Do archers op?

Zoldi - Morai

Hum... just wanted to share one recent feedback that is totally related to this topic.
Last saturday my faction had two TW for a total of 4h30. This was against two different factions but for both TW the main targets (most dangerous people we had to deal with first) were archers...
So well... you could consider this is because they have better gears than the other classes in their faction (this is not totally wrong but not 100% true). Archers are just still a pain in the *** in TW because of the range, the purge and the way TW are designed...
If they were only DD with no purge I wouldn't say the same and this is why I consider that their roles have changed and that they are support as well.
And once again I'm not talking about 1v1. Those archers were dangerous when they were playing together. When you have, for example 4 archers in line hidding near a tower or when you have two archers on your left and two other ones on your right. In this configuration they are, in my opinion, more dangerous than any other class (playing together with same number of people). Because their range allow them to hit you from so far... Because if you try to reach them they gonna kite and then you will be focused by the other archers (multiple stuns until one of them purges you then focus fire and you're dead).
In NW this is different because maps are not designed the same way and you will less often see 2-3 R9.3 archers playing together.
In 1v1 you can more efficiently make them run and while they run they don't hit you so it's ok (it will then depend who is hitting first, if people are self buffed or fully buffed and how lucky archer is with purge)
But I honnestly wouldn't understand someone telling me that archer is the worst class in TW...

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

That is because you ppl always have an offensive strategy in mind. That is the problem. You won't get very far with extreme offensive strategies like you did back then.

Ever tried to just focus on defensive playing and kiting anything your opponent has to CD and then attack in the right situation. I owned anything on...you know!... with that strategy even @current meta.

PPL are so fixiated on being offensive that this is in fact their biggest weakspot. tbh, I play very aggressively with my barb too here on Morai, but I can afford that most of the times while still being in excellent defense. Main reason why I've rolled a barb.

If I know that I will go down easy then I focus on Defensives completely...analyse the opponent and hit when an opportunity opens. I preach this for months now that ppl should learn how to play defensively but no one is listening.

We came to the point in PWI where simply facerolling your keyboard while having used your credit card isn't going to let you win automatically. You now have to put actual effort and thought to your playing to be victorious even if the odds are against you. One might not be able to outgear others, but one can still outskill them. And most importantly...go for a patient playing style. wait for your turn and the one who gets impatient first will lose.

So there are no new attacking combos that can burst through any defense or the likes. It's the players skill and playing style in general that needs to adapt and that has been neccessary for a long time now. Cool thing is that most ppl have ignored it til this point. Trust me, if you still refuse adapting your playing style to a more thought-through level then you all will be in trouble even more so with the new update tomorrow.

That is true for any class btw. Not only Archer and Wizards. Sure it's easier for some classes to play defensively and some classes like Archers and Wizards need a good chunk of skill to be played defensively well. But only cuz it's harder doesn't mean it's impossible or that much worse compared to other classes.

You should be happy that we came to a point where finally matters alot. They did balance out quite a few things altho I agree that they might've gotten a bit overboard with sins DMG but oh well, maybe a future update will adress this issue. I'm looking forward to it.

man thats not the point, you can kite how much you want (how does archer kite paralyze doe?)

but how will the enemy consume his resources if you are not harassing him

also how will you kill the enemy if your dps is not enough to drop him down before charm ticks, nor you have enough dph to bypass the tick

you cant call this "balancing out", making some classes be able to match up 1on1 against some other classes while being undergeared, its not balance

its not a credit card thing, ask yourself if a "credit card your class" takes 1on1 an undergeared archer,
will he have same chances to win on this inverted roles scenario?

no he wont -> #balance (nooope)

@Zoldi, archers are a pain in the *** because they can purge, if they dont purge you, they have just poke damage and on pwi poking damage is not viable cause of the mere presence of hp charms

Zoldi - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

@Zoldi, archers are a pain in the *** because they can purge, if they dont purge you, they have just poke damage and on pwi poking damage is not viable cause of the mere presence of hp charms

I totally agree with that and that's why I now consider them more as support than as DD but well... purge make them OP and because they have purge (I know this is only for R9.3 archers tough) they can't have better DD ability anymore because they would be too OP... This is how it is...
Are archers OP ? Yes because of purge
Would they be OP without purge ? No
Now the question is, would archers be ok not to have purge bows anymore and in exchange get some rewamp on their skills ? Answer would probably be "no", and no archer ever complained about having purge on their bows.
The ones that are screwed are all the archers without any purge bow

XXHotXx - Morai

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

I totally agree with that and that's why I now consider them more as support than as DD but well... purge make them OP and because they have purge (I know this is only for R9.3 archers tough) they can't have better DD ability anymore because they would be too OP... This is how it is...
Are archers OP ? Yes because of purge
Would they be OP without purge ? No
Now the question is, would archers be ok not to have purge bows anymore and in exchange get some rewamp on their skills ? Answer would probably be "no", and no archer ever complained about having purge on their bows.
The ones that are screwed are all the archers without any purge bow

