T3 Reroll?

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide

I rerolled my T3 daggers and got this as a result.

I was shooting for int but I don't think this is a bad roll. Overall I'm more concerned with how hard I hit as opposed to how fast I hit but I still don't want my APS to be too low. (I'm currently sitting at a 2.22APS base with these daggers.) So what some opinions on this? Should I keep trying to reroll for the int or keep them as they are and go ahead and start refining them?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide wrote: »

I rerolled my T3 daggers and got this as a result.

I was shooting for int but I don't think this is a bad roll. Overall I'm more concerned with how hard I hit as opposed to how fast I hit but I still don't want my APS to be too low. (I'm currently sitting at a 2.22APS base with these daggers.) So what some opinions on this? Should I keep trying to reroll for the int or keep them as they are and go ahead and start refining them?

lol? Roll for -int unless you're going to dph pk with them in which case roll for range and/or dex?

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lol? Roll for -int unless you're going to dph pk with them in which case roll for range and/or dex?

I do use DPH more often than APS, though I try to balance the two as best as I can. I thought that was a pretty decent roll for DPH, but then again I'm just now getting adjusted from a 2 year break so a lot of my knowledge about the game is a bit dated.

opkossy

Those are... really nice, honestly. I'd probably keep them a while if I were a demon. Your base APS at 2.22 shows you can still get 2 more peices of -int gear for standard APS setup and that would let you spark to 4.0 with them if demon. As is, you'd spark to 2.86 which is still respectable with chi skills filling the gap.

For sage it's slightly more iffy since the spark wouldn't increase attack speed. I'd likely keep them as a sage if I spent more time in PvP than not. But if I invested more time into PvE (as in soloing/duoing stuff and whatnot. Not stuff that's easy regardless of weapon like BHs) then it'd probably make sense to reroll for interval.

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide

OPKossy wrote: »

Those are... really nice, honestly. I'd probably keep them a while if I were a demon. Your base APS at 2.22 shows you can still get 2 more peices of -int gear for standard APS setup and that would let you spark to 4.0 with them if demon. As is, you'd spark to 2.86 which is still respectable with chi skills filling the gap.

For sage it's slightly more iffy since the spark wouldn't increase attack speed. I'd likely keep them as a sage if I spent more time in PvP than not. But if I invested more time into PvE (as in soloing/duoing stuff and whatnot. Not stuff that's easy regardless of weapon like BHs) then it'd probably make sense to reroll for interval.

Thanks, that is what I was wondering. I am a sage and I spend more time soloing/duoing than anything, but I always use windshield every time I spark. Though I also need to be able to PK for TW and NW.

And as for the int gear I'm missing the neck and belt for the basic int set up.

opkossy

The question in that case is... how comfortable are you with your permaspark rotation at your current APS?

A sage sin at 1.82 can chain sparks indefinitely, but would need to devote basically all their chi skills to doing so. At 2.0 and 2.22 it gets easier, at 2.5 it's better but not the greatest. At 2.86 and 3.33 you won't need to worry as much, and 4/5 are obviously natural permasparks.

If you feel very comfortable with how well you cycle your chi skills, it would be safe to leave the daggers as is. You have one of the best rolls for the damage you deal which will help greatly when you go for DPH... and being comfortable with your chi rotation, you can still permaspark reasonably.

On the other hand, if you feel like you'd prefer more breathing room in your spark rotation, you should go ahead and reroll for the interval. You'll lose out on some DPH, sure, but if your chi rotation is already pushing you then you're losing damage regardless. In that scenario, it's better to take the path that's easier on you even if it's a slight loss to your damage potential when you're switching from APS to DPH.

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide

OPKossy wrote: »

The question in that case is... how comfortable are you with your permaspark rotation at your current APS?

A sage sin at 1.82 can chain sparks indefinitely, but would need to devote basically all their chi skills to doing so. At 2.0 and 2.22 it gets easier, at 2.5 it's better but not the greatest. At 2.86 and 3.33 you won't need to worry as much, and 4/5 are obviously natural permasparks.

