Do archers op?

Colum - Raging Tide

Archers are the only thing Im scared of in NW. b:surrender

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Probably because you're severely undergeared on a server full of end game archers.

Don't worry, when you match their gear you can 1 shot them no problem. It's wizards, venos and psys you should worry more about.

Evryn - Morai

My vote on the most OP class is still sin. It has everything in a neat package:
- Selfhealing with BP. (Incidentally, I consider Bloodpaint the most broken skill in the game as it allows any melee class with it to solo - and basically negates the negative effects of sacrificial strike. Imho it should trigger on skilluse only, not on brainless aps)
- Dex both boosts weapon dmg and critrate, so their damage output is insane
- Chi generating skill, rather cheap too. Don't need Li's to give you that early boost.
- Movement speed skill to boost their already fast speed.
- Spike damage skills that stack, useful for charm bypass (but will take a while to recover after use)
- Stealth that allows them to bypass mobs in most instances - useful for farming anything (solo nuemas for instance, or solo bigroom in FC)

In a nutshell, they're easy to level, and good in both PVE and PVP scenarios. I'm guessing they originally had fragility as their counterbalance, but the primal passives and cardsets make them as tanky as some true tanks...

Joe - Morai

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

My vote on the most OP class is still sin. It has everything in a neat package:
- Selfhealing with BP. (Incidentally, I consider Bloodpaint the most broken skill in the game as it allows any melee class with it to solo - and basically negates the negative effects of sacrificial strike. Imho it should trigger on skilluse only, not on brainless aps)
- Dex both boosts weapon dmg and critrate, so their damage output is insane
- Chi generating skill, rather cheap too. Don't need Li's to give you that early boost.
- Movement speed skill to boost their already fast speed.
- Spike damage skills that stack, useful for charm bypass (but will take a while to recover after use)
- Stealth that allows them to bypass mobs in most instances - useful for farming anything (solo nuemas for instance, or solo bigroom in FC)

In a nutshell, they're easy to level, and good in both PVE and PVP scenarios. I'm guessing they originally had fragility as their counterbalance, but the primal passives and cardsets make them as tanky as some true tanks...

Well I guess I could just write...yeah but...and everyone would alrdy know what I'm about to say xDDDDDDDD Still here goes.

In nearly all aspects you have listed are (STR-built) barbs by far superior to sins. Cept for the permanent sparking capability of sins which is a huge + for them but still. A maxed out barb with 54k HP (STR full +12 with vits) and a basic PDEF of 50k in tiger form can't be killed by any sin. Oh well, dmg-wise a full deity sin could kill such a barb, but that sin won't live long enough to do so. That's no exaggeration, I'm serious.

Note: I hope some sins don't start like: "Nuuh I'm OP, you can't kill me through tidal and all my precious buffs!"...if you are a sin and have that line on mind...please just shut it or try to kill a maxed buffed barb. He could pratically go afk and you won't be able to kill him as long as he is charmed! Simply try it (:

BTT: PPL still compare classes in kinda weird circumstances.

If we are talking about fully buffed against fully buffed then an Archer got a huge advantage. If just selfbuffed then they will die extremely fast and it renders their purge literally useless (in most cases! Against chars like Clerics/Wizards/Mystics it's still extremely effective).

So why would Archer fight selfbuffed against others? Because not any class can purge and it's just extremely unfair to fight selfbuffed against a fully buffed end-game char. Doesn't matter if its a veno/Archer/Barb/BM or anyone that manages to purge effectively. It is just unfair so I won't even go for that. In mass PvP yes. But being fully buffed has no place in 1on1 cept if ppl are ignorant morons. IJS and imho if you can't play your end-game toon self buffed in a 1on1 then you can't play at all and should've saved the money for better things. Considering all odds. Self buffed 1on1s are the closest thing of equal and fair fighting in this game. If your class is simply stronger then another then thats that but doesn't matter at all.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Well I guess I could just write...yeah but...and everyone would alrdy know what I'm about to say xDDDDDDDD Still here goes.

In nearly all aspects you have listed are (STR-built) barbs by far superior to sins. Cept for the permanent sparking capability of sins which is a huge + for them but still. A maxed out barb with 54k HP (STR full +12 with vits) and a basic PDEF of 50k in tiger form can't be killed by any sin. Oh well, dmg-wise a full deity sin could kill such a barb, but that sin won't live long enough to do so. That's no exaggeration, I'm serious.

