Demon BP better?

Deltasin - Dreamweaver

I have seen at least two players turn down sage bp for demon bp. One tried to tell me that demon was better. If sage bp gives 1% more return heal and demon gives temporary increased evasion, why would you turn down sage bp?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

by being dumb

WannaBM - Archosaur

you have to choose to be either demon or sage. You can then learn all your skills demon or all your skills sage. So first look at the total skillset before deciding. If then you decide to be demon, you cannot learn sage skills.

For sins the main thing is if you want the APS bonus from demon spark. For PvE sins this is widely considered to be the best choise. Sage sins in turn get some skills that would be better for PvP, but i dont know what cuz im not a sin.

Atropah - Sanctuary

There is still the belief for a few people that either only demon bp is 60 minutes, or that the evasion buff of demon bp lasts the entire length. Both last 60 minutes, and the evasion buff for demons lasts only 18 seconds.

Beyond that it's just whether people think the extra 1% bp heal matters. I really don't care whether I get sage or demon bp because 99% of the time it doesn't make a difference, so it comes down to whoever is closest and easiest to reach to buff me. For squishies it makes a big deal, but for most of us any aoe of 3 or more mobs + 2% paint heal means full health, as well as aps + 2% paint heal means full health. With meridians and avatars and nuemas and spirit and highly refined gear and +2 attack stones it's not hard to get your entire health bar worth of heals in 1 second, even with just 2%. The extra 1% of sage, 50% more heals, is sometimes just overkill and you're healing a full health bar. So really it comes down to personal preference or whether you think you even need the extra heals.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

you have to choose to be either demon or sage. You can then learn all your skills demon or all your skills sage.

Pretty sure he's talking about people buffing other people. Like when a factionmate says "can I get paint please" and a sage and demon sin both offer, the person is then chosing demon over sage. Or maybe he's talking buff alts. My sage sin became my buff alt, but honestly it was more for the 60 minute buff then the 3% heals.

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

Only a nab would turn down sage BP for demon BP. 50% more evasion for 18 secs ish useless compared to 50% more BP heals.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

I dunno if they fixed it, but there was a time when both Demon and Sage BP claimed to give the same amount of bloodsuck at 3%.

If you take that without questioning, you're looking at Sage being 3% and Demon being 3% with the evasion buff. From that point of view, Demon is superior.

Though in reality, Sage is the superior one.

Zoldi - Morai

Assuming APS and not DPH, demon bp can give more HP than Sage.
Why? Because even if sage bp is 3% and demon one only 2%, usually demon (aps) sin deals much damage (with more triple sparking) which can give more HP back as a result.
People only look at 3% being superior to 2% but, for example, if sage sin deals 2k damage in X seconds and demon one deals 3k damage in that same time then both sins will get same amount of HP.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

Assuming APS and not DPH, demon bp can give more HP than Sage.
Why? Because even if sage bp is 3% and demon one only 2%, usually demon (aps) sin deals much damage (with more triple sparking) which can give more HP back as a result.
People only look at 3% being superior to 2% but, for example, if sage sin deals 2k damage in X seconds and demon one deals 3k damage in that same time then both sins will get same amount of HP.

All you're really saying is that with these two sins, the demon sin has 150% of the DPS that the sage sin has. That comparison becomes irrelevant as soon as you put both sins in a squad and have the sage sin paint both of them. Now the demon sin has 150% DPS and 150% paint heals.

Demon BP will never heal more than Sage.

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

Assuming APS and not DPH, demon bp can give more HP than Sage.
Why? Because even if sage bp is 3% and demon one only 2%, usually demon (aps) sin deals much damage (with more triple sparking) which can give more HP back as a result.
People only look at 3% being superior to 2% but, for example, if sage sin deals 2k damage in X seconds and demon one deals 3k damage in that same time then both sins will get same amount of HP.

Op was not asking if a demon sin is better than a sage sin. He was asking if sage BP was better/worse than demon bp. Bloodpaint alone is either 2% or 3%. Which is better?

\Damn, can you even count?
\\4.0 sage sin, and I do just fine, thanks

SunDownXIII - Dreamweaver

All I have to say is demon BP is better than no BP XD but unless you don't know how to count 3 is higher than 2 so what do you think?

Zanryu - Lothranis

Only idiots care so much about a difference of 1%.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Only idiots care so much about a difference of 1%.

Yes and no. As much as I love Sage Bloodpaint, at end game the difference is insignificant. However, that doesn't negate it's usefulness to lower leveled toons or even high level ones that don't have their gear maxed out.

The title of the thread asks if Demon BP is better than Sage, which it clearly is not. If the topic were about whether the advantages of Sage BP over Demon BP should sway your choice in culti, the answers in this thread would probably be very different.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Only idiots care so much about a difference of 1%.

So you mean those of us without endgame toons are idiots...

Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

Zoldi - Morai

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Op was not asking if a demon sin is better than a sage sin. He was asking if sage BP was better/worse than demon bp. Bloodpaint alone is either 2% or 3%. Which is better?

\Damn, can you even count?
\\4.0 sage sin, and I do just fine, thanks

Read my post again maybe ? I was only talking about BP...
(My sin was sage before the dph mode so I won't say a demon sin is better to me...)

@Mauntille : yeah, if the two sins are in the same squad this seems obvious to use sage bp, I didn't understand the first post that way.

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear

No matter whether you are endgame or not, sage is much better. When I hit a mob, I would much rather get a 7.5k heal than a 5k heal from bp. You cannot say that 1% doesn't matter, when it can make such huge differences.

Cantabrum - Archosaur

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Only idiots care so much about a difference of 1%.

zanryu for president
i never cared for sage bpor demon yet i let ppl rebuff me whit lvl 10 bp i dont really care lul yet iforget bp myself half of time xD

Zanryu - Lothranis

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So you mean those of us without endgame toons are idiots...

Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

Alright.. let's see.

...what? That 1% more has even LESS impact for non end game gear. Let's assume you hit 20k with your non end game toon. That's gonna give you 400 BP with Demon and 600 with Sage. A whole 200 difference. It'll take you around 5-6 hits to kill whatever it is you're on, even less if you're with a group (which if you're not end game, you likely are). Healing for 400 per hit alone is already more than enough for most mobs you'll end up fighting, the 200 extra isn't gonna save you.


There's not really any situation in the game right now where that extra 1% will ever save you. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but caring even a small amount about that extra 1% is just stupid.


Can't tell if trolling or just stupid. No, wait. I gave it another thought, and it turns out I can. It's the latter.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Alright.. let's see.

...what? That 1% more has even LESS impact for non end game gear. Let's assume you hit 20k with your non end game toon. That's gonna give you 400 BP with Demon and 600 with Sage. A whole 200 difference. It'll take you around 5-6 hits to kill whatever it is you're on, even less if you're with a group (which if you're not end game, you likely are). Healing for 400 per hit alone is already more than enough for most mobs you'll end up fighting, the 200 extra isn't gonna save you.


There's not really any situation in the game right now where that extra 1% will ever save you. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but caring even a small amount about that extra 1% is just stupid.


Can't tell if trolling or just stupid. No, wait. I gave it another thought, and it turns out I can. It's the latter.

Dude i heal 400 on bosses unsparked. My sparked damage in warsong heals me for 800-3.5k a tick, and thats just me soloing the bosses. You tell me a demon sin is gonna be able to survive off demon bp at 2.5 aps in aps gear? Hell no. 400 on bp? You are joking right? My wife heals that in g13, welcome to g16, where attack levels matter, and i get 800 bp ticks unsparked on warsong mobs. IF you dont know how gear works just say so. BP matters less in the endgame because of how defense scales in PvE. You take less damage, so you need less healing to make up for it, the opposite is for those who take high amounts of damage.

AoE situation? Don't even go there. Sage earthern rift+sage bp+sage subsea=pilling lunar without endgame gear and tanking it without BB. 3k BP heals on just a zerk crit. So 3k is nothing compared to 2k right? Please uninstall.

GG.

Zanryu - Lothranis

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Dude i heal 400 on bosses unsparked. My sparked damage in warsong heals me for 800-3.5k a tick, and thats just me soloing the bosses. You tell me a demon sin is gonna be able to survive off demon bp at 2.5 aps in aps gear? Hell no. 400 on bp? You are joking right? My wife heals that in g13, welcome to g16, where attack levels matter, and i get 800 bp ticks unsparked on warsong mobs. IF you dont know how gear works just say so. BP matters less in the endgame because of how defense scales in PvE. You take less damage, so you need less healing to make up for it, the opposite is for those who take high amounts of damage.

AoE situation? Don't even go there. Sage earthern rift+sage bp+sage subsea=pilling lunar without endgame gear and tanking it without BB. 3k BP heals on just a zerk crit. So 3k is nothing compared to 2k right? Please uninstall.

GG.

Guuuuuurl you cray. Hitting 13,500 unsparked on bosses is some impressive stuff bro.

Anywhoodle.

You're healing 800-3,500*2.5, that's 2,000-8,750 HP/second. An average of 5375.

A Demon sin of equal gear will heal 533-2,333*3.33, that's 1,774-7,768 HP/second. An average of 4,771.


The Sage sin isn't really getting a very significant amount more HP per second. You know what's doing the work for you? Sage Spark. Not Sage BP. The difference in BP isn't enough to matter a whole lot, that 25% damage reduction is.

So yeah, I think I'll stick by my claim that the 1% isn't really a big deal.

I did just fine on my Demon Sin when I played one, I do just fine now with any BP other than Sage, frankly the whole thing is overrated.

Also wowzers did you see my super cool math? Did I do okay? P-please tell me m-my math is r-right. Oh well, if it's not someone will correct it and I'll be right anyway!

