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DW - Hypothetical cross server TW

DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
edited March 2015 in Tideswell (East)
Copied this from the Harshlands sub section, sounds fun.
Assuming 80v80, who would you put in for a server vs. server TW? What kind of squad setups would you use? What sort of strategy? Etc. Also keep in mind, can be people from any guild. Think of the server as a whole, not just one guild.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=21278181#post21278181

Let's keep it drama/troll/flame/politics/epeen free.
Post edited by DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver on
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  • SonH - DreamweaverSonH - Dreamweaver Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Copied this from the Harshlands sub section, sounds fun.



    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=21278181#post21278181

    Let's keep it drama/troll/flame/politics/epeen free.

    Hard question to answer to be honest. There are a lot of of people out there to name for a full 80, especially when people from different factions might not have the synergy needed to succeed. Would you like to, maybe, change the question to top squad in their respective roles? Example: top cata squad, top offensive squad, top defensive squad, etc...
  • DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I agree it's a tough question that requires a lot of serious thought and debate. Which is why it sounds fun. Those that have no interest in contributing serious answers should ignore this thread.

    The thread I linked most answers do come down to;

    Cata 1 - 9/10 people
    Cata 2 - 9/10 people
    Attack 1 - 9/10 people
    Attack 2 - 9/10 people
    Attack 3 - 9/10 people
    Def 1 - 9/10 people
    Def 2 - 9/10 people
    Def 3 - 9/10 people
    Scouts

    etc

    Which seems like a good format. Assuming synergy was something that could be developed over the cross server TW season and assuming everyone gets along like happy families.

    I think in the not so distant past this would've been any r9rr, but I think r9rr is so common now that you can start to look past just gears. One classic example that I always use is Aelicia who would be the top BM in any attack squad even though they don't have r9rr.
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  • Nigelus - DreamweaverNigelus - Dreamweaver Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    b:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckle
  • DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    b:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckle

    Hi nige, I know you think this kinda stuff should be a 'secret' so no problem you can just watch, no need to share your secrets with us. :D
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  • Zsw - DreamweaverZsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    It's interesting how simple most faction's TW format is, when compared to Regenesis/Calamity in their former glory.
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  • DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    It's interesting how simple most faction's TW format is, when compared to Regenesis/Calamity in their former glory.

    I'm sure you're right.

    Stagnation, dark ages, lack of a neccessary ingenuity come to mind. When gear numbers and B lane pushes are all thats required there's little need to do anything else.

    Another byproduct of what they call the power creep I guess.
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  • SakuLv - DreamweaverSakuLv - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,400 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Well since you started this thread in DW section
    Why don't you post your squad set up first f:hehe

    Would be pretty interesting to read
  • Dragslave - DreamweaverDragslave - Dreamweaver Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    It's interesting how simple most faction's TW format is, when compared to Regenesis/Calamity in their former glory.

    Back in those days, squads were of 6 ppl max, so that allowed different squad setups than 8-10 ppl squads, also less classes meant that u had enough clerics/bm/barb for each squad usually...


    About the post, really interesting idea... but i wont post a setup cause:
    1. takes long to do and i dont want to >.>
    2. using people idk from other factions would suck, idk how they play, or if they could addapt to the playstyle i would imagine
    3. too many choices for some spots... and too many squads setup come to mind.... i think i could never do a setup and be happy with it.

    I do hope some people take the time and do it, would be interesting to see how others see everyone as better suited...
  • Zsw - DreamweaverZsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Back in those days, squads were of 6 ppl max, so that allowed different squad setups than 8-10 ppl squads, also less classes meant that u had enough clerics/bm/barb for each squad usually...

    I agree that back in the days, squads were 6 people. However, I want to remind the people that no one is forcing you to put 10 people in a squad. 10 people is an option yes, but may or may not be best option. Depends entirely on what you want to accomplish.

    Also, EP/WR/WBs are dying out? That surprises me actually, as I was under the impression that the NH update made WR and WBs insanely OP.


    Ah how times have changed.
    I'm sure you're right.

    Stagnation, dark ages, lack of a neccessary ingenuity come to mind. When gear numbers and B lane pushes are all thats required there's little need to do anything else.

    Another byproduct of what they call the power creep I guess.


    Really? Is PWI really the 1 shot fest that I imagine then? That's a pity.
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  • Aeliah - DreamweaverAeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Zsw, provide a situation where it would be better to have a smaller squad rather than a squad of 10A?
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  • Aeliah - DreamweaverAeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Hmm... there is no perfect TW plan, because every plan depends on your enemy.

    Arcanes kill the heavy armors, and sometimes light armors.
    Light armor kill the arcanes and other light armors.
    Heavy armors kill arcanes (but slower), and tank damage.

    1) If your enemy has an abundance of arcane armors, you can counter it in two ways: either you go arcane heavy too (both sides have difficulty killing each other fast), or you go light armor heavy (both sides kill each other fast). Typically, you are required to have light armors, because if the enemy arcanes survive too long, your own heavy armors will die.

    2) If your enemy has an abundance of light armors, you can counter via loading up on heavies (light armors have difficulty with heavy armors), or by loading up on light armors (light armors kill other light armors quite well) or loading up on arcanes (arcanes kill light armors pretty well too). Therefore, light armors have the least amount of 'forcing' on how the enemy adapts their strategy.

    3) However, if your enemy has a lot of heavy armors, you are forced to load up on arcane armors to kill the heavies. Light armors can do it, but not as efficiently. Heavy armors can't kill other heavy armors.

