PWI not supporting 'normal' players

ovenusarmanio

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well, I can see that from your perspective Venus, but many of us stuck in lesser gears are stuck there for many different reasons.

One reason probably many share is because we are spending our game time working to get better gears. No one who has dedicated their time to slowly grinding acceptable gears is going to want to totally forget that all encompassing goal just to divert their focus and energy to rebirthing. In that sense, they probably arent going to jump to do it.

Let's say I rebirth twice, get 105 101 100, arent I really smack-dab in the exact same place that I was before the expansion when all is said and done? I still have my R8, and fair to middling tome, etc. The only way that is really going to equal any progress for me is if no one else bothered - and, we know its too late for that.

In my case, I made a server change and started a totally new char. I was hoping to find a server more populated during my play time. b:surrender Obviously, the need to rebirth right away was not at the forefront of my gaming mind. That reasoning process has everything to do with being f2p.

My gear really isn't that great, I rerolled servers only 1 year ago so it's pretty much the same on HT as if I had only been playing a year. Because of my computer, for a long time I couldn't merchant. I'm stuck in the very average category although I'm slowly building my way up. I still reawakened. And yes, I'm working on better gear. Do you know why? Because the extra stat points will help me farm that gear, and it's only a few days out of my time. If you have individual reasons for not wanting to reawaken, that is all fine and good. But that doesn't mean that the system itself is p2w. Just like because I can't personally take full advantage of merchatning, doesn't mean merchanting isn't an excellent source of income for f2p players. I did merchant on DW and it served me very well.

Brillance - Raging Tide

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

My gear really isn't that great, I rerolled servers only 1 year ago so it's pretty much the same on HT as if I had only been playing a year. Because of my computer, I cannot merchant. I'm stuck in the very average category although I'm slowly building my way up. I still rerolled. And yes, I'm working on better gear. Do you know why? Because the extra stat points will help me farm that gear, and it's only a few days out of my time. If you have individual reasons for not wanting to reawaken, that is all fine and good. But that doesn't mean that the system itself is p2w.

That is definately a very good reason for a gear-goal oriented player to give the benefits of Rebirthing a second think-through. It might even be fun too, instead of looking at your MMO as your second job, you might find it to be a game again. Thanks for the 'food for thought'. b:victoryb:thanks

ovenusarmanio

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

That is definately a very good reason for a gear-goal oriented player to give the benefits of Rebirthing a second think-through. It might even be fun too, instead of looking at your MMO as your second job, you might find it to be a game again. Thanks for the 'food for thought'. b:victoryb:thanks

If that goal you're working toward is r999, keep in mind that people who rebirthed are better able to get things like the cards which will make a big difference in your pvp goals. You might as well get that stuff done at the same time as farming the r999 instead of waiting til you have it then trying to play catch up. There really isn't a lot of downsides to reawakening.

hadesgabriel

Two and a half years for a F2P user to get the R9 gear and one day for a P2W user what do you call that

Miugre - Heavens Tear

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

You can do both, and many successful games out there add new expansions and find ways to keep older stuff relevant. There is no reason this game has to stagnate with new content in order to fix the old content. Desdi gave a great example. A person using exclusives versus a person wearing gems? The person with the gem has the obvious advantage, but not so much so that the person with the exclusives can't kill the person with gems. But it's still enough of an advantage to be worth farming. Being able to farm charms is another example. Those are both readily available items that would offer obvious benefits to being made cheaper, offers an opportunity to add in fun, new, challenging content and does not break what is already available in-game.

Total agreement with this. What you're describing is an example of a significant, but not game-breaking advantage. Very different from what we have now PVP-wise.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I said that g16+7 could be the base, not that R9S3 should be the only one who can farm it. But what reason is there to get better gear if you don't PVP? And people want to feel like they are being rewarded for their extra effort, not punished. Why would the average person purposefully want to devalue their own efforts? Why would you want to pay more money and spend more time for the same item? It doesn't need to be more rewarding to a stupid degree but there should be a little extra reward for the effort. Enough to make it exciting to do.

The initial complaint by the R9 crowd was lack of challenge, wasn't it? They're using gear that the PVE game was not designed for, and they're hoping for more of a challenge. I don't see why they can't have that, but it doesn't mean they're entitled to more rewards than anyone else. See below also since it's directly related:

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I disagree, if I've dedicated more total time to my character than a new person, I want my character's abilities to reflect that. If I'm new, I don't want to hit endgame straight away an have nothing to look forward to, that's boring as all get out. I think that PWI is extremely excessive in it's gear gap. The difference between g16 nirvana gear and R999 gear is just totally ridiculous. And it's a direct hindrance to this game's longevity. But that doesn't meant there shouldn't be any functional difference between someone who just hit level 100 and is wearing mold gear and someone who has played for years wearing g16.