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

I do love my demon BP on my auto-cultivation system, gives my bot a moment of augmented evasion that possibly saves his life if he decides to rebuff beneath many mobs.

I do also use OR demon BP or demon maze steps to increase evasion and make bigroom mobs easier to solo all at once.

I miss sage raving slash, subsea strike and that 1% extra heals from sage bp tho, A LOT.

But demon spark APS does a real lot of difference on DPS.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Only idiots care so much about a difference of 1%.

Yes, but Sage BP is 50% stronger than demon BP.

YES, sage bloodpaint IS that awesome.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I do love my demon BP on my auto-cultivation system, gives my bot a moment of augmented evasion that possibly saves his life if he decides to rebuff beneath many mobs.

I do also use OR demon BP or demon maze steps to increase evasion and make bigroom mobs easier to solo all at once.

I miss sage raving slash, subsea strike and that 1% extra heals from sage bp tho, A LOT.

But demon spark APS does a real lot of difference on DPS.



Yes, but Sage BP is 50% stronger than demon BP.

YES, sage bloodpaint IS that awesome.

That's a matter of perspective. You can use that to make something sound better than it really is, which is what your'e doing. Back in 10th grade my World History teacher told us a story. There was a race between the US, Russia, and Canada. The US took first, Russia second, and Canada third.

US to their country: We won the race!
Russia to theirs: We beat Canada!
Canada to theirs: We placed top 3!

Russia makes their performance look better by saying they beat another country, without including the fact they only came in second.

Canada made it look like they did very well placing in the top 3, when there were only three contestants anyway.

When you put these into perspective, including all the facts, you see that Russia and Canada did in fact lose, and were outperformed by the US. In the same way, when you specify that the "50% larger heal" is actually only a boost from 2% to 3%, it becomes much less impressive.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Guuuuuurl you cray. Hitting 13,500 unsparked on bosses is some impressive stuff bro.

Anywhoodle.

You're healing 800-3,500*2.5, that's 2,000-8,750 HP/second. An average of 5375.

A Demon sin of equal gear will heal 533-2,333*3.33, that's 1,774-7,768 HP/second. An average of 4,771.


The Sage sin isn't really getting a very significant amount more HP per second. You know what's doing the work for you? Sage Spark. Not Sage BP. The difference in BP isn't enough to matter a whole lot, that 25% damage reduction is.

So yeah, I think I'll stick by my claim that the 1% isn't really a big deal.

I did just fine on my Demon Sin when I played one, I do just fine now with any BP other than Sage, frankly the whole thing is overrated.

Also wowzers did you see my super cool math? Did I do okay? P-please tell me m-my math is r-right. Oh well, if it's not someone will correct it and I'll be right anyway!

Sage spark gets over written by windsheild. GG much?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

That's a matter of perspective. You can use that to make something sound better than it really is, which is what your'e doing. Back in 10th grade my World History teacher told us a story. There was a race between the US, Russia, and Canada. The US took first, Russia second, and Canada third.

US to their country: We won the race!
Russia to theirs: We beat Canada!
Canada to theirs: We placed top 3!

Russia makes their performance look better by saying they beat another country, without including the fact they only came in second.

Canada made it look like they did very well placing in the top 3, when there were only three contestants anyway.

When you put these into perspective, including all the facts, you see that Russia and Canada did in fact lose, and were outperformed by the US. In the same way, when you specify that the "50% larger heal" is actually only a boost from 2% to 3%, it becomes much less impressive.

This is called an equivication fallacy. While 3% is not much more impressive than 2%, you forgo the fact it IS 50% more bp heals. I don't care about your perspective, because the facts are it's 50% more. Those of us that have use sage BP and demon BP (at some piont) know that is makes a huge difference. To a BM it would make the biggest difference, mainly because of the low damage of fist/claw.

Fact is: 2% is 50% less than 3%, regardless of 'perspective'.

Nice try at minimization. GG.

Zanryu - Lothranis

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This is called an equivication fallacy. While 3% is not much more impressive than 2%, you forgo the fact it IS 50% more bp heals. I don't care about your perspective, because the facts are it's 50% more. Those of us that have use sage BP and demon BP (at some piont) know that is makes a huge difference. To a BM it would make the biggest difference, mainly because of the low damage of fist/claw.

Fact is: 2% is 50% less than 3%, regardless of 'perspective'.

Nice try at minimization. GG.

I'm not ignoring the fact that it's 50% more, I'm telling you that while 50% sounds impressive, it's actually not as much as you'd think.

Which of these sounds better?

I had a 1% gain!

I had a gain of 20!

I had a 50% gain!

Obviously, the last option is the most appealing. However once you put into perspective that the 50% gain is actually the same as the first two, it becomes less so.

Which is the entire point. That while 50% sounds impressive, it's only a small gain that has very little impact on actual gameplay.