    It is a combination of these influences that tend to create factions that have similar class makeups. Eventually as you fight a faction over and over, you can get a sense of how to balance out how many arcanes you bring to take down the enemy heavies; how many heavies you need to tank the enemy light and heavy dd, and how many light dds you need to kill the arcane and light dds.

    Lets assume 8 squads.

    Healer classes-clerics and mystics;

    Minimum 1 cleric and 1 mystic per squad, except in cata squads, where there should be two clerics minimum. If we assume 2 cata squads, we should assume minimum of 10 clerics and 8 mystics in the tw. 10/80 = 12.5% clerics, and 8/80 = 10% mystics. However, ideally, I'd like to see 2 clerics and 1 mystic in every squad. 2 clerics cross-rezzing each other is very hard to counter. Additionally, clerics, if there is no need for healing, are capable of excellent single-target control (sleep or seal of gods on an enemy will take that enemy out of combat for a very long time) and of excellent dmg and debuffs in violet dance mode, and mystics as well have good aoe support debuffs (aoe sleeps, phy/mag defense debuffs, aoe seals, and single target stuns even) as well as good dmg. This allows the healers to do more than just healing if they number the enemy at a given time, making them incredibly useful in any TW battles. Therefore, this would increase our count to 16 clerics and 8 mystics in the tw. 16/80 = 20% clerics, 8/80 = 10% mystics. Therefore, 30% of the people in the TW would be healers if I had my way.

    Tanker class-barbs

    Barbs are an absolute must for cata pulling and rebuffing (the 35% extra hp is ESSENTIAL in tw). For everybody in the TW to have barb buffs, 8 barbs are required, minimum. However, in most cases, we don't want to have 4 different cata squads, with 1 barb in each squad. Why? Because a cata squad can't move as fast as an attack or defense squad, because catas cannot switch lanes easily. If we had 4 squads dedicated to pulling 1 cata squad each, 4 of the squads in your fight would have very limited mobility, since they are required to stick around to protect the cata. Mobile squads are very important, since it allows you to respond the enemy faster and make your own pushes into enemy base happen more quickly. Therefore, most factions tend to have 2 cata squads, with 2 barbs in each of them. To maintain this and to also have everybody barb buffed, I would like to see a mimimum of 10 barbs. 10/80 = 12.5% barbs

    Who kills the enemy barbs, which, if not killed, will cause you to lose the TW?

    Purgers class- venos and sometimes archers, *sometimes* bms and barbs (rarely)
    Whereas arcanes can often be killed with raw damage from light armors, heavy armors often require many debuffs and/or purge to kill. Therefore, every faction needs a certain number of venos (whose focus in TW is almost entirely supportive debuffing of the enemy) and archers (who provide supportive, random purges, and raw dps). However, an archer's purge is often not reliable enough to count on when killing barbs. Additionally, archers are so good at killing arcanes that its not a good use of their time to be trying to purge a barb when there are arcanes left to kill. Therefore, venos are a required class. How many is ideal? 'More is better', but at minimum, we'd expect to normally encounter 4 barbs pulling catapults, who are often the only people who *absolutely must* be purged at any cost. Purge has roughly 30s cooldown, so a veno can't usually purge more than 1 person at a time. Therefore at minimum, I'd say that it is required to have at least 4 venos, so that every cata barb can get purged if the enemy pushes into your base. 4/80 = 5% venos. However, more venos can be particularly useful if your enemy is heavy on melees, like assassins, bms, barbs, and seekers, because venos can bramble their allies to reflect damage. As well, the debuffs of a veno exponentially increase chance of a target dying, and many of a veno's debuffs are aoe (their 79 debuffs and their aoe seal for example). When compared with the usefulness of seekers and assassins, I would be willing to see some assassins traded for more venos, possibly up to 1 veno per squad, for a total of 8 venosl, ideally.

    So far, we have 10 clerics, 8 mystics, 10 barbs, and 4 venos minimum. This is 32 people out of 80, or 40/80 = 50% of 'required' classes. So who else should we bring to tw?

    Raw magic dd - wizards, psychics
    Purging a heavy armor + ordinary dmg is still usually not enough to kill really well geared heavy armors like cata barbs, bms, and seekers. Therefore, a certain number of wizards (especially good at nuking heavy armors for charm-bypasses) and psychics (excellent at providing the raw dmg to dps heavy armors well, work well with wizards) are necessary. Exactly how many you need is dependent on how many heavy armors the enemy brings to the table. An arcane is good for cancelling out a heavy armor, so the more heavy armors the enemy has, the more arcanes you should have. There should be several raw magic dds per squad, with concentrations of them in defense squads, whose main job is usually killing enemy catapults. For example, we might expect a minimum of 2 raw magic dds per squad, except in cata squads, where you might see 1 or none. Therefore, minimum of 6 squads * 2 ppl = 12 raw magic dds. 12/80 = 15%

    Raw physical dps - archers
    The classic 'tw class'. Nobody can dish out as much dps on average as an archer, and they are critical for taking out enemy arcanes, with a special focus on the enemy healers. While they are not a 'required' class, nobody else can do their job quite as well as they can. If we imagine that a light armor counters an arcane armor, we could potentially see up 12+18 = 30 archers in tw. However, while this would provide a lot of raw dps and purges, archers don't handle melees very well. Archers have half dmg in melee range, and they lack the ability to control more than 1 target at a time. They also have no particularly useful squad buff---evasion is really only a good buff for light armors who are fighting other physical dds. Therefore, too many archers isn't a good thing either. Realistically we might expect 1 per cata squad, and 2 per the other squads, for a total of 6*2 + 2 = 14 archers. Defense squads would benefit from more because archers can take out the healers in enemy cata squads well, and attack squads benefit because they can take out the other enemy arcanes quite well too. 14/80 = 17.5%

    Now we have allocated 58 out of 80 people, which leaves us with 22 more, and 3 classes to go.