^+1, but archer its not a support class, cause it's not meant to be a support class

lets call it a support-oriented fvcked up class

consider that purge is situational in full buffs vs full buffs situation,

in a self buffs both sides scenario purge wont have any impact on the fight,

on a full buffs archer vs self buffs target, purge doesnt have any impact aswell, yet archer is still one of the easiest classes to control and they are really squishy (unlike sins that are survivability gods)

for the damage they (don't) deal and for their new "support-oriented" role, i'd say tidal protection would've more sense and would be more balanced on archers than on assassins that are DD cannons

btw, what joe said about learning new strategies made me think about archer for a sec...

you know what would be op? a demon archer assisted by a demon veno that procs demon ironwood
but this OP thing its "a lot of veno and very little of archer"

this thing made me also think that the game is taking a mass-PvP-only direction, since the 1on1 balance is really really messed up

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

... someone who plays with his brain in gear rather then clicking killskills. No wonder you tend to be good at PvP Joe

That said, some classes still have it way easier then others when it comes to offense and defense. Sin would definately rate the top of my list for being overwhelmingly powerful:
- 2 speed skills (BM also has 2, seeker has one, barb has natural speed boosts in untamed form)
- Stealth skills
- Primary damage stat synergy with critrate increase (dex for damage), only Archer has this as well.
- Instant chi gain skill with moderate cooldown. Other melee classes do not have this.
- Can ignore the penalty for sacrificial weapons since bloodpaint recovers more HP then you lose.This is a lie, and can be said for any melee class in Pve, in PvP it benifits HA classes more due to higher defenses.
- 2 teleportation skills to close to melee range (BM and Seeker each have one). This is a lie, Bm's have Tiger leap, and Real in.
- Status evasion skill makes them difficult to cc. No other class has this.This is a lie, seekers, bm's, mystics, and psy's (semi have due to SoR).
- Death negation skill. No other melee class has this.This is another lie, barbs have this, and it also returns 2 sparks.

These perks add up, especially when starting a fight or getting back into one in mass-pvp, the chi gain skill and bloodpaint can make all the difference(*facepalm* in PvP bloodpaint makes little difference, except for maybe Blood frenzy, which only last 20 secs and has a 5min cd). Historically, the offset for sins was frailty, but +10 gear and S cards beefed their hitpoins enough that that is no longer a liability.

Wow you are just so mis-informed. Can you please just stop talking about things like this because you clearly, lack facts.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

^+1, but archer its not a support class, cause it's not meant to be a support class

lets call it a support-oriented fvcked up class

consider that purge is situational in full buffs vs full buffs situation,

in a self buffs both sides scenario purge wont have any impact on the fight,

on a full buffs archer vs self buffs target, purge doesnt have any impact aswell, yet archer is still one of the easiest classes to control and they are really squishy (unlike sins that are survivability gods)

for the damage they (don't) deal and for their new "support-oriented" role, i'd say tidal protection would've more sense and would be more balanced on archers than on assassins that are DD cannons

btw, what joe said about learning new strategies made me think about archer for a sec...

you know what would be op? a demon archer assisted by a demon veno that procs demon ironwood
but this OP thing its "a lot of veno and very little of archer"

this thing made me also think that the game is taking a mass-PvP-only direction, since the 1on1 balance is really really messed up

Sigh. Archers have higher dps output than sins. This has been tested, and if you want i can run a few test myself so that maybe you will get it straight. IF they traded the archers range for tidal, then you would complain archers are OP. All i hear is complaints, but i don't hear anything that you can do to deal with a problem, just how you want it to go away, which solves nothing.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Still. that is the only balancing issue we have in the game + Sins tidal protects them only against debuffs and the like so it would always be a smart choice to come up with a strategy without them to begin with. Sins with tidal especially while fighting magical classes have no possibility to avoid the dmg they receive cept for genie and apo like every other class as well. THAT is THE no1 weakspot of sins.

If most ppl would put some effort into learning how to play defensively they might find themselves at a point where they could actually abuse that one weakness to overcome their very own nemesis -> Assassins.

Sure sins are kinda unbalanced atm and I don't wanna talk that down. But they are not something like invincible gods. They just have the odds on their side.

PS (off-topic): If you take into account all this stuff then you see why some classes got buffs and some did not. So you see, I don't wanna play selfbuffed because I'm bored. I wanna play selfbuffed because the game is designed that way. Each and every class got their strenghts and weaknesses. If you take away the weaknesses (in most cases by buffing them) then you blur the whole image of balance and you all do that on purpose. Most of you defend buffed PvPing while claiming that some classes are OP and others UP.

I dont mean to sound rude but you saying the no1 weak spot of sin is not having avoiding damage skills like focused mind(Due having tidal on obviously)? Most other classes dont have such skills that would remotely compare to what tidal offers by mostly taking away debuffs from enemies. Arguing not having something like WoG of archers on top of it as weakness is just dumb. Or if that truly is the biggest weakness sin got, tells pretty much all one needs to know how balanced class we talking bout.