You're making the classic mistake here of assuming that someone who has played for years inherently wants to wear R9, or even g16. People treat gear like it's a simply linear progression of power that no one in their right mind would fail to follow, and that line of thinking is totally, totally misguided. Mold, TT99, Nirv s1/s2, g15 Morai, OHT, Lunar green/gold, even R8 and R8S2... there are tons of gear sets out there that are perfectly reasonable choices for endgame PVE. Upgrading gears should only be done if one wants a slight edge (like in your Exclusive vs. Gem example above). It should never be a requirement, and instances should never be based around it.

ovenusarmanio

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

as played for years inherently wants to wear R9, or even g16. People treat gear like it's a simply linear progression of power that no one in their right mind would fail to follow, and that line of thinking is totally, totally misguided. Mold, TT99, Nirv s1/s2, g15 Morai, OHT, Lunar green/gold, even R8 and R8S2... there are tons of gear sets out there that are perfectly reasonable choices for endgame PVE. Upgrading gears should only be done if one wants a slight edge (like in your Exclusive vs. Gem example above). It should never be a requirement, and instances should never be based around it.

A skilled person in Rank 8 should be able to get by any instance that required moderately refined g16 gear to do. TT99 isn't endgame gear if they want to gimp themselves (or are just using it for the APS bonus) that is their choice but that doesn't meant they are entitled to run every last instance, any more than people with r999 gear should be allowed to use that gear in every PK thing. In fact, I do think they should have more level based PVP. Just so people can do other things like maybe 90-100 101+ being separate brackets. This game has room for the all different types and I don't see why content can't be developed in a smart way to provide incentive to want to gear up but not significantly hinder gameplay if you don't. Few would stop taking people in like nirvy s1/s2 gear into BHs because those people don't have the gear to farm up gems instead and are instead using exclusive shards. Even in the link weapon, nirvana hay day, I was still able to do BH even before I was full 5.0.

And again, the challenge is not enough of a reward. People want to do challenging rewards for a decent payoff. If the reward isn't worth the extra challenge, then what you are getting is something that is punishing rather than challenging. And sure there are a few people that don't mind punishing gameplay, but most of of us would like to be rewarded for being crazy enough to put in all that extra effort. You are also ignoring the fact that if the more challenging tiers of an instance didn't give more rewards, that it would mean they are actually getting less rewards because the costs of doing the more challenging stuff eats into the profit. Few people want to do more for less.

If someone purposefully hinders themselves by making themselves geared no different than a new player, that is their choice. And there should still be plenty of content for them to do. That doesn't mean there shouldn't also be content for those who do want to gear up and progress in the game.

opkossy

Haven't posted much in this but...

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

And again, the challenge is not enough of a reward. People want to do challenging rewards for a decent payoff. If the reward isn't worth the extra challenge, then what you are getting is something that is punishing rather than challenging. And sure there are a few people that don't mind punishing gameplay, but most of of us would like to be rewarded for being crazy enough to put in all that extra effort. You are also ignoring the fact that if the more challenging tiers of an instance didn't give more rewards, that it would mean they are actually getting less rewards because the costs of doing the more challenging stuff eats into the profit. Few people want to do more for less.

I feel this needs to be emphasized. A lot. Rebirth Alpha/Beta? Incredibly challenging instance for various reasons. And yet it's also a ghost town that nobody does or even attempts. Gamma/Delta? Absurdly easy by comparision... and also the ones everyone would spam prior to the changes that made Rebirth in general unattractive.

Very few people are going to take a challenge for the sake of being challenged. Even fewer will be able to find a group of like-minded individuals to tackle those challenges. It's why there needs to be an incentive so that the challenges aren't ignored.

Brillance - Raging Tide

OPKossy wrote: »

Haven't posted much in this but...


I feel this needs to be emphasized. A lot. Rebirth Alpha/Beta? Incredibly challenging instance for various reasons. And yet it's also a ghost town that nobody does or even attempts. Gamma/Delta? Absurdly easy by comparision... and also the ones everyone would spam prior to the changes that made Rebirth in general unattractive.

Very few people are going to take a challenge for the sake of being challenged. Even fewer will be able to find a group of like-minded individuals to tackle those challenges. It's why there needs to be an incentive so that the challenges aren't ignored.

