most of my skills to have a longer duration/range/proc chance pretty much. The demon skills alone will enhance the SB effectiveness in PvP by ~40% I guess. Just name one sage skill that is reasonable in PvP in terms of being better then the demon one. Oh snap xD there is none. I figured even before we knew the skills that demon would be superior. The slight disadvantages in PvE get by far overshadowed by the effectiveness in PvP. Lunar Blessing, ESD and Ice Bullet alone make it worth being demon.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • ZentDreigon - Raging TideZentDreigon - Raging Tide Posts: 456 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Ok, since no Sage SBs are even trying to defend their culti with statements other than" chi chi chi", which is NOT a problem for the class, I, a Demon SB, will point out the skills I like about sage. Except for the chi ones.

    Downburst: 25% channeling increase. Yes, more damage dealt in less time, but also more mana consumption. With Sage Eruption this sound very nice.

    Faster channeling on 4 quick chan skills are not that OP. Seriously. 0.2 or 0.3 less channel is very meh imo. Unlike the Demon channel reductions which are on high channeling skills (Call Lightning -0.5 and Supercell 0.9).

    The extra 35% on Cumulonimbus and Snowstorm are nice indeed, but those only happen if all charges are the same. Setting those straight might be too costy during battle.

    Searing Moonlight. I think it's ridiculous to waste 150 chi to recover chi. Might as well spam Lunar Guidance for it (which btw has 25% chance to give 1 spark when Sage). Searing Moonlight for chi is lame excuse. It is also ridiculous to use this on targets that are not moving.


    Well, that was short. Now for the Demon pros. Not all, just some.

    Coudburst: reduces elemental resistances by extra 5%. Kinda evens with sage masteries. Kinda.

    Ice Bullet: higher minimum stun. Control.

    Lunar Guidance: spammable extra 15 defense levels. Bulk up.

    Lunar Blessing: extra 2s immunity. Invincible!

    Frigid Thunder: slow can be countered by Holy Path in PvP and won't do much on fast mobs in dungeons so I prefer Demon's freeze tough some mobs can't be frozen.

    Discharge: extra second might be deadly if target moves too fast.

    Churning Vortex: Yes, I'm talking about this. extra 3m to keep people/mobs in check. This is one hell of a skill to use while at mid range from melee targets.

    I won't use Clamate Shift's chance to give spark as excuse for going Demon. Might as well waste more chi than gain. I might have skipped a few, but I'm good for now.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    > A demon is driven by desire, pure desire, that cannot be stopped by reason or logic. - Mo Zun
    > Believing in demons doesn't mean believing in evil. Demons are not necessarily an evil thing. - Chin Wuming
  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Ok, since no Sage SBs are even trying to defend their culti with statements other than" chi chi chi", which is NOT a problem for the class, I, a Demon SB, will point out the skills I like about sage. Except for the chi ones.

    Downburst: 25% channeling increase. Yes, more damage dealt in less time, but also more mana consumption. With Sage Eruption this sound very nice.

    Faster channeling on 4 quick chan skills are not that OP. Seriously. 0.2 or 0.3 less channel is very meh imo. Unlike the Demon channel reductions which are on high channeling skills (Call Lightning -0.5 and Supercell 0.9).

    The extra 35% on Cumulonimbus and Snowstorm are nice indeed, but those only happen if all charges are the same. Setting those straight might be too costy during battle.

    Searing Moonlight. I think it's ridiculous to waste 150 chi to recover chi. Might as well spam Lunar Guidance for it (which btw has 25% chance to give 1 spark when Sage). Searing Moonlight for chi is lame excuse. It is also ridiculous to use this on targets that are not moving.


    Well, that was short. Now for the Demon pros. Not all, just some.

    Coudburst: reduces elemental resistances by extra 5%. Kinda evens with sage masteries. Kinda.

    Ice Bullet: higher minimum stun. Control.

    Lunar Guidance: spammable extra 15 defense levels. Bulk up.

    Lunar Blessing: extra 2s immunity. Invincible!

    Frigid Thunder: slow can be countered by Holy Path in PvP and won't do much on fast mobs in dungeons so I prefer Demon's freeze tough some mobs can't be frozen.

