Eternal question - Sage vs Demon - need thoughts

Colum - Raging Tide

Hello!

I have read through ecatomb's wizard skill descriptions before (and have access to the mirrored page) and I have also read through several demon vs sage wiz threads (though most seem outdated) yet I feel quite unsure what would be the right culti choice for me as a player thus I decided to create a thread, explain a little bit what I'd want from my wizard and then hear your thoughts.

Wiz is the only class I have had hard time deciding culti for. It will be used as an alt soI will use my cleric's gears on it, my goal is T3 +10 with a decent A-card set. I will use my wizard for PvE, NW and 1vs1. No TW or group PK. I might also get a set of channeling gear.

I tend to be quite offensive player (demon barb, cleric, psychic etc) and consider dps more important than dph, I like to kill my opponents quickly.

Some points I'd like to have covered out:
- Which culti is overall better when it comes to dropping targets quickly
- Chi management (sage seems better but I'd like to know how demon wizards cope)
- Is Sage wizard too fragile with non-endgame gears?

If you have any other questions, ask away. b:victory

XXHotXx - Morai

imo there is no point to pick sage wizard over demon at this point of the game

you will need that extra p def, that extra chann, that extra CCs (chances)

Colum - Raging Tide

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

imo there is no point to pick sage wizard over demon at this point of the game

you will need that extra p def, that extra chann, that extra CCs (chances)

How about the chi management? I asked around from my friends and some were upset they chose demon because apparently theyd have so much easier time with the chi but I don't know b:surrender I just thought to compensate it with cloud eruption and chi pots, hoping it would be enough.

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide

Dropping enemies quickly I don't think is an option. By watching some wizard videos (which are not many) you can see it takes time to try that special killer combo. Much like Mystics. And it's culti independent.

Chi stops being a problem when you get the primal Glacial Embrace. You can alternate from it to Stone Barrier when you are in a safe spot. Before that primal update, my genie was frequently starving due to my abusive use of Cloud Eruption. Now I don't have it on genie anymore.

The fragility of Sage wizards is said to exist because of their inferior Stone Barrier. I've never done that math (gonna see if I do it some time), but as we can't heal as effectively as other arcane classes I'd say the more defense the better.

What I can say about the demon path is: great control, even without Emberstorm. You must have noticed that when you checked both paths bonuses. No need for me to sell this.

The rest is pretty much what XXHotXx said. You'll need the extra defense and CC chances to survive. We are not threats as killers as much as we are on controlling. Some flag carriers in NW rage pm me when I stop their movements. Even a low level wizard can annoy a lot when controlling the opponent.

I'd say if you want do kill stuff at your own time (which PvP-wise won't be much), go Sage. If you wanna wear down the opponent gambling on luck for that life saving proc, go Demon.

I picked Demon for the extra defense, more control skills and quicker channeling.

Hope it helped. ._.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

On my server Demon Wizards are actually not that popular unless you have crappy gear, or non-AA wiz. Go figure.

That being said, Sage wizard is not fragile, not even close.

XXHotXx - Morai

primal blue shield + faster channelling grants to demon one a chi sustain almost on pair with sage wizards

people underestimate the huge difference between sage stone barrier and demon one phy res. wise,
in a state of the game where that 1-2% more damage reduction means getting 4 digits damage instead of 5 digits demon stone barrier is a the way to go

sage bids? you don't need them-> wear red shield and drop a blade tempest instead.

nothing much else to add, sage wiz is completely outdated pvp-wise, for pve its the same

Boomz - Harshlands

always and at this stage in the game sage wizzy is stronger than demon in every possible way. Sage wizzy hits significantly harder than demon (5% more base on every skill which is amplified in so many way far far past 5%), has more defense with triple spark, lower chi costs, and can produce chi much quicker. The only advantage demon wizzy has is a bit more crit (which is pointless when i have 50% crit rate as sage), 30% more p def ( which is about maybe 1-1.5k but who cares when you got 45k+ p def), and channeling. However the channeling doesn't really count because sage channels certain skills like stone rain much faster than demon, the only channeling they get is from wellspring quaff (20%), but sage get +100% magic attack.

edit: sage wizzy also actually has as much cc if not more than demon ever since the expansion since the combo move spawned us a 4 sec 50% chance stun on frozen flame. Also sage wizzy have a skill called sage db which is one of the most hacking skills in existance if your lucky. If lucky you can potentially stun an entire squad of people for eternity.

edit 2: this is sage db:
Unleash the power of the dragon god to surround yourself
with a torrent of magical fire, igniting all enemies within
12 meters. Every 3 seconds the fire consumes 350 mana, dealing
base magic damage plus 4800 as Fire damage. Channeling continues
until your Mana is depleted or the spell is canceled.