If you feel very comfortable with how well you cycle your chi skills, it would be safe to leave the daggers as is. You have one of the best rolls for the damage you deal which will help greatly when you go for DPH... and being comfortable with your chi rotation, you can still permaspark reasonably.

On the other hand, if you feel like you'd prefer more breathing room in your spark rotation, you should go ahead and reroll for the interval. You'll lose out on some DPH, sure, but if your chi rotation is already pushing you then you're losing damage regardless. In that scenario, it's better to take the path that's easier on you even if it's a slight loss to your damage potential when you're switching from APS to DPH.

I stack my skills where I never run out of sparks really, I'm definitely comfortable with my skills and have most of my skills saged already. Chi isn't a concern for me (I actually use a triple spark raving slash combo most of the time just to increase my base attack since sage raving slash gives me an additional 10 attack levels) and by the time that wears off I either rising dragon or inner harmony and I'm at max chi again (of course I have tackling slash to make up the difference if there ever is any).

So this is one of the higher DPH rolls I could get? As I said, I'm newly returning and still learning all the new gear. I've had a lot of mixed opinions from friends and guild mates so I figured I would ask on the forums for a bit more detailed advice on the subject.


Note: I've been using R8+7 daggers for the past 3 years, so I'm use to not having the additional int form my daggers.

opkossy

Well as you are comfortable with your chi management and sparks, keep them. In PvP, anything worth killing won't die to APS anyways and as long as you're comfortable enough with your current setup, it won't hinder you in PvE. Especially since you'd need -0.1 interval on them PLUS finishing your APS neck/belt to get 4.0... with windshield.

You may choose to get more interval (or aim for utility like +range) later on, if you feel like it, but from what you're saying now, those are great daggers that fit your style perfectly.

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide

OPKossy wrote: »

Well as you are comfortable with your chi management and sparks, keep them. In PvP, anything worth killing won't die to APS anyways and as long as you're comfortable enough with your current setup, it won't hinder you in PvE. Especially since you'd need -0.1 interval on them PLUS finishing your APS neck/belt to get 4.0... with windshield.

You may choose to get more interval (or aim for utility like +range) later on, if you feel like it, but from what you're saying now, those are great daggers that fit your style perfectly.

Awesome. Thanks for all the input. Now I just need to refine and shard them.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide wrote: »

Awesome. Thanks for all the input. Now I just need to refine and shard them.

Dat roll, holy ****b:shocked

MyMate - Dreamweaver

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Dat roll, holy ****b:shocked

Same odds as rolling 3x -int, which people goes: "hellafkingballstothewallawesome!! b:dirty" about xD

Zoldi - Morai

I don't understand the importance you give to max attack.
Talking about DPH only, wouldn't it be better to get Dext or Att Lev ?

opkossy

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

I don't understand the importance you give to max attack.
Talking about DPH only, wouldn't it be better to get Dext or Att Lev ?

+130 max attack is like adding a garnet gem.
+1 Attack level is... less than adding a flawless garnet shard. At best. At worst, it's below an average shard.

+Dex is great, but it only contributes so much. Having +Phys attack when you already have a high amount of dex will usually be better overall due to the fact that you'll already have a high crit and a large amount of phys attack multipliers from dex and weapon mastery. Plus buffs will provide an extra boost from phys attack. On top of that, skills that include weapon damage also benefit more from a greater phys attack.

Zoldi - Morai

OPKossy wrote: »

+130 max attack is like adding a garnet gem

This is typically what I was wondering.
I suppose that you're making an average and as a result you consider that :
+130 max phy attack = +65 phy attack
Am I right ?

opkossy

Pretty much.

For DPS purposes, it's the same as adding a garnet gem since we average that out anyways. For DPH, it's actually as valuable as a drakeflame due to the max damage increase (aka higher potential spikes).

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

OPKossy wrote: »

Pretty much.

For DPS purposes, it's the same as adding a garnet gem since we average that out anyways. For DPH, it's actually as valuable as a drakeflame due to the max damage increase (aka higher potential spikes).