Stop hanging around with Wayne. The GG disease seems to be spreading.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the fact that it's 50% more, I'm telling you that while 50% sounds impressive, it's actually not as much as you'd think.

Which of these sounds better?

I had a 1% gain!

I had a gain of 20!

I had a 50% gain!

Obviously, the last option is the most appealing. However once you put into perspective that the 50% gain is actually the same as the first two, it becomes less so.

Which is the entire point. That while 50% sounds impressive, it's only a small gain that has very little impact on actual gameplay.

Stop hanging around with Wayne. The GG disease seems to be spreading.

Because 1.2k isnt impressive compare to 800 right? I don't care for perspectives, I don't care what sounds more impressive. I PLAY a sin, almost every day. I know the difference in sage and demon bp. I can't be impressed by sage bp because I use it all the time, but don't try to minimize it's effects. It's doesnt need to be impressive, it just needs to heal me for 50% more than demon BP.

Zanryu you fail at trolling. GG.

Atropah - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A)Dude i heal 400 on bosses unsparked.

B)My sparked damage in warsong heals me for 800-3.5k a tick, and thats just me soloing the bosses.

C)BP matters less in the endgame because of how defense scales in PvE. You take less damage, so you need less healing to make up for it, the opposite is for those who take high amounts of damage.

D)AoE situation? Don't even go there. Sage earthern rift+sage bp+sage subsea=pilling lunar without endgame gear and tanking it without BB. 3k BP heals on just a zerk crit. So 3k is nothing compared to 2k right? Please uninstall.

I think you're making alot of points for Zanryu here.

A)Healing 400 hp unsparked would be healing 267 hp with demon. Not too much difference. A difference of 133 hp per attack is still going to take a while for an 8-15k hp sin to die and considering you're talking unsparked, so 2-2.86 aps, that's only 266-380 hp difference per second. We're talking a skill people base their culti choice around and yet it can be replaced by a single hp pot.

800-3.5 sage would be 533-2.33k demon paint heals. Considering the latent attack speed of a boss is less than once a second, that's still 700-3k heals per attack. For a huge portion of the player base 800-3.5 and 533-2.33k amount to the same thing, 100% health. Bragging about the size of you dph, and all sins dph, doesn't prove that sage paint is better. It proves that for the most point it's not needed.

This is a sage buff vs demon buff thread, so I won't even mention that even though a sage sin get 150% heal, a demon sin attacks 140%-151% as often (comparing 2.86 sage and 4 demon, or 3.33 sage and 5 aps demon) so a demon has the better paint potential when combined with aps. The best paint heals overall would be a demon sin with sage paint (151% aps + 150% heals) but you really never see a demon actively looking for sage paint unless they're low level or vastly undergeared.

C) That's the point Zanryu is trying to make. Sage bp is better, but endgame it really doesn't matter. Considering this is a game designed around tt90-Nirvana tier 1 our endgame of N2, r9, r9r, N3, and r9t3 are all sort of excessive for the needs of either sage of demon paint. So thank you for pointing out yourself that endgame bloodpaint matters little because of how defense scales. That's not even including cards, spirit, meridians, titles...

D) Here we go again with sage vs demon culti, not which paint is better... Arguing paint heals for aoe situations is really pointless.

I'm not even sure who has the better dph anymore since I haven't done dph calcs for skills in years. Demon used to, since 30% more weapon damage from earthen rift is only like a 6% boost in damage of the skill, and 30 attack level CotD vs 35 CotD in r9t3 with 170 attack levels is like 2.5% more. Sage mastery gives them another 1.3% ish, for a total of like 9% over demon while the WE boost of demon means 109% damage x 220% rage (sage) vs 100% x 240%, so demon has the better dph but throw sage subsea into the mix and sage gets it back again for 8 seconds.

Anyway... here is why comparing sage bp vs demon bp for aoes is ****. You used the number 3k heals for 1 mob (20% zerk rate). That means with 5 mobs you are getting 1.5k heals (non zerk) x 4 and 3k (zerk) x 1, so 9k heals against 5 mobs, demons would get 6k heals. But who zhens just 5 mobs? Most would just aps only 5 mobs. Typically for zhenning we're talking 20-30 or even more mobs in an aoe situation. So 30 mobs, you're now talking 45k heals per attack. Oh, you used Subsea first? 67.5k heals per aoe. Poor demon sin is only getting 30-39k heals every time he attacks. Wow, sage is better right? Except these sins only have 10-15k hp, and arent dead, so they need less than that amount, so the extra 30-60k heals we're arguing about don't even matter. Why argue which paint when every single aoe heals you 3-6 times your full hp bar.



So... you kind of made all Zanryu's points for him that once you're past G13 sage or demon doesn't really matter.