    Offensive/defensive support-blademaster
    Nobody else can defend like a blademaster can. A blademaster is the one class capable of routinely shutting down groups of enemies all by himself, and of getting them killed through the use of debuffs like heavens flame or glacial spike. A blademaster in an attack squad is at the front lines crashing into enemies and unleashing aoe stuns, so that his squad can assist attack him to take down groups of enemies at a time. A blademaster in a defense squad can lock up the enemy cata barbs, preventing them from progressing down the lane, or lock up the enemy healers, preventing them from healing the cata barbs, while the bm's magic dds kill the barbs. A blademaster in a cata squad can be a shield to the arcane-heavy squad of healers, and provide a tanky target that healers can spam heals at, while the bm keeps the enemy occupied with aoe stuns, seals, and weapon disables. Bms also have a useful squad buff--physical defense, which is squad only, therefore, at minimum, there should be at least 1 bm per squad, for a minimum of 8 bms total, 8/80 = 10% bms.

    We have 16 spots left, and 2 classes to go.

    Jack of all trades-seeker
    A seeker is kinda a jack of all trades. They tank well, but not quite as well as a bm or seeker. They dps ok, but not as good as archers. They do some magic and some physical dmg. They can do spike physical damage as well, but their strongest debuffs are single target, and a seeker cannot purge. But herein lies the beauty of a seeker. A seeker can do many things well, even if they aren't the best at any one thing. A seeker, along with blademaster, is a good 'front lines' person, who also happens to dish out good dmg. If your faction has extra barbs, a barb can run into a group of enemies and try to be a nuisance, but they are hampered by their inability to escape immobilizes easily, and by the necessity of being in melee range to do nearly all of their attacks. In comparison, a seeker can attack at melee range, 20 meter range, or even 25 meter ranges, depending on the skills they use. A seeker is also good, along with a blademaster, at setting up 'vortex', which is easily the strongest constant aoe skill in the game, and will tear arcanes and light armors to shreds unless the seeker is actively cced. Even if vortex is on cooldown, seekers have many other aoes to fall back on, also like blademasters (they have more raw damage than blademasters, but lack aoe control skills). Their squad buff is also kinda useful---more useful for defending against magic dmg than a blademaster's buff, but not as good at defending against physical dmg. A seeker can beef up any squad they enter by, along with the blademaster, providing a shield against incoming damage, and helping distract the enemy from the squishier arcanes in the back. As such I'd recommend 1 seeker per squad, for 8/80 = 10% seekers.

    And finally?

    The stealth class-assassins
    Often underestimated, the assassin class has many roles they can potentially play in TW. For a long time, people didn't want assassins for TW, but for the wrong reasons---many assassins were undergeared, because they use dps gear for farming. A well geared assassin can:
    -take out binding posts very quickly before the enemy can react
    -kill healers that other classes, even archers, can't reach, via stealth and double spark combos (all good healers stay behind their dds to stay out of enemy attack range)
    -lock up ONE target very well. An assassin, once their gear can tank some hits, is very hard to control, and an assassin can execute a mean stun lock. That means that an assassin can cc a barb, cleric, or other key dd---and its hard to stop them from doing it, because debuffs will glance off of them left and right, and just when they are about to die, deaden nerves ticks, and the assassin vanishes. Key targets might include a healer (if the healer cannot heal, the barb dies), a barb (if the barb cannot move, you have more time to take down the enemy cata squad) or other targets who are harder than normal to kill.
    -protections; using the same lock techniques as the above point, an assassin is great at protecting his squad from a key dd; if a bm is chasing your cleric, the assassin can easily lock up the bm; if an wizard is trying to kill your barb, the assassin can lock up the wizard, etc
    -scout: yes, every class could be a scout, but the assassin is the only class who can scout and still stay alive; this can be useful because the enemy will think that, for example, you don't know about the catas approaching on C lane, but in actual fact you will. This will cause confusion for the enemy when you show up again and again to crush their offensive pushes.
    For these reasons, *good* assassins can have some use in TW. However, this has to be balanced against the good stuff other classes can do as well---in particular, when comparing a veno to an assassin, a veno is a bit more useful. Assassins have no squad buff useful to their squad (though aoe stealth is useful, its very short-lived, hardly a 'buff'). So I'd say, while 8 assassins would be good, if you have extra venos, take them instead of assassins, up to a total of around 8 venos, leaving us with 4 assassin. 4/80 = 5% assassins

    SUMMARY:
    - 16 clerics
    - 8 mystics
    - 10 barbs
    - 8 venos
    - 12 wiz/psychic
    - 14 archers
    - 8 blademasters
    - 8 seekers
    - 4 assassins


    So there you have it---my take on which classes and how many of em you should have for an ideal, balanced TW force.