    Discharge: extra second might be deadly if target moves too fast.

    Churning Vortex: Yes, I'm talking about this. extra 3m to keep people/mobs in check. This is one hell of a skill to use while at mid range from melee targets.

    I won't use Clamate Shift's chance to give spark as excuse for going Demon. Might as well waste more chi than gain. I might have skipped a few, but I'm good for now.

    Yap, very much this. Cept for Cumulonimbus and Snowstorm, those are weak as sht. I avoid using them. Too slow and the dmg they can deal is even lower compared to the any movement skill while being in reaper form which is a disqualifier for me. If they'd do double dmg they'd be reasonable...but not like this. Not even in sage.

    But you just said it. For end-game players there is absolutely 0 reason so far to go sage. None. That might change with primals...but hell they gotta be freaking loads better compared to demon to make a difference.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • caius775caius775 Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    It's not the fact that chi is a issue. It's the fact that you can heavily abuse your chi skills. It's all about playstyle. Sage churning + avatar + frigid for the reason mystics love their sage gale force over demon. Sage frigid I believe is better for a class that can kite. Why? Sage has a constant slow for 70% and still keep it's chance to freeze. Demon makes freeze 70% with a weak constant slow of 30. If demon procs yay, if it doesn't a few classes can still catch you. Sage will always slow and is effective they can't escape churning. It's a win win combo also sage churn pulls faster aoe lock for multiple targets.

    That's just one of many creative ways to abuse sb's bag of tricks. Electro is nice so nice that a extra second is honestly not needed hitting r9 users for 7k tick either they will die or stop either way they are dead no need to explain how to abuse electro on stationary targets. I personally like constants over chance it's all opinion but don't think sage can't compare to demon in my eyes demon is single target advantage. Sage is 5v1 advantage spamming powerful aoes and trapping people. So much more chi opens up more abuse to make the stuff I'm talking about happen without recoil.

    Edit: I'll elaborate a bit. First getting the short stuff out the way Nightshade passive discovered there is a Dmg reduction if your within 5 meters of a SB reduces both magic and physical attack by quite a bit. Going off assumption Sage boost defensive numbers the hidden said to be 30% reduction I would imagine would be boosted as well?

    Electro, making it lvl 11 "might" make the skill affected by atk n def lvls like soul absorb needs to be confirmed although both sage and demon didnt interest me as much because it got the job done.

    Searing: Cost 150 chi to cast regains chi in 13 or so seconds by its self its meh but combo it in pve its good >_> why? Super, transformation, avatar of storms + sexy clone DD mode once its gone sear boosting squad dmg until CD is done THIS alone I was tanking bosses from +8 g16 UVD cleric. Because lvl 11 skills not released yet I couldn't spam this combo as quickly as I wanted reason why sage opens this door. I can only imagine this skill used in pve in pvp the times i tested seemed pointless just holy path out of range or interrupt. The healing factor in pve is just.....might as well not use it for demon unless theres no healer but still shed light on a use for a 3% heal.

    Super Cell: Abuse it. if it procs for a second strike "30 second gap" <----this is huge added that it doesn't cost chi means chaos. Scenario in nw because of overkill on chi pool you can do this. A Group headed your way oh no what should I do? Avatar(15 secs) + churn(12 sec) Frigid will slow the group enough to not escape churning's pull every 2.4 secs which means they cant escape avatar and your and you allies hell fire of aoes. YES they can holy path away etc. The way I see you have successfully caused chaos and scattered the enemy. Or if they do stay in the web get rekt by cell(s)

    Rest of the skills is increased dps means faster kill in between charm cooldown mp consumption is an excuse easily countered. Demon wins in those other areas but I dont see the point of a extra chance to stun when we can run and attack and have sooooo many options to shut people down devouring darkness screws a lot of the slow castors over. Forgot to mention moonblade debuffing for EP or Hf effect. love it. Summary demon for 1v1 control sage for more spam of ALL ultis without delay for more crowd killing/controlling with no recoil. My opinion I say its good because i already semi tested all the above tactics and WISHED I could spam it without delay or wasting pots even pots and genie a 4th combo isnt possible with pot/genie CDs.
  • ZentDreigon - Raging TideZentDreigon - Raging Tide Posts: 456 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I ran a few tests. Any class with running/teleporting skill or Holy Path can escape Churning with little effort. Unless you mark them with Discharge. b:sin

    Slow speed becomes mostly useless. For PvE: thumbs up. For PvP: nope.


