Eternal question  Sage vs Demon  need thoughts
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The discussion in this thread and some other factors have pointed me towards the demon wizard, it just sounds more like the culti for me. Thank you for the opinions, people.Leader of Cyanure on Valonsurma and a proud member of Vertu
Demon Strength Barbarian 103/103/101
Demon Pure Mag Cleric 102/102/101  Demon 4 APS Assassin 102/102/101  Demon Pure Mag Mystic 102/101/101  Demon Pure Mag Psychic 100/100/93  Demon 4 APSBarbarian 100/100  HAvenomancer 100  DPH Assassin 100  Pure Mag Wizard 100  Demon Pure Mag Stormbringer 96  Demon DPS Archer 94  Sage Vit Barbarian 93  Demon AllPath Blademaster 93  Str Seeker 86  Pure Mag Venomancer 81  Pure Mag Wizard 81  Pure Dex Duskblade 47 
Colum  Raging Tide wrote: »The discussion in this thread and some other factors have pointed me towards the demon wizard, it just sounds more like the culti for me. Thank you for the opinions, people.
lol another one bites the dust. Have fun with your inferior wizzy░░░░███████]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▂▄▅█████████▅▄▃▂ cause i can't make art, so i made
◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤this awesome tank.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] 1 shot king. LV 150 FSP bosses hit for 3m. Top Player hit record: 652,656. 
Colum  Raging Tide wrote: »The discussion in this thread and some other factors have pointed me towards the demon wizard, it just sounds more like the culti for me. Thank you for the opinions, people.
Terrible decision, especially after the introduction of primal passives (Absolute Virtue), the Demon barrier becomes only more useless since returns diminish to **** & can only diminish further with more upgrades, the most hilarious thing is that people are still discussing Demon barrier as if the two other shields mean nothing at all, Sage Pyroshell/Glacial Embrace owns its demon counter parts, and Demon barrier isn't "better" either because of its higher p.def because Sage grants more Earth resistance, not to mention Sage BIDS laughs its *** off compared to Demon, all types of skills have higher base damage for sage & with Master Li's technique + Sage Pyro proc & Glacial Embrace (primal upgraded), I can gain Three sparks in less than 15 seconds during pvp many times, Sage wizards are indubitably superior, but oh well, good luck. 
ZentDreigon  Raging Tide wrote: »The fragility of Sage wizards is said to exist because of their inferior Stone Barrier. I've never done that math (gonna see if I do it some time), but as we can't heal as effectively as other arcane classes I'd say the more defense the better.
I did the math using full T3 armor, cube neck +10 and warsong belt +10.
Primal passive pretty much evens Sage and Demon Stone Barriers, as Ruby said. Sure demon gives extra, but 12% is not worth imo. Even sharding with Darkflames won't present valuable difference between Sage and Demon.
This pretty much scratches Stone Barrier from the main points on deciding the culti and leaves the decision on the other class features.ZentDreigon  Raging Tide wrote: »I picked Demon for the extra defense, more control skills and quicker channeling.
This was before New Horizons, of course.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
> A demon is driven by desire, pure desire, that cannot be stopped by reason or logic.  Mo Zun
> Believing in demons doesn't mean believing in evil. Demons are not necessarily an evil thing.  Chin Wuming 
Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »Terrible decision, especially after the introduction of primal passives (Absolute Virtue), the Demon barrier becomes only more useless since returns diminish to **** & can only diminish further with more upgrades, the most hilarious thing is that people are still discussing Demon barrier as if the two other shields mean nothing at all, Sage Pyroshell/Glacial Embrace owns its demon counter parts, and Demon barrier isn't "better" either because of its higher p.def because Sage grants more Earth resistance, not to mention Sage BIDS laughs its *** off compared to Demon, all types of skills have higher base damage for sage & with Master Li's technique + Sage Pyro proc & Glacial Embrace (primal upgraded), I can gain Three sparks in less than 15 seconds during pvp many times, Sage wizards are indubitably superior, but oh well, good luck.
So you're so pro you know which suits me better fot playstyle? I never knew!
Way to make assumptions why I chose demon. b:bye I don't give a **** about the defense.Leader of Cyanure on Valonsurma and a proud member of Vertu
Demon Strength Barbarian 103/103/101
Demon Pure Mag Cleric 102/102/101  Demon 4 APS Assassin 102/102/101  Demon Pure Mag Mystic 102/101/101  Demon Pure Mag Psychic 100/100/93  Demon 4 APSBarbarian 100/100  HAvenomancer 100  DPH Assassin 100  Pure Mag Wizard 100  Demon Pure Mag Stormbringer 96  Demon DPS Archer 94  Sage Vit Barbarian 93  Demon AllPath Blademaster 93  Str Seeker 86  Pure Mag Venomancer 81  Pure Mag Wizard 81  Pure Dex Duskblade 47 
Colum  Raging Tide wrote: »So you're so pro you know which suits me better fot playstyle? I never knew!
Way to make assumptions why I chose demon. b:bye I don't give a **** about the defense.Colum  Raging Tide wrote: »
Some points I'd like to have covered out:
 Which culti is overall better when it comes to dropping targets quickly
 Chi management (sage seems better but I'd like to know how demon wizards cope)
 Is Sage wizard too fragile with nonendgame gears?
Yes, yes you did give a **** about defense b:bye
You asked for opinions on which culti is *better* & that's exactly what I told you, of course nobody can possibly tell you what *suits* you better?
I am not assuming why you chose Demon nor do I care. Sage is better, whether it *suits* you or not, enjoy your inferior wizard. #Lel 
Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »Terrible decision, especially after the introduction of primal passives (Absolute Virtue), the Demon barrier becomes only more useless since returns diminish to **** & can only diminish further with more upgrades, the most hilarious thing is that people are still discussing Demon barrier as if the two other shields mean nothing at all, Sage Pyroshell/Glacial Embrace owns its demon counter parts, and Demon barrier isn't "better" either because of its higher p.def because Sage grants more Earth resistance, not to mention Sage BIDS laughs its *** off compared to Demon, all types of skills have higher base damage for sage & with Master Li's technique + Sage Pyro proc & Glacial Embrace (primal upgraded), I can gain Three sparks in less than 15 seconds during pvp many times, Sage wizards are indubitably superior, but oh well, good luck.
Having Chi doesn't mean **** when triple spark for wizards is utterly useless these days. As a Demon wizard, I've fought and beaten Sage wizards before, when my opponent had enough Chi to triple spark twice during the fight, and then they promptly died to BT because, you know, lack of P. Def. right there. Sure, go ahead and use Glacial Embrace in PvP, see how far that gets you. People are talking about Stone Barrier because using the other two is what gets you killed in PvP. And before you want to start citing gear differences, I'll just note that in that particular fight, I had maybe +7  +8 refines, while the Sage wizard had full +10  +12 gear, and we were both full R9 3rd, Cube necklaces and everything.
Sage wizards can brag all day about their extra 5% or whatever, but if you don't know how to use your CC, you aren't going to be worth much in any fight. I have no idea why you keep talking about Sage BIDS like it's even worth anything, because if you need BIDS to kill someone, considering how crappy it is now, you could've used any other spell. You know, ones that don't take 2 sparks and 4 seconds to cast, or maybe does better damage, or actually provides a good stun?
Culti isn't going to save you if you have no idea how to play your wizard, and if a particular player doesn't like playing a certain culti, it's not going to help them. In the end, it all comes down to playstyle, but nobody's going to listen to your obnoxious pontification on which culti is "better". Probably because all you can seem to do is compare isolated skills like a skill comparison actually means anything. Man, I sure miss all the real Sage wizards who weren't condescending twits here.
For the record, Colum, Demon wizard probably does better in the purposes you listed. With Primal Glacial Embrace, a wizard is pretty much selfsustainable, and I find that with triple sparks, I need no MP pots at all, even for longer dungeon runs. In PvE, 25% channeling from Demon triple helps kill stuff faster, and that's all I'm fairly inclined to use.
NW is a matter of getting 1 kill, 5 minutes of fighting time, and a lot of points, which comes down to factors other than culti, and doesn't necessarily require a lot of PKing, so both cultis would probably do well either way.
1vs1 is, once again, down to a matter of skill. Sure, Demon wizards have more control skills, which are severely underrated. Don't ever underestimate the importance of Demon Force of Will  can't count how many times, in both PvE and PvP, that 2 seconds less on the CD has saved my ***. I'm sure Sage has its strengths in 1vs1, but most of the control skills for wizards come from Primal/Morai, so Demons would have them too, and I've never played a Sage wizard, so I wouldn't know.
As for Chi management, I don't have much trouble with it, but then again, I don't need or use triple spark in PvP to kill anyone. The first thing about being a wizard, Sage or Demon, is to learn the importance of Chi management. It's true that the big, flashy skills that deal major damage, are the ones that take a lot of Chi, but you don't necessarily need those skills to kill a target. Knowing when and how to chain together a variety of skills to bypass a charm and lock down an opponent's options in a fight, while not consuming too much Chi, is a far more valuable skill than simply knowing how to throw all the big spells against one target and hope they die.
Of course, that's all in PvP. In PvE, you're free to throw on Primal Glacial Embrace when you get it, and waste all the Chi you want.
Having played both my own R9 3rd wizard, and a chan one, I would recommend against getting a channeling set. For chan, you give up magic attack, crit, HP, P. def, M. def, attack levels, defense levels, etc. Not to mention, full chan requires a ****ton of MP pots to sustain the constant barrage. When it comes to chan, it's pretty much an allornothing kind of deal. Sacrificing your belt and necklace for chan is too much of a tradeoff, in my opinion.
Lastly, you're getting an NV 3 +10 set for your wizard. I would honestly have to say, wizards aren't much without R9 3rd. Purify is especially important for a class that has to rely on apoth pots for it otherwise. Of course, R9 3rd is just superexpensive, so yeah, stick to NV 3 if this is just an alt, but I should warn you that you may ultimately find that it's not worth it to gear up a wizard unless you're going all the way. 
Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »Yes, yes you did give a **** about defense b:bye
You asked for opinions on which culti is *better* & that's exactly what I told you, of course nobody can possibly tell you what *suits* you better?
I am not assuming why you chose Demon nor do I care. Sage is better, whether it *suits* you or not, enjoy your inferior wizard. #Lel
No, I do not. I asked about the fragility of a sage wizard because
1. Haven't done math when it comes to to demon vs sage stone barrier in a loooong time
2. I need to know what to expect from the culti on defense aspect
That does not make the defense a factor in my choice, in other words I can choose either of them regardless of which build has better physical defense.
If sage was my choice and I would KNOW to expect that it is significally less tanky than a demon wizard (which it is not apparently but if it was) I'd take that in account with my gameplay. So, no, defense does not really matter more than that in this conversation.
