How do you feel about this game being pay to win?

carlos2354

Quit a bit of time ago because everything in the game, you can just pay for and 'win'. Pay real money for FC, pay realy money for charms and oay realy money for the top R9 gear. Everything you need to win is basically in the cash shop and only those who use it ever gets to be one of the 'best' player. You have to pay atleast 1500 dollars just to get r9, with that money you could have bought 4 new gaming consoles or 30+ copies of new whole games. How do you feel about this?
Ofcourse there's the good ol' farming but jesus christ it takes a year to get r9 and it requires you to be on atleast 10 hours a day, and more hours just to have your catshop on. Compared to the fact that you can just pay money to instantly get gear without doing any work whatsoever which can be done in less than 5 mins.
Asides from guildies and friends, what else makes you stay in the game? What's stopping you from playing any real f2p out there that have better graphics and better combat?

Vennesetiid - Sanctuary

It's more than 1500 dollars. Gems and refines..gonna need to charge and then sell for coin to afford those. Or take the cheaper but longer way and farm and catshop.


I personally think.. PWI is too expensive.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

carlos2354 wrote: »

Quit a bit of time ago because everything in the game, you can just pay for and 'win'. Pay real money for FC, pay realy money for charms and oay realy money for the top R9 gear. Everything you need to win is basically in the cash shop and only those who use it ever gets to be one of the 'best' player. You have to pay atleast 1500 dollars just to get r9, with that money you could have bought 4 new gaming consoles or 30+ copies of new whole games. How do you feel about this?
Ofcourse there's the good ol' farming but jesus christ it takes a year to get r9 and it requires you to be on atleast 10 hours a day, and more hours just to have your catshop on. Compared to the fact that you can just pay money to instantly get gear without doing any work whatsoever which can be done in less than 5 mins.
Asides from guildies and friends, what else makes you stay in the game? What's stopping you from playing any real f2p out there that have better graphics and better combat?

>Real f2p
>MMO that is good
>Not pay to win

Sadly, that's not how almost every F2P MMO works.
If you pay real money for FC and/or charms, then well... obviously you are doing something terribly wrong.

Besides that, rule no. 1 about a "F2P" MMO:
If there's no one throwing their money at a "F2P" MMO, then don't expect the servers to be around for long.

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

Back when everything wasn't altered or nerfed you could farm stuff for nice money, now... I also started playing a new game which so far is no pay 2 win only cash shop items are purely cosmetic WHICH should be in all games not PWI`s example.

carlos2354

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Besides that, rule no. 1 about a "F2P" MMO:
If there's no one throwing their money at a "F2P" MMO, then don't expect the servers to be around for long.

I play a game that shall not be named. It is PURELY f2p and its thriving really great. This game has great graphics and great pixel toons. Everything that are in their cashshop are only cosmetics and costume. You can reach end game without paying a single cent and still be able to play with the top dogs. The only reason someone would use the cashshop is if they want costumes, additional character slots, appearance change, portable NPC's etc. Ofcourse it sells some things that you need to refine gears but those items are not heavily acquired through the shop. It is 100% accesible to farm ingame. Wether you spend money on this game or not, no one's ever going to notice.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

2 of the top richest person of my server are completely f2p players and have a net worth of more than $10,000+, and they do outclasses the heaviest cash shoppers on the server.

90% of the full s3r9 people i know, have spent only between $0 to $200 on the game.

It is pay to win, only for the people who are too lazy to merch/farm or have limited idea on opportunities to make coins, or squander coins on the most random stuff, or is just impatient. The sad part is that a good portion of the pwi server population falls in this category.

Toliman - Raging Tide

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2 of the top richest person of my server are completely f2p players and have a net worth of more than $10,000+, and they do outclasses the heaviest cash shoppers on the server.

90% of the full s3r9 people i know, have spent only between $0 to $200 on the game.

It is pay to win, only for the people who are too lazy to merch/farm or have limited idea on opportunities to make coins, or squander coins on the most random stuff, or is just impatient. The sad part is that a good portion of the pwi server population falls in this category.

If not and all of players would be able to play for free at same rate (merch/farm), then above "2 of the top richest person" would be same as other players.

They are "richest" just because other players paid real money for gold in this game.

JustAllEvil - Harshlands

That it's not pay to win, and that I wish the idiots would leave already who whine all day.

Toliman - Raging Tide

JustAllEvil - Harshlands wrote: »

That it's not pay to win, and that I wish the idiots would leave already who whine all day.

90% of servers' population ... can confirm, what you say or not ?

If not and minority of players are "winners", then you are wrong.