    Demon has wider area with Tidal, Deafening, Surge, and Churning. Sage has no wider area on any skill.

    Searing Moonlight is not meant for static targets. Damage won't increase if target doesn't move. That combo of yours is gone along with the 150 chi you'll take 2 minutes to recover while casting this. I didn't do the time-to-refill math.

    When Avatar appears the group you mentioned will scatter. Only the dumb ones will stay being Churned back.

    As for casting Cell... If you manage to end the casting, wizard style spinning from moonrise to moonset, it might work as you described.

    Extra stun or freeze will do wonders if saved for when Darkness and Discharge are in CD. You can easily lock in place any opponent. The whole class is a mockery to movement. Stormies can move freely while others are impaired of movement or punished by moving.


    I hope the Moonblade amp doesn't overwrite other more powerfull ones. I can see the rage.

    I also hope Lunar Guidance doesn't overwrite anything. I can also see the rage. Though I highly doubt they'd do something to work like that. Right? b:surrender



    And, Joe, I agree Cumulonimbus and Snowstorm are two things I haven't found any use for yet. I just mentioned them because in future discussions they will be mentioned as "Sage advantage".
    b:avoid
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    > A demon is driven by desire, pure desire, that cannot be stopped by reason or logic. - Mo Zun
    > Believing in demons doesn't mean believing in evil. Demons are not necessarily an evil thing. - Chin Wuming
  • Sylvae - SanctuarySylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    How the **** can people not realize walking speed is good enough to walk out of demon churning's larger radius if they can beat sage's? Seriously, 5 *.6 = 3; it's not hard. And that's not even getting in depth to other factors being ignored.

    Unless you're talking about a one time all out AoE spike in TW (haven't bothered testing churning, no need and it took 3 seconds to do the math the day demon/sage skills posted), there's no actual reason to bring that up as an advantage.

    Because if they made it out of sage's radius, they are already walking in the right direction.
  • caius775caius775 Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I ran a few tests. Any class with running/teleporting skill or Holy Path can escape Churning with little effort. Unless you mark them with Discharge. b:sin

    Slow speed becomes mostly useless. For PvE: thumbs up. For PvP: nope.


    Demon has wider area with Tidal, Deafening, Surge, and Churning. Sage has no wider area on any skill.

    Searing Moonlight is not meant for static targets. Damage won't increase if target doesn't move. That combo of yours is gone along with the 150 chi you'll take 2 minutes to recover while casting this. I didn't do the time-to-refill math.

    When Avatar appears the group you mentioned will scatter. Only the dumb ones will stay being Churned back.

    As for casting Cell... If you manage to end the casting, wizard style spinning from moonrise to moonset, it might work as you described.

    Extra stun or freeze will do wonders if saved for when Darkness and Discharge are in CD. You can easily lock in place any opponent. The whole class is a mockery to movement. Stormies can move freely while others are impaired of movement or punished by moving.


    I hope the Moonblade amp doesn't overwrite other more powerfull ones. I can see the rage.

    I also hope Lunar Guidance doesn't overwrite anything. I can also see the rage. Though I highly doubt they'd do something to work like that. Right? b:surrender



    And, Joe, I agree Cumulonimbus and Snowstorm are two things I haven't found any use for yet. I just mentioned them because in future discussions they will be mentioned as "Sage advantage".
    b:avoid

    You misunderstand me. I already went over that stuff. Only way you can test my churning example is to use searing on a target (pvp) to see the effect of sage frigid im talking about since it slows by 80% I've already tested players cant escape unless they holy path or tele. Although it may have been designed for a moving target its still useless for that purpose. Searing to me is good for doing "Good" damage on bosses while waiting for you CDs to finish so at least your amping squad's dmg at the same time this is sage where speaking you'll have over 3 sparks (waiting for transformation CD) by then for sure. As i said im speaking from a sage perspective. In pve I've already tested the loop and its highly effective as im able to steal aggro from g16 players besides aps and barbs. Sage just allows to use the loop infinitely without delay, You can even add triple spark to the combo and that will out DD demon by miles in a pve sense with the searing, ulti loop spam.