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  • Aeliah - DreamweaverAeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    As far as who I take, there are couple things to consider:

    -gear
    -experience
    -willingness to follow directions

    Gear:
    -no matter how skilled you are, if you get one shot, you can't help anybody very much. Your gear needs to be good enough so that you have the ability to react to incoming damage fast enough to save yourself. If you are a dd, you have to dish out enough dmg so that the enemy can't just ignore you.

    Experience:
    -your gear will not save you if you don't play properly. Just because you can tank 5 people does not mean you can tank 10 or 15. Conversely, if you are too afraid of ever dying, you may kite excessively often, which will mean that you are being under-utilized---you are ensuring that all the enemy damage goes onto your squad mates, which causes them to die more often than they should, and furthermore, if you are a dd who kites too much, you won't end up damaging the enemy as often. As well, no gear can replace the ability to instantly gauge the danger of a situation just by observing how the enemy is distributed, and which spells they are using. For example, when you see a bm running towards you, you run. When you see an archer triple spark in the difference, you run, or you cc the archer. When you hit a psychic and find yourself stunned, you'll know that the stun is a very long one, which means you should try to genie out of it if possible. Etc.

    Willingness to follow orders:
    -no matter how tanky you are, how much damage you deal, or how good your technical playing is, if you do not work with your squad, your usefulness is severely reduced. If you do not stick with your squad, you will be unable to receive heals or rezzes as easily. If you decide to push when the orders are to fall back, you will get killed when you shouldn't have had to, which will also diminish your usefulness. If you were ordered to go down the right lane but you go down the middle lane instead, your TW leader will think he has people on the right lane but won't, which will cause confusion and could even cause you to lose. Willingness to follow orders is key in TW. TW is not run by group concensus, but by quickly following the orders of somebody overseeing the strategy. This allows the majority of the players to focus on specific duties and execute them quickly and effectively, as opposed to getting distracted by the bigger picture strategy when they should be focusing on the enemy in front of them. (For this reason, nobody takes it too seriously when our TW leader dies, because we know he's busy overseeing the TW, and not paying too much attention to how well he kills the enemy).



    All three of these are very important for choosing somebody for TW, and their relative importance is in the order I've listed them. A person with a lot of experience and willingness to follow orders still won't be able to do much good if he's a one shot. A person with good gear and willingness to follow orders but no experience will often die when they shouldn't because they don't recognize danger very well. A person with good gear and experience but who doesn't follow orders well isn't good, but still better than not having experience playing their character.

    The common scenario here is the classic 'pvper' who enters TW, and thinks that TW is about pvping. TW, like NW battles, is won by executing specific goals that are AIDED by pvp, but pvp is NOT the point of the TW battle. A TW battle is only won (except for a 3 hour defense) by killing the enemy crystal with catapults pulled by barbs. The entire purpose of the TW is to safely escort those catas into the enemy base and keep them alive as long as possible.

    Therefore, in extreme cases, we see where a person with ok gear, great experience, and great ability to follow orders, can be more useful than somebody with excellent gear, but no experience and no willingness to follow orders. However, when choosing the people from an entire server, there are generally enough experienced people people around that we first choose the experienced people who also have the best gear. Then, if we have the luxury of having more than 80 geared, experienced people, we pick the ones that follow orders best/work together well.
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  • Aeliah - DreamweaverAeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I propose to make this easier, somebody from each major TW faction posts the players from his/her own faction that they think would have the gear and experience and willingness to follow orders that are required for a high-level, cross-server TW.

    So, then say we get 20 candidates for clerics, and we have 16 spots-then we can do some real debate about relative gear/experience of various candidates and have our final pick of 16.

    For example, from Dynasty:

    Archers: - 10 candidates, 14 asked for
    - iScarlet
    - ATouchOfEvil
    - ExMP
    - Kenji_
    - Ojimaru
    - Raiyan
    - xRedHoodx
    - _Maximo_
    - TripsOdom
    - RottenKitten

    Clerics: - 7 candidates, 16 asked for
    - Aeliah
    - SonH
    - Valentessa
    - Lechi
    - Divine_Blade
    - FistToDeath
    - Anarion

    Venomancers: - 5 candidates, 8 asked for
    - WackyTaffy
    - Shuraka
    - Raequel
    - Merteuil
    - Anonome

    Barbarians: - 6 candidates, 10 asked for
    - BigCojones
    - Kicksumbutt
    - odinsghost
    - slaughter
    - DangerousDan
    - MelonHeads

    Blademasters: - 4 candidates, 8 asked for
    - EX_tacy
    - Aelicia
    - RockStar_
    - Jckstn

    Wizards: - 6 candidates, 12 heavy magic dds asked for
    - Dragslave
    - Drakira
    - Smilsha
    - sarisama
    - Antics
    - Belther

    Psychics: - 5 candidates, 12 heavy magic dds asked for
    - MezK
    - SkyIIa
    - SpectreBR
    - AznBloodV
    - ApocaIypto

    Assassins: - 5 candidates, 4 asked for
    - ehop
    - Sword_Tammer
    - NoobzKiller
    - bigknockers
    - DionDagger

    Mystics: - 6 candidates, 8 asked for
    - Xaner
    - Tato_
    - Asthariel
    - _Tara
    - \Influence/
    - Countessia

    Seekers: - 6 candidates, 8 asked for
    - ShaShen
    - Nit
    - Iceblade
    - K_Chonk
    - Bob_Boberts
    - /Arnith\

    As you'll notice, this isn't quite enough to fill all 80 spots even if we did choose them all, and I expect that there are others in other factions that could be found more suitable for the cross-server dream team. So, please post away, and if you would be so kind, be as thorough as I was just now.