RankNine - Momaganon

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2 of the top richest person of my server are completely f2p players and have a net worth of more than $10,000+, and they do outclasses the heaviest cash shoppers on the server.

90% of the full s3r9 people i know, have spent only between $0 to $200 on the game.

It is pay to win, only for the people who are too lazy to merch/farm or have limited idea on opportunities to make coins, or squander coins on the most random stuff, or is just impatient. The sad part is that a good portion of the pwi server population falls in this category.

having multiple catshops is just as bad as botting

carlos2354

Wether you say that it is or not, this game is p2w. You can't deny it. The fact that only 2 people in your server out of everyone are the only ones who outclass heavy catshoppers is not such a good thing. 98 out of 100 people that are don't have the top gear and didn't pay for it exist because these so called 'ways' to get r9 is so very limited.

chilpod

I think it depends on who is playing and who let others do the work:

I personally like to play quests so R9 shouldn't be available for me for a very very long time, maybe never. Ofcourse there are others who like to be in squads all the time so they don't have to kill much. I think most of them eventually will pay for reputation and armor, even using real cash if they're short on coins.

I'm not feeling bad about this. PWI is just fun for me so it has to be for others too.

b:victory

Desdi - Sanctuary

There are ways and things to farm in the game that allows you to get good gear and at the very least compete with CSers but that requires knowledge of the game and the market, being able to take advantage of sales and knowing when and what to take advantage of, finding ways to sell things or farm things especially when they are first introduced (remember when badges used to be 1mil each? I sold two weapon manufacturing services and made 120mil in a day).

Of course, you would also need a couple of farming toons that are decently geared as well as "buff alts" so you can solo/duo instances (I often duo-farm with my game husband and we have a variety of toons we use for farming).

All that, is something that's not available for a new player unfortunately. Older players who are dedicated and usually are veterans to this game have these things available so they have an easier time taking advantage of new things when they come or simply have more experience on how things work here. *

* For example, I already had lvl11 skills (Amplify Damage mainly) when Nirvana was the thing. Using money from Nirvana I got R8 which allowed me to be accepted easily in Caster Nirvana (the next big thing) and further improve gear. When Warsong became the next big thing, I already had gear that allowed me to defend/run Warsong etc.


I have to disagree with getting gear in 5 minutes though. If you're talking about charging money, selling gold and buying a set of Nirvana gear then perhaps yes but that's not true for R9r3. Even if you charge the money and buy all the items you'd still need to farm the badges and get the molds. Then there are other things such as completing the cultivation (if person powerleved) and doing Morai to get their skills (no amount of coin will help you there).

Regardless of the money you use, there's still a level of grinding/farming required.

I do wish they had made some things more non-CS friendly. Whilst I support PWE in that they are a company and they want to make profit out of this plus the fact that CSers are what keep these servers free for the rest of us, I do agree that lately it's been a lot more CS heavy than before.

I still think it's possible to be F2P and I try to enjoy the game for what it is. Maybe one day it will become impossible to play as F2P but I'm fairly sure I'll have quit by then; not planning to play this game forever :P

Reliea - Sanctuary

I play PW because I enjoy the classes and gameplay.

You -can- get everything in game you want without paying 1 real cent. You can, in some cases because someone else payed, but someone else will always pay, it's their choice. But you can't do it instantly, and it will take effort and desire.

I know people who are farming their top-of-the-line gear from scratch, and I don't think anyone who bought their gear could be half as satisfied with their entire set as these people are just with 1 piece.

Partially I think a lot of this comes from the grief people have in PvP vs high-refined r9s and the like. If you remove PvP from the equation, you really need very little to do all the end-game things you want. Of course it sometimes depends on what class you play, but generally a skilled player can do most things with minimum level appropriate gear. G13-15 has only fallen in price over time and is totally reachable to farm from scratch or to buy straight up with coins made through farming. Even in non 2x times, you could probably farm gold armor, and buy enough cannies and raps to make a full set of g15 faster than most people farmed 1 piece of g15 prior to NW.
When you put PvP back into the equation, the minimum isn't nearly good enough, and then you get to the point where you either do have to buy your way up, OR invest a lot into farming/merchanting and playing the markets to get the things that will help you improve, but then it's a case of what you feel is worth your time and effort.

In the end, it's all a matter of perspective, and from mine, I can carry on quite nicely giving no damns regarding if or how much people choose to pay. I improve myself to my satisfaction at the rate I am capable of and compare myself to no one when it comes to gear.