    For PvP I already tested the slow effect ( Using searing that available to me at the time) It does work well with churning have to waste resources to escape. Reason why sage frigid is good cause of the slow and still keeps is chance to freeze asks vet sage mystics for their view. Also in group pvp people immediately dont just scatter the second u drop avatar Have done it countless times myself you have enough time to drop churning and frigid to set a trap. Sage speaking the trap would be very effective reelin is 2.4 instead of 3 and a 70% slow not everyone would just jump out of. Mystic being my main Its sad how many times i catch people with sleep plant trust me not everyone is quick to respond to this stuff Group pvp wise.

    A extra stun is nice but i brought this up before being the only class that cast and run. a Complete lock for what reason? Yeah you lock a ranged class but still you can dance in and out of peoples range (abuse that tactic more with morai skill) for that OR get up close for the 30% dmg reduction your gonna be tanking hits for dayz simply Unless its a long drawn out fight. Lol but that's still hard to imagine since this class kills "Very quickly due to electro being OP" abuse knockback and even churning can proc insanely high dmg if you have a lot spirit. completely locking someone down defeats the purpose of being able to kite in the first place in a way I rather boost damage potential.

    Comu and Snowstorm im going there.... I've practiced enough to easily set up all ice./thunder charges for the dmg boost It hits pretty hard as if you were in transformation but harder. Why use it? Well TM is on CD those two skills will obviously hit the hardest. It becomes more of a factor when they release the lvl 100 skills and is able to debuff 145% metal and water. I WILL ADMIT I dont use it that often in 1v1 due to being more busy kiting and doing other things but when skills release Oh trust i'll use it more often.

    Anyway, playing so far the way I see class played just fine without sage or demon add ons. Yet I had a few things on the wishlist after me and others discovering some things and you find little things to abuse to maximum I look to sage for in theory should be able to open doors to what I want to do. I play in a sequence of skill orders. Manipulating the charges perfectly with debuff duration etc etc. Demon make shortcuts which is fine but it doesn't sound to combo oriented tbh. Besides basic stuff. I was going to go demon for months but me playing other games with this mechanic and playing the class myself there are needs and wants. I chose the needs over wants. Edit: Of course this all opinion ultimately we will see what happens when it releases. Also a gamble of who gets the better primal skills lol. We shall see. Looks can be deceiving is all im same that rule also applies to us sage believers lol.
  • Sylvae - SanctuarySylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    caius775 wrote: »
    -Snip-

    Eh, they're also thinking 3/2.4 would be the actual numbers for proc. Really it'd need to be tested for how it procs (is it a 1 second proc for the actual reel, followed by the 3/2.4 or is the 3/2.4 going while they are being reeled.) Advantage if it runs while reeling would butt dumb obviously be sage.

    Is there a time spawn during which an attempt to use a skill would cause it to rubberband? That again would benefit sage as it further reduces reaction time before sage re-procs. Also, reaction time; which benefits sage.

    Frigid Thunder is one of the best to use if going group, but you will need a specific range of -chan for it to work right. Too fast and it might go off before everyone is grouped up. To little and they are already scattering. Leaps will be a pain, and testing to see if immune to movement impairment prevents it useful.

    Check to see if you can lock people mid-air with OI and such. Would make for an evil combo, and might allow KBing them straight up. If so, would combo great with BM doing Tyrseus.
  • bloodedone87bloodedone87 Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Why people are writing so much textb:shocked I cant read so much textb:shocked
    Anyway I am going sage. No , I dont have another reason except that i like more sage skills than demon ones.And since I am not a pvp player( except NW and TW if i end in a faction doing TW) I dont think it will hurt me going sage.
    heh, I would have gone sage even if I would have pk all day longb:chuckle
    giphy.gif



  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    As I'm mainly a 1on1 PvPer I will try to prevent using anything that forces me to stand still (if possible) and demon benefits this greatly.