You claim sage is better, yet your only back up for this claim is comparison between few selected skills. You compare skills between skills instead of the whole picture. That is not a very good argument in my eyes, thus not noteworthy.Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »For the record, Colum, Demon wizard probably does better in the purposes you listed. With Primal Glacial Embrace, a wizard is pretty much selfsustainable, and I find that with triple sparks, I need no MP pots at all, even for longer dungeon runs. In PvE, 25% channeling from Demon triple helps kill stuff faster, and that's all I'm fairly inclined to use.
You're glad I didnt reply this post earlier where you had typod my name. b:angry
Yes, that indeed sounds sweet. It all looks good on a paper but it's also good to hear confirmation from the fellow wizards.NW is a matter of getting 1 kill, 5 minutes of fighting time, and a lot of points, which comes down to factors other than culti, and doesn't necessarily require a lot of PKing, so both cultis would probably do well either way.
I am... rather offensive player in NW, no matter the toon. I'd most likely be looking for bridge battles and AOEing the **** out of people... or then chasing after the flag carrier in CTF.1vs1 is, once again, down to a matter of skill. Sure, Demon wizards have more control skills, which are severely underrated. Don't ever underestimate the importance of Demon Force of Will  can't count how many times, in both PvE and PvP, that 2 seconds less on the CD has saved my ***. I'm sure Sage has its strengths in 1vs1, but most of the control skills for wizards come from Primal/Morai, so Demons would have them too, and I've never played a Sage wizard, so I wouldn't know.
As for Chi management, I don't have much trouble with it, but then again, I don't need or use triple spark in PvP to kill anyone. The first thing about being a wizard, Sage or Demon, is to learn the importance of Chi management. It's true that the big, flashy skills that deal major damage, are the ones that take a lot of Chi, but you don't necessarily need those skills to kill a target. Knowing when and how to chain together a variety of skills to bypass a charm and lock down an opponent's options in a fight, while not consuming too much Chi, is a far more valuable skill than simply knowing how to throw all the big spells against one target and hope they die.
Of course, that's all in PvP. In PvE, you're free to throw on Primal Glacial Embrace when you get it, and waste all the Chi you want.
Yeah, I have already noticed a lot of wizard skills use great amount of chi. I will have to practice lot of 1vs1 with my friends and find my way around the targets.Having played both my own R9 3rd wizard, and a chan one, I would recommend against getting a channeling set. For chan, you give up magic attack, crit, HP, P. def, M. def, attack levels, defense levels, etc. Not to mention, full chan requires a ****ton of MP pots to sustain the constant barrage. When it comes to chan, it's pretty much an allornothing kind of deal. Sacrificing your belt and necklace for chan is too much of a tradeoff, in my opinion.
Lastly, you're getting an NV 3 +10 set for your wizard. I would honestly have to say, wizards aren't much without R9 3rd. Purify is especially important for a class that has to rely on apoth pots for it otherwise. Of course, R9 3rd is just superexpensive, so yeah, stick to NV 3 if this is just an alt, but I should warn you that you may ultimately find that it's not worth it to gear up a wizard unless you're going all the way.
Yeah, I do know channeling has its risks, however I would never use that gear as a first set of gear when I have to be able to tank the hits.
Gear is not a problem at all  I have Lunar T3 set which I'm able to use on my wizard whenever I play it since I have multiple casters. I sure wish I did have the coin to put to r9rr my alts but that is not the case, that coin is going for my barbarian.
Thanks for the tips regardless.Leader of Cyanure on Valonsurma and a proud member of Vertu
Demon Strength Barbarian 103/103/101
Demon Pure Mag Cleric 102/102/101  Demon 4 APS Assassin 102/102/101  Demon Pure Mag Mystic 102/101/101  Demon Pure Mag Psychic 100/100/93  Demon 4 APSBarbarian 100/100  HAvenomancer 100  DPH Assassin 100  Pure Mag Wizard 100  Demon Pure Mag Stormbringer 96  Demon DPS Archer 94  Sage Vit Barbarian 93  Demon AllPath Blademaster 93  Str Seeker 86  Pure Mag Venomancer 81  Pure Mag Wizard 81  Pure Dex Duskblade 47 
Colum  Raging Tide wrote: »No, I do not. I asked about the fragility of a sage wizard because
1. Haven't done math when it comes to to demon vs sage stone barrier in a loooong time
2. I need to know what to expect from the culti on defense aspect
That does not make the defense a factor in my choice, in other words I can choose either of them regardless of which build has better physical defense.
If sage was my choice and I would KNOW to expect that it is significally less tanky than a demon wizard (which it is not apparently but if it was) I'd take that in account with my gameplay. So, no, defense does not really matter more than that in this conversation.
You claim sage is better, yet your only back up for this claim is comparison between few selected skills. You compare skills between skills instead of the whole picture. That is not a very good argument in my eyes, thus not noteworthy.
If you are going to compare "cultis", you are asking for direct comparison between skills, obviously no one here can cover the infinite amount of scenarios you could be in & like I said, Sage does beat demon, skillwise, if that's the case, I don't understand how it would lose in the "whole picture", think about it.
and its not late for you to reroll, I will be more than happy to explain to you in detail why Sage IS > Demon., cheers ^^Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »Having Chi doesn't mean **** when triple spark for wizards is utterly useless these days. As a Demon wizard, I've fought and beaten Sage wizards before, when my opponent had enough Chi to triple spark twice during the fight, and then they promptly died to BT because, you know, lack of P. Def. right there
Utterly useless? So after that one scenario where you oneshotted your opponent with BT after his triple spark you deduced that Sage triple spark is "Utterly Useless", yes the extra 30% P.def from Demon barrier which would've provided a whopping 0.51% damage reduction was DEFINITELY the reason why he got oneshotted, he didn't have that ...Lel, don't make fallacious assumptions based on scenarios that are highly subjective, I have had countless fights with Demon wizards who got oneshotted with BT, but I do not use these examples because they mean nothing unless several factors taken into account, including the opponent's gear/skill & many things, AND you're not fighting Wizards with yours all the time too. I am Sage and I know how useful Sage spark is in helping you survive when you're being ganked or being focused in TW.Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »Sure, go ahead and use Glacial Embrace in PvP, see how far that gets you. People are talking about Stone Barrier because using the other two is what gets you killed in PvP.
Yes & Like I said, after the returns diminished to ****, your demon stone barrier gives almost nothing "extra" compared to the Sage stone barrier, so there goes the p.def rant.
Lol wow.... I am very curious to see the type of "PvP" you do, its amazing how quickly to declare skills as "Useless" based on your crappy observations. I am 100% sure you're on the of those Wizards who switch to Glacial Embrace during a fight (vs a Physical class) to gain CHI & then get roflpawned in 10 seconds, then carve it on stone "Err meg gerrdd this so useless, I should've stuck to Stone Barrier!!", it gets you far, if you know how to use it, it is meant to be used whenever you disengage in a fight, to gain CHI before reengaging your target. You can also switch midway without thinking it over & die (and then call it useless)
There are psies & other wizards in the game, vs which Glacial/Pyroshell can be very useful, don't carve it on stone simply because you can't use them effectively.Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »Sage wizards can brag all day about their extra 5% or whatever, but if you don't know how to use your CC, you aren't going to be worth much in any fight.
Yes extra 5%, more than demon, its still better, no? that was the point.
*If you don't CC properly...* I don't know how all of a sudden all these irrelevant claims came into the "Demon vs Sage" comparison, yeah, and if you fight without your weapon, you may not be able to kill your opponent at all xDDD
Were you implying that demon has more CC than Sage? because if you were, then you're wrong, the only thing Demons have *more" in terms of CC is a 20% chance to stun on Stone Rain & a 17% extra chance on hailstorm to freeze. Congratulations.Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »I have no idea why you keep talking about Sage BIDS like it's even worth anything, because if you need BIDS to kill someone, considering how crappy it is now, you could've used any other spell. You know, ones that don't take 2 sparks and 4 seconds to cast, or maybe does better damage, or actually provides a good stun?
Sage BIDS:
Sage version has a 50% chance to empower you for
10 seconds, increasing magic Critical Rate by 30%.
Demon BIDS:
Demon version has a 20% chance to cost no Sparks.
If Sage BIDS procs, it itself has an additional 30% crit chance, paired with my 32% crit chance thats a bloody 62% chance to crit on impact AND provide the crit buff for the next 10 seconds AND if I pair it with Pyroshell its a bloody 77% chance to crit for 10 seconds.
So sage BIDS is useless these days? You must be some very special kind of stupid. Calling the best AOE in game as "useless". rofl
Now read your Demon BIDS's description. Feeling stupid? Good.
There is a thing called Territory War & group PvP, look at the description above & think how USEFUL it would be to crit on an entire group, unlike your Demon BIDS, which is actually futile. Who the **** needs a BIDS for a single target? stop making declarative statements based on your crappy assumptions.Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »Culti isn't going to save you if you have no idea how to play your wizard, and if a particular player doesn't like playing a certain culti, it's not going to help them. In the end, it all comes down to playstyle, but nobody's going to listen to your obnoxious pontification on which culti is "better". Probably because all you can seem to do is compare isolated skills like a skill comparison actually means anything. Man, I sure miss all the real Sage wizards who weren't condescending twits here.
*Culti isn't going to save you if you have no idea how to play your wizard..*...yet again, totally irrelevant, its amazing how you sway from the topic on to these random claims, yes, if you don't know what to do, you will lose, if you fight uncharmed, then may the force be with you, if you undine the target after Soporific whisper, then Lol, oh and lets not forget to wear your gear before a fight! that will also help....YAY
On topic: Sage vs Demon, yes, to compare them both, you do compare the Skills, which does mean a lot since those bloody skills will come into play during your *actual* scenarios, not just me, all Wizards who know anything about PvP say so.
The way you declare everything "useless" (even SAGE BIDS LOLOL), I think you are a condescending twit yourself, and one of those who don't know jack about PvP b:laugh 
You know the difference between us? I'm providing concrete examples of how Demon beats Sage culti in wizards, drawing from my past experiences in PvP and PvE. Maybe if you want to prove the supposed superiority of Sage, you should attempt the same.
I said triple spark was useless for all wizards. I didn't single out Sage specifically. I can recommend some reading comprehension courses if you need some. Triple spark, for a wizard, is a giant marker over the head that says "STUNLOCK ME ONCE THIS GLOWY THING IS GONE, I HATE MY CHI AND I WANT TO GET RID OF IT FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER, YOU GOT 3 SECONDS TO PREPARE IT, DW". You know what I did to a sin that tried to triple on me in the middle of a fight? I channeled Frozen Flame while they were stuck in the immunity, and they died right after coming out of it.
It sure is odd how, when talking about Stone Barrier, you start assuming I'm drawing a comparison between Sage and Demon SB, when I'm not. I'm drawing a comparison in defense between using Stone Barrier and Glacial Embrace in PvP. Perhaps I should've mentioned, but that Sage wizard was using Glacial Embrace, right up until I landed that BT on them.