Note: I hope some sins don't start like: "Nuuh I'm OP, you can't kill me through tidal and all my precious buffs!"...if you are a sin and have that line on mind...please just shut it or try to kill a maxed buffed barb. He could pratically go afk and you won't be able to kill him as long as he is charmed! Simply try it (:

You're too biased for your own good.

Joe - Morai

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

're too biased for your own good.

It might be my mistake to think that anyone would be able to pull off what I'm talking about. Ya granted. Maybe wr got too many big-mouthed casual players here. If someone has a big-mouth I always think that that person can play at max. Sorry if I'm deadly wrong with that assumption again and again. But it's not my fault that most ppl like you must have only fought against complete failures to get that blurred images about nearly anything endgame-wise.

Like I said. Anyone skilled will always just play selfbuffed. If you know you are good then you know that there is no need to hide behind other classes buffs. Not as an archer, psy, sin, barb nor any other class. If you are skilled you are able to rely on your classes strenghts to equal the lack of buffs out by far. Like I said too. It's the closest thing to fair competition there is.

It doesn't matter if sins got a slight advantage now and can kill a single class (archer) very easy most of the time. Thats just one class. I wouldn't care about it that much. Still a skilled player would still try beating this sin as an archer and find a way around all those disadvantages. Most don't e en try = no skilled player.

For me its all about skill and the effort ppl are putting into something. If you put enough effort into something then you can only be a great player or be very skilled in what ever you put that effort on. Skilled ppl will never cease to show-off. Why? Too long explaination. Should be common sense after that background.

opkossy

Psst.

The two of you....


We're on the OFFICIAL server's forums. Not a private server's. That means discussing p-servers isn't allowed here and trying to call someone out based on a private server of all things is kinda laughable.

Stop it.

teikiatsu11

It comes down to a mixture of skill and gear, I can take on certain r9r3 archers in my base r9 (minus the axes and belt, I use g15 GoF unicorn's tragedy) and I can still beat them, it isn't easy but I can beat them.
To all the people complaining about sins yes they are very strong but they aren't as godly as people seem to believe I can handle sins just fine on my bm. Anyone who knows how to play their class is OP, sins are incredibly predictable they'll go for stuns right away so throw on anti-stun and guess what? You just ruined their whole plan and now oh my god you can beat them! I guess people were so busy complaining about certain classes being OP they forgot we still have way to counteract that! What a strange concept PWI would be balanced huh? Learn your enemy and you can win no problem, skill does in fact play a big part in pvp.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

teikiatsu11 wrote: »

It comes down to a mixture of skill and gear, I can take on certain r9r3 archers in my base r9 (minus the axes and belt, I use g15 GoF unicorn's tragedy) and I can still beat them, it isn't easy but I can beat them.
To all the people complaining about sins yes they are very strong but they aren't as godly as people seem to believe I can handle sins just fine on my bm. Anyone who knows how to play their class is OP, sins are incredibly predictable they'll go for stuns right away so throw on anti-stun and guess what? You just ruined their whole plan and now oh my god you can beat them! I guess people were so busy complaining about certain classes being OP they forgot we still have way to counteract that! What a strange concept PWI would be balanced huh? Learn your enemy and you can win no problem, skill does in fact play a big part in pvp.

BMs got a massive boost in 1v1 pvp ability with OP primal skills. 1v1 is a totally different story as an archer, it's not even worth trying against most classes if they can match your gear. The class advantage is too great.

This is my opinion of the current 1v1 tiers but I'm not too sure if Cleric or Mystic should be higher or if Wiz should be lower.

TOP TIER: BMs, Sins, Barb, Wiz
MID TIER: Cleric, Veno, Seeker
BOTTOM TIER: Mystic, Archer, Psychic

XXHotXx - Morai

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

BMs got a massive boost in 1v1 pvp ability with OP primal skills. 1v1 is a totally different story as an archer, it's not even worth trying against most classes if they can match your gear. The class advantage is too great.

This is my opinion of the current 1v1 tiers but I'm not too sure if Cleric or Mystic should be higher or if Wiz should be lower.