    If Sage primals really take the cake then meh. 35 gold. I couldn't care less. Ty PWE as switching culti is so friggin easy these days <3
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • demansfairydemansfairy Posts: 453 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    As I'm mainly a 1on1 PvPer I will try to prevent using anything that forces me to stand still (if possible) and demon benefits this greatly.

    If Sage primals really take the cake then meh. 35 gold. I couldn't care less. Ty PWE as switching culti is so friggin easy these days <3

    Are there any skills in game that primal version is dependent on the sage/demon version? Least from what I've seen primal version has it's own buff and the sage/demon bonus just carries on from lv 11.

    ex: glacial shards from psy class both get +2 seconds, chill of the deep from sin both get +5 att level, etc
    full +12 SB, currently lv 105 105 105
  • Boomz - HarshlandsBoomz - Harshlands Posts: 516 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    sage is better in everyway, i'm sorry but everything i've read so far is a bunch of bs. Everything deals more damage, some skills a **** ton more damage, you will never run out of chi, and yes endgame demon you will run out. those 15 def lvs are useless cause you gotta stop moving and cast that thing again every 12 seconds, it will break all your combos and you lose your distance advantage. Stun? lol? anyone with half a mind can set up to always have the 5 second stun. this is also true for any of the ball combinations. I've already done 100s of pvp battles and i always get the ball count i want whenever I want it. The range demon gets doesn't help you much because thats effect range not cast range, aka you still need to be at the smaller requisite cast range to get the effect, useless. Sage has more defense via passives, triple spark defense, more long term cc ability, and more outplay potential. Not to mention you can combo supercell, extreme poison, moonblade and one of the 35% skills together to be able to have a chance to zerk crit (actually that combo would do 440% of base). Demon can't afford to do that all the time cause they don't have the chi to. The channeling, cc, damage, defense, outplay potential, chi (don't forget sonic boom is a spammable 20% chance for 30 extra chi as well + all the lwoer chi cost skills). On top of all that our demon form lasts longer, we have shorter cooldowns, our cyclone will actually keep people in cause it procs every 2.4 sec, and end game 55% chanelling is rediculas, there will not be a such thing as a slow skill.

    edit: someone said you can compare 5% amped damge to 5% resist lower if all 3 balls? who ever said that is severely wrong. Also there are many sage skills like moonsoon that will deal 5% more, + another 10% base + another 5000 damage. That skill alone is an example of how much stronger sage it. That skill will deal roughly 30% more damage than its demon counterpart.

    edit 2: in sage searing moonlight is actually useable becuase of its chi refund this is great against barbs and seekers, especially good in tw for cata barbs. your demon version is the only useless one.
    ░░░░███████]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
    ▂▄▅█████████▅▄▃▂ cause i can't make art, so i made
    ◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤this awesome tank.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] 1 shot king. LV 150 FSP bosses hit for 3m. Top Player hit record: 652,656.
  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Oh well...I dunno what kind of PvP you have been doing but I am sure as hell that it wasn't endgame PvP. Anything below endgame doesn't matter anyways.

    Those so mighty, chi saving skills in sage are mostly way way too slow to use them in fast-paced battles. If you' honestly use Searing on my Barb for example I'd just use holy path and you get rekt some seconds later. Searing Moonlight is not a PvP skill. Ofc it could do great in some situations like slowing and amping flag pullers in NW...and thats that.

    I still am unsure how you wanna rebuilt all that chi that will push you that much above demons while constantly running around? Sonic Boom alone won't do. Heck what you say sounds so nice in theory and would be amazing while playing against slow *******...but any good and skilled player would just rek you if you try that funny stuff.

    It isn't about all the shiny effects that are written on skills. It's mostly about the usability and in terms of real DDing and playability Demon skills far exceed Sage ones. The sage ones that really are a bit better compared to the demon ones are those which you'd rarely use anyways. Effect range is what is important. Cast range does not really matter as this can and will get compensated by pure movement speed.