Costs 1 Spark.

Sage version has a 20% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds.

Eoria - Harshlands

Using db in pvp is dumb.

XXHotXx - Morai

you actually have 45k p res if you are full buffed, on your self buff, that extra 6k p res (not 1.5k lawl) makes the difference between getting oneshotted by assassins or survive them

i tested sage wizard on a current retail endgame private server, it lasted 30 minutes before i switched back culti to demon

stone rain emberstorm pitfall hailstorm are not even close to sage CCs

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Using db in pvp is dumb.

Unless you set up on a cata, then trolololol.b:chuckle

Boomz - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

stone rain emberstorm pitfall hailstorm are not even close to sage CCs

i'll give you stone rain, but emberstorm and pitfall don't exist anymore they are now primal skills, hailstorm is a 17% higher chance, grats.

XXHotXx - Morai

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

i'll give you stone rain, but emberstorm and pitfall don't exist anymore they are now primal skills, hailstorm is a 17% higher chance, grats.

actually 50% chance compared to a 33% one is pretty good, the same thing works for emberstorm

i just spam it and when it procs on groups its massive

man the amount of disruption a ice prison + hailstorm + emberstorm can deliver is pretty nice in mass pvp

Boomz - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

actually 50% chance compared to a 33% one is pretty good, the same thing works for emberstorm

i just spam it and when it procs on groups its massive

man the amount of disruption a ice prison + hailstorm + emberstorm can deliver is pretty nice in mass pvp

the fact that you still have ember storm makes me laugh and know that you don't understand a wizard.

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary

Both have merits.

Personally, I like the sage one because in pvp situations where I need to keep stone barrier up for extended combat, I have more chi. Though I could switch to glacial embrace, doing so would drop my pdef too much. I like to be able to drop the extra AOEs that come with sage increased chi, and ability to spam distance shrink more since it costs a half as much (at 10 chi, you can cast it every 10 seconds for 60 chi a minute, when you make back 50 chi a minute from Master Li's technique). I mainly do NW/TW though, so situations where I'm 1 person against 1 person are limited.

If I were more interested in 1 versus 1 pk I could see how demon's benefits (increased single target control, higher pdef for dealing with incoming phys damage when you cant shrink away/call backup, and the aforementioned better channeling) would outweigh the sage benefits.

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

the fact that you still have ember storm makes me laugh and know that you don't understand a wizard.

lolwhat?

I recently switched from sage to demon, and have not yet bothered getting frozen flame. I quite like glacial snare and emberstorm as they are in demon version. I do admit as a sage wizard I love frozen flame, but as demon I do like emberstorm.

XXHotXx - Morai

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

the fact that you still have ember storm makes me laugh and know that you don't understand a wizard.

actually i do have frozen flame, but for a demon wizard i would seriously recommend to keep snare and emberstorm

we are not mystics with AS combo, we are not psys with the huge dps and passive amp, we are not demon venos with the 0def combo or clerics with 80k base damage and 1 sec cd cyclone

we have no dps and our spike damage is probably the worse @ current endgame, wizard is required to keep heavy support skills such demon emberstorm to have an impact on mass pvp fights,

else wiz is just a single target poke damage (we can't already call it burst damage anymore with the advent of lvl 10 passives)

also boomz, if you think i don't understand wizard go watch my youtube channel, if you have something better to offer, show me

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

nothing much else to add, sage wiz is completely outdated pvp-wise, for pve its the same

I was more expecting a comment saying wizards are obsolete in pvp currently. b:avoid