I can't help but feel a sense of segregaton when I see people offer lower-levels the advice that, "Challenge is its own reward." One would think if someone thought that way, or in any particular way, they would think the way they think would apply to any player in the game, regardless of their gears.

Given the structure of the game, and the chasm between end-game gears, I can only agree with you in the sense that an economic chasm seems to need to be maintained as well. Its still rather bitter - but it is what it is. *shrugs*

ovenusarmanio

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

I can't help but feel a sense of segregaton when I see people offer lower-levels the advice that, "Challenge is its own reward. One would think if someone thought that way, or in any particular way, they would think the way they think would apply to any player in the game, regardless of their gears.

Given the structure of the game, and the chasm between end-game gears, I can only agree with you in the sense that an economic chasm seems to need to be maintained as well. Its still rather bitter - but it is what it is. *shrugs*

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

I can't help but feel a sense of segregaton when I see people offer lower-levels the advice that, "Challenge is its own reward. One would think if someone thought that way, or in any particular way, they would think the way they think would apply to any player in the game, regardless of their gears.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

I can't help but feel a sense of segregaton when I see people offer lower-levels the advice that, "Challenge is its own reward.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

when I see people offer lower-levels the advice that, "Challenge is its own reward.

What? Where? When? Why? What in the what?

Brillance - Raging Tide

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

What? Where? When? Why? What in the what?

What in the what, what?

Something struck a note with you, talk about what you disagree with? Its hard to elaborate given your current...dismay, I guess.

Is there something you feel is incorrect in what I said?

I just read recently where someone told someone complaining about rewards that, "challenge is its own reward." Are you saying someone did not say that? You disagree with it? What?

If the people that have the most based on the extra-large advantage of buying the ability to easilt solo anything, should continue to collect and control the most expensive items collectable in the game, then there is a economic chasm as well - other than gears.

Do you disagee with that?

Explain yourself, woman! b:chuckle


On thinking about it, those who only use the very best typically own any form of PvP, be it 1v1 or mass PK-ish instances, like TW and NW, reaping the very best rewards from those. Is THAT not enough, or do they need every last crumb from the pie as well?

I can indeed appreciate wanting a challenge, but I'll never understand why the challenge is never in place for these type players within any reasonable time-proximity to the gears. As far as needing better rewards. Really? Is that challenge not its own reward too? I honestly would think it would be. If people are happy with the game the way it is, that is okay too ya know. As long as those who keep it going get what they want, its all good.

ovenusarmanio

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

What in the what, what?

Something struck a note with you, talk about what you disagree with? Its hard to elaborate given your current...dismay, I guess.

Is there something you feel is incorrect in what I said?

I just read recently where someone told someone complaining about rewards that, "challenge is its own reward." Are you saying someone did not say that? You disagree with it? What?

If the people that have the most based on the extra-large advantage of buying the ability to easilt solo anything, should continue to collect and control the most expensive items collectable in the game, then there is a economic chasm as well - other than gears.

Do you disagee with that?

Explain yourself, woman! b:chuckle

I don't know who would advise lower levels to needlessly take on stuff they probably are asking for help because they can't do just because it's own reward. A lot of the lowbie stuff is just obviously soloable with the charms and stuff, or clearly unable to be done without help. And the stuff that most people recommend have clear rewards. So I don't know what that could possible be about but I kinda hope that isn't a general trend on your server to disregard lowbies like that.....I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised but you really make it sound like a large issue and that is surprising.

As for the economic chasm, a lot of that has to do with people being veterans and there not being enough coin sinks. In addition they do not enforce mutliclienting and botting rules well enough.

Brillance - Raging Tide

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I don't know who would advise lower levels to needlessly take on stuff they probably are asking for help because they can't do just because it's own reward. A lot of the lowbie stuff is just obviously soloable with the charms and stuff, or clearly unable to be done without help. And the stuff that most people recommend have clear rewards. So I don't know what that could possible be about but I kinda hope that isn't a general trend on your server to disregard lowbies like that.....

I dont understand why you dont know. You were just talking about the better geared players needing a stronger instance. Yes, any R9T3 + 12 JoSD needs a stronger instance, with a challenge. Then someone went on to say they naturally - cause they already have everything - need better rewards.

We obviously dont live in the same server, Venus. Ive had plenty of faction mates over the years say they will help me, but in reality, its more like me helping them - if Im allowed to go do anything at all. In any faction Ive been in that had TW at its core of being, 9.5 times out of 10 I was only even spoken to for TW on my server. I havent been carried through this game in anyway whatsoever - until now, on my new server.