    I also am confused as to why the 15 def lvl buff isnt that good? You can always find time to rebuff this one as it goes really quick. Depends on situation tho.

    If you go sage or demon doesn't really depend on actions in PvE. It doesn't matter there. Imho if you wanna go endgame with your SB and you are a skilled player and indeed are fighting other skilled players and not complete nubs then you gotta be demon judging from the info we got so far.

    The only things I miss when going demon are the sage spark and the masteries.

    Ijs...fight against skilled barbs for example and then show me how much chi you rebuilt when the friggin barb is standing right next to you all the time. XD here I go again thinking that there are actually that many skilled barbs around :D or BMs..or skilled players in general. Time will tell is the only truth I can give.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • demansfairydemansfairy Posts: 453 Arc User
    edited January 2015

    The only things I miss when going demon are the masteries.

    .

    Why? Aren't demon masteries better end game? I was under the impression that masters add to your damage multiplier ( 1+Mag/100+mastery) if that the case at end game you should have at least 900 magic resulting in 10x multiplier. Sage would give 10.25x while demon would give 10.2x. The increase damage from demon to sage would be (1-10.25/10.2)*100% = .49% more damage. at end game you should have, lets say about 33% crit base and demon mastery adds 1% more crit so (1-1.34/1.33)*100% = .75% (assuming 1% crit = 1% more damage on average) which is a hell of a lot more increase % wise, though about the same in practice. Of course the more magic you have, the worst sage mastery is and more crit you have, worse demon mastery is, someone correct me if I'm wrong please.
    full +12 SB, currently lv 105 105 105
  • Sylvae - SanctuarySylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Why? Aren't demon masteries better end game? I was under the impression that masters add to your damage multiplier ( 1+Mag/100+mastery) if that the case at end game you should have at least 900 magic resulting in 10x multiplier. Sage would give 10.25x while demon would give 10.2x. The increase damage from demon to sage would be (1-10.25/10.2)*100% = .49% more damage. at end game you should have, lets say about 33% crit base and demon mastery adds 1% more crit so (1-1.34/1.33)*100% = .75% (assuming 1% crit = 1% more damage on average) which is a hell of a lot more increase % wise, though about the same in practice. Of course the more magic you have, the worst sage mastery is and more crit you have, worse demon mastery is, someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

    Weapon masteries add to multiplier, which is why they add so much compared to magic one.

    Magic masteries amplify the whole multiplier itself.
  • ZentDreigon - Raging TideZentDreigon - Raging Tide Posts: 456 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    sage is better in everyway, i'm sorry but everything i've read so far is a bunch of bs.

    Nice start.
    ... those 15 def lvs are useless cause you gotta stop moving and cast that thing again every 12 seconds, it will break all your combos and you lose your distance advantage.

    Same thing happens when Sages cast their skills with "loads of damage". Gotta stop moving and risk losing advantage. Any measures to hold target in place to cast these can also be used to cast Guidance.
    Sage has more defense via passives, triple spark defense, more long term cc ability, and more outplay potential.

    Forgot to mention the skills. Must be Blood with the extra 1% (OP), Frigid Thunder with the easy to counter 70% speed reduction, and Churning Vortex with the also easy to avoid pull in (even with 2.4s interval). I admit, though, combining Churning with Discharge is very nice to provoke running.

    This is getting repetitive.

    Not to mention you can combo supercell, extreme poison, moonblade and one of the 35% skills together to be able to have a chance to zerk crit (actually that combo would do 440% of base).

    I assume you are saying the damage output from that combo would be similar to a zerk crit. Unless I'm missing something, casters don't have zerk crits.
    ... On top of all that our demon form lasts longer, we have shorter cooldowns, our cyclone will actually keep people in cause it procs every 2.4 sec, and end game 55% chanelling is rediculas, there will not be a such thing as a slow skill.

    Sage Reaper lasts 2 seconds more. Demon one has 5 seconds shorter cooldown. If we consider the abuse of moving skills, Demons has a 3 second extra damage when compared to Sages. Of course, masteries might even that out a bit. But 3s with 300% bonus physical defense still wins.
    Also there are many sage skills like moonsoon that will deal 5% more, + another 10% base + another 5000 damage. That skill alone is an example of how much stronger sage it. That skill will deal roughly 30% more damage than its demon counterpart.