A sin has pretty much 3 scenarios he can be in. #1 his defenses are high enough that his paint heals greater than his losses. #2 His defense are low and his paint almost heals him enough that he could survive with apoths or better paint. #3 His defenses are so low his paint cannot keep up. Options number 1 and 3 are the most popular and there is a very small window for #2 because if you are being hit so hard that your paint cannot heal you, then you are also likely being 1-3 shot regardless of what paint you have. Its more about you hp/defenses and if you cannot survive a couple hits then very rarely will better paint heals make such a difference as to allow you to survive.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Atropah - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think you're making alot of points for Zanryu here.

A)Healing 400 hp unsparked would be healing 267 hp with demon. Not too much difference. A difference of 133 hp per attack is still going to take a while for an 8-15k hp sin to die and considering you're talking unsparked, so 2-2.86 aps, that's only 266-380 hp difference per second. We're talking a skill people base their culti choice around and yet it can be replaced by a single hp pot.

800-3.5 sage would be 533-2.33k demon paint heals. Considering the latent attack speed of a boss is less than once a second, that's still 700-3k heals per attack. For a huge portion of the player base 800-3.5 and 533-2.33k amount to the same thing, 100% health. Bragging about the size of you dph, and all sins dph, doesn't prove that sage paint is better. It proves that for the most point it's not needed.

This is a sage buff vs demon buff thread, so I won't even mention that even though a sage sin get 150% heal, a demon sin attacks 140%-151% as often (comparing 2.86 sage and 4 demon, or 3.33 sage and 5 aps demon) so a demon has the better paint potential when combined with aps. The best paint heals overall would be a demon sin with sage paint (151% aps + 150% heals) but you really never see a demon actively looking for sage paint unless they're low level or vastly undergeared.

C) That's the point Zanryu is trying to make. Sage bp is better, but endgame it really doesn't matter. Considering this is a game designed around tt90-Nirvana tier 1 our endgame of N2, r9, r9r, N3, and r9t3 are all sort of excessive for the needs of either sage of demon paint. So thank you for pointing out yourself that endgame bloodpaint matters little because of how defense scales. That's not even including cards, spirit, meridians, titles...

D) Here we go again with sage vs demon culti, not which paint is better... Arguing paint heals for aoe situations is really pointless.

I'm not even sure who has the better dph anymore since I haven't done dph calcs for skills in years. Demon used to, since 30% more weapon damage from earthen rift is only like a 6% boost in damage of the skill, and 30 attack level CotD vs 35 CotD in r9t3 with 170 attack levels is like 2.5% more. Sage mastery gives them another 1.3% ish, for a total of like 9% over demon while the WE boost of demon means 109% damage x 220% rage (sage) vs 100% x 240%, so demon has the better dph but throw sage subsea into the mix and sage gets it back again for 8 seconds.

Anyway... here is why comparing sage bp vs demon bp for aoes is ****. You used the number 3k heals for 1 mob (20% zerk rate). That means with 5 mobs you are getting 1.5k heals (non zerk) x 4 and 3k (zerk) x 1, so 9k heals against 5 mobs, demons would get 6k heals. But who zhens just 5 mobs? Most would just aps only 5 mobs. Typically for zhenning we're talking 20-30 or even more mobs in an aoe situation. So 30 mobs, you're now talking 45k heals per attack. Oh, you used Subsea first? 67.5k heals per aoe. Poor demon sin is only getting 30-39k heals every time he attacks. Wow, sage is better right? Except these sins only have 10-15k hp, and arent dead, so they need less than that amount, so the extra 30-60k heals we're arguing about don't even matter. Why argue which paint when every single aoe heals you 3-6 times your full hp bar.



So... you kind of made all Zanryu's points for him that once you're past G13 sage or demon doesn't really matter.

A sin has pretty much 3 scenarios he can be in. #1 his defenses are high enough that his paint heals greater than his losses. #2 His defense are low and his paint almost heals him enough that he could survive with apoths or better paint. #3 His defenses are so low his paint cannot keep up. Options number 1 and 3 are the most popular and there is a very small window for #2 because if you are being hit so hard that your paint cannot heal you, then you are also likely being 1-3 shot regardless of what paint you have. Its more about you hp/defenses and if you cannot survive a couple hits then very rarely will better paint heals make such a difference as to allow you to survive.

You proved my piont clearly. He said idiot's, not endgame. There is a very distinct difference. A sin with 15k hp in aps gear and a +12 wep is endgame. This was about the overall, not just endgame, and considering that pretty much all of the sins you will come in contact with ARE NOT endgame, is it really a valid piont to argue? This wasnt an arguement about culti, it was about BP, sage and demon sins can use each others BP. You are right that culti matters little past g13 stage, which is more in my favor, because you still seem to argue for demon aps from spark, which you would not do if culti matters so little. Tell me something i dont know about the demon spark, if culti didnt matter so much endgame, yet you still bring up this widely known and albeit trivial point.

As for my point on sage BP. Frenquency of heals matters. The lower your frenquency, the higher your heals need to be to recover. Why pop crabmeat if you dont have to? Thats wasting coin. Thats the difference, money.