    Cheers!
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  • Nigelus - DreamweaverNigelus - Dreamweaver Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    tys Aeliah for enlight us...at least u didnt post any actual tw strategy and how dyna set squads :P

    i dont know if u do it to help them improve so they can do better tws, or u just cant wiht ur temperament.


    And to answer about what u asked to Z, where should be good to have 6 ppl squad:

    2 clerics,1bm and 3 sins. Clerics can stay in base as base buffers for the entire faction. sins+bm recon missions+ suport killers, aka fight behind enemy lines.

    want another squad setup? no problem my friend

    the most famous calamity squad, or at least one of it: Stun squad.

    2 or 3 bms, cleric,veno,barb or seeker can work.

    Snowballing the lanes, bms timing roars, veno droping nova b4 bms go in.

    U really want another squad???

    scouts+buffer squad. 1 cleric in base wiht veno to bramble +4 any class. Lane A,B,C + enemy crystal scout.




    Btw, as Aeliah is saying all that in a public forum i guess i can say gz to relic squad blocking dynasty outside our B gate(or distract).
    what dyna ppl saw it as pkers trying to pk it was actually a block so their cata squads could get the 2 towers behind them. I dont know why ppl kept figthing Heartz `s squad when they didnt have any catapult, or at least why kill them? just stun, freeze, keep them there dont give them a free ticket to their base where our catapults were trying to destroy their towers.
    Although i have to say, there was lack of coordination in that squad, not a proper perimeter, lack of discipline among the lines to not get into tower range and perhaps that squad should had worked better if they just hit and run, to get attention (as they did anyways) of others dyna squads.
    Of course wiht dyna wining the war, that strategy didnt work perhaps if relic get more ppl it might work and then do a royal push securing the binding posts. Anyways it is easy to counter as i said by just ignoring ppl without catas and actually go defend the towers that were being hit by 2 catapults.b:byeb:byeb:bye
  • Aeliah - DreamweaverAeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Lol I was speaking in the most general terms, nigelus. I'm afraid you are the first to discuss actual TW events for this topic ;o though you know I'm not particularly fussy about whether the enemy knows our strategy, because if it makes them better, I say bring it on. While you may find fun in just winning, I personally (and many others as well) find plenty more fun in a fight where both sides are the best they can possibly be. Its the difference between winning against a no-name faction, and winning a 2.5 hour battle against the strongest opponent the server has to offer.

    And yes, a 6 person squad could include base buffer and scouts, or rolling stun waves, or any number of other things. But can you please explain to me again, what can the small squad do that the big squad can't do? I can see a subset of a larger squad doing all of that just as well, but with the added advantage of having more buffs for more people, and having more backup heal support possible (eg 2 clerics per squad instead of 1) or even more extreme if you really have that many spare bms, 4 or even 5 bms per squad. The old 'squads of 6' was back when we only had 6 classes to worry about. If we go with squads of 6 nowadays, many people will be without the critically important bm and barb buffs, or even worse---no cleric buffs.

    If you have many squads of 6 (as opposed to 8 squads of 10) communication gets much more difficult, as you have incoming information from many more people to listen to.

    Even the argument of mobility seems to fall flat---there's really no reason why 10 decently geared people shouldn't be able to move as fast across the field as 6.

    One valid argument might be - the enemy thinks he knows your squad formation, so if he sees a few members of your squad, he'll assume the rest of the squad is there, but it actually won't be. Again, though, with proper coordination made easier by having fewer squads, part of a squad can be in one place while the rest is somewhere else, if confusing the enemy is your goal. No need to give up on buffs for all just to confuse the enemy temporarily.

    Don't mix up nostalgia with reality. Its no wonder that the 10-man squad was immediately embraced for TW by faction leaders, when it clearly offers so many advantages.
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  • Nigelus - DreamweaverNigelus - Dreamweaver Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Not mobility, is couse u dont need 10 ppl to do what 4 can do. Would u have 7 sins hunting priority targets when 2 or 3 can do the job? u are taking spots into the tw u might need for other squads, like catapult squads, offensive squads or defensive squads. Not going deeply there.

    So basically u are not puting 10 ppl do the job that 6 can do so the others 4 go to more important squads. But there u have to start giving preiorities to other squads.

    When a squad is working properly they dont speak and they know what they have to do. I always though that the less u talk wiht ur squad members the best u are doing it. Couse that means they know what they have to do, they know how u do it and most important they know what they are doing and why.

    Many squads of 6? no, no reason to have more than 3 squads of 6. but are making me talk!!!grrrrb:shutupb:shutupb:shutup and it is very situational + it depends against who u are doing tw and how many tws u have that night+how many catapults ur enemy have+how many u have and so on.

    Anyways i am sooo tired, i finally got r9rr armors!!woot!!not axes yet, but at least i got armors :P we need to do a 1 vs 1 to test my tankiness :P


    PS: u dont read my pms in forums!!i will tell req to spank u harder.

    PS2; i like wining tws, if i lose i try to do better for next. if i roll them is couse i worked harder, no bad in wining in 2 mins. The fastest u can win tws, the more lands u can defend, and u must be ready to defend all ur lands in one weekend, otherwhise u cant be #1 faction.
  • Temptatio/V - DreamweaverTemptatio/V - Dreamweaver Posts: 301 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Psychics: - 5 candidates, 12 heavy magic dds asked for
    - MezK
    - SkyIIa
    - SpectreBR
    - AznBloodV
    - ApocaIypto

    Wth Aeliah!?!?!