100% sure, and 100% wrong. I don't use Glacial Embrace in the middle of a fight, ever. Know why? It's because I don't need infinite Chi to kill an opponent, because I know how to use my skills, because I know how to kite and build Chi without having to sacrifice half my P. Def.
Sure, Sage spark can help you survive a gank. Know what else can? Ice Prison, Mountain's Seize. Apoth pots, Expel, Absolute Domain, Windshield. Notice how all those things don't eat up 3 sparks and provide more of a benefit for their cost.
You're seriously going to call BIDS the "best AOE in the game" based on its usage in one specific situation? One that the OP specifically said he wasn't going to use his wizard in? And then you're basing your argument on one spell? Why don't you go test out your supposed "best AOE" against MS or BT? What kind of opponents are you testing on? Equivalentgeared, better, or worse? Are they buffed or debuffed?
Are you even taking into account what's going to happen to a wizard casting BIDS in the middle of a fight? Because I remember a Sage wizard trying to cast it on me before, in mass PvP. Funny that, it didn't work, because when you cast something that giant and flashy in the middle of a battlefield, that takes that long to cast, you're pretty much telling every opponent in the vicinity "INTERRUPT ME NOW PLZ".
Lastly, to compare Sage and Demon, you don't compare individual skills, you compare how each culti's skills work together to provide an edge in certain situations. If you're going to ignore the practical applications of all the skills functioning together, if you can't provide actual examples of how they work together, you're not going to provide an argument that's convincing anybody, you're just a blowhard shouting about an opinion you can't provide logical reason for. Maybe the amount of possible scenarios are infinite, but you can't even be bothered to provide a few.Colum  Raging Tide wrote: »
You're glad I didnt reply this post earlier where you had typod my name. b:angry
Yes, that indeed sounds sweet. It all looks good on a paper but it's also good to hear confirmation from the fellow wizards.
[/COLOR]
You're lucky I'm too nice to complain about how your name is a misspelled English word. b:cry
Note that for infinite MP, Glacial Embrace has to be paired with Wellspring Quaff, so that sparks will give you more MP. Also, you have to always use your sparks for double/triple sparking/Essential Sutra, and cannot use any of the other spells that take Chi. Basically, spamming ultis and Dragon's Breath is still definitely going to deplete your MP fast. I'm just basing this off my own experience, because the only dungeon I regularly do these days is Flowsilver, which is full of singletarget bosses, with only a few groups of mobs in between each room, so triplespark singletargetspell combos will do just fine in there. 
Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »You know the difference between us? I'm providing concrete examples of how Demon beats Sage culti in wizards, drawing from my past experiences in PvP and PvE. Maybe if you want to prove the supposed superiority of Sage, you should attempt the same.
I said triple spark was useless for all wizards. I didn't single out Sage specifically. I can recommend some reading comprehension courses if you need some. Triple spark, for a wizard, is a giant marker over the head that says "STUNLOCK ME ONCE THIS GLOWY THING IS GONE, I HATE MY CHI AND I WANT TO GET RID OF IT FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER, YOU GOT 3 SECONDS TO PREPARE IT, DW". You know what I did to a sin that tried to triple on me in the middle of a fight? I channeled Frozen Flame while they were stuck in the immunity, and they died right after coming out of it.
*Concrete Evidence*  you mean your one example of how you oneshotted a Wizard with BT after his spark? Ok, no, I can assure you that my English is on par with yours, thanks.
There is no *concrete evidence* in your post, whatsoever, only assumptions, like the one where captain capslock went bonkers inside you and you once again assumed that all wizards on the server would simply triple spark and their opponents would wait for the "Glowing thingy to go off"  well sunshine, there is a thing called timing, if you know your opponent's cooldown, genie's status, you could spark accordingly so it doesn't get nullified after those 3 seconds, or you could aid it with a remedy such as iron guard which will either make the opponent blow his genie/pots as well or simply get him killed.
Is that seriously the ONLY way you can think of using triple spark?? Stand and Spark with no build up and get nullified, perhaps I can recommend you some rookie wizard PvP guides?Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »It sure is odd how, when talking about Stone Barrier, you start assuming I'm drawing a comparison between Sage and Demon SB, when I'm not. I'm drawing a comparison in defense between using Stone Barrier and Glacial Embrace in PvP. Perhaps I should've mentioned, but that Sage wizard was using Glacial Embrace, right up until I landed that BT on them.
Lmfao, way to go, over there you gave the impression as if Sage wizards are squishy just because of this Stone Barrier **** by saying "because he lacked defense" & now all of a sudden you remembered that he was in "Glacial Embrace". This renders your entire oneshot story *Concrete Evidence* useless, since it has nothing to do with which culti is better, which is the main topic here, I can also Show you *concrete evidence* of how I have oneshotted better geared demon wizards with my BIDS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJbYXH5g2z8Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »100% sure, and 100% wrong. I don't use Glacial Embrace in the middle of a fight, ever. Know why? It's because I don't need infinite Chi to kill an opponent, because I know how to use my skills, because I know how to kite and build Chi without having to sacrifice half my P. Def.
Which is why I said that you use it when you disengage during a fight, need some recommendations on reading comprehensions?Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »Sure, Sage spark can help you survive a gank. Know what else can? Ice Prison, Mountain's Seize. Apoth pots, Expel, Absolute Domain, Windshield. Notice how all those things don't eat up 3 sparks and provide more of a benefit for their cost.
I will remember to use Ice Prison when I'm being focused by Archers from over 30M away, or maybe I'll just use Mountain's Seize, when they're all scattered all over the place... XDDDDDThrieya  Lost City wrote: »You're seriously going to call BIDS the "best AOE in the game" based on its usage in one specific situation? One that the OP specifically said he wasn't going to use his wizard in? And then you're basing your argument on one spell? Why don't you go test out your supposed "best AOE" against MS or BT? What kind of opponents are you testing on? Equivalentgeared, better, or worse? Are they buffed or debuffed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJbYXH5g2z8
b:victoryThrieya  Lost City wrote: »Are you even taking into account what's going to happen to a wizard casting BIDS in the middle of a fight? Because I remember a Sage wizard trying to cast it on me before, in mass PvP. Funny that, it didn't work, because when you cast something that giant and flashy in the middle of a battlefield, that takes that long to cast, you're pretty much telling every opponent in the vicinity "INTERRUPT ME NOW PLZ".
No, I was talking about going MVP with no buffs while shouting "BIDS!" in normal chat before I did it.
Of course when there is a blue flashy thing channeling for around 23 seconds from 30 meters away (after the chan from gear), everyone on the screen will instantly scatter and you won't hit anything at all, because the whole group has nothing to focus but you out of 50 people in a TW, maybe I can recommend you some positioning guides?
and of course, since you managed to nullify that one god damn wizard in mass PvP, that is now *Concrete Evidence* of the fact that Sage BIDS is useless, despite the fact that it has nothing to do with whether the BIDS was Sage or Demon. #lel XDThrieya  Lost City wrote: »Lastly, to compare Sage and Demon, you don't compare individual skills, you compare how each culti's skills work together to provide an edge in certain situations. If you're going to ignore the practical applications of all the skills functioning together, if you can't provide actual examples of how they work together, you're not going to provide an argument that's convincing anybody, you're just a blowhard shouting about an opinion you can't provide logical reason for. Maybe the amount of possible scenarios are infinite, but you can't even be bothered to provide a few
I compared individual skills because if individually the skills are flatout better in PvP, they are better in no matter what *scenario* you use them in PvP. Its as simple as that, the procs on the Sage skills are better for PvP, you can use them in whatever way you want, they WILL better in most cases if not all.
Your "Once upon a time I did this" stories don't prove anything either. But Sage procs are still better. You blatantly declare that Sage BIDS is useless despite Demon BIDS having the WORST proc (20% chance to use 1 spark) out of all Wizard skills, completely ignore other procs that are better and rant about your "Experiences", yeah my experiences say the exact opposite of yours.
I like my claims based on FACTS, and Skill procs are FACTS that you cannot change, Sage procs > Demon. I said it, many others say so too.
You can come with your "Once upon a time" stories that prove nothing, because they are highly subjective, I can come up with countless such stories and so can many others, but that does NOT prove anything. Facts do, and fact is, Sage skills are better for PvP. Period.Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »You're lucky I'm too nice to complain about how your name is a misspelled English word. b:cry
Oh so you assumed that he actually mean't his name to be "Column", or something similar, right? Just like you assumed that Sage BIDS is useless, and that all wizards will go MVP HURR DURR triple spark! and then get nullified after those *3 seconds*, and that if you cast BIDS, the whole world will notice you and run away because there is no such thing as positioning, and that everything that you experience becomes *concrete evidence*?
Well, Colum is a name, dumbass :]
Considering how off topic & irrelevant your assumptions are regarding Sage vs Demon, I will ignore your next ignorant wall of text with more of your "Stories" about how you "One shotted an idiot with BT in Glacial Embrace" because they have nothing to do with the topic, which is Sage vs Demon. #Wrekt #Kappa
b:kiss
#Lewl 
Sure, concrete evidence of specific examples wherein a Sage wizard might have done better than a Demon wizard, which you, for some reason, refuse to provide.
And sure, wasting 3 sparks + your apoth + genie if you're using Fortify to get past the stun, in the middle of a battle. You aren't providing any other examples of how triple sparking is helping you in PvP, so I'm telling you about an example of a Sage wizard who had better gear than me, triple sparked twice in a fight, and failed to kill me anyway. In that example, it didn't help them. And they presumably had Glacial Embrace on, specifically so they could build up Chi for triple spark. Which, once again, didn't help them.
Do I really need to spell it out for you, that this was a fight between Sage wizard vs a Demon wizard? In which both players had different strategies according to their culti, and the Demon one won. So that's my example of how Demon does better than Sage.
The funny part is, this topic isn't which culti is better. It's which culti is better for the OP, and he's asking for opinions, supported by specific reasons, on why which culti is better. Maybe if you were actually capable of linking your answers back to his question, as opposed to blindly mocking him for his choices, you would have an argument that people would care to listen to.
When in the hell are you going to "disengage during a fight"? If you run away from your opponent, do you seriously think they're just going to stand there while you switch to Glacial Embrace and regroup? Sure, 10 Chi once every 3 seconds, that's helpful when your opponent can cover the distance between you and them, at max range, in less than 1. I'm not entirely sure why you're citing examples of mass PvP when the OP specifically mentions that he's not going to use his wizard for TW or mass PvP.
You want an example of how Demon skills are better than the Sage versions? Fine, Force of Will. A barb's charging towards you, just as your FoW CD ticks down. If you're Demon, it made it just in time, that barb's sealed, and you're free to run and continue the stunlock on them. If you're Sage? Whoops, sorry, didn't make it time, enjoy being trapped in a paralyze.