TOP TIER: BMs, Sins, Barb, Wiz
MID TIER: Cleric, Veno, Seeker
BOTTOM TIER: Mystic, Archer, Psychic

seen the direction this game is taking with lvl 10 passives, i kind of agree generally..

imo

TOP TIER: Sins
HIGH-END TIER: BMs, Barbs
MID TIER: Clerics, Venos, Seekers, Psychics, Mystics
LOW TIER: Wizards
LOWER TIER: Archers

Sage Assassins have class advantages that go way beyond the ridicolous,
followed by bms and barbs with uncounterable CCs, purges and highest survivability

Then we have EPs close to be unkillable unless one of the 3 top tier classes shows up, EPs dominate the team fights with heals and heavy CCs,
demon venos with "unpurgeable stone barrier", purge and demon ironwood, seekers with 110% base damage magic zerkcrits, psys and mysts magic damage DPSers

At the bottom we have wizards with their, by the 19th august, useless debuffs, no DPS no DPH and no CCs (******n it)

but at the real bottom there are the EAs... their damage is even more consistently nerfed after lvl 10 attack passives that wont affect their auto attacks for demon ones, sage ones will rely on debuffs that will be negligible.... they can be easily controlled by any other class... and they also have crappy survivability

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

teikiatsu11 wrote: »

It comes down to a mixture of skill and gear, I can take on certain r9r3 archers in my base r9 (minus the axes and belt, I use g15 GoF unicorn's tragedy) and I can still beat them, it isn't easy but I can beat them.
To all the people complaining about sins yes they are very strong but they aren't as godly as people seem to believe I can handle sins just fine on my bm. Anyone who knows how to play their class is OP, sins are incredibly predictable they'll go for stuns right away so throw on anti-stun and guess what? You just ruined their whole plan and now oh my god you can beat them! I guess people were so busy complaining about certain classes being OP they forgot we still have way to counteract that! What a strange concept PWI would be balanced huh? Learn your enemy and you can win no problem, skill does in fact play a big part in pvp.

Just because something has a counter that does NOT mean it isn't overpowered. If the counters are weak/ridiculously hard to pull off than the skill/proc/class is rather overpowered plain and simple as that.

@The 1 on 1 bit, meh if the game ever becomes where 1 on 1 fights allowed us to earn what nw does, then I would see both of your points, but until then... I personally feel the game shouldn't be focusing on balancing the game for 1 on 1.

Obviously it does suck that certain classes perform insanely better than other classes in the exact same gear. (After all I have experienced this myself) Hell it's not only sucky it's down right infuriating, especially when classes that should be more of a support/squishier/whatever else i'm missing... than you are... simply aren't, it absolutely makes you want to pull your hair out. b:avoid

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

I'd happily take all my gear and transfer it to another class (obviously taking into account armour types.

All classes are better than an archer. whatever an archer can do, another class does better than archer can and for a smaller cost. The most feared aspects of an archer are relatively mild compared to what is available to other classes by comparison.

This includes:
Purge,
Antistun.
Metal and physical damage.
Generate chi.
Self Purify. (For those archers that know how to purify themselves anyways b:chuckle)
Evasion (lol clearly running out of ideas about what archers are even supposed to be good at)
Debuffs.
Mobility

Perhaps the only exception is Range. But then look at the sage vs demon thread in these forums and you can see just how low of a factor range is considered to be, and in any case, from a defensive point of view, most classes can kite better than an archer too.

This is without mentioning buffs and heals which every class has. (Archer buffs are negligible/make an insignificant difference since they are so easily overridden... And also take an absolute joke of an amount of time to channel and cast compared to say... Insta +35 def level/insta stacking pdef/etc buffs)

Ohwait I just did.

teikiatsu11

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

BMs got a massive boost in 1v1 pvp ability with OP primal skills. 1v1 is a totally different story as an archer, it's not even worth trying against most classes if they can match your gear. The class advantage is too great.

This is my opinion of the current 1v1 tiers but I'm not too sure if Cleric or Mystic should be higher or if Wiz should be lower.

TOP TIER: BMs, Sins, Barb, Wiz
MID TIER: Cleric, Veno, Seeker
BOTTOM TIER: Mystic, Archer, Psychic

I like the boost bm's got in 1v1 situations but yeah some classes have gotten really screwed over with the last few updates. I can say this though full josd archers are pretty kick *** I watched one tank 5 different people and win but that was before the primal update I don't think he could get away with that now, not with all the new stuff that's been released. Still it was pretty awesome to watch.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just because something has a counter that does NOT mean it isn't overpowered. If the counters are weak/ridiculously hard to pull off than the skill/proc/class is rather overpowered plain and simple as that.