    Were are me and Sun QQ

    I wana be in svs war to:(

    Wait... how much we going to be payed for that? b:laugh
  • Slivaf - DreamweaverSlivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Wth Aeliah!?!?!

    Were are me and Sun QQ

    I wana be in svs war to:(

    Wait... how much we going to be payed for that? b:laugh

    Aeliah did say it wasnt a full 80, so I am sure he thinks highly of a few people he didn't mention, that he feels are more than capable of handling themselves well in the proposed situation.

    Heck I am guessing there might even be a few that he put on there that he feels the team could do without, though obviously I could be wrong about that tidbit.

    I didn't even know a few of those people still even played, but I do recognize most of them.

    ---

    I am not even going to attempt to make a list, nor am I going to share my opinion about some of the names put on any of the list(s).

    Asthariel making the list of mystics (hypothetical list) FTW! Ok **** I shared an opinion. :$ Oops oh well. I am just glad that she is back. ^^
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Nigelus - DreamweaverNigelus - Dreamweaver Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    MY dream team for a tw: trying to do wiht all active ppl and ofc some ppl must do what i tell them lol couse they have the potential to do what i can imagine but they dont, sometimes.

    Catapult squad:
    XXbambamXX or something like that, dont recall his nickname. he can go there if he is sage
    Bigc
    Gwendolyn
    Aikana
    Skylla
    Breezy couse he likes to vortex
    Algiz or Dulcesito
    Rydia
    Pepoash
    Vonheltr

    Catapult 2
    Kingrock
    Melonheals
    Fistodeath
    Tamrood
    Cecil
    Cheeries
    Vaud or Vali
    Anonome
    Sympsy...she isnt that active QQ
    Naturion

    Catapult 3
    Torados
    Adibelle
    Dragonsomething bm r9rr from relic
    Tripsodom
    The_cure
    Andres
    Temptation or Seduction, idk wich one is sage
    Philco
    Nit



    Defensive 1
    Fiyah
    Aeliah
    Aelicia
    Wangzi
    Joosefus
    Dragslave
    Antics
    Sarisamma
    Superlambo
    Anjumara
    Fenirwolf

    Defensive 2
    Thicket
    Razsgal
    Deathproof
    thesun
    Jans
    Lostpoet
    Naberis
    Yugol
    Slewdem
    Racquel

    Defensive 3
    Kenji
    Lordbosk
    Webgoddes
    War
    Iken
    Cass_kitty
    Angel_Age even if he will QQ all the time :P jk jk jk XD <3
    kjinka
    Lordromeo
    Fallonwiz


    Flank 1
    Heartz
    Rottenkitten
    Darksieek
    Iceblade
    Re_animator
    PG_junior if he can DD and support heal at the same time
    Legendtells
    Wackytaffy
    Superhebbe
    Truwarz


    Flank 2
    Ojimaru
    Tahimara
    Aekhito
    e-hope
    Extacy, the bm :P
    Smash
    Eziquil
    kicksumbutts
    locowoko
    Sonh



    Scout: Kalopsia


    i am sure i missed many many many many ppl, and there are ppl there i dont like. How they play or just how they are. But i see the potential in their toons XD
  • Temptatio/V - DreamweaverTemptatio/V - Dreamweaver Posts: 301 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Aeliah did say it wasnt a full 80, so I am sure he thinks highly of a few people he didn't mention, that he feels are more than capable of handling themselves well in the proposed situation.

    Heck I am guessing there might even be a few that he put on there that he feels the team could do without, though obviously I could be wrong about that tidbit.

    I didn't even know a few of those people still even played, but I do recognize most of them.

    ---

    I am not even going to attempt to make a list, nor am I going to share my opinion about some of the names put on any of the list(s).

    Asthariel making the list of mystics (hypothetical list) FTW! Ok **** I shared an opinion. :$ Oops oh well. I am just glad that she is back. ^^

    ahh I see now its only Dyna peeps.

    thx for trying to make me feel better Slivaf....meh I still think he didnt put me there cause Im nub b:surrender
  • Aeliah - DreamweaverAeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Wth Aeliah!?!?!

    Were are me and Sun QQ

    I wana be in svs war to:(

    Wait... how much we going to be payed for that? b:laugh

    I was on the fence about you, Seduction, and Empathize---I'm not saying anybody left out isn't good, but I'm also taking gear into consideration here when looking at the server level. And yes some of the people I posted could be trumped by people in other factions. Its like when 5 highly qualified people apply for a job, but only 1 person gets the job, it doesn't mean that the 4 who weren't accepted were no good, just not the best one. Or in this case, best 80 lol. I myself am not personally familiar with everybody (as a person) that I posted, and if that is for my own faction, there's no way I could be as familiar about the good players in other factions. Naturally The__Sun belongs on the psychic list, but somebody in Tempest should post his name, just like somebody in Relic should post Heartz, Kalopsia, etc.

    also this is true.

    Aeliah did say it wasnt a full 80, so I am sure he thinks highly of a few people he didn't mention, that he feels are more than capable of handling themselves well in the proposed situation.