It adds to the max damage of WE+crits. Even more valuable on demon since 40% crit damage increase.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

<Still a fan of aps. Basically what you have there is a weapon you pull out only for aoeing in Deltas and maybe Metal because it has 3% more dph than a pair of -int daggers would. I'm not rich enough to shard and refine a a pair of dph daggers and then craft, shard, refine a pair of -int daggers just for a 3% dph difference. A pair of -int daggers would still probably have 2 damage adds out of 3, so that's what I'd go for.

OPKossy wrote: »

A sage sin at 1.82 can chain sparks indefinitely, but would need to devote basically all their chi skills to doing so. At 2.0 and 2.22 it gets easier, at 2.5 it's better but not the greatest. At 2.86 and 3.33 you won't need to worry as much, and 4/5 are obviously natural permasparks.

This is true, but you're basically down to skill spamming to keep your permaspark and your dps majorly suffers. This is the difference between 180k dps sage and 80k dps sage. Skill spamming while tanking also has its inherent risks. If you need to RDS or Tackling Slash to get your chi up to 3 sparks that means you're not getting any paint heals for the 2 seconds each of those skills takes. Plus, if you're using IH to keep your sparks up this knocks out using Subsea for the squad or PD for yourself which is a huge lose also.

And the better your gear gets the less you even care about 25% damage reduction on your triple spark and the more you care about maximizing dps for thousands of paint heals a second.

As "fun" as those daggers are they're reroll fodder imo. A demon might be able to get away with 4.0 sparked and those daggers but a sage at 2.86 is mostly just a paint **** for the squad while he watches others do the dding.

opkossy

That last bit is the type of generalization you should probably try to stray from as it's easy to take out of the context of the daggers presented and many would probably do just that. :P



As for the rest... well i did already point out that you'd ssentially devote all your chi skills to the spark rotation at a lower APS. Granted, if someone chose to put a chi skill on their genie for whatever reason, they'd get the extra for subseas/powerdash/emergency sparks but meh... not really that worth it, IMO.

I do disagree on both parts of what you said about getting better gear. Playing both a 4.0 demon with R9 third cast daggers and 2.86 sage (in standard APS setup anyways. R8R gear is better for my personal -interval but not everyone is gonna get lucky on that) most times I... really didn't care about either maximizing DPS or survivability. On my sage I cared rather little about needing to worry about survival because lolsparkreduction meant even in some of the stupidest scenarios I'd live... and my DPS was more than high enough for me to often times decide to be lazy and spend an extra 3-5 seconds to kill the boss instead of overkilling it and ending the fight with only half of my chi full and then having to press a whole one button to refill it. On the demon, I was slightly more concerned about survival but once I finished sharding and refining the APS set, survival really wasn't that big a deal. I may not have had sage spark to rely on, but I did have a genie, nerves, and tidal like any other sin so at worst I'd have an extra charm tick my sage wouldn't have (conservation of charm is kinda meaningless when most PvP doesn't do much to your charm and PvE is... well... PvE) and then I'd just shrug and continue.


But even with that all out of the way... 2.86 doesn't actually need to devote much time to chi skills at all. Especially if they're like the OP and use windshield frequently (though I preferred to use it right as my spark ended to keep the damage reduction going and so I could alternate subsea and power dash every time I sparked). And a 2.86 sage that's still using their skills and being smart about it is nowhere near as sidelined as your post makes it seem.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

OPKossy wrote: »

And a 2.86 sage that's still using their skills and being smart about it is nowhere near as sidelined as your post makes it seem.

Depends on the squad. I personally try to contribute everything I can to almost every squad I join and don't like being under-geared or under-skilled, distracted, or a leach. This build looks like they'd contribute half as much as other sins and be "that guy." Most squads will be okay with that. As long as they provide sage paint who cares about DDing or the ability to have chi to use support skills like Subsea or have a genie energy free to amp bosses.