Zanryu - Lothranis

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You proved my piont clearly. He said idiot's, not endgame. There is a very distinct difference. A sin with 15k hp in aps gear and a +12 wep is endgame. This was about the overall, not just endgame, and considering that pretty much all of the sins you will come in contact with ARE NOT endgame, is it really a valid piont to argue? This wasnt an arguement about culti, it was about BP, sage and demon sins can use each others BP. You are right that culti matters little past g13 stage, which is more in my favor, because you still seem to argue for demon aps from spark, which you would not do if culti matters so little. Tell me something i dont know about the demon spark, if culti didnt matter so much endgame, yet you still bring up this widely known and albeit trivial point.

As for my point on sage BP. Frenquency of heals matters. The lower your frenquency, the higher your heals need to be to recover. Why pop crabmeat if you dont have to? Thats wasting coin. Thats the difference, money.

Even using your gear setup as an example, 533-2.3k per hit at 3.33APS (1,774-7,768 HP/second) is more than sufficient for most bosses. Especially when you're in a group and have buffs.

The only downside of being at such a low APS while triple sparked is the sin would have to take a break between apsing to use a chi skill. This is where Sage does have to advantage, given that they can do this while they have -25% damage up.

Anyway. We know that at the gear setup given (well, we don't know HP, but I'm fairly certain healing 1.7-7.7k HP in a second is sufficient for the 7 or 8k HP the build likely has) let's see how things are affected when we up the APS?

Assuming each Assassin is granted a base APS of 3.33 the healing looks like this on bosses:

Sage: 3.33*800-3,500=2,664-11,655
Demon: 5*533-2333=2,665-11,665

...WHAT! OH MY GOD WHAT! The Demon sin actually slightly outheals on bosses?! And doesn't have to spend time using chi gaining moves so can attack even more?! WOWZERS!!!!!!!

A 5APS setup is not end game, it is obtainable to those with lower geared characters with a handful of high refines. This means, that while in a calculation involving someone with Dion's build (regarding aps only) the BP heals are in the favor of Sage, though the amount would be inconsequential to the boss fight as the amount healed by Demon would be more than sufficient to maintain a high amount of HP... but! When you upgrade the gear just a teeny bit, the sheer APS of Demon allows it to obtain roughly the same amount of raw healing, AND it doesn't need to stop to use chi skills.

Now that we've established that on Assassins the BP doesn't matter, let's do so on other classes.

Using a BM as an example, due to the fact that they take on both AoE and single target DPS situations, let's show that the cultivation just doesn't matter. This is non end game so we'll be using the earlier example of 20k hits. This heals the BM 400 HP per mob. This means the mobs would each have to do over 400 damage per second to break through the BP, and even if they can there's a Cleric or Mystic in the group providing heals. The 200 extra HP/second from Sage would be better, but not so much so that it matters. Give me a situation where the 200 actually matters.

Now.. for going up against bosses.

Let's just assume the BM's doing 6k per hit.

This will give him heals of 120 with Demon and 180 with Sage.

That's 600 HP/second with Demon and 900/second with Sage. I'm gonna be pretty honest with you, I actually PLAYED the class I'm talking about, and there's never been a single PvE boss situation where an extra 300 HP/second has made any kind of difference in the outcome of a fight.

kindly git rekd.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Even using your gear setup as an example, 533-2.3k per hit at 3.33APS I am 2.5 aps (1,774-7,768 HP/second) is more than sufficient for most bossesMost, not all, try doing 3-3 with my gear where bosses hit for 3.5k. It hurts, but i know how to play my sin in situations like that.. Especially when you're in a group and have buffsI always farm solo without a healer, so no. As for buffs, I am buffed 95% of the time with cleric, bm, and barb buffs.

The only downside of being at such a low APS while triple sparked is the sin would have to take a break between apsing to use a chi skillWrong again, I only use a chi skill when i want to use subsea/powerdash or in an emergency situation. This is where Sage does have to advantage, given that they can do this while they have -25% damage upWindsheild overrides sage spark, since my widsheild is lv1 (as for most sage pve genies) the damage reduction is only 6%.

Anyway. We know that at the gear setup given (well, we don't know HP, but I'm fairly certain healing 1.7-7.7k HP in a second is sufficient for the 7 or 8k HP the build likely has8.8k hp*) let's see how things are affected when we up the APS?

Assuming each Assassin is granted a base APS of 3.33 the healing looks like this on bosses:

Sage: 3.33*800-3,500=2,664-11,655
Demon: 5*533-2333=2,665-11,665

...WHAT! OH MY GOD WHAT! The Demon sin actually slightly outheals on bosses?!Because those two high end numbers arent exactly the same right? And doesn't have to spend time using chi gaining moves so can attack even more?! WOWZERS!!!!!!!