    Heck I am guessing there might even be a few that he put on there that he feels the team could do without, though obviously I could be wrong about that tidbit.
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  • Temptatio/V - DreamweaverTemptatio/V - Dreamweaver Posts: 301 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Catapult 3
    Torados
    Adibelle
    Dragonsomething bm r9rr from relic
    Tripsodom
    The_cure
    Andres
    Temptation or Seduction, idk wich one is sage
    Philco
    Nit

    Puts all my buffs on nig* cuse he put me in war b:victory
  • DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Cheers Aeliah for the very detailed and thorough responses, we can probably refine the exact numbers and distributions depending on the proposed ratings of experience, gear, temperament.

    EDIT: also thank you nige for your contribution

    The proposed format is pretty solid and looks like a good way to get the ball rolling on this thread. Hopefully we can get to a solid conclusion quicker than the other servers, I believe Raging Tide has also picked up this topic but haven't got far yet, mostly trolling and faction fighting. Harshlands is going along pretty smoothly, with a few nitpickings so far.

    I'd like to add, no offence should be taken by people not included on these 'dreamteam' lists, looking at the toon and the playstyle alone, and not the person behind it perhaps is a way to make this easier to digest.
    I propose to make this easier, somebody from each major TW faction posts the players from his/her own faction that they think would have the gear and experience and willingness to follow orders that are required for a high-level, cross-server TW.

    So, then say we get 20 candidates for clerics, and we have 16 spots-then we can do some real debate about relative gear/experience of various candidates and have our final pick of 16.

    For example, from Dynasty:
    ...

    Candidates from Relic: based on gear/TW experience - not listed in any order

    Archers: - 13 candidates, 14 asked for
    - Heartz
    - RedMouse
    - Andres
    - G_Tar_God
    - Vali_
    - Peachies
    - Kallypso
    - $plinters
    - xGalatea
    - CritSpree
    - Caladiel
    - Sir_Rusty
    - DarkSkiesx

    Clerics: - 9 candidates, 16 asked for
    - The_Cure_
    - Adibelle
    - Racquel
    - Yuunnie
    - Kisma
    - Gwendollyn
    - Thrine
    - Re_Animator
    - Temiko

    Venomancers: - 2 candidates, 8 asked for
    - LadyCatt
    - Ivory

    Barbarians: - 6 candidates, 10 asked for
    - The_Plague
    - Deadwake
    - KaminariSama (Nanbuk)
    - CHUM
    - Beastly_Jay
    - Jans

    Blademasters: - 7 candidates, 8 asked for
    - Steel_Dragon
    - slewdem
    - X_Drac_X
    - Archaius
    - Tsukiyumi
    - A_Peenice
    - _Achmed_

    Wizards: - 4 candidates, 12 heavy magic dds asked for
    - Tche_BR
    - Philco
    - Cheryl_
    - Fireballer

    Psychics: - 8 candidates, 12 heavy magic dds asked for
    - Anjumara
    - Evangile
    - xCurse
    - Presents
    - Raffiel
    - SuperLambo
    - Tahimara
    - FnBaronHero

    Assassins: - 2 candidates, 4 asked for
    -AlonaWorld
    - llChaosll

    Mystics: - 4 candidates, 8 asked for
    - PG_Junior
    - Cherriies
    - Dulcesito
    - Snoekjie

    Seekers: - 8 candidates, 8 asked for
    - Kalopsia
    - ShadeWarden
    - Breeezy
    - Ebrithalia
    - purpleseeker
    - Cinnumon
    - Tippers
    - _Vig_
    DarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
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  • Aeliah - DreamweaverAeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    MY dream team for a tw: trying to do wiht all active ppl and ofc some ppl must do what i tell them lol couse they have the potential to do what i can imagine but they dont, sometimes.

    i am sure i missed many many many many ppl, and there are ppl there i dont like. How they play or just how they are. But i see the potential in their toons XD

    Nice list... I can definitely tell what you have in mind by who you've picked. A couple notes:

    -switch Tahimara with SkyIIa; EX_tacy and SkyIIa have been working together for years in the same squad, don't split that up
    -Re_Animator and PG in same squad is a mistake; neither of them heals as much as they aught to; consider switching Re_Animator with SonH, because SonH will definitely heal

    Cheers Aeliah for the very detailed and thorough responses, we can probably refine the exact numbers and distributions depending on the proposed ratings of experience, gear, temperament.

    EDIT: also thank you nige for your contribution

    The proposed format is pretty solid and looks like a good way to get the ball rolling on this thread. Hopefully we can get to a solid conclusion quicker than the other servers, I believe Raging Tide has also picked up this topic but haven't got far yet, mostly trolling and faction fighting. Harshlands is going along pretty smoothly, with a few nitpickings so far.

    I'd like to add, no offence should be taken by people not included on these 'dreamteam' lists, looking at the toon and the playstyle alone, and not the person behind it perhaps is a way to make this easier to digest.

    Once we have a list from Tempest, and possibly BootyCamp and Kindrid, we can compile the names into a mega list, and sort each class into a two piles: 'must haves' and 'maybes', and then debate the maybes until we have the exact # of people we are looking for. Naturally there will be some contention, possibly a bit of epeen, but if we could try and justify one choice over another based on concrete evidence of gear, or personal observations of player skill, that can help sway a decision one way or another. Also, just because (for example) I put a player on maybe, does not mean I think the person is less skilled or gear; in some cases, it may be because I'm not familiar with the person, and need more evidence to justify him/her being on the list.

    As well, there must be a look at each class after these lists are compiled to see if there are enough geared candidates to justify having the # asked for. For example, if we have 25 top-geared archers and only 5 top geared venos and 3 average geared venos, it might be justifiable to replace 3 venos with top-geared archers.