Funny how you say "procs", plural, when you have yet to provide an example of a Sage proc that is superior to a Demon proc, other than BIDS, which would be a singular example.
Lastly, I wasn't talking to you when I quoted Colum, and perhaps you may understand the concept of a joke, in which someone says something that they do not entirely mean, or that is not entirely truthful, so as to provide amusement. 
Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »Sure, concrete evidence of specific examples wherein a Sage wizard might have done better than a Demon wizard, which you, for some reason, refuse to provide.
And sure, wasting 3 sparks + your apoth + genie if you're using Fortify to get past the stun, in the middle of a battle. You aren't providing any other examples of how triple sparking is helping you in PvP, so I'm telling you about an example of a Sage wizard who had better gear than me, triple sparked twice in a fight, and failed to kill me anyway. In that example, it didn't help them. And they presumably had Glacial Embrace on, specifically so they could build up Chi for triple spark. Which, once again, didn't help them.
Do I really need to spell it out for you, that this was a fight between Sage wizard vs a Demon wizard? In which both players had different strategies according to their culti, and the Demon one won. So that's my example of how Demon does better than Sage.
The funny part is, this topic isn't which culti is better. It's which culti is better for the OP, and he's asking for opinions, supported by specific reasons, on why which culti is better. Maybe if you were actually capable of linking your answers back to his question, as opposed to blindly mocking him for his choices, you would have an argument that people would care to listen to.
When in the hell are you going to "disengage during a fight"? If you run away from your opponent, do you seriously think they're just going to stand there while you switch to Glacial Embrace and regroup? Sure, 10 Chi once every 3 seconds, that's helpful when your opponent can cover the distance between you and them, at max range, in less than 1. I'm not entirely sure why you're citing examples of mass PvP when the OP specifically mentions that he's not going to use his wizard for TW or mass PvP.
You want an example of how Demon skills are better than the Sage versions? Fine, Force of Will. A barb's charging towards you, just as your FoW CD ticks down. If you're Demon, it made it just in time, that barb's sealed, and you're free to run and continue the stunlock on them. If you're Sage? Whoops, sorry, didn't make it time, enjoy being trapped in a paralyze.
Funny how you say "procs", plural, when you have yet to provide an example of a Sage proc that is superior to a Demon proc, other than BIDS, which would be a singular example.
Lastly, I wasn't talking to you when I quoted Colum, and perhaps you may understand the concept of a joke, in which someone says something that they do not entirely mean, or that is not entirely truthful, so as to provide amusement.
I am not going to go through another wall of text, though just pointing out, many times when I fight Bms for example, I go in air while switched to glacial embrace (disengaged), maybe I should've elucidated it a bit, this buys me time as well as provides me with CHI. .Also you seem to exaggerate things a lot, about Force of Will, you could also kite the barb for 2 seconds in that matter & on top of that, I can seal multiple people during TW with my Sage Force of Will, especially when they are near their Catas protecting their barbs.Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »Funny how you say "procs", plural, when you have yet to provide an example of a Sage proc that is superior to a Demon proc, other than BIDS, which would be a singular example.
Yeah *Plural*
Sage Pyrogram: Sage version has a 20% chance to generate an additional 30 Chi.
Demon Pyrogram: Demon version reduces channeling time to 1.2 seconds. (0.3 seconds less, congratulations)
On the other hand, with constant casts Sage wizards gain sparks within seconds, unlike Demon wizards.
Sage Glacial Embrace: Sage version increases Water Resistance by 150%.
Demon Glacial Embrace: Demon version increases Mana regeneration by 15 points per second
Rofl +3 Mana/s *Mana Regen*  Sage Wins.
Sage Pyroshell: Sage version increases Fire Resistance to 150%
Demon Pyroshell: Demon version increases Health regeneration by 15 points per second.
LOL +3 Hp/s regen, Sage wins, ty.
Sage Blade Tempest: Sage version has a 50% chance to only cost 1 Spark.
Demon Blade Tempest: Demon version has a 50% chance to interrupt targets' channeling.
yeah interrupt channeling, or maybe land an entire ****ing AOE AGAIN  SAGE wins.
Sage Mountain's Seize: Sage version has a 50% chance to only cost 1 Spark.
Demon Mountain's Seize: Demon version increases the range by 5 meters.
Congratulations on landing a mountain from a WHOLE 5 meters extra! or maybe land ANOTHER MOUNTAIN with the Sage proc, LOL  Sage Wins
Sage BIDS: Sage version has a 50% chance to empower you for
10 seconds, increasing magic Critical Rate by 30%.
Demon BIDS: Demon version has a 20% chance to cost no Sparks.
#Roflmao  Sage Please xD
Is there any wiz on your server (sage) who is equally geared to you that I could borrow? I'd like to 1v1 you a bit, if possible.
and fair enough, here is my fight between Sage Wizard & Demon Wizard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJbYXH5g2z8&list=UU2qKK9LtVl5eXCsI7gUWZw
Sage wins^^ 
Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »If you are going to compare "cultis", you are asking for direct comparison between skills, obviously no one here can cover the infinite amount of scenarios you could be in & like I said, Sage does beat demon, skillwise, if that's the case, I don't understand how it would lose in the "whole picture", think about it.
and its not late for you to reroll, I will be more than happy to explain to you in detail why Sage IS > Demon., cheers ^^
Well, when it comes to individual skill comparison... I can do that by myself. It does not, however, tell me how these skills work in actual use, especially considering I have no experience in PVE or endgame content whatsoever as a wizard.
For example, with barb cultis you cannot just say sage is > demon because sage has better defense because it comes down to playstyle of the barb. Same has applied to the other classes I've made the choice of culti for, and I do not see why it wouldnt apply for wizards, too.
Go ahead and explain to me in detail, it would be more reasonable.Thrieya  Lost City wrote: »You're lucky I'm too nice to complain about how your name is a misspelled English word. b:cry
Note that for infinite MP, Glacial Embrace has to be paired with Wellspring Quaff, so that sparks will give you more MP. Also, you have to always use your sparks for double/triple sparking/Essential Sutra, and cannot use any of the other spells that take Chi. Basically, spamming ultis and Dragon's Breath is still definitely going to deplete your MP fast. I'm just basing this off my own experience, because the only dungeon I regularly do these days is Flowsilver, which is full of singletarget bosses, with only a few groups of mobs in between each room, so triplespark singletargetspell combos will do just fine in there.
b:angryb:angryb:angry Ima have me a wizard for dinner.
Yeah I figured that out, and consuming mana in certain instances is not the end of the world anyways. Free manapots from divine quests ftw. b:victoryLeader of Cyanure on Valonsurma and a proud member of Vertu
Demon Strength Barbarian 103/103/101
Demon Pure Mag Cleric 102/102/101  Demon 4 APS Assassin 102/102/101  Demon Pure Mag Mystic 102/101/101  Demon Pure Mag Psychic 100/100/93  Demon 4 APSBarbarian 100/100  HAvenomancer 100  DPH Assassin 100  Pure Mag Wizard 100  Demon Pure Mag Stormbringer 96  Demon DPS Archer 94  Sage Vit Barbarian 93  Demon AllPath Blademaster 93  Str Seeker 86  Pure Mag Venomancer 81  Pure Mag Wizard 81  Pure Dex Duskblade 47 
This debate makes no sense. Comparing some skills but not other makes no sense, because the procs that benefit sage vs the procs that benefit demon are on different skills. And this is in the end due to sage and demon having intrinsically differing play style.
We notice that demons focus on decreasing channeling and improving cc.
While sages focus on increasing damage and improving chi gain.
As such, we can conclude both by actual observation and by logical induction that Sages play style focuses on burst/spike damage, with increased chi gain to allow them to do it more often.
Demons focuses on controlling the opponent, thereby allowing them to DPS and contest damage.
Although postNH, I would say that sage overshadows demon as demons are forced to lose ember storm for Frozen Flame, while sage gets a new reliable CC that was previously the mark of a demon.Zsw 104 Sage Assassin
TehZsw  100 Demon Archer
All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007 
GG picking just sageadvantaged skills. Sage and demon has their advantages on different skills yo.Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »I am not going to go through another wall of text, though just pointing out, many times when I fight Bms for example, I go in air while switched to glacial embrace (disengaged), maybe I should've elucidated it a bit, this buys me time as well as provides me with CHI. .Also you seem to exaggerate things a lot, about Force of Will, you could also kite the barb for 2 seconds in that matter & on top of that, I can seal multiple people during TW with my Sage Force of Will, especially when they are near their Catas protecting their barbs.
Yeah *Plural*
Sage Pyrogram: Sage version has a 20% chance to generate an additional 30 Chi.
Demon Pyrogram: Demon version reduces channeling time to 1.2 seconds. (0.3 seconds less, congratulations)
On the other hand, with constant casts Sage wizards gain sparks within seconds, unlike Demon wizards.
Sage Glacial Embrace: Sage version increases Water Resistance by 150%.
Demon Glacial Embrace: Demon version increases Mana regeneration by 15 points per second
Rofl +3 Mana/s *Mana Regen*  Sage Wins.
Sage Pyroshell: Sage version increases Fire Resistance to 150%
Demon Pyroshell: Demon version increases Health regeneration by 15 points per second.
LOL +3 Hp/s regen, Sage wins, ty.
Sage Blade Tempest: Sage version has a 50% chance to only cost 1 Spark.
Demon Blade Tempest: Demon version has a 50% chance to interrupt targets' channeling.
yeah interrupt channeling, or maybe land an entire ****ing AOE AGAIN  SAGE wins.
Sage Mountain's Seize: Sage version has a 50% chance to only cost 1 Spark.
Demon Mountain's Seize: Demon version increases the range by 5 meters.
Congratulations on landing a mountain from a WHOLE 5 meters extra! or maybe land ANOTHER MOUNTAIN with the Sage proc, LOL  Sage Wins
Sage BIDS: Sage version has a 50% chance to empower you for
10 seconds, increasing magic Critical Rate by 30%.
Demon BIDS: Demon version has a 20% chance to cost no Sparks.
#Roflmao  Sage Please xD
Kitty continues the list...
Sage Stone Barrier: Sage version increases Earth Resistance by 150%.
Demon Stone Barrier: Demon version increases Physical Defense by 150%.
Sage's better against wizzies and psys only. Demon's better against all other classes.
Sage Stone Rain: Sage version reduces channeling time to 1.3 seconds.
Demon Stone Rain: Demon version has a 20% chance to stun the target for 5 seconds.
0,7sec less channel vs stunproc. Demon wins.
Sage Pitfall: Sage version increases the slow effect to 20%.
Demon Pitfall: Demon version increases the freeze chance to 33%.
Sage ish a joke. Demon wins hands down.
Sage Sandstorm: Sage version decreases Accuracy by 50%.
Demon Sandstorm: Demon version deals an additional 1200 damage.