XXHotXx - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

we are not mystics with AS combo, we are not psys with the huge dps and passive amp, we are not demon venos with the 0def combo or clerics with 80k base damage and 1 sec cd cyclone

we have no dps and our spike damage is probably the worst @ current endgame, wizard is required to keep heavy support skills such demon emberstorm to have an impact on mass pvp fights,

else wiz is just a single target poke damage (we can't already call it burst damage anymore with the advent of lvl 10 passives)

^done that b:pleased

really f.e. back in time bids were adding 50% more base damage just by skill damage,

in a way that was really worth to land a bid rather than a blade tempest even if blade tempest was calculating base damage twice

now at very endgame bids add like 1/8th of base damage it's so so sad, we need a rework b:cry

i used to 3spark undine spark onehit semi-endgame HAs, now i hit 1/3 as hard... its so so sad

catshop177

Both, Frozen-flame + the new skill you get from combining pitfall + sandstorm, are not as good as people think. For sage sure you can get it since Sage Emberstorm is horrible to have over extra 4 second stun, But in all my opinion at this point of the game, Demon Wizard > Sage Wizard and I'll give you my reasons on why.

Demon wizard combined with Deity Stones, Cards Max'd out and old CC skills (that means having ember + pitfall etc) = deadly.

Sage mages excelled over Demon in TW usually because of the chi, but that factor is gone now thanks to primal shields.

Another thing I've noticed is the cooldown on those new skills, frozen-flame has 30 second cooldown and a long *** channel? So if you are demon wizard, you are an idiot for getting it over ember 50% aoe stun chance thats almost instant for 3 seconds. Not to mention Glacial Snare is a great CC (80% slow?) which can be spammed with low cool down along with emberstorm.
If you are sage i understand you have no choice but to get frozen-flame for extra stun, but I see no reason for demon wizard to get that skill with long *** cool down and channel and it's a stupid over-all.

Sage wizard passive gives 5% more dmg boost, but that is not big of a deal compare to demon stone barrier and cc you are sacrificing. I mean big deal you can hit 5 dmg more every 100 dmg you output!. That's only 250 more dmg every 5k dmg you do.

I always knew for a fact that sage mages excelled in TW, but that factor is gone thanks to primal water shield as I mentioned earlier.

Not to mention you can spam Stone Rain on demon now with 1 other fast channel skill (gush or pyro) for 20% chance to stun for 5 second I believe?

Let's face it, in open world pvp, CC + high defenses = everything now thanks to broken paralyses stun that can't be evaded at all.

As a sage wizard, I feel like after you use that frozen flame and tactical reversion (note which only works in open world map), you are a handicap. You can argue (oh what about ice prison and MS!...but really now are you going to say that? that's another 2 mins you have to wait to use them so GL).
And purify proc can't help you out as a sage wizard if you get caught often into paralyses stun and thats where demon cc and stone barrier plays its part.

Another thing is I feel like JosD is **** now on mages, thanks to the broken cards era, the dmg deferential is too high. And that is where our class excel...dmg deferential.
Rather than trying to be a washed-out version like auto class psy with skills like frozen flame etc, why not go full deity stone built and house-clean along wih demon low cooldown cc skills. Or if you are really the type of person that prefers defense > dmg out put, then go full vit stones, not even kidding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQx_io__zro&list=UU6DRKpOr5tBnPv0fRmZlosQ&index=3
(Demon wizard with full deity stones).

Boomz - Harshlands

catshop177 wrote: »

Both, Frozen-flame + the new skill you get from combining pitfall + sandstorm, are not as good as people think. For sage sure you can get it since Sage Emberstorm is horrible to have over extra 4 second stun, But in all my opinion at this point of the game, Demon Wizard > Sage Wizard and I'll give you my reasons on why.

Demon wizard combined with Deity Stones, Cards Max'd out and old CC skills (that means having ember + pitfall etc) = deadly.

Sage mages excelled over Demon in TW usually because of the chi, but that factor is gone now thanks to primal shields.