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  • Nigelus - DreamweaverNigelus - Dreamweaver Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Nice list... I can definitely tell what you have in mind by who you've picked. A couple notes:


    -Re_Animator and PG in same squad is a mistake; neither of them heals as much as they aught to; consider switching Re_Animator with SonH, because SonH will definitely heal







    omg read my entire post!!QQ i said that i dint picked the players for what they do. i did it for what i see on them. and even so i said PG would need to heal more :P.

    and about how they work toghether, well thats nothing i can do i just formed some squads based in some average knewledge of tw.

    PS: i didnt put me in the list, find that too stupid :P

    PS2: we moved from giving tw advices to giving priority targets? this post is awsome :P if u know what i meant <3<3


    new relic priority targets:
    Archers: - 13 candidates, 14 asked for
    - Heartz
    - RedMouse
    - Andres
    - G_Tar_God
    - Vali_
    - Peachies
    - Kallypso
    - $plinters
    - xGalatea
    - CritSpree
    - Caladiel
    - Sir_Rusty
    - DarkSkiesx

    Clerics: - 9 candidates, 16 asked for
    - The_Cure_
    - Adibelle
    - Racquel
    - Yuunnie
    - Kisma
    - Gwendollyn
    - Thrine
    - Re_Animator
    - Temiko

    Venomancers: - 2 candidates, 8 asked for
    - LadyCatt
    - Ivory

    Barbarians: - 6 candidates, 10 asked for
    - The_Plague
    - Deadwake
    - KaminariSama (Nanbuk)
    - CHUM
    - Beastly_Jay
    - Jans

    Blademasters: - 7 candidates, 8 asked for
    - Steel_Dragon
    - slewdem
    - X_Drac_X
    - Archaius
    - Tsukiyumi
    - A_Peenice
    - _Achmed_

    Wizards: - 4 candidates, 12 heavy magic dds asked for
    - Tche_BR
    - Philco
    - Cheryl_
    - Fireballer

    Psychics: - 8 candidates, 12 heavy magic dds asked for
    - Anjumara
    - Evangile
    - xCurse
    - Presents
    - Raffiel
    - SuperLambo
    - Tahimara
    - FnBaronHero

    Assassins: - 2 candidates, 4 asked for
    -AlonaWorld
    - llChaosll

    Mystics: - 4 candidates, 8 asked for
    - PG_Junior
    - Cherriies
    - Dulcesito
    - Snoekjie

    Seekers: - 8 candidates, 8 asked for
    - Kalopsia
    - ShadeWarden
    - Breeezy
    - Ebrithalia
    - purpleseeker
    - Cinnumon
    - Tippers
    - _Vig_


    Squads leads, u know what u have to do <3<3<3 tys darj for provide a clean list of the best geared ppl in relic, i had them in mind always but never in a list....oo wait...nvm
  • DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    PS2: we moved from giving tw advices to giving priority targets? this post is awsome :P if u know what i meant <3<3

    new relic priority targets:

    Squads leads, u know what u have to do <3<3<3 tys darj for provide a clean list of the best geared ppl in relic, i had them in mind always but never in a list....oo wait...nvm

    nigiliurs, step out of TT/WS man. If you didn't know/haven't heard of these people before idk what server you've been playing on. You also were in Relic and quite a few of these names haven't changed since then.

    Also telling your 2 sin 1 bm herpaderp recon/focus kill squad to *prioritise* those 63 people out of 70-80 people.....

    In case you're trolling let me remind you what I said in the 1st post.
    Let's keep it drama/troll/flame/politics/epeen free.

    Thanks.

    This isn't about giving TW advice. If you are learning from it, then that's great, but please stay on topic.
    DarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
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  • Nigelus - DreamweaverNigelus - Dreamweaver Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    :P U might know, i might know, others might know. But i am sure ur tw squads leads dont know,at least not all.

    Not trolling just thanking u for the clean list of ppl i always had in mind couse i know them.

    I bet Dynasty ppl are gonna write a nice list of the ppl ur squads leads should start killing first.b:bye this post is too boring.
  • SakuLv - DreamweaverSakuLv - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,400 Arc User
    edited February 2014
  • DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    :P U might know, i might know, others might know. But i am sure ur tw squads leads dont know,at least not all.

    Not trolling just thanking u for the clean list of ppl i always had in mind couse i know them.

    I bet Dynasty ppl are gonna write a nice list of the ppl ur squads leads should start killing first.b:bye this post is too boring.

    http://core.perfectworld.com/guild/members?guild_id=10-24-pwi

    Perhaps you haven't heard of core connect. Here is the link to Dynasty's. It shows you who has joined, when they joined, a complete guild roster etc.

    Feel free to check out ours also.

    Thank you for your contribution to the thread, apologies we could not engage your interest further.
    DarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
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    DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
    mypers.pw/1.7/#136481

    youtube.com/darkskiesx
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  • Nigelus - DreamweaverNigelus - Dreamweaver Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I would put 80 venos in TW f:sneaky

    1 purge for each person ;D

    +1 80 venos seems legit.

    http://core.perfectworld.com/guild/members?guild_id=10-24-pwi

    Perhaps you haven't heard of core connect. Here is the link to Dynasty's. It shows you who has joined, when they joined, a complete guild roster etc.

    Feel free to check out ours also.

    Thank you for your contribution to the thread, apologies we could not engage your interest further.

    LOL, yeah i dont know how to use Core QQ tys for enlighting me, sensei dark!
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