Another sage joke, red. accuracy(only works as dex wizzie) vs much moar damage. Demon wins hands down.
Sage Force of Will: Sage version affects all enemies within 3 meters of the target.
Demon Force of Will: Demon version reduces the cooldown by 2 seconds.
Whoa, GL trying to find such a pack. Demon can save lives at times.
Sage Crown of Flames: Sage version deals an additional 30% Fire damage.
Demon Crown of Flames: Demon version deals damage over 6 seconds.
Quite equal DPSwise.
Sage Gush: Sage version slows targets by 45% and increases the slow duration by 1 second.
Demon Gush: Demon version deals an additional 600 damage.
Moar damage, plox. Demon wins.
Sage Morning Dew: Sage version has a 10% chance to fully heal the target.
Demon Morning Dew: Demon version heals the target every 3 seconds for 200 Health. Lasts 9 seconds.
Sage has small advantage. If it procs on barb. If.
Sage Frostblade: Sage version increases the duration to 30 minutes.
Demon Frostblade: Demon version increases the bonus damage to 50%.
Lazy about buffing? Moar damage plox.
Sage Glacial Snare: Sage version chills the target for 15 seconds, reducing Water Resistance by 20%.
Demon Glacial Snare: Demon version reduces channeling time to 2.1 seconds.
Undineoverwritten debuff vs 0,4 sec less channeling. Sage wins only when wizzie hasn't learnt his/her class.
Sage Dragon's Breath: Sage version has a 20% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds.
Demon Dragon's Breath: Demon version has a 25% chance every 3 seconds to restore 500 Health.
Lovely stun vs lame heal. Stun can be advantage, but also lethal if it makes all mobs hit at the same time. Kitty's been there, died there.
Sage WotP: Sage version reduces the cooldown by 1 second.
Demon WotP: Demon version increases the area by 50%.
Depends on playstyle. In Kitty's use(spamming WotP) sage wins.
Sage WS Quaff: Sage version empowers you for 15 seconds, increasing Magic Attack by 100%.
Demon WS Quaff: Demon version empowers you for 15 seconds, reducing your channeling time by 20%.
As wizzies tend to have massive damage multiplier already, demon adds more to DPS.
Sage Emberstorm: Sage version reduces the damage you take by 25%.
Demon Emberstorm: Demon version has a 50% chance to stun enemies for 3 seconds.
Demon wins hands down. Dat AoEstunb:dirty
Sage Sandfall: Sage version reduces the channeling time to 1.8 seconds.
Demon Sandfall: Demon version increases the stun chance to 33%.
0,2 sec shorter chan vs 13% more stun chance. Demon wins.
Sage Frozen Flame: Sage version stuns the target for 4 seconds.
Demon Frozen Flame: Demon version increases the stun chance to 60%.
1 sec longer stun vs more reliable stun. Depends on playstyle. Some demons might consider keeping Demon Emberstorm though for fast AoEstun.
Kitty's conclusion: Sage has slightly better fire and water shield and more chifriendly nukes. But demon wins about majority of basic skills.
And if Kitty remembers those nukes' chisaving system properly they don't really save chi if full chi as Kitty's heard they first add one spark and then take 2 sparks if it procs. If that's true, those procs are useless when going for Sparked ultis w/Cloud Eruption.
Against certain mobs that BT's interrupt ish actually pretty useful, as well as in massPVP. Kitty's died more than once to getting interrupted by enemy demon wizzie's BT when Kitty was channeling ulti on her sage wiz.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Kittysama  Raging Tide in APSbarb disguise, when avatars were bugged. Now posting again as Kittysama.
Deleted old mains on Feb. 2014, back with every viable build covered, majority of them at or above nonrb 100.b:cute
The Greatest APSPanda on RT! 'Cause there's too much food in tables of Imperial palace.b:surrender
Kitty's current average lvl ~94 b:shocked 
Keisari  Raging Tide wrote: »GG picking just sageadvantaged skills. Sage and demon has their advantages on different skills yo.
Kitty continues the list...
Sage Stone Barrier: Sage version increases Earth Resistance by 150%.
Demon Stone Barrier: Demon version increases Physical Defense by 150%.
Sage's better against wizzies and psys only. Demon's better against all other classes.
Sage Stone Rain: Sage version reduces channeling time to 1.3 seconds.
Demon Stone Rain: Demon version has a 20% chance to stun the target for 5 seconds.
0,7sec less channel vs stunproc. Demon wins.
Sage Pitfall: Sage version increases the slow effect to 20%.
Demon Pitfall: Demon version increases the freeze chance to 33%.
Sage ish a joke. Demon wins hands down.
Sage Sandstorm: Sage version decreases Accuracy by 50%.
Demon Sandstorm: Demon version deals an additional 1200 damage.
Another sage joke, red. accuracy(only works as dex wizzie) vs much moar damage. Demon wins hands down.
Sage Force of Will: Sage version affects all enemies within 3 meters of the target.
Demon Force of Will: Demon version reduces the cooldown by 2 seconds.
Whoa, GL trying to find such a pack. Demon can save lives at times.
Sage Crown of Flames: Sage version deals an additional 30% Fire damage.
Demon Crown of Flames: Demon version deals damage over 6 seconds.
Quite equal DPSwise.
Sage Gush: Sage version slows targets by 45% and increases the slow duration by 1 second.
Demon Gush: Demon version deals an additional 600 damage.
Moar damage, plox. Demon wins.
Sage Morning Dew: Sage version has a 10% chance to fully heal the target.
Demon Morning Dew: Demon version heals the target every 3 seconds for 200 Health. Lasts 9 seconds.
Sage has small advantage. If it procs on barb. If.
Sage Frostblade: Sage version increases the duration to 30 minutes.
Demon Frostblade: Demon version increases the bonus damage to 50%.
Lazy about buffing? Moar damage plox.
Sage Glacial Snare: Sage version chills the target for 15 seconds, reducing Water Resistance by 20%.
Demon Glacial Snare: Demon version reduces channeling time to 2.1 seconds.
Undineoverwritten debuff vs 0,4 sec less channeling. Sage wins only when wizzie hasn't learnt his/her class.
Sage Dragon's Breath: Sage version has a 20% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds.
Demon Dragon's Breath: Demon version has a 25% chance every 3 seconds to restore 500 Health.
Lovely stun vs lame heal. Stun can be advantage, but also lethal if it makes all mobs hit at the same time. Kitty's been there, died there.
Sage WotP: Sage version reduces the cooldown by 1 second.
Demon WotP: Demon version increases the area by 50%.
Depends on playstyle. In Kitty's use(spamming WotP) sage wins.
Sage WS Quaff: Sage version empowers you for 15 seconds, increasing Magic Attack by 100%.
Demon WS Quaff: Demon version empowers you for 15 seconds, reducing your channeling time by 20%.
As wizzies tend to have massive damage multiplier already, demon adds more to DPS.
Sage Emberstorm: Sage version reduces the damage you take by 25%.
Demon Emberstorm: Demon version has a 50% chance to stun enemies for 3 seconds.
Demon wins hands down. Dat AoEstunb:dirty
Sage Sandfall: Sage version reduces the channeling time to 1.8 seconds.
Demon Sandfall: Demon version increases the stun chance to 33%.
0,2 sec shorter chan vs 13% more stun chance. Demon wins.
Sage Frozen Flame: Sage version stuns the target for 4 seconds.
Demon Frozen Flame: Demon version increases the stun chance to 60%.
1 sec longer stun vs more reliable stun. Depends on playstyle. Some demons might consider keeping Demon Emberstorm though for fast AoEstun.
Kitty's conclusion: Sage has slightly better fire and water shield and more chifriendly nukes. But demon wins about majority of basic skills.
And if Kitty remembers those nukes' chisaving system properly they don't really save chi if full chi as Kitty's heard they first add one spark and then take 2 sparks if it procs. If that's true, those procs are useless when going for Sparked ultis w/Cloud Eruption.
Against certain mobs that BT's interrupt ish actually pretty useful, as well as in massPVP. Kitty's died more than once to getting interrupted by enemy demon wizzie's BT when Kitty was channeling ulti on her sage wiz.
Lol.....I have already explained how Demon Stone barrier has no advantages, once again, returns diminished to ****, demon barrier has no advantage, so no, Demon wizards do not have any advantage because of that, its not my fault people are too stupid to understand that.
So yes, no advantage from Demon Barrier, better other shields for Sage, SAGE does win, I'm sorry.
2) 0.7 second less channeling vs your stun that procs 2 out of 10 times? Congratulations, Demon doesn't win, no one does, that is why I didn't mention it.
3) When you talk about Mages, you talk about burst damage, which is DPH, not *DPS*.
4) 600 MOAR damage skill damage on your demon Gush translated to actual damage, which is like even less than what it says in PvP, gonna help them oneshots yo xDDDD
45% slow on Sage Gush is extremely useful vs Barbs & Bms on the ground, Sage still wins.
Sandstorm, Emberstorm, Pitfall & Glacial Snare
Seriously? way to go just dropping by to say **** about things you don't have a clue on...lol
None of these skills exist, welcome to 2014 & PWI: New Horizons. 
do you realize that at endgame that 23% more phys damage reduction coming from resistance, its actually 2030% less damage you receive from you target? (29000 phys res = 87% damage redux, 33000 = 89% damage redux)
and that 2030% less damage makes the difference between getting oneshotted by any +12 sin rather than get a charm tick?
also the ccs man, the demon hailstorm utility, demon emberstorm utily, the channellingDPS utility after our debuffDPH and ultiDPH is basically dead, the demon leap that gets you out from archer's range
but the main "real" trade between sage and demon is
more chi vs CCs + survivabiliy + higher DPS
consider that blue shield gave demon wizards a pretty nice chi recovery and consider also faster channelling makes demon wizards able to land more skills therefore generate more chi aswell, and boom the only benefit from sage is gone.
sage bid, bt, ms? we aren't in 2010 anymore, damage coming from ultis is nowadays barely superior to hailstorm
i had been sage wizard from earthguards release period to nation wars release period, switched to demon and i'm going to stay demon
there is really no choice unless we aren't talking endgamemypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg 
XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »do you realize that at endgame that 23% more phys damage reduction coming from resistance, its actually 2030% less damage you receive from you target? (29000 phys res = 87% damage redux, 33000 = 89% damage redux)
and that 2030% less damage makes the difference between getting oneshotted by any +12 sin rather than get a charm tick?