This is archer forum and most of us who pay attention to this thread play archer mains I suspect. That in mind, no amount of defensive strategies will counter what sins got if they are remotely on your gear or skill level. Can I beat god awful sins? Yes, does it mean sins arent ridiculously broken? No. Sins have been argued so heavily I dont see much point going there but with primal updates skill difference I require to beat sins has become ridiculous when gear is similar. Most times best I can do is kite till I get support, which I can only do if the sin is bad. Good sin and its pretty much gg from the start, you can stall a bit but they will get you sooner than later.

As for buffed PvP and "defending" it. Its simply how things go, its not because its balanced, its because people mostly do group PvP events like NW/TW where you will be more or less fully buffed most of the time. 1vs1s and whatnots are marginal part of PvP in this game compared to those 2 events. This to me is the reason why considering full buffs is relevant, its simply too large part of PvP to be ignored.

Ps. As for the whole purge convo, give me damage to kill ppl w/o purge and I will gladly trade as it beats waiting on getting lucky with proc and purging.

Edit: Figured, Dion comes and wins the competition for dumbest post of the day. Please prove archers got higher dps than sins. In theory, to an extent archers might beat sins while sparked though we dont get remotely to the numbers zerk crits land. But one would have to fail to realize sins, even DPHing or PKing are sparked quite a bit of the time as they **** chi.

Joe - Morai

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

I dont mean to sound rude but you saying the no1 weak spot of sin is not having avoiding damage skills like focused mind(Due having tidal on obviously)? Most other classes dont have such skills that would remotely compare to what tidal offers by mostly taking away debuffs from enemies. Arguing not having something like WoG of archers on top of it as weakness is just dumb. Or if that truly is the biggest weakness sin got, tells pretty much all one needs to know how balanced class we talking bout.

This is archer forum and most of us who pay attention to this thread play archer mains I suspect. That in mind, no amount of defensive strategies will counter what sins got if they are remotely on your gear or skill level. Can I beat god awful sins? Yes, does it mean sins arent ridiculously broken? No. Sins have been argued so heavily I dont see much point going there but with primal updates skill difference I require to beat sins has become ridiculous when gear is similar. Most times best I can do is kite till I get support, which I can only do if the sin is bad. Good sin and its pretty much gg from the start, you can stall a bit but they will get you sooner than later.

As for buffed PvP and "defending" it. Its simply how things go, its not because its balanced, its because people mostly do group PvP events like NW/TW where you will be more or less fully buffed most of the time. 1vs1s and whatnots are marginal part of PvP in this game compared to those 2 events. This to me is the reason why considering full buffs is relevant, its simply too large part of PvP to be ignored.

Ps. As for the whole purge convo, give me damage to kill ppl w/o purge and I will gladly trade as it beats waiting on getting lucky with proc and purging.

Edit: Figured, Dion comes and wins the competition for dumbest post of the day. Please prove archers got higher dps than sins. In theory, to an extent archers might beat sins while sparked though we dont get remotely to the numbers zerk crits land. But one would have to fail to realize sins, even DPHing or PKing are sparked quite a bit of the time as they **** chi.

Nah, I wasn't really riging on the whole weakness thing in terms of others having significantly worse buffs in comparision to Tidal. It's more about the fact that most sins are getting pretty confident with Tidal on. Just watch them fight. Most sins get overboard and think that nothing can stop them anyways cuz of tidal so that's pretty much the weakspot I was talking about -> the allover arrogance of sins xDD Sorry for not clarifying this. It's more a player-related weakspot then it is a game-related one.

I don't even know myself how this got caught up to sins again. Archer are amazing. Maybe sins are broken a bit, doesn't matter. Archer still do a nice job against other classes. We should move away from the whole "Sins are OP and broken"-thing and just hope that the devs will do their job in balancing out the classes. Maybe there is an unknown fix alrdy included in the very update we will get in a few hours, who knows.

opkossy

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sigh. Archers have higher dps output than sins. This has been tested

Hahahaha... hahahaha... hahaha... oh wow. Thanks. I needed that laugh.

It's especially hilarious since we already know from testing that between an archer and an assassin with the same gear (bow included), the assassin will out-DPS the archer thanks to their selfbuffs and ability to **** chi out without a care in the world.

If you seriously think that DPS is something archers can even come close to sins on, you really need to take a step back and re-learn the basics on archers and assassins. Though if you were joking/being sarcastic, it was a great laugh and I appreciate it.

XXHotXx - Morai

OPKossy wrote: »

Hahahaha... hahahaha... hahaha... oh wow. Thanks. I needed that laugh.

xD indeed

does he even know what is dps i wonder..

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

someone said in pwi the archer was considered like OP class, this is true?

No.

/thread