The point of the thread was if those daggers are good enough and while we're all trying to be supportive little sunshines and unicorn farts I'm trying to be honest that while they're a neat roll I think eventually the OP will get over their neatness and want daggers that have better chi gain, provide better paint heals, and give better dps. You be supportive, and instead I'll be honest and help them save millions before they shard and refine a dagger that probably should be rerolled as much as a dagger with 3x +magic adds.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

There can only be so many supports in a squad; sooner or later someone has to step up, gear up and become a proper DD.

Let's do math for that weapon:

An important thing to note is that all 3 adds are for maximum physical attack only. That means your average DPH gain is only half of that

Assuming you get your last piece of interval gear, with those daggers you sit at 2.5 base. As a sage you are basically stuck with that.

I'll assume you have ~450ish dex and sage mastery, 70 atk levels with jones, about 30% base crit. Clearly you will not be going for powerdash regularly because you don't generate enough chi for it yet.

The real dps gain from adds is (0.5)E(130, 106, 130)*1.9*1.7*1.3*(450/150)*2.5=+5763.128

Windshielded 2.86 (I think this is the correct jump? Correct me if I'm wrong): +6593.018

*THIS IS THE AMOUNT GAINED BY +MAX DAMAGE ADDS ALONE*

Now let's take a look at a pair of daggers with no damage adds but -0.05 interval
You will have a base of 2.86, windshield 3.33

I will have to use dagger base and then subtract.

Base 2.50: 29681.681
>Gain with -int: N/A
Base 2.86: AVG(754, 1131)*1.9*1.7*1.3*(450/150)=33955.843
>Gain with -int: 33955.843-29681.681 = +4274.162
>>-Int no dmg add : 3x max dmg adds base aps==> 4274.162/5763.128 = -25.836%
Base 3.33: 39535.999
>Gain with -int: 39535.999-29681.681 = +9854.318
>>-Int no dmg add : 3x max dmg adds windshield==> 9854.318/6593.018 = +49.466%

*Rounding correct to 3 decimal places
**Does not take buffs and Wolf Emblem into account

I think you can see the difference yourself. With no windshield your current weapon outdamages a -int G16 weapon of the same refine by 25.836%. Once windshield goes on a blank, no-damage-add G16 weapon of similar refines outdamages your current roll by 49.466%, twice what you lose when not windshielded, if you rolled 2X magic and -0.05 interval.

This is because attack rate is pretty much the most effective dps booster in this game. With aps boosting skills such as windshield, relentless courage and demon spark, for demons, a single -interval is multiplied exponentially. On the other hand, losing one of those damage stats shaves off 65 or 53 weapon damage, about in between a perfect and an immaculate garnet shard, which isn't a minor loss by any means but is minuscule in PVP because its effect is reduced by 75%

tl:dr : Reroll

ovenusarmanio

Well what instances and things do you spend most of your time doing? Is this toon primarily for BH and NW for example. A lot of the stuff in BH nowadays favors DPH. Or this a farming sin primarily meant for TT?

You aren't really going to get a better pair of T3 DPH daggers should you ever want them, the odds of geting a roll like that are very low. And pretty expensive. Whereas it wouldn't cost nearly as much to make a set of APS daggers down the road, should you ever decide to focus more on APS down the line. It's possible you'd never see a pair of DPH daggers that good again, whereas int daggers are ridiculously common. You can use them in nation wars, and in an array of content that isn't as APS friendly. Judging by PWCNs recent developments towards APS, the amount of bosses with anti-aps buffs are only going to increase. As they have made the game more and more aps unfriendly. Also a calc of your build would probably help people get a better idea of what would be most suited to you as well as what you intend to do with the gear.

Salari - Raging Tide

As a demon or sage, I would love a roll like that, great pvp weapon as well. APS isnt everything, and high aps isnt even required for any of the farming instances even in mobless fws. Chi management can be a problem but is not much of a concern for me, even if I was sage

If you are more concerned with having the max amount of dps/heals ps you can have, then reroll to get atleast one int, if not I would keep them

b:victory

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Well what instances and things do you spend most of your time doing? Is this toon primarily for BH and NW for example. A lot of the stuff in BH nowadays favors DPH. Or this a farming sin primarily meant for TT?