Lol what?.....by that logic, if the difference between flat damage reduction shown is lets suppose, 80% and 90% (which is a difference of 90  80 = 10%), it'll actually translate to 100% less damage (basically 0) from the target? ..... No, the reduction shown by the stat indicator IS the actual damage reduction, which is 10% in this case & 2% in yours (89% and 87%)
and an end game Wizard has almost 3840K p.def, which means that the difference from your demon stone barrier is not even 2% extra, I am Sage with a magic attack end game ring with 38.7K P.def fully buffed, the returns from stone barrier have "completely" diminished to ****, at this point, demon stone barrier doesn't do jack ...lolXXHotXx  Morai wrote: »also the ccs man, the demon hailstorm utility, demon emberstorm utily, the channellingDPS utility after our debuffDPH and ultiDPH is basically dead, the demon leap that gets you out from archer's range
Hailstorm? Sage has a 33% chance to Freeze, Demon has a 50% chance, so you have an extra 17% chance to freeze? Grats.
Lol Emberstorm, there is no Emberstorm anymore, sorry, only Frozen flame.
Sage leap also gets you out of an Archer's range, unless you're standing on its head  who the hell jumps away from an archer anyway? you tend to get on their face during 1v1s, and in mass pk, they're not on your head, so it doesn't matter if you can leap 5 meters extra with demon distance shrink, you also leap at a 50% lesser CHI cost with sage.XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »but the main "real" trade between sage and demon is
more chi vs CCs + survivabiliy + higher DPS
Demon has more survival?? What?? The extra 1% flat reduction from Demon Stone barrier? Lol
Higher DPS...? The extra 6001000 Skill damage on a few skills like Gush? That's *nothing* compared to the flat 5% damage amp from Earth, Water & Fire Sage Masteries, so no, this terribly misleading.XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »consider that blue shield gave demon wizards a pretty nice chi recovery and consider also faster channelling makes demon wizards able to land more skills therefore generate more chi aswell, and boom the only benefit from sage is gone.
I don't know if you completely misunderstand mechanics or just had a bad choice of words here.
What do you mean "Boom the only advantage of Sage is gone?" Did you mean "Nullified by its Demon counterparts"? well if you did, then I've got news for you:
Demon Pyrogram channels Faster (0.3 seconds faster)
Demon Divine Pyrogram channels Faster (0.5 second faster)
Sage Stone Rain channels Faster (0.7 seconds faster)
Sage Sandfall Channels Faster
So no, actually demon skills don't channel faster unless you triple spark, and have fun doing that as a demon wizard because gaining CHI after that is not even close to being as fast as a Sage wizard.
Sage Pyrogram also has a chance to provide +30 CHI
Sage Divine Pyrogram has chance to reduce opponent's Fire resistance by an addional 20%, do you know how incredible this is with the Undine+Genie Spark combo?
Gaining CHI MUCH faster as a Sage means you can spark/ult more often & indubitably gives you a higher "DPS", although as a Nuke, I'd much rather focus on DPH and one shots rather than "DPS" & with the 5% damage amp from Sage masteries, Sage has a higher DPH without a doubt.XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »sage bid, bt, ms? we aren't in 2010 anymore, damage coming from ultis is nowadays barely superior to hailstorm
*Atomic Face Palm*
Bro, I think you need to see your log and compare these skills for yourself on a target
Hailstorm: Conjure a hailstorm to rain down on all enemies near the target. Deals base magic damage plus 3160 as Water damage.
nad lets take, BIDS: Summon an icy dragon that smashes into all enemies within 12 meters of the target. Deals base magic damage plus 500% of weapon damage plus 13955 as Water damage.
So, if I hit someone with a skill that has a base damage of 3160 & one that does 13955 WITH 500% Weapon damage  they're the same thing? b:shocked
Hell No!
~ Cheers 
Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »Lol what?.....by that logic, if the difference between flat damage reduction shown is lets suppose, 80% and 90% (which is a difference of 90  80 = 10%), it'll actually translate to 100% less damage (basically 0) from the target? ..... No, the reduction shown by the stat indicator IS the actual damage reduction, which is 10% in this case & 2% in yours (89% and 87%)
How about learning some math, yo? Damage reduction shows how much damage ish reduced. For ex. 87% damage reduction would mean 13% of original damage getting through armors. If mob would hit 1000 damage on unarmored target, it would hit 130 damage on someone with that 87% reduction.
Proper formula for finding the actual difference between defence reduction would be (1  Dmg1) / (1  Dmg2) . Thus the difference between 89% red. and 87% red. would be actually ( 1  89 ) / (1  87 ) = 11 / 13 = 15,38% more defence. That would be about 18% less damage taken(13 / 11 )
Hailstorm? Sage has a 33% chance to Freeze, Demon has a 50% chance, so you have an extra 17% chance to freeze? Grats.
Some use Hailstorm mostly for that Freezeproc to freeze melee mobs and players to help them stay still while loading something nastier. 50% higher chance to proc helps a lot in that purpose. Meanwhile sage haz extra damage proc for ~1055 extra damage(do some math to figure why), which ish quite pathetic damage like you've said yourself.
Lol Emberstorm, there is no Emberstorm anymore, sorry, only Frozen flame.
Believe or not but some prefer having fastchanneled AoEstun proc instead of range singletarget stun. For sage there's separated skills aren't viable option, but for AoEfocused demon wizzies it ish very viable.
Sage leap also gets you out of an Archer's range, unless you're standing on its head  who the hell jumps away from an archer anyway? you tend to get on their face during 1v1s, and in mass pk, they're not on your head, so it doesn't matter if you can leap 5 meters extra with demon distance shrink, you also leap at a 50% lesser CHI cost with sage.
You know that if the archer's kiting you, freezing him/her or leaping to meleerange to halve the archer's damage can save poor wizzie. And as archers in general have 5m damagehalving radius, that 5m extra leap can be crucial at getting close enough since archer's range ish 35m and 35m  30m = 5m, 35m  25m = 10m . See the difference?
Demon has more survival?? What?? The extra 1% flat reduction from Demon Stone barrier? Lol
Higher DPS...? The extra 6001000 Skill damage on a few skills like Gush? That's *nothing* compared to the flat 5% damage amp from Earth, Water & Fire Sage Masteries, so no, this terribly misleading.
Due to wizzie's long channeling times some extra channeling from demon skills actually increase DPS rather well. Sage WSQ's m. attack buff(35% actual damage) ish pathetic compared to demon's channeling boost(~1015% moar DPS).
I don't know if you completely misunderstand mechanics or just had a bad choice of words here.
What do you mean "Boom the only advantage of Sage is gone?" Did you mean "Nullified by its Demon counterparts"? well if you did, then I've got news for you:
Demon Pyrogram channels Faster (0.3 seconds faster)
Demon Divine Pyrogram channels Faster (0.5 second faster)
Sage Stone Rain channels Faster (0.7 seconds faster)
Sage Sandfall Channels Faster
So no, actually demon skills don't channel faster unless you triple spark, and have fun doing that as a demon wizard because gaining CHI after that is not even close to being as fast as a Sage wizard.
Demon WSQ, anyone?(~1015% moar DPS).
Sage Pyrogram also has a chance to provide +30 CHI
Av. 40% more chi from single cast of a certain skill. Demon's channeling boost, on the other hand, helps chi generating from ALL skills, not just a single skill. Fight fire or waterelemental boss to figure why demon has an advantage here.
Sage Divine Pyrogram has chance to reduce opponent's Fire resistance by an addional 20%, do you know how incredible this is with the Undine+Genie Spark combo?
If it didn't overwrite Undine, that ish. GL with nerfed DP.
Gaining CHI MUCH faster as a Sage means you can spark/ult more often & indubitably gives you a higher "DPS", although as a Nuke, I'd much rather focus on DPH and one shots rather than "DPS" & with the 5% damage amp from Sage masteries, Sage has a higher DPH without a doubt.
So you either never play PVE or just like to nerf your damage when you do?PVEwise DPH's only effective at 1 or 2shotting pulls.
*Atomic Face Palm*
Bro, I think you need to see your log and compare these skills for yourself on a target
Hailstorm: Conjure a hailstorm to rain down on all enemies near the target. Deals base magic damage plus 3160 as Water damage.
nad lets take, BIDS: Summon an icy dragon that smashes into all enemies within 12 meters of the target. Deals base magic damage plus 500% of weapon damage plus 13955 as Water damage.
So, if I hit someone with a skill that has a base damage of 3160 & one that does 13955 WITH 500% Weapon damage  they're the same thing? b:shocked
Hell No!
~ Cheers
Kitty's responses in her usual writing color.
Btw, Kitty used to play T3sage wizzie effectively enough to be primary target of r9rrs in NW. Kitty considers sage wizzie as "1shot or 1shot" while demon ish more of a trickster.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Kittysama  Raging Tide in APSbarb disguise, when avatars were bugged. Now posting again as Kittysama.
Deleted old mains on Feb. 2014, back with every viable build covered, majority of them at or above nonrb 100.b:cute
The Greatest APSPanda on RT! 'Cause there's too much food in tables of Imperial palace.b:surrender
Kitty's current average lvl ~94 b:shocked 
i am very endgame demon and i have 35k with demon barrier,
i've no idea how did you pull 3840k with sage one
if you consider 89% damage reduction (thats what i actually have) respect 87% damage reduction, that it would be me on sage barrier, thats roughly 20% damage more i receive from physical attaacks. simple maths,
and assassins hit me 5 digits currently,
20% more damage would mean for me to get oneshotted
as it is simple maths that an endgame wizard @ full mag atk build can almost reach 60k base damage, 70k on buffs, close to 100k on 3spark
hailstorm = 60k\70k\100k base damage + 3k
bid = 60k\70k\100k + 10k +10k
2 sparks for 2030% damage more? #worth
also hailstorm being able to freezee once every 2 hits respect once every 3 hits, seen our channelling and cooldown times, seen we dont have many reliable CCs, it is a lot.
if you are attacking an archer not standing on his head you need to practice some more pvp.
i repeat i was sage for 2 years, switched then to demon,
then tested again sage at current endgame, aaaaaand switched back to demon 2 hours aftermypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg 
XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »i am very endgame demon and i have 35k with demon barrier,
i've no idea how did you pull 3840k with sage one
if you consider 89% damage reduction (thats what i actually have) respect 87% damage reduction, that it would be me on sage barrier, thats roughly 20% damage more i receive from physical attaacks. simple maths,
and assassins hit me 5 digits currently,
20% more damage would mean for me to get oneshotted
as it is simple maths that an endgame wizard @ full mag atk build can almost reach 60k base damage, 70k on buffs, close to 100k on 3spark
hailstorm = 60k\70k\100k base damage + 3k
bid = 60k\70k\100k + 10k +10k
2 sparks for 2030% damage more? #worth
Divide by 4 cause of PvP damage reduction. There's a reason why people don't use their DoTs even though the numbers look okayish on paper, after all. b:chuckle
On the subject of defense, it's not diminishing at all. In fact it's the opposite.
Say you take 1000 damage with no defense.
Going to 10% defense, you now take 900 damage. Not that big of a reduction compared to before but better than nothing.