Another thing I've noticed is the cooldown on those new skills, frozen-flame has 30 second cooldown and a long *** channel? So if you are demon wizard, you are an idiot for getting it over ember 50% aoe stun chance thats almost instant for 3 seconds. Not to mention Glacial Snare is a great CC (80% slow?) which can be spammed with low cool down along with emberstorm.
If you are sage i understand you have no choice but to get frozen-flame for extra stun, but I see no reason for demon wizard to get that skill with long *** cool down and channel and it's a stupid over-all.

Sage wizard passive gives 5% more dmg boost, but that is not big of a deal compare to demon stone barrier and cc you are sacrificing. I mean big deal you can hit 5 dmg more every 100 dmg you output!. That's only 250 more dmg every 5k dmg you do.

I always knew for a fact that sage mages excelled in TW, but that factor is gone thanks to primal water shield as I mentioned earlier.

Not to mention you can spam Stone Rain on demon now with 1 other fast channel skill (gush or pyro) for 20% chance to stun for 5 second I believe?

Let's face it, in open world pvp, CC + high defenses = everything now thanks to broken paralyses stun that can't be evaded at all.

As a sage wizard, I feel like after you use that frozen flame and tactical reversion (note which only works in open world map), you are a handicap. You can argue (oh what about ice prison and MS!...but really now are you going to say that? that's another 2 mins you have to wait to use them so GL).
And purify proc can't help you out as a sage wizard if you get caught often into paralyses stun and thats where demon cc and stone barrier plays its part.

Another thing is I feel like JosD is **** now on mages, thanks to the broken cards era, the dmg deferential is too high. And that is where our class excel...dmg deferential.
Rather than trying to be a washed-out version like auto class psy with skills like frozen flame etc, why not go full deity stone built and house-clean along wih demon low cooldown cc skills. Or if you are really the type of person that prefers defense > dmg out put, then go full vit stones, not even kidding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQx_io__zro&list=UU6DRKpOr5tBnPv0fRmZlosQ&index=3
(Demon wizard with full deity stones).

nice story, however that full +12 demon wizzy with full diety... I hit a lil harder than him with 0 diety or DoTs.

edit: doesn't this guy also have a card set? if so his damage is awful for what he has.

XXHotXx - Morai

anyone at very endgame different from a demon josd, doesnt have the sustain\survivability to land our long channelling skills

and you wont hit harder respect a deity demon having unsharded same gears but sage

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

nice story, however that full +12 demon wizzy with full diety... I hit a lil harder than him with 0 diety or DoTs.

edit: doesn't this guy also have a card set? if so his damage is awful for what he has.

I've actually stated alot of str so I can weapon swap GoF wepons, you get the weapon proc and mid cast swap to ur magic weapon to zerk crit on magic, despite losing alot of int you still have a higher potential dph w/ crit and zerk combined.

This explains how 2 wizards w similar gear (?)(idk wat ur gear is) asides from dmg increasing stones can hit different values, and there is no chance at all that damage disparity may result from hitting different targets, or that the video is from June, or any other possible explanation asides from (possibly) the massive +dmg bonus from sage mastery.

Actually that not true, the way I hit keyboard buttons is so unskillful that the game automatically applies a -dmg debuff to all my attacks. being srs for a sec potential dmg output in this game is based almost entirely off of gear, ofc there is a miniscule amount of skill involved when you consider combinations of skills and the skill factor gets elevated a bit when you consider what players do to reach said potential (i.e. staying alive/not being cced) but this game = more gear = more dmg.

anyways I've actually retired from PWI, shark rage is a much more interesting game despite the numerous problems they are currently having.

Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've actually stated alot of str so I can weapon swap GoF wepons, you get the weapon proc and mid cast swap to ur magic weapon to zerk crit on magic, despite losing alot of int you still have a higher potential dph w/ crit and zerk combined.

This explains how 2 wizards w similar gear (?)(idk wat ur gear is) asides from dmg increasing stones can hit different values, and there is no chance at all that damage disparity may result from hitting different targets, or that the video is from June, or any other possible explanation asides from (possibly) the massive +dmg bonus from sage mastery.