There are very good helpful people on RT, but my new server is even better to a certain degree. It is more on my socio-economic level. Not as tense all the time. Seems happier. But, I conceed that could be just a newbs illusion. People are usually pretty much the same no matter where they gather overall. *shrugs*

I would add to that that there are low level factions on RT that I would easily join and be proud to do so, except for one very sad fact. I dont speak any language fluently other than English. b:surrender

ovenusarmanio

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

I dont understand why you dont know. You were just talking about the better geared players needing a stronger instance. Yes, any R9T3 + 12 JoSD needs a stronger instance, with a challenge. Then someone went on to say they naturally - cause they already have everything - need better rewards.

We obviously dont live in the same server, Venus. Ive had plenty of faction mates over the years say they will help me, but in reality, its more like me helping them - if Im allowed to go do anything at all. In any faction Ive been in that had TW at its core of being, 9.5 times out of 10 I was only even spoken to for TW on my server. I havent been carried through this game in anyway whatsoever - until now, on my new server.

There are very good helpful people on RT, but my new server is even better to a certain degree. It is more on my socio-economic level. Not as tense all the time. Seems happier. But, I conceed that could be just a newbs illusion. People are usually pretty much the same no matter where they gather overall. *shrugs*

Wait, you are extrapolating THAT from what I said? I don't even. If you are then I don't even know what to say. I feel like I've been carrying around a freaking soapbox when it comes to trying to get the sub-100 content looked at and made better. I really do. And I'm willing to go so far as to take away power leveling in frost altogether just so new players have someone they can play with for a small amount of time, because it' not like leveling to 75 will take a long time for a veteran anyway. Which I know, you know. I have never said anything even remotely close to that. And I was arguing that any content people do should be REWARDING. The challenge is it's own reward line came from Miugre, and he didn't mean it to be specifically about low levels only. In fact, he was replying to a discussion about endgame content.

Yes better geared players need some more challenging PVE content. Low game needs an overhaul. Mid geared players need some more things to do. And we ALL need more ways to farm coin. At endgame, most of what there is to do is PVP. And there a LOT of people who don't get better gear because they have what they need to do everything in PVE and do not like to PVP. That's just a fact. It would be nice to give those people more to do. It would be nice to have more PVP content that is gear/level bracketed, so more people can face equally geared opponents. And all of this should have rewards that are proportional to the challenge and costs required to do them. I even said that any extra rewads given to the high-end instance should be done with caution so that it is NOT game breaking and gives them yet another ridiculous edge.

I don't even.......

Brillance - Raging Tide

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Wait, you are extrapolating THAT from what I said? I don't even. If you are then I don't even know what to say. I feel like I've been carrying around a freaking soapbox when it comes to trying to get the sub-100 content looked at and made better. I really do. And I'm willing to go so far as to take away power leveling in frost altogether just so new players have someone they can play with for a small amount of time, because it' not like leveling to 75 will take a long time for a veteran anyway. Which I know, you know. I have never said anything even remotely close to that. And I was arguing that any content people do should be REWARDING. The challenge is it's own reward line came from Miugre, and he didn't mean it to be specifically about low levels only. In fact, he was replying to a discussion about endgame content.

Yes better geared players need some more challenging PVE content. Low game needs an overhaul. Mid geared players need some more things to do. And we ALL need more ways to farm coin. At endgame, most of what there is to do is PVP. And there a LOT of people who don't get better gear because they have what they need to do everything in PVE and do not like to PVP. That's just a fact. It would be nice to give those people more to do. It would be nice to have more PVP content that is gear/level bracketed, so more people can face equally geared opponents. And all of this should have rewards that are proportional to the challenge and costs required to do them. I even said that any extra rewads given to the high-end instance should be done with caution so that it is NOT game breaking and gives them yet another ridiculous edge.

I don't even.......

Venus, I think the part you are not getting is the fact that this thread is about PWI not supporting 'normal' players. Perhaps that has been lost sight of, and thats why you have no clue what Im talking about?

Yes, everything you say would be nice, but everything you say is not all there is to be said when a discussion is commencing. If you cant even...dont even...maybe its because you dont want to?

I'll leave you to continue discussing your brackets and better rewards. What are the chances that would ever happen, I might ask - but I wont. b:thanks

ovenusarmanio

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Venus, I think the part you are not getting is the fact that this thread is about PWI not supporting 'normal' players. Perhaps that has been lost sight of, and thats why you have no clue what Im talking about?