Now let's say you were at 80% defense there and taking only 200 damage. Getting the same extra 10% defense that brings you to 90% means you only take 100 damage now. Exact same resistance increase as 0 to 10%... but you're now taking 50% less damage compared to what you were hit for before. And that's a huge difference when we consider how hard folks can hit at endgame. Especially if you get purged and have to rely on self buffs.(Insert fancy image here) 
XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »i've no idea how did you pull 3840k with sage one
Yes, this is basically what I've been trying to say for a long time, and ironically I am not even fully Garnet sharded.
This is because The 120% physical defense increase from Sage and 150% from Demon stone barrier does not include everything in its calculation, I have not exactly seen what it includes, but it probably doesn't include shards, because when you use the shields, it is clear in the stat window that your entire defense did not get increased by literally 120/150%  which renders the extra 30% P.def from your Demon Stone barrier even more useless.
Which is why I am actually pulling off more defense than you, as Sage, lol.XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »if you consider 89% damage reduction (thats what i actually have) respect 87% damage reduction, that it would be me on sage barrier, thats roughly 20% damage more i receive from physical attaacks. simple maths,
and assassins hit me 5 digits currently,
20% more damage would mean for me to get oneshotted
Simple maths, yet you're doing it wrong....
Like I said, if 1% lesser defense means 10% more damage taken, then 10% extra defense would mean you take 100% lesser damage, or 0 damage.
Here's what I'm saying exactly:
Sage Wizard has 80% reduction, Demon has 81%
According to your calculations, that's 10% reduced damage taken by the Demon Wizard? Fine:
Sage Wizard takes 1000 damage from an attack, Demon Should take 1000  [(10/100) x 1000] = 900
Now lets suppose that Demon is now getting 90% reduction, as opposed to Sage, which is still 80%:
According to your calculations, that's 100% reduced damage taken by the Demon Wizard?
Now, Sage Wizard takes 1000 damage from an attack, Demon Should take 1000  [(100/100) x 1000] = 0
#inadmissible
Sorry, bad math.
but why so enthralled anyway?
Look at what OPKossy said:Now let's say you were at 80% defense there and taking only 200 damage. Getting the same extra 10% defense that brings you to 90% means you only take 100 damage now. Exact same resistance increase as 0 to 10%... but you're now taking 50% less damage compared to what you were hit for before.
Exactly, now this makes sense:
10% extra defense = 50% reduced incoming damage (NOT 100% which your calculations show)
Thus an additional 1% extra defense from your stone barrier provides: 50/10 = 5% reduced incoming damage.
Lets suppose your demon barrier is pulling off an extra 1% damage reduction, that's 5% reduced damage on you compared to a Wizard with Sage stone barrier on, ok then, lets see:
As a Sage wizard, I take 2000 damage from a sin attack (reduction inclusive)
You will take 5% less, which is 1900.
Does this save you from oneshots? Lol.
It is insignificant, as aforementioned by OPKossy =P
But better than nothing, BUT! Like you already admitted you've got lesser physical defense than me, and I'm Sage, so you can imagine how better it can possibly get, for most Demon wizards. :PXXHotXx  Morai wrote: »as it is simple maths that an endgame wizard @ full mag atk build can almost reach 60k base damage, 70k on buffs, close to 100k on 3spark
hailstorm = 60k\70k\100k base damage + 3k
bid = 60k\70k\100k + 10k +10k
2 sparks for 2030% damage more? #worth
Lol.Divide by 4 cause of PvP damage reduction. There's a reason why people don't use their DoTs even though the numbers look okayish on paper, after all. b:chuckle
This ^
I just field tested it too, and I got 4050% damage amp.
Also, a TWELVE METER AOE, with 4050% damage amp for 2 sparks? #Worth 
Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »Yes, this is basically what I've been trying to say for a long time, and ironically I am not even fully Garnet sharded.
This is because The 120% physical defense increase from Sage and 150% from Demon stone barrier does not include everything in its calculation, I have not exactly seen what it includes, but it probably doesn't include shards, because when you use the shields, it is clear in the stat window that your entire defense did not get increased by literally 120/150%  which renders the extra 30% P.def from your Demon Stone barrier even more useless.
Which is why I am actually pulling off more defense than you, as Sage, lol.
Simple maths, yet you're doing it wrong....
Like I said, if 1% lesser defense means 10% more damage taken, then 10% extra defense would mean you take 100% lesser damage, or 0 damage.
Here's what I'm saying exactly:
Sage Wizard has 80% reduction, Demon has 81%
According to your calculations, that's 10% reduced damage taken by the Demon Wizard? Fine:
Sage Wizard takes 1000 damage from an attack, Demon Should take 1000  [(10/100) x 1000] = 900
Now lets suppose that Demon is now getting 90% reduction, as opposed to Sage, which is still 80%:
According to your calculations, that's 100% reduced damage taken by the Demon Wizard?
Now, Sage Wizard takes 1000 damage from an attack, Demon Should take 1000  [(100/100) x 1000] = 0
#inadmissible
Sorry, bad math.
but why so enthralled anyway?
Look at what OPKossy said:
Exactly, now this makes sense:
10% extra defense = 50% reduced incoming damage (NOT 100% which your calculations show)
Thus an additional 1% extra defense from your stone barrier provides: 50/10 = 5% reduced incoming damage.
Lets suppose your demon barrier is pulling off an extra 1% damage reduction, that's 5% reduced damage on you compared to a Wizard with Sage stone barrier on, ok then, lets see:
As a Sage wizard, I take 2000 damage from a sin attack (reduction inclusive)
You will take 5% less, which is 1900.
Does this save you from oneshots? Lol.
It is insignificant, as aforementioned by OPKossy =P
But better than nothing, BUT! Like you already admitted you've got lesser physical defense than me, and I'm Sage, so you can imagine how better it can possibly get, for most Demon wizards. :P
Lol.
This ^
I just field tested it too, and I got 4050% damage amp.
Also, a TWELVE METER AOE, with 4050% damage amp for 2 sparks? #Worth
you start from a bad premise,
at endgame none has 0 resistance, you have to consider that at endgame everyone has at least 80% damage reduction base as purged
so you have to start from a 80% d. redux value as base value, also because none more or less will be able to debuff that value under the 80% (besides demon veno)
if you consider that at endgame the base redux value is 80% you will understand where the maths comes from
at endgame 10% damage reduction less is indeed 100% more damage you take
consider that to obtain 10% damage reduction less you have to debuff enemy resistance value by like 150% roughly (considered def passives, you have to take down target res value from 35k (89%) to 15k (79%))
its hard to explain but i'll try... the usable "damage range" it's no more from 0 to 100% damage reduction range,
but more like it is from 80% to 100%
simply because at endgame with the def passives there is no way that you are going to drop resistances values below that level of damage reduction
and what about pvp damage reduction?
pvp damage reduction is not applied to bids? xD
hailstorm: 6373103k \ 4 = 15,75 \ 18,25 \ 25,75
bid: 8090120 \ 4 = 20 \ 22,5 \ 30 > 21% amp \ 18,9% amp \ 14,16% amp
#4050%damageampfrom2sparksworthmmhkaaaaay
also what you are saying is to trade shards by going sage and sharding garnet shards,
yea but you traded a lot of defense levels, so you will have same p. res of a demon one, but you will take 50% damage more from not being full josd
i truly wish a deity sin would 3spark elimination you and then you will see what i am talking about
also your maths is completely broken the 5% damage less has to be calculated on the 100% value not on the already reduced damage value..
so realistically i have 35k p res (89%), a sage one would have 28k (87%)
assassins hit me for 13k15k
10089% > 11 my "usable damage range" (i dont know what term to use)
10087% > 13 sage usable damage range
15000 : 11 = x : 13
x = 17727 < damage you would get as sage
15k is not a oneshot for a full +12 wizard, 18k is a oneshot for a full +12 wizard
i see your points doe, and your tests what i really believe is that you aren't at very endgame
and as i have already said @ not very endgame sage could be viablemypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
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Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »Snip, lots of bad math.
Kitty gives a small lesson about defence calculating.
The total defence ish calculated by multiplying defence from gears, avatars and meridian by defence multiplier(formed by defence buffs, vit., str.).
The actual formula(according to PWIwiki) ish physical defense = Round{ ( Vit + Str  2 ) / 4 } + Round{ Def * ( 1 + Round{ ( ( 2 * Vit ) + ( 3 * Str ) ) / 25 } / 100 ) } + 1 where round means rounding to nearest percentual integer(nondecimal value like 1, 2 or 1337).
For ex. for wizzie with 60 str, 70 vit and sage Stone Barrier and lvl 10 passive def. buff the defence multiplier would be 1 + 0,128(vit.+str.) + 0,6 (passive) + 1,2(sage Stone Barrier) = 2,928. For demon with same stats it would be 3,228. Level 10 bell would increase it by 0,6 and level 10 Vanguard Spirit by another 0,6.
Thus selfbuffed demon Stone Barrier would result in 10,2% more defence compared to sage Stone Barrier. Fullybuffed it would be smaller increase, 7,3%.
If that 38k p. def. of yours was fullybuffed with quite similar stats, base p. def. from gears alone would be about 9300 then(would result in 38390 p. def. with 4,128 multiplier). Thus according to formula on PWIwiki ( physical reduction% = physical defense / ( ( 40 * attacker level ) + physical defense  25 ) ) your damage reduction would be 90,1%. In other words 9,9% damage taken.
If you had demon Stone Barrier instead you'd have 41180 p. def with 90,7% damage reduction a.k.a. 9,3% damage taken. That means you take 6,5% more damage with Sage Stone Barrier compared to demon Stone Barrier. If demon got hit for 15000, sage would get hit 15975 in this case. And notice: this ish fullybuffed.
Selfbuffed the difference ish far greater. Using those samestats as earlier and 9300 def. from gears you'd have 27230 p. def. selfbuffed as sage. That's 86,7% dmg. reduction a.k.a. 13,3% damage taken. As demon you'd have 30020 p. def. selfbuffed. That's 87,8% dmg. reduction a.k.a. 12,2% damage taken. That means 9% more damage taken as sage compared to demon. If demon got hit for 15000 again, this time sage would get hit for 16350.
The page Kitty got these formulas from: http://pwiwiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Damage#Resistance
And note: Spirit and def. levels amplify those differences nicely.b:cute[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Kittysama  Raging Tide in APSbarb disguise, when avatars were bugged. Now posting again as Kittysama.