A 5APS setup is not end game, it is obtainable to those with lower geared characters with a handful of high refines. This means, that while in a calculation involving someone with Dion's build (regarding aps only) the BP heals are in the favor of Sage, though the amount would be inconsequential to the boss fight as the amount healed by Demon would be more than sufficient to maintain a high amount of HP... but! When you upgrade the gear just a teeny bit, the sheer APS of Demon allows it to obtain roughly the same amount of raw healing, AND it doesn't need to stop to use chi skills.Aps is capped at 5, the closer the sage gets to 5 aps, the more useless demon spark becomes. The demon would have to take out int peices to upgrade defense, which isnt needed in most cases. SO you basically say the healing power is exactly the same, so how is one better? My point exactly.

Now that we've established that on Assassins the BP doesn't matter, let's do so on other classes.

Using a BM as an example, due to the fact that they take on both AoE and single target DPS situations, let's show that the cultivation just doesn't matter. This is non end game so we'll be using the earlier example of 20k hits. This heals the BM 400 HP per mob. This means the mobs would each have to do over 400 damage per second to break through the BP, and even if they can there's a Cleric or Mystic in the group providing heals. The 200 extra HP/second from Sage would be better, but not so much so that it matters. Give me a situation where the 200 actually matters.

Now.. for going up against bosses.

Let's just assume the BM's doing 6k per hit.

This will give him heals of 120 with Demon and 180 with Sage.

That's 600 HP/second with Demon and 900/second with Sage. I'm gonna be pretty honest with you, I actually PLAYED the class I'm talking about, and there's never been a single PvE boss situation where an extra 300 HP/second has made any kind of difference in the outcome of a fight.

kindly git rekd.

b:chuckleSo cocky, it is quite sad. You still have yet to prove that it doesnt matter when toons aren't endgame, and when aps is lowered to a non-int dagger. I have already stated that the cultis are equal in healing, however sage adds more when you take more damage, it becomes less useful as your defenses go up, which you have kindly reiterated in a failed attempt to chew me out.b:chuckle

Zanryu - Lothranis

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

b:chuckleSo cocky, it is quite sad. You still have yet to prove that it doesnt matter when toons aren't endgame, and when aps is lowered to a non-int dagger. I have already stated that the cultis are equal in healing, however sage adds more when you take more damage, it becomes less useful as your defenses go up, which you have kindly reiterated in a failed attempt to chew me out.b:chuckle

In replies to your red:

I am 2.5 aps

Yes, and what does Demon triple spark do to 2.5 APS? It turns it into 3.33 APS.

Most, not all, try doing 3-3 with my gear where bosses hit for 3.5k. It hurts, but i know how to play my sin in situations like that

Well gee wiz mister, aren't you the bee's knees?

I always farm solo without a healer, so no. As for buffs, I am buffed 95% of the time with cleric, bm, and barb buffs.

Your original examples were Warsong and Lunar. Those are not solo instances, hence the mention of buffs.

Wrong again, I only use a chi skill when i want to use subsea/powerdash or in an emergency situation. Windsheild overrides sage spark, since my widsheild is lv1 (as for most sage pve genies) the damage reduction is only 6%.

I never did understand why people go sage and try to APS with Windshield, it negates the main bonus of Sage Spark. Whatever floats your pretty little Sage boats I guess, but I've always believed APSing should be left to the Demons who can utilize their genies for amps rather than needing them for APS Oh well.

Oh, and the only way you're using chi skills for emergency only is if you're using your genie for chi as well, or if you're spending time unsparked which hurts your DPS and BP heals so.. either way, you're kind of hurting your own farming potential.

In any case, this is good. This means we don't have to factor in your Spark, only the BP heals.

Your best base scenario is having 3,500-11,655 healing per second, which is 3.33 APS. A Demon in the same gear has, as we've already established, 1,774-7,768 HP/second. It's only a little over half of what you receive, however they're able to use their genie to boost their damage or on defensive skills to aid with surviving, rather than needing to expend it on aps alone. You say you take 3.5k hits, on average the Demon Sin will be able to outheal that as well given the interval at which bosses attack. Assuming equal skill, the sin with Demon BP does not require Sage BP to survive the same scenario.

Even if the boss manages to out damage the BP heals of the Demon, the triple spark will regain the HP difference, still making the Sage BP unnecessary.

8.8k HP

Thanks. Either way, you have yet to prove that Sage BP makes any significant difference in practice. Yes, it sounds nice in theory, being 50% stronger than Demon, but prove to me that it's enough to allow someone to do something they otherwise couldn't with Demon. Show me that it's significantly better.

Because those two high end numbers arent exactly the same right?

Oh? A small difference means the numbers are basically the same? What an interesting viewpoint coming from you.

Aps is capped at 5, the closer the sage gets to 5 aps, the more useless demon spark becomes. The demon would have to take out int peices to upgrade defense, which isnt needed in most cases. SO you basically say the healing power is exactly the same, so how is one better? My point exactly.