Actually that not true, the way I hit keyboard buttons is so unskillful that the game automatically applies a -dmg debuff to all my attacks. being srs for a sec potential dmg output in this game is based almost entirely off of gear, ofc there is a miniscule amount of skill involved when you consider combinations of skills and the skill factor gets elevated a bit when you consider what players do to reach said potential (i.e. staying alive/not being cced) but this game = more gear = more dmg.

anyways I've actually retired from PWI, shark rage is a much more interesting game despite the numerous problems they are currently having.

Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

GoF is only available on physical weapons, and based on what you just said, you have no clue how GoF actually works, which makes you seem very ignorant.

I've actually stated alot of str so I can weapon swap GoF wepons, you get the weapon proc and mid cast swap to ur magic weapon to zerk crit on magic, despite losing alot of int you still have a higher potential dph w/ crit and zerk combined.

This is just LOL worthy. The stupidest **** ive seen on the forums in months.b:chuckle

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

GoF is only available on physical weapons, and based on what you just said, you have no clue how GoF actually works, which makes you seem very ignorant.

I've actually stated alot of str so I can weapon swap GoF wepons, you get the weapon proc and mid cast swap to ur magic weapon to zerk crit on magic, despite losing alot of int you still have a higher potential dph w/ crit and zerk combined.

This is just LOL worthy. The stupidest **** ive seen on the forums in months.b:chuckle

wow are you serious?? I think you are the one who doesn't know how GoF and weapon swapping works in this game.

Video Link for Proof

consider this my last gift to the PWI community.

GG noobs \o/

XXHotXx - Morai

i never personally tried but i think if you have a gof weapon geared during casting time it should calculate the proc

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

wow are you serious?? I think you are the one who doesn't know how GoF and weapon swapping works in this game.

Video Link for Proof

consider this my last gift to the PWI community.

GG noobs \o/

Nice way to make yourself look even dumber. GG moron. If you are gonna try and rick roll, at least be remotely funny. This...was not.

@Hot: GoF takes HP AFTER the cast/channel, this can be seen during skills like Rift where the channel time is long, GoF only procs when the damage portion of the skill is suppossed to hit. Which is precisely calculated for the prevention of such 'weapon swapping'.

Eoria - Harshlands

Y'all just got trolled. b:laughb:cryb:laugh

XXHotXx - Morai

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Nice way to make yourself look even dumber. GG moron. If you are gonna try and rick roll, at least be remotely funny. This...was not.

@Hot: GoF takes HP AFTER the cast/channel, this can be seen during skills like Rift where the channel time is long, GoF only procs when the damage portion of the skill is suppossed to hit. Which is precisely calculated for the prevention of such 'weapon swapping'.

i think a way to make this work out can be sorted somehow,

tests shall be done with gearing gof weapon and casting a MS f.e. while spamming celestial sword midcast that should proc weapon proc, as soon as you see the yellow animation, switch back

it's not that clear, theres some vid of faceroll swapping gears mid cast to decrease channelling time, worked pretty good, so its possible to find a way to make this work aswell

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

a video that is 100% not related to diondagger's responses.

i'm a bit sad. nobody has discussed the unfairness of the automatic damage debuff that I get for being so bad at this game... why is that??

could it be possible that people understood that the claim of a dmg debuff was in fact not true? could it be that people understood that there was just a bit of sarcasm involved?? if so what would this "bit of sarcasm" imply about the listed "reasons" for a dmg disparity?

in all fairness determining someones tone from text can be difficult. Objectively there was actually no possible way for you to understand that I was not being serious.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

being srs for a sec

this line was there just for fun and implies nothing.

anyways cya all later, or not b:thanksb:bye

p.s. I have always been full magic. I am mosty but not fully deity, and the video is an older one, though my stats were good at the time. More recent TW vid for dmg update.

p.p.s to OP sry for being off topic. demon vs sage? roll daggerspell

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i think a way to make this work out can be sorted somehow,

tests shall be done with gearing gof weapon and casting a MS f.e. while spamming celestial sword midcast that should proc weapon proc, as soon as you see the yellow animation, switch back

it's not that clear, theres some vid of faceroll swapping gears mid cast to decrease channelling time, worked pretty good, so its possible to find a way to make this work aswell

Tried it years ago, it doesn't work. GG.

nini330

LOL nice troll!

I can't believe there's ppl who fell for it. Haven't seen a post that funny for a while xD.