Deleted old mains on Feb. 2014, back with every viable build covered, majority of them at or above nonrb 100.b:cute
The Greatest APSPanda on RT! 'Cause there's too much food in tables of Imperial palace.b:surrender
Kitty's current average lvl ~94 b:shocked 
XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »you start from a bad premise,
at endgame none has 0 resistance, you have to consider that at endgame everyone has at least 80% damage reduction base as purged
so you have to start from a 80% d. redux value as base value, also because none more or less will be able to debuff that value under the 80% (besides demon veno)
if you consider that at endgame the base redux value is 80% you will understand where the maths comes from
I don't know where I said anything about purged resistances being "0" anywhere, and how this has anything to do with Demon Vs Sage at all, the premise is exactly where you have at least your Stone Barrier applied, not when you're debuffed because in that case it doesn't matter whether you are Demon or Sage.XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »at endgame 10% damage reduction less is indeed 100% more damage you take
No it isn't, read what OPKossy wrote & the calculations we BOTH did, what part of that do you not understand? According your 10% more reduction = 100% reduced damage taken, you will take 0 damage as compared to a Sage who takes 100% normal damage. Which makes no sense.
I don't care if you continue your rant on this, because I KNOW for a fact that a person with 80% resistance doesn't take DOUBLE damage as compared to a person with 90% (which is never the case in terms of P.def) reduction! the damage is significantly higher (around 50%) but not 100% extra.XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »and what about pvp damage reduction?
pvp damage reduction is not applied to bids? xD
hailstorm: 6373103k \ 4 = 15,75 \ 18,25 \ 25,75
bid: 8090120 \ 4 = 20 \ 22,5 \ 30 > 21% amp \ 18,9% amp \ 14,16% amp
#4050%damageampfrom2sparksworthmmhkaaaaay
If you think that a BIDS deals 14.16% extra damage as compared to Hailstorm.
Then I'd like to suggest you to take some elementary maths courses, don't give me this theoretical Jazz, go pick a player and then try using both & SEE if thats *14.16%* amped damage or a whole lot ****ing more.XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »also your maths is completely broken the 5% damage less has to be calculated on the 100% value not on the already reduced damage value..
"Reduction Inclusive" was mean't for the Sage wizard's case & In demon's case that got reduced by 5% further, the reduction obviously had been applied to 100% damage, which is why it came down to 2000. ____XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »so realistically i have 35k p res (89%), a sage one would have 28k (87%)
assassins hit me for 13k15k
10089% > 11 my "usable damage range" (i dont know what term to use)
10087% > 13 sage usable damage range
15000 : 11 = x : 13
x = 17727 < damage you would get as sage
15k is not a oneshot for a full +12 wizard, 18k is a oneshot for a full +12 wizard
So now we're using ratios on selfassumed mechanics, such as your "Usable Range" are we? There is no such equation on any PWI page & I'd much rather PvP to see the differences rather than make these meaningless calculations. I have already seen enough of your barbaric calculations which show that BIDS does only 14.16% extra damage, and that if you an extra 10% reduction you take 100% lesser damage, so I'm not buying anything.
Lol 15000? way to go in choosing such a high value, just to prove me wrong, unless you have like 400 spirit. xD
because even though apparently, I am not endgame right? The highest crits I take from R9rr sins with +12 weaps and 9XX spirit is around 1520K nonsparked (zerk crits)
Skill shots from sins R9rr+12 Sins with 9XX spirit, are no more than 48K (crits only) on me, because every other sin on the server is not full Deity Sharded +12 with 1K spirit, who can actual get 15K crits only, with no zerk.
and Lawl, lets take your theory up a notch, now there is a sin that can hit 19Ks on you, congrats, Demon & Sage both get oneshotted?
You are speaking of a very specific situation, and on top of all this idiotic argument, the fact that my Sage Stone barrier is still giving me more defense than your demon barrier nullifies all of your examples.
Oh and BTW, I am not fully Garnet sharded. lelXXHotXx  Morai wrote: »also what you are saying is to trade shards by going sage and sharding garnet shards
Lol what? When the hell did I talk about trading shards? Omg....XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »yea but you traded a lot of defense levels, so you will have same p. res of a demon one, but you will take 50% damage more from not being full josd
Lol, yet another vague statement, not sure where I "traded Def levels" .. yadda yadda
and as aforementioned, I am not fully garnet sharded. Not sure why you even jumped to this.
Me & OPKossy have done well to explain you something, if you still want to stick to your *Maths* then please do so, we tried. xD
I am done here, *Over & Out*Keisari  Raging Tide wrote: »That means you take 6,5% more damage with Sage Stone Barrier compared to demon Stone Barrier
Lel.
Which is nearly about what me & OPKossy calculated (5% reduced damage per 1% Damage reduction).
I've had Advanced Maths & Pure Maths in High school & then in university as well, with 90+% :B
Kitty needs to stop trying to shoot me down, kitty knows nothing about Wizards! O,..,O
Miaow! 
man saying that 10% less damage reduction will make you take double damage (100% more)
doesnt fvcking mean that 10% more damage reduction will make you take no damage,
it will mean that you will take half damage
cause the damage you take with 10% less damage reduction starts from 90% damage reduction
means you are taking damage based upon 80% = 20% "damage range" = 2x damage
And having 10% more damage reduction from 90% is impossible simply because:
1: cap redux is 95%
2: a wizard can't reach cap value not even on full buffs (would be something around 5560k p res)
at endgame a sage wizard has 23% less damage reduction respect a demon one,
that is 20%30% more damage he is receiving from physical attacks respect the damage a demon one is taking from the same source. period.
also Mr. Advanced maths show me the maths fallacy in my BID damage calculation and comparison to Hailstorm.
Man we aren't anymore in 2010 where our base damage was 20k and bid skill was adding damage worth almost as twice as our base magic damage
Bid skill add the same amount of damage it would've added in 2010, but now we have 70k base damage and the 10k + 500% compared to our actual base damage is the percentages i said
Yea our ultis are nerfed, welcome to 2014 wizard
please stop making bad logic games to try prove a false statement.mypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg 
Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »Which is nearly about what me & OPKossy calculated (5% reduced damage per 1% Damage reduction).
You only PVP with BM and cleric buffs? Selfbuffed that difference ish twice more than you calculated, just saying.
I've had Advanced Maths & Pure Maths in High school & then in university as well, with 90+% :B
Oh, as if degrees or whatever made any impression on Kitty, sorry to say. There's maaaany things schools don't teach.
Kitty needs to stop trying to shoot me down, kitty knows nothing about Wizards! O,..,O
Miaow!
Kitty's first character, when she started playing PWI around November 2011, was a wizzie. So probably Kitty doesn't know anything about them, true.b:bye
Kitty's shooting joo down 'cause you make basic math errors while claiming to be good at it. Kitty seriously hates people giving false information, that's what created her worst nemesis ingame.
For ex. it's not 5% reduced damage per 1% more damage reduction. The higher your damage reduction%, the higher every more %'s significance, like 89% to 90%increase ish almost twice as effective compared to 79% to 80%increase.
You might think damage reduction's effectiveness like reverse version of crit rate. As crit rate% increases every new % ish less effective. When damage reduction% increases every new % ish moar effective.
The formula to how many d % less damage one takes for x % more damage reduction ish 1 / (((100  n ) / (100  n  (x  n))  1) * 100) = d where "n" ish current dmg. red. % and "x" ish dmg. red. % after improvement.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Kittysama  Raging Tide in APSbarb disguise, when avatars were bugged. Now posting again as Kittysama.
Deleted old mains on Feb. 2014, back with every viable build covered, majority of them at or above nonrb 100.b:cute
The Greatest APSPanda on RT! 'Cause there's too much food in tables of Imperial palace.b:surrender
Kitty's current average lvl ~94 b:shocked 
XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »man saying that 10% less damage reduction will make you take double damage (100% more)
doesnt fvcking mean that 10% more damage reduction will make you take no damage,XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »it will mean that you will take half damage
You know what? I think we have a misunderstanding here, you're now saying the same thing I was saying, perhaps you should've said that an additional 10% damage reduction will reduce the additonal damage dealt by 100%, which means that you'll now take half damage (50% less)
*Bro fist*
However, the difference in damage reduction between Sage & Demon, like I said, is not even 23%, it's hardly 12% MAX, thus not that significant.XXHotXx  Morai wrote: »also Mr. Advanced maths show me the maths fallacy in my BID damage calculation and comparison to Hailstorm.
Man we aren't anymore in 2010 where our base damage was 20k and bid skill was adding damage worth almost as twice as our base magic damage
Bid skill add the same amount of damage it would've added in 2010, but now we have 70k base damage and the 10k + 500% compared to our actual base damage is the percentages i said
Yea our ultis are nerfed, welcome to 2014 wizard
please stop making bad logic games to try prove a false statement.
Lol, I think the Math fallacy is the 70K Magic attack, dude no one has this much magic attack atm, this would be a Wizard with a rebirthed Nuema Portal set, for now the strongest wizards (at least on my server) have 4550K magic attack and there's only one that pulls off 60K, so the 13995 + 500% Weap damage is not insignificant as you state, I tried BIDS & Hailstorm on a target (player) and BIDS did around 4050% more damage, plus its a 12M AOE, which will be a super star in group PvP no matter what.
You love your Ultis and you know it!
~CheersKeisari  Raging Tide wrote: »The higher your damage reduction%, the higher every more %'s significance, like 89% to 90%increase ish almost twice as effective compared to 79% to 80%increase.
This seems interesting, I'll look into this, kitty has actually shown something useful!
As a PvPer on a pvp server, yes I am almost always buffed, unless it is impossible to stay buffed vs someone, like a veno or an R9rr Archer, I am always buffed. A lot of things you mentioned are relevant to PvE, which I overlooked because I am strictly talking about PvP from the start, and ahah! no worries! my degree gets me into Universities for my Masters, no need for impressions on anyone. xD
My first & last character is a Wizard, I started in 2009, my last character is a Wizard, trust me I know it very well. 
Ruby_Inferno  Harshlands wrote: »You know what? I think we have a misunderstanding here, you're now saying the same thing I was saying, perhaps you should've said that an additional 10% damage reduction will reduce the additonal damage dealt by 100%, which means that you'll now take half damage (50% less)
*Bro fist*
Lol, I think the Math fallacy is the 70K Magic attack, dude no one has this much magic attack atm, this would be a Wizard with a rebirthed Nuema Portal set, for now the strongest wizards (at least on my server) have 4550K magic attack and there's only one that pulls off 60K, so the 13995 + 500% Weap damage is not insignificant as you state, I tried BIDS & Hailstorm on a target (player) and BIDS did around 4050% more damage, plus its a 12M AOE, which will be a super star in group PvP no matter what.
You love your Ultis and you know it!
~Cheers
i have 50ish base 65k buffed 85k 3spark
will reach 58k base 75k buffed 100k 3sparked when i ll be full mag and triple 105 (i am 105 104 100 atm with hybrid crit build)
i do love my bids, i would use them anytime anywhere even just for the marvelous animation,
i was the first that asked a bid buff cause the damage added by the skill itself became really a lot less significant respect as it always have been
reallistically if you drop that being endgame, vs any other endgame player with endgame elemental resistances, you will hit not much more than any other basic skill
simply because our base damage value exceeded way more the damage added from the skills, therefore the damage output of each skill we land is 8090% composed by the base magic damage component solelymypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
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