You aren't really going to get a better pair of T3 DPH daggers should you ever want them, the odds of geting a roll like that are very low. And pretty expensive. Whereas it wouldn't cost nearly as much to make a set of APS daggers down the road, should you ever decide to focus more on APS down the line. It's possible you'd never see a pair of DPH daggers that good again, whereas int daggers are ridiculously common. You can use them in nation wars, and in an array of content that isn't as APS friendly. Judging by PWCNs recent developments towards APS, the amount of bosses with anti-aps buffs are only going to increase. As they have made the game more and more aps unfriendly. Also a calc of your build would probably help people get a better idea of what would be most suited to you as well as what you intend to do with the gear.

This is actually my only toon, so I use it for everything. I would make a calc for my build, but I have a few pieces of gear that are really out of place that I'm still working on replacing, so I know some of my gear is still laughable for end game.

I've decided to keep the daggers as is for their DPH and am now working on refines and shards for them. I'm going to try and +10 them with 2 garnet shards if I can.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

As "fun" as those daggers are they're reroll fodder imo. A demon might be able to get away with 4.0 sparked and those daggers but a sage at 2.86 is mostly just a paint **** for the squad while he watches others do the dding.

You should watch what you say. Even in squad where we have a demon with the same dagger/refines, I normally end up being the primary tank AND dd because lets face it. Sage tends to produce better quality sins. Also I've learned to maxime my damage potential even without uber gear. I can't say the same for my demon counterparts.b:chuckle

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You should watch what you say. Even in squad where we have a demon with the same dagger/refines, I normally end up being the primary tank AND dd because lets face it. Sage tends to produce better quality sins. Also I've learned to maxime my damage potential even without uber gear. I can't say the same for my demon counterparts.b:chuckle

lol no?

****tons of no brain scrub sins going sage for bandwagoning purposes

WannaBM - Archosaur

I skipped some of the debate and just go to the essence of the question:

You said 2.22 sage. Would become 2.50 with -int.

That is only some 12-13% more damaged as opposed to the vast 25% you gain when going from 4 to 5. On average 1 of your mods will be useless or almost useless and your other 2 mods will add 3% together or so. (think 2,5% for +19 stats, 0.7% for +crit, 0.5% for + Atlvl)
So your average int dagger will be 15-16% better than a dagger without any mods.

366 dmg max dmg these mods give you = 183 average dmg. At +10, the daggers damage will be 1400 and a bit average. add 200 from rings, and you get 1600 and a bit. 183 would now be 11 %.

So at +10, the average damage you when using base attack would be about 5% higher than now.

Just to provide you some numberical data to aid your decision making. Not going to make any suggestions as to wether to reroll or not.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lol no?

****tons of no brain scrub sins going sage for bandwagoning purposes

This may be true, but those sins still tend to learn more than spark+autoattack.

ShawtyStar - Raging Tide

These are my sins Daggers Sexy T2 Daggers took me only 1 roll from T1-T2 Just Like my bow Jaden Emperor's Defiancewhen I got tired of purging people with T2 Spirit BlackHole,0.10 Inters I decided to Roll a T3 bow finally for attack levels and Bam f:cute

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This may be true, but those sins still tend to learn more than spark+autoattack.

No they're not; they're Sages with level 10 skills playing Demon style

Salari - Raging Tide

ShawtyStar - Raging Tide wrote: »

These are my sins Daggers Sexy T2 Daggers took me only 1 roll from T1-T2 Just Like my bow Jaden Emperor's Defiancewhen I got tired of purging people with T2 Spirit BlackHole,0.10 Inters I decided to Roll a T3 bow finally for attack levels and Bam f:cute

b:victory

Nice rolls, I have 3 under my belt so far with dbl int a g15 and 2 g16's. I have been dying to roll a dbl int gof set, so i can do some real ingame comparisons.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No they're not; they're Sages with level 10 skills playing Demon style

I also take it these are farming alts? I exclude those. They disgust me.