@The 1 on 1 bit, meh if the game ever becomes where 1 on 1 fights allowed us to earn what nw does, then I would see both of your points, but until then... I personally feel the game shouldn't be focusing on balancing the game for 1 on 1.

Obviously it does suck that certain classes perform insanely better than other classes in the exact same gear. (After all I have experienced this myself) Hell it's not only sucky it's down right infuriating, especially when classes that should be more of a support/squishier/whatever else i'm missing... than you are... simply aren't, it absolutely makes you want to pull your hair out. b:avoid

I survive perfectly fine in NW against higher geared players and can be ganked by multiple sins, archers, seekers, bm's, barbs and various casters and live long enough to take a few of them with me. I'm not insanely overpowered but I do know who to priortize as my first target I run down the list but if I know I'm screwed I throw on AD or IG and get my distance from the targets, or if I have heavy DD's behind me, I drop hf and even if I die I love watching them all get bombed by my nation. b:victory

gamesend

Archer is only class without a heal of any kind... ( Skipping Serrated Arrow's bleed HP regen of 100 every time it bleeds over 10 seconds ) Demon Archer gaining Chi is a royal pain.... Def need genie or pots for that....

BM, Sin, Seeker and barb class all outrange EA with certain attacks.... Yes Archers have a couple of skills to increase range... for up to 8 seconds ( or 8 attacks, Maybe 12 with quickshot Demon quicken )

HA Gets Way better PD and only a fraction less MD, AA gets way more MD and less PD ( which is made up with PD neck and belt )
HA Endgame will have 50k+ PD and 30k+ MD Buffed
AA Endgame will have 40k+ MD and 30k+ PD
EA Will have roughly 20K+ PD and 20K + MD

Insta cast, or Full R9S3 Mages have a lot of channel reduction, meaning they can attack faster than EA, And ALL Mage classes hit harder.... Previously Mage class opting for channel reductions faced defense penalty. Not anymore...


The only reason EA Seems OP is that EA has to know what they are doing to Survive against any decent geared toon... We have to know which pots to apply, which att to hit, when to use each and every skill, otherwise odds are we going splat >.<


A clue... A R9S2 Cleric with +5 on weap will hit as hard or harder than a R9S3 +12 Archer....
A R9S3 Sin will hit way way harder than an Archer but hit faster, with Bloodpaint annd have movement status buff...
Any HA class can heal more HP than they have every second, same for Sins...

Any Mage class can heal themselves back to full HP anytime they choose....


Seriously? Archers OP? LOL.... naw, we just hit before being seen b:chuckle

Jaabg - Sanctuary

gamesend wrote: »

A R9S3 Sin will hit way way harder than an Archer but hit faster, with Bloodpaint annd have movement status buff...

What does bp do in pvp? if you hit 60k, you get 1.2k hp back. If you are hitting 60k, chances are 1.2k hp is not a big chunk of hp.

gamesend

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

What does bp do in pvp? if you hit 60k, you get 1.2k hp back. If you are hitting 60k, chances are 1.2k hp is not a big chunk of hp.

Sage BP 5% Blood Suck

5% of 60K is 3k

3K times however many you kill with AoE = full HP



If BP Does nothing in PvP then have it removed b:laugh

opkossy

gamesend wrote: »

Sage BP 5% Blood Suck

5% of 60K is 3k

3K times however many you kill with AoE = full HP



If BP Does nothing in PvP then have it removed b:laugh

Sage BP does not work that way. It's 3% for sage, 2% for demon/levels 1-10.

... and if you're fighting a group of people that you can AoE for 60k without anything else, BP or not they don't have a chance against you.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

That doesn't mean it's not a heal...

You don't have to hit 60k per target to get a good amount of HP Back. Any HP back is good. It delays charm ticks and improves survivability.

The biggest issue with archer is the buffs. Every class trumps archer with regards to buffs.

When you compare the benefit of a classes buff to their ability to kill another class you will find that sins clerics and barbs are on top for a reason.

Verenor - Morai

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

What does bp do in pvp? if you hit 60k, you get 1.2k hp back. If you are hitting 60k, chances are 1.2k hp is not a big chunk of hp.