    Oh, man, don't say "many skills" and mention just one. Plus, we already covered this part.
    edit 2: in sage searing moonlight is actually useable becuase of its chi refund this is great against barbs and seekers, especially good in tw for cata barbs. your demon version is the only useless one.

    This skill is situational independent on cultivation. And the beam will reveal your position making you the next target thus making it a dangerous move.

    On a side note, Sage Searing Moonlihght recovers chi faster than Wizard's Primal Glacial Embrace, but costs mana.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    > A demon is driven by desire, pure desire, that cannot be stopped by reason or logic. - Mo Zun
    > Believing in demons doesn't mean believing in evil. Demons are not necessarily an evil thing. - Chin Wuming
  • demansfairydemansfairy Posts: 453 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So now that demon/sage skills have been out for a while, anyone want to flip their opinion on which one is better?
    full +12 SB, currently lv 105 105 105
  • bloodedone87bloodedone87 Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So now that demon/sage skills have been out for a while, anyone want to flip their opinion on which one is better?

    This battle between sage and demon is stupid.
    Always has been stupid no matter what class.
    The better one is the one each player enjoy the most.
    giphy.gif



  • xoinixxoinix Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It's been YEARS since being sage or demon meant something in pvp. It all comes down to gear>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>skills.

    Culti hardly makes it into the equation.

    YOU are playing YOUR stormbringer which means only YOU can decide what culti is "best". b:victory
  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    With perilunar call that pretty much solves any kind of possible chi problem I can certainly day that going demon wasnt a mistake.

    In pve it doesnt matter if you are sage or demon. Not at all.

    Altho in PvP everything is the way I expected it. The increaed range, area and duration of most of demons skills is by far superior to the sage version. Chi doesnt matter, at least I've never gotten chi problems. The increased range of demon churning is superior for mass pvp as you simply reach more ppl. If they stay inside or get pulled in more often does not really matter. Being able to grab as many as possible take the cake.

    The only thing I gotta hand to sage is that you can stay at -25%chan all the time even while being sage sparked. Then again. My windshield does the same as the sage spark so I am not too sad about it. Besides that and sage moonblade which is kinda nice I cant really see any endgame advantage coming from sage.

    Just to mention some skills that are miles above the sage ones:

    Frigid Thunder, Tidal force, Monsoon, Churning vortex, electrostatic discharge, Ice Bullet, Cloudburst.

    You can add to it if I've forgotten something.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • ZentDreigon - Raging TideZentDreigon - Raging Tide Posts: 456 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The only skill I like from Sage is Downburst.

    Demon FTW.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    > A demon is driven by desire, pure desire, that cannot be stopped by reason or logic. - Mo Zun
    > Believing in demons doesn't mean believing in evil. Demons are not necessarily an evil thing. - Chin Wuming
  • caius775caius775 Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I'll take a shot at defending sage since I decided not to band wagon and took a different approach.

    Sage vs demon sage hits harder and have higher dps. In a who stuns who first not counting anti anti stun sage will hit first. Sage can TF more often. Monsoon hits harder. Passive is stronger unknown if it boosts hidden dmg reduction even more someone can test that. Now my favorite, moonblade if it procs curse last long enough for 2-3 more skills. I killed tanky people with it. Snow storm and cumu hits hard, I'm under geared but it stings rather than tickle higher geared folks. Electro can be used more often. Supercell if it procs you can safely respond to any situation within 30 seconds and have a cost free cast for its beneficial effects. Combo room.

    Frigid if used properly just makes up close physical classes even less of a threat. Sage isn't just about chi yeah chi abuse is a valuable but how I see it is more raw power and speed both DD wise and recovery from down time. Demon has some flashy go to skills but remember the turtle still beat the rabbit in a race (lol contradictions) as long as I effectively slay those who challenge me there's no problem.... Also primal isn't released. Tbh playing field is pretty much the same except moonblade its too good and makes a difference
This discussion has been closed.