It's true that as APS increases, the less useful Demon Spark becomes, however Sage can never truly match the Demon's APS potential until they reach 4.0 base. This requires monumental amounts of money, and is irrelevant for our discussion due to the fact that we're discussing non-end game. At least I thought we were... since you brought up non-end game and made it a point to exclude end-game gear. My mistake I guess. Though, for since we're on the subject, even at 4.0 Base the Sage will still come up in short in terms of DPS due to being unable to maintain 5APS without genie spam, meaning the Demon can use their genie for amps and debuffs while the Sage can't.

Back on subject, the higher the APS the more Sage outheals Demon, however it also has less impact as well. It's like a catch 22. "You can heal more, but it's completely unneeded and will have no impact".

I'm tired of math. You do it. You've yet to give any kind of example to back up your claims while I've given quite a few.

So cocky, it is quite sad. You still have yet to prove that it doesnt matter when toons aren't endgame, and when aps is lowered to a non-int dagger. I have already stated that the cultis are equal in healing, however sage adds more when you take more damage, it becomes less useful as your defenses go up, which you have kindly reiterated in a failed attempt to chew me out

If that's how you interpret it, you're free to. Though I'm not intentionally being cocky.

We aren't discussing a non-int dagger, we're discussing your current gear setup because you listed yourself as an example earlier on. I showed you the difference in Sage and Demon BP on someone of exactly equal gear to you, and the result was that it just really doesn't matter which you go with. Sage is better, but it's not so much better that it actually matters.

The only fail thing here is your argument. You seem to be unable to support your claim very well, all you do is try to say my argument supports yours and that Sage BP is better. You give no reason other than "DURR 50% MAOR HEALZ SO GUD PLZ SAGE > DEMON" Really. That's what your posts amount to.

lrn2argueplz

Atropah - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

He said idiot's, not endgame. There is a very distinct difference. A sin with 15k hp in aps gear and a +12 wep is endgame. This was about the overall, not just endgame, and considering that pretty much all of the sins you will come in contact with ARE NOT endgame, is it really a valid piont to argue?

Just gonna answer this with my own comment earlier:

Atropah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Considering this is a game designed around tt90-Nirvana tier 1 our endgame of N2, r9, r9r, N3, and r9t3 are all sort of excessive for the needs of either sage of demon paint.

My point is that endgame used to be 10k sins with G13/G15. Now endgame is much higher but the game content hasn't changed. What people used to solo 3-3 and Lunars with may not be endgame anymore but even our poor-mediocre geared players have more stats, defense, and damage output than what we used to consider endgame.

So yes, I used the term 'endgame' losely to mean pretty much any sin who has hit level 100, has over 8k, and better than a G13 weapon. That combined with a few titles, meridians, avatars, or rebirth is better than endgame 2 years ago when everything in game was still soloable without all those extra bonuses.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

A 5APS setup is not end game

If you care about pvp, I suppose its not, but I'd argue even the ideal endgame pvp setup would be full r9t3 dph with aps on swap.
For a huge portion of our player base dps and pve matter more. If I had unlimited resources my ideal setup would be r9t3 daggers with -int r8r for 5 aps. 5 aps would be my endgame as it offers the highest dps. Endgame is subjective.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This wasnt an arguement about culti, it was about BP, sage and demon sins can use each others BP. You are right that culti matters little past g13 stage, which is more in my favor, because you still seem to argue for demon aps from spark, which you would not do if culti matters so little. Tell me something i dont know about the demon spark, if culti didnt matter so much endgame, yet you still bring up this widely known and albeit trivial point.

Only brought it up because you and Zanryu kept bringing it up. I think it was in response to you bringing up windshield for aps and sage spark for damage reduction, and comparing taking less damage with the need for less heals. Demon's on the other hand take more damage but compensate by greater output.

For this arguments sake both Zanryu and I have been stating almost everyone's damage output and defenses after 5 years of this game are high enough that 99% of the time 2% bp heals you fully. If it isn't healing you fully and you die, then you probably also took more damage than what 3% could have healed (probably by 1 or 2 large hits in between your paint heals, or 30 small hits all at once while zhenning).

I guess you make the argument that low aps characters have low dps and therefore need sage paint for chunkier heals.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Aps is capped at 5, the closer the sage gets to 5 aps, the more useless demon spark becomes. The demon would have to take out int peices to upgrade defense, which isnt needed in most cases. SO you basically say the healing power is exactly the same, so how is one better? My point exactly.

Sage sacrifice defense for aps and compensate with the damage reduction of their spark. Demon's sacrifice aps gear to increase their defenses as they naturally have aps from their spark. As aps increase for both sage and demon the demon spark doesn't become less useful because they'd just swap out pieces of gear to gain greater defenses since they have their spark to still give them the aps edge... I know you'll try to bring this back around to me trying to make this a 'sage v demon' argument, I'm just correcting the statement you made.


Anyway... final statement here is bloodpaint culti doesn't matter one bit (as long as you're a cleric, veno, psychic, mystic, or wizard).