Chances are if you're hitting 60k, other people will hit around 1-2k (when ganked or in mass pvp scenarios). That means BP will be able to support sins even better in mass-pvp because BP will heal them for maybe the damage 1 or 2 of those people are doing: 1v5 would become 1v3 in damage-terms.

Considering sins also got Blood Frenzy, they can gain 20% BP for 20 seconds, usually enough to kill someone (key-word "usually"), so they would still go back to full HP in the end.

On-topic: Archers are low in PvP-tiers right now sure, though afaik from games, they balance out classes one after another (balance = making one suddenly OP), done so with Wiz, Bm, now sins, Archer will sooner or later have to be "balanced" as well.

Gib us tidal and ranged BP $_$

hiitsmeguys

Funny that archers think they're underpowered now, now that they can't just purge, quickshot and bypass charms with ease. Some skill is actually required to win in 1v1 situations but I can assure you archers are still close to the top of the food chain, sins were simply given what archers had in the past, an easy skill to bypass with no actual playing skill required to execute. Archers need to adapt their play style, the same as every class has to when updates come out, so many underutilized skills in pvp because archers don't want to change from what worked in the past.

Verenor - Morai

hiitsmeguys wrote: »

Funny that archers think they're underpowered now, now that they can't just purge, quickshot and bypass charms with ease. Some skill is actually required to win in 1v1 situations but I can assure you archers are still close to the top of the food chain, sins were simply given what archers had in the past, an easy skill to bypass with no actual playing skill required to execute. Archers need to adapt their play style, the same as every class has to when updates come out, so many underutilized skills in pvp because archers don't want to change from what worked in the past.

So many accusations with so little backing it up. Please tell how archer skills are still OP compared to other classes since NH-expansion.
If archers were given the same upgrade in primal skills as other classes we'd obviously use them in PvP strategies, but since we didn't, our old routines are still most effective.

If you beg the differ, please come up with concrete examples and not blanc accusations.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

hiitsmeguys wrote: »

Funny that archers think they're underpowered now, now that they can't just purge, quickshot and bypass charms with ease. Some skill is actually required to win in 1v1 situations but I can assure you archers are still close to the top of the food chain, sins were simply given what archers had in the past, an easy skill to bypass with no actual playing skill required to execute. Archers need to adapt their play style, the same as every class has to when updates come out, so many underutilized skills in pvp because archers don't want to change from what worked in the past.

Name a single skill archers got that is used for single target dmg. Well discounting metal skills for obvious reasons though.

Joe - Morai

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

So many accusations with so little backing it up. Please tell how archer skills are still OP compared to other classes since NH-expansion.
If archers were given the same upgrade in primal skills as other classes we'd obviously use them in PvP strategies, but since we didn't, our old routines are still most effective.

If you beg the differ, please come up with concrete examples and not blanc accusations.

One OP Archer skill is Arrow Inferno. That's the only way an Archer can kill me with. 3 sec reduced Charm CD is OP and affects all classes especially since it can't be purified. So It's like another 30% AMP for Archers with only a 60 sec CD (the effect itself lasts for 30 seconds!)

Any good archer can kill anything with equal gears only via that skill (ya cept for sins, that skill will most likely not hit).

I dunno why only a few Archers are using this skill regulary. The 1 Spark cost isn't that bad as well.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Joe - Morai wrote: »

One OP Archer skill is Arrow Inferno. That's the only way an Archer can kill me with. 3 sec reduced Charm CD is OP and affects all classes especially since it can't be purified. So It's like another 30% AMP for Archers with only a 60 sec CD (the effect itself lasts for 30 seconds!)

Any good archer can kill anything with equal gears only via that skill (ya cept for sins, that skill will most likely not hit).

I dunno why only a few Archers are using this skill regulary. The 1 Spark cost isn't that bad as well.

Because you obviously don't play an archer.

Joe - Morai

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Because you obviously don't play an archer.

That's absolutely no reasoning ._.

Dunno whats up with ppl these days. Do you think I see lots of Psys using deminished vigor on me? Nope, they are the same.

I have the feeling that most players (not only Archer) are bound to old (today uneffective) combos and playstyles and are simply resigning due to the fact that they don't work the way they used to thus leading them to claim that their class is Underpowered.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Joe - Morai wrote: »

That's absolutely no reasoning ._.