Toliman - Raging Tide

Reliea - Sanctuary wrote: »

...
In the end, it's all a matter of perspective, and from mine, I can carry on quite nicely giving no damns regarding if or how much people choose to pay. I improve myself to my satisfaction at the rate I am capable of and compare myself to no one when it comes to gear.

Almost same I can say about my Wizard.

SHIMBERLY - Heavens Tear

rank/gear should never be in a cash shop it kinda like buying hacks from a website .

this micro management has leaked over to fps games also and it sucks.

Selak - Dreamweaver

After playing PC Single Player and MMORPGs for over 20 years.
I am still stuffed as to how you win a RPG, all I know is you can pay, grind or a combination of both to reach endgame levels and gear.
Then boredom from repetitive play sets in.
No win as far as I am concerned, just time killed doing something I personally enjoyed.
b:chuckle

maestro121

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2 of the top richest person of my server are completely f2p players and have a net worth of more than $10,000+, and they do outclasses the heaviest cash shoppers on the server.

THOSE are the two top richest peeps on your server ?

LOL Damn your server is poor.

On DW there is this one notorious CS'r who has comfortably spent in excess of $100,000 on the game (was the first to R9 +12, full JOSD all 8 toons on his account and also R9'd a number of guys toons in his faction for free just so that the faction would be competitive in TW). It's literally impossible for any merchant no matter how rich to compete with a guy willing to put that much real life money in the game.

As long as a MMO is willing to put OP gear directly in the CS, that's the classic definition of a P2W. Whether you can also farm it in the long run is irrelevant... you are competing with players who can do in 5 mins what it would take the "average" player months to a year to achieve.

Temptatio/V - Dreamweaver

maestro121 wrote: »

THOSE are the two top richest peeps on your server ?

LOL Damn your server is poor.

On DW there is this one notorious CS'r who has comfortably spent in excess of $100,000 on the game (was the first to R9 +12, full JOSD all 8 toons on his account and also R9'd a number of guys toons in his faction for free just so that the faction would be competitive in TW). It's literally impossible for any merchant no matter how rich to compete with a guy willing to put that much real life money in the game.

As long as a MMO is willing to put OP gear directly in the CS, that's the classic definition of a P2W. Whether you can also farm it in the long run is irrelevant... you are competing with players who can do in 5 mins what it would take the "average" player months to a year to achieve.

I'm guessing you not playing for a long long time since that person quite long time ago. Also there were several merchants on our server that had almost same stuff as him. But that's all ancient history and situation is different now. almost everyone has now r9 gear or g16 which is fully farmable gear. I'm not sure how you cant earn money in game but guessing you not even trying. At lower lvls you you dont need money tbh with free OP dreamchaser gear you get, and with farming some herbs and doing few quest you can get enough money to play very happily.

After reaching lvl 100 you get decent money from bh, cube which is also decent money, nw, tt, warsong, and events...Yes it wont make you have gear like person you referring to but you can play without warring to much.

I tried to play games you talking about where you get all for free and I quit all in 2 months because they are incredible boring and I dont see any challenge in that.

Colum - Raging Tide

I do not need cash shop to keep my toons funded.

WannaBM - Archosaur

I feel sad that this is the way gaming is going nowadays. Games used to be a measure of skill or perseverance or something like that. People dont want to pay a monthly fee so we get pay to win games.

That is a sad thing, but it is the game community that makes it so. If we all choose to pay a montly fee, or in f2p games we would not spend money when they are highly pay to win, reallity would be different.

That said, i also see the pay to win component exagerated grossly. The game is old, in every old game, the players that were there from the start have a huge advantage over new players. So they do in PWI, with or without spending money. In non pay to win games, the new players often cannot dream of catching up. In here it costs money.

And dont forget, it is only pay to win PvP. You get an excelent PvE game for free that is perfectly fine without paying a penny.

Unholly - Morai

Selak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

After playing PC Single Player and MMORPGs for over 20 years.
I am still stuffed as to how you win a RPG, all I know is you can pay, grind or a combination of both to reach endgame levels and gear.
Then boredom from repetitive play sets in.
No win as far as I am concerned, just time killed doing something I personally enjoyed.
b:chuckle

If you have completed 90% of the games content.
Had fun.
Got the best gear.
Become well known as a top PvPer.
Had your faction win TW.
Made friends.
Hit the highest level before anyone else. (First 105 on PWI)
Achived personal goals inside the game.