Yes, everything you say would be nice, but everything you say is not all there is to be said when a discussion is commencing. If you cant even...dont even...maybe its because you dont want to?

I'll leave you to continue discussing your brackets and better rewards. What are the chances that would ever happen, I might ask - but I wont. b:thanks

Yeah normal/casual players need reason to gear up and more ways to do so. Hence the suggestion of the farming instance. Most players are veterans so a new player/lowbie isn't exactly the norm but I think there should be stuff in there for them too. OP was talking about a lot of average geared, level 100 player concerns, which is why I focused on level 100 stuff. Which is why I still don't get why you would take what I said and apply to lowbie in the exact opposite way of what I clearly meant.

And yeah I don't think most of that would ever happen. Although there have been some revamps to the lower areas so hopefully that will mark a change in that regard. You know they even added a mine scout? That thing is really awesome. I remember really, really hating the level 20 culti because of all the going back and forth we had to do, and now they finally changed it! They also give all new players free mounts now! They don't even have to farm them. The machinated terror ones. They give them an all class pet and a free cage too, they don't gotta waste time farming the hay or buying it at outrageous prices. They also can farm wings that are triple the speed of the ones we used to get. Still half as fast as a pair of cash shop wings but still, that's pretty darn nifty! The dreamchaser gear is pretty awesome as well. I was able to solo my own FB19 at 19 with the pots and charms. It was a bit of challenge on the class I wasn't accustomed too (HA veno) but pretty easy with the class I was familiar with (sin) but nevertheless I did them both. It turned the first FB into a solo challenge that while hard and long, is rewarding. Some people may be dismayed at no longer needing a group for 19 but I think it's a positive change since it acknowledges that most people haven't been doing at level FBs for years now, and watching a high level tear through your FB is certainly less challenging than doing it on your own.

And the reward for bothering is better gear.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

"challenge is its own reward."

Yes, I disagree with it and I'll tell you why. A challenge is not a reward to everyone it is a reward to some, not everyone likes challenges. I hate it when people find sayings and they don't even know what they mean.

This statement only applies to particular people, not everyone. And even then it can be said the challenge is not the reward, but the challenge leads to a reward, as most challenges do. A challenge is not worth the trouble if it does not compensate you for your efforts, UNLESS you are the type that likes challenges. This statement deals with the latter alone.

Brillance - Raging Tide

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, I disagree with it and I'll tell you why. A challenge is not a reward to everyone it is a reward to some, not everyone likes challenges. I hate it when people find sayings and they don't even know what they mean.

This statement only applies to particular people, not everyone. And even then it can be said the challenge is not the reward, but the challenge leads to a reward, as most challenges do. A challenge is not worth the trouble if it does not compensate you for your efforts, UNLESS you are the type that likes challenges. This statement deals with the latter alone.

I hate it when people use sayings that dont apply to everyone. 'Challenge is its own reward' is not difficult for anyone to understand - which word wouldnt they get? But also, whats the point of saying it, if those same people would not apply it to themselves?

Elite geared players already have the compensation of locking down PvP completely, besides breezing through anything in PvE. Why would that not be compensation enough for their investments, if one is going to claim they deserve more for spending all that money? All that money - that they will not spend more than once per toon till another chasm-widening gear release comes along...and another - has already been clearly rewarded.

The only reason for anyone else to participate in anything PvP would be to find a lonely place where those on their gear level can compete 1v1 with each other. The game wasnt always that way. Different 'stockyards' were not needed to progressively store the 'cattle'.

Good rewards have always moved further and further away from those that needed them most. Whenever something passes along to anyone lower-geared it becomes not as valueable (i.e. cannys & raps). Big-money Cash Shoppers are not the only ones that want something better. They arent the only ones that want to experience a battleground, or to get a fair chance at a good drop.

Rumor has it that the Lucid Envoys are pretty much the only thing in the game that provides that individual equal shot at a good item. Everyone in the game has an alleged equal shot at the lucky drop of a scroll of tome. If its true, its probably one of the only things that it is worth every single players time and trouble to do. No bots controling who gets it, it would seem. No reliance on leet gears to try to obtain it. That's pure gaming awesomeness - giving the most players something to log in for. b:victory

In the end, how much do you really need to focus on maintaining a population of those who have already invested countless dollars or hours, or even both? How does that compare to ignoring the potential profit that would come slow and steady from new and 'normal' players? b:thanks