Dunno whats up with ppl these days. Do you think I see lots of Psys using deminished vigor on me? Nope, they are the same.

I have the feeling htat most players (not only Archer) are bound to old (today uneffective) combos and playstyles and are simply resigning due to the fact that they don't work the way they used to tghus leading them to claim that their class is Underpowered.

I don't see archers complaining in nw and tw about being underpowered b:surrender.

How many people still pk, duel these days compared to the time spent on nw and tw? I would assume miniscule. That is why i agree with Joe. People who are active in nw, tw, they use different strategies compared to those who are not that active. It shows when i run up to archers, and they stand there taking my beating. While had they moved, they could have killed me.

It's like demon bell proc+magic marrow = easy kill in archer mind. Any class with high refines and skills is OP. You just need to know how to use what you have. If you want to kill someone with auto attack, pwi is not like that anymore.

XXHotXx - Morai

I don't really get the "find new strategies" \ change playstyle thing

You have a skill set + genie skill set, that is the same for its 90% since 3-4 years, which are the ******n new strategies?

To kill something you need to land damage, there are basically 2 types of archer:

Demon Archer sta amp autoatk dps
Sage Archer sta amp debuffs+skill spam

both of them are outdated, first ones for autoattacks not getting benefit from primal attack passives, and second ones having all the debuffs nerfed by 80% their effect from tomorrow by primal defense passives, now pls which is the third (new) type of archer enlighten me.

You cant really have new strategies to land damage when debuffs are about to get nerfed to the ground, you cant find new combos or mechanics with genie debuffs (those are the only variable thing from one archer to the other), cause i am pretty sure any decent archer out there already tried anything conceivable regard its class skills mechanics.

Demon archer could try ztp metal chain with eruption fist, that could be a thing, too bad all these debuffs will be negligible starting from tomorrow

this game is just getting even more ****ed up from this Primal update,
i'd say the worst update from the dawn of pwi, it really ****ed up the whole gameplay

Few days ago i just realized i almost have the same base mag damage with my r8r+7 weapon than with my r9r3+12 weapon thanks to cards,

there is no strategies it's just all ****ed up

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

I don't really get the "find new strategies" \ change playstyle thing

You have a skill set + genie skill set, that is the same for its 90% since 3-4 years, which are the ******n new strategies?

To kill something you need to land damage, there are basically 2 types of archer:

Demon Archer sta amp autoatk dps
Sage Archer sta amp debuffs+skill spam

both of them are outdated, first ones for autoattacks not getting benefit from primal attack passives, and second ones having all the debuffs nerfed by 80% their effect from tomorrow by primal defense passives, now pls which is the third (new) type of archer enlighten me.

You cant really have new strategies to land damage when debuffs are about to get nerfed to the ground, you cant find new combos or mechanics with genie debuffs (those are the only variable thing from one archer to the other), cause i am pretty sure any decent archer out there already tried anything conceivable regard its class skills mechanics.

Demon archer could try ztp metal chain with eruption fist, that could be a thing, too bad all these debuffs will be negligible starting from tomorrow

this game is just getting even more ****ed up from this Primal update,
i'd say the worst update from the dawn of pwi, it really ****ed up the whole gameplay

Few days ago i just realized i almost have the same base mag damage with my r8r+7 weapon than with my r9r3+12 weapon thanks to cards,

there is no strategies it's just all ****ed up

That is because you ppl always have an offensive strategy in mind. That is the problem. You won't get very far with extreme offensive strategies like you did back then.

Ever tried to just focus on defensive playing and kiting anything your opponent has to CD and then attack in the right situation. I owned anything on...you know!... with that strategy even @current meta.

PPL are so fixiated on being offensive that this is in fact their biggest weakspot. tbh, I play very aggressively with my barb too here on Morai, but I can afford that most of the times while still being in excellent defense. Main reason why I've rolled a barb.

If I know that I will go down easy then I focus on Defensives completely...analyse the opponent and hit when an opportunity opens. I preach this for months now that ppl should learn how to play defensively but no one is listening.

We came to the point in PWI where simply facerolling your keyboard while having used your credit card isn't going to let you win automatically. You now have to put actual effort and thought to your playing to be victorious even if the odds are against you. One might not be able to outgear others, but one can still outskill them. And most importantly...go for a patient playing style. wait for your turn and the one who gets impatient first will lose.