I would say if you can tick one of these off you have won/winning the game! Sounds like you are! ^_^

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

It is true that in order for a f2p game to maintain its servers/keep updates coming it undoubtedly needs a pay to play aspect. (Pwi has the boutique)

It does sucks that it seem like its nothing more than a pay to win game with how often they put the best stuff in game into the cash shop, but to be honest unless the laws tells them not to do it... I can see them continuing to do that, and really I can't blame them, and to be completely honest if I was in their shoes I too would be milking the game for as much money as possible for as long as possible. (sure it is debatable that what they are doing is short term income... but who really knows how long this game will be able to keep up the interest of people.)

I think that is one of the many reasons why they're just milking us for all they can while they can, as even they know eventually no matter how good of updates they 'make' people will eventually leave. People are fickle they can like you today, but tomorrow they wont go near you, that also applies to games, perhaps even more so than people... especially those who actually care for you. (Though games do have loyal 'player bases' that will stick through everything.)

BringinDeath - Archosaur

after what has just happened with PWI? no friggin way b:angry

JustAllEvil - Harshlands

carlos2354 wrote: »

Wether you say that it is or not, this game is p2w. You can't deny it. The fact that only 2 people in your server out of everyone are the only ones who outclass heavy catshoppers is not such a good thing. 98 out of 100 people that are don't have the top gear and didn't pay for it exist because these so called 'ways' to get r9 is so very limited.

Blablabla. I just did deny it, didn't I?

Nor did I say I don't cashshop myself, although anybody who plays rather than whining on forums would know that my gear isn't that OP, and I'm far from unbeatable.

Let's see...the probably *biggest* cashshopper on HL sits in sz if it's not TW, so the point is largely irrelevant there.

Considering I'm perfectly capable of killing people who outgear me by a lot, it more points to you should learn your class, get out of FC, and play.

But I'll leave you to your QQing....

Shparkles - Raging Tide

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2 of the top richest person of my server are completely f2p players and have a net worth of more than $10,000+, and they do outclasses the heaviest cash shoppers on the server.

90% of the full s3r9 people i know, have spent only between $0 to $200 on the game.

It is pay to win, only for the people who are too lazy to merch/farm or have limited idea on opportunities to make coins, or squander coins on the most random stuff, or is just impatient. The sad part is that a good portion of the pwi server population falls in this category.

b:pleased Thank you! This makes me happy. You have said it all. pay 2 win only for the lazy people. I like it

Vennesetiid - Sanctuary

I added up all the DQ's I've collected over time, and I have just under 1mil's worth, hah.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

I was too tempted to comment on these two things.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2 of the top richest person of my server are completely f2p players and have a net worth of more than $10,000+, and they do outclasses the heaviest cash shoppers on the server.

90% of the full s3r9 people i know, have spent only between $0 to $200 on the game.

It is pay to win, only for the people who are too lazy to merch/farm or have limited idea on opportunities to make coins, or squander coins on the most random stuff, or is just impatient. The sad part is that a good portion of the pwi server population falls in this category.

Merchanting, and farming take far longer to do than just swiping a cc... sure they worked hard for their money and they are more than fine spending their money on whatever they wish... still merching, and farming is different than 'paying to win'... p2w is far more instant. (at least in game it is) Still as annoying as a p2w game has been/is... I do still enjoy it here or I wouldn't be here still.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I feel sad that this is the way gaming is going nowadays. Games used to be a measure of skill or perseverance or something like that. People dont want to pay a monthly fee so we get pay to win games.

That is a sad thing, but it is the game community that makes it so. If we all choose to pay a montly fee, or in f2p games we would not spend money when they are highly pay to win, reallity would be different.

That said, i also see the pay to win component exagerated grossly. The game is old, in every old game, the players that were there from the start have a huge advantage over new players. So they do in PWI, with or without spending money. In non pay to win games, the new players often cannot dream of catching up. In here it costs money.

And dont forget, it is only pay to win PvP. You get an excelent PvE game for free that is perfectly fine without paying a penny.

I can think of a game that has pay to play servers that is actually doing quite well last I checked/seen... had more things open to the P2P players... but yea other than that I do agree with what else you said.

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

There are many other free non-pay-to-win MMORPG

....

I mean, only one, but i can't spell its name on the forum so you'll have to guess it.

carlos2354

You pay $1500+ dollars to get the top gear.
If you don't pay, you have to merch for over a YEAR, requires you to play very smart and put a lot more effort in the game compared to the cs'ers. If you refuse to, people call you lazy even though its obvious that that amount of work is considerably huge.
Spend 24/7 in the game<swipe a credit card
Tell me how this game is not pay to win

Mitachi - Dreamweaver

shparkles - Raging Tide wrote: »

b:pleased thank You! This Makes Me Happy. You Have Said It All. Pay 2 Win Only For The Lazy People. I Like It

+2