So there are no new attacking combos that can burst through any defense or the likes. It's the players skill and playing style in general that needs to adapt and that has been neccessary for a long time now. Cool thing is that most ppl have ignored it til this point. Trust me, if you still refuse adapting your playing style to a more thought-through level then you all will be in trouble even more so with the new update tomorrow.

That is true for any class btw. Not only Archer and Wizards. Sure it's easier for some classes to play defensively and some classes like Archers and Wizards need a good chunk of skill to be played defensively well. But only cuz it's harder doesn't mean it's impossible or that much worse compared to other classes.

You should be happy that we came to a point where finally matters alot. They did balance out quite a few things altho I agree that they might've gotten a bit overboard with sins DMG but oh well, maybe a future update will adress this issue. I'm looking forward to it.

Evryn - Morai

... someone who plays with his brain in gear rather then clicking killskills. No wonder you tend to be good at PvP Joe

That said, some classes still have it way easier then others when it comes to offense and defense. Sin would definately rate the top of my list for being overwhelmingly powerful:
- 2 speed skills (BM also has 2, seeker has one, barb has natural speed boosts in untamed form)
- Stealth skills
- Primary damage stat synergy with critrate increase (dex for damage), only Archer has this as well.
- Instant chi gain skill with moderate cooldown. Other melee classes do not have this.
- Can ignore the penalty for sacrificial weapons since bloodpaint recovers more HP then you lose
- 2 teleportation skills to close to melee range (BM and Seeker each have one)
- Status evasion skill makes them difficult to cc. No other class has this.
- Death negation skill. No other melee class has this.

These perks add up, especially when starting a fight or getting back into one in mass-pvp, the chi gain skill and bloodpaint can make all the difference. Historically, the offset for sins was frailty, but +10 gear and S cards beefed their hitpoins enough that that is no longer a liability.

Joe - Morai

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

... someone who plays with his brain in gear rather then clicking killskills. No wonder you tend to be good at PvP Joe

That said, some classes still have it way easier then others when it comes to offense and defense. Sin would definately rate the top of my list for being overwhelmingly powerful:
- 2 speed skills (BM also has 2, seeker has one, barb has natural speed boosts in untamed form)
- Stealth skills
- Primary damage stat synergy with critrate increase (dex for damage), only Archer has this as well.
- Instant chi gain skill with moderate cooldown. Other melee classes do not have this.
- Can ignore the penalty for sacrificial weapons since bloodpaint recovers more HP then you lose
- 2 teleportation skills to close to melee range (BM and Seeker each have one)
- Status evasion skill makes them difficult to cc. No other class has this.
- Death negation skill. No other melee class has this.

These perks add up, especially when starting a fight or getting back into one in mass-pvp, the chi gain skill and bloodpaint can make all the difference. Historically, the offset for sins was frailty, but +10 gear and S cards beefed their hitpoins enough that that is no longer a liability.

I'm not denying that some classes do have some advantages over other classes but: You would need to point out if those classes have an offensive or defensive advantage. Any class is quite balanced on that account cept for sins. I agree with you on the most parts. Sins tidal gives them high defensive possibilities while der DMG output has also been increased to be kinda the top notch in the game.

Still. that is the only balancing issue we have in the game + Sins tidal protects them only against debuffs and the like so it would always be a smart choice to come up with a strategy without them to begin with. Sins with tidal especially while fighting magical classes have no possibility to avoid the dmg they receive cept for genie and apo like every other class as well. THAT is THE no1 weakspot of sins.

If most ppl would put some effort into learning how to play defensively they might find themselves at a point where they could actually abuse that one weakness to overcome their very own nemesis -> Assassins.

Sure sins are kinda unbalanced atm and I don't wanna talk that down. But they are not something like invincible gods. They just have the odds on their side.

PS (off-topic): If you take into account all this stuff then you see why some classes got buffs and some did not. So you see, I don't wanna play selfbuffed because I'm bored. I wanna play selfbuffed because the game is designed that way. Each and every class got their strenghts and weaknesses. If you take away the weaknesses (in most cases by buffing them) then you blur the whole image of balance and you all do that on purpose. Most of you defend buffed PvPing while claiming that some classes are OP and others UP.