JoSD Or Deities?

TheUnderLord - Lost City

Exactly what the title says, when considering the shards for my R9 3rd set. It's obviously going to be a long time before I ever get them, considering I still need to get full +12 and farm my accessories/hat/cape. But I would still like to hear the opinions of endgame-gear sins on which shards are better overall.

Most of the PvP I see is in TW and NW, where my biggest issue is surviving 6-way-ganks long enough to kill someone, rather than not hitting hard enough, even considering my daggers are only +7 and unsharded. So does full JoSD build still do enough damage to kill other top-geared opponents, or do I have to shard full deities and stealth constantly to get in kills? Personally leaning towards full JoSD right now, someone tell me if I'm making a big mistake.

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

For PvP JoSD for PvE... Well deities seem delicious

ZooozOOo - Archosaur

depends n he way u play n think there is no hard n fast rule abt hving josd n atk lvl...

as far as pve goes well atk or def lvls doesn't matter much...
bt in pvp they do....
n my advice get ur dags+10 before getting shards what ever u get

Cantabrum - Archosaur

i wont botherwhit shards untill your armor / weapone 11/12 and ornaments about same then you can think of go glass cannon build<3 but dead ppl cant hit you b:dirty

Badkidimdone - Archosaur

Well considering assassins have CoTD already, I would say go JoSD.
Attack/Def levels diminish the higher they stack, and we have so much attack levels the deity would not be worth it. Well that's my opinion

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Assuming endgame sin with 150 atk levels with jones + cotd, 4 socket cape (matchless?) and 3 socket helmet you have 23 sockets for armor. That's 56 atk levels more. 206/150 = 37.3% more damage = not really that inconsiderable

On the other hand, endgame sin has ~47 with Omalley on, so 23 more jades = 46 more def levels = 103. 103/47 = ~119% gain, so yea

Very considerable survivability gain there

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Assuming endgame sin with 150 atk levels with jones + cotd, 4 socket cape (matchless?) and 3 socket helmet you have 23 sockets for armor. That's 56 atk levels more. 206/150 = 37.3% more damage = not really that inconsiderable

On the other hand, endgame sin has ~47 with Omalley on, so 23 more jades = 46 more def levels = 103. 103/47 = ~119% gain, so yea

Very considerable survivability gain there

I like the idea of extra umph, but sage ravaging slash can be abused for 10 atk lvs. I plan on doing 8 deities, 16 jades.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

10 atk levels = 155/145 (full jades, maximum gain) = a whopping 6.8% so lol no

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

10 atk levels = 155/145 (full jades, maximum gain) = a whopping 6.8% so lol no

6.8% damage is a big difference when a opponent gets low hp.

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear

Best option is to try one and you can always just convert JoSD into deities later if you dont like it.

JackieK - Harshlands

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

10 atk levels = 155/145 (full jades, maximum gain) = a whopping 6.8% so lol no

You laugh at that 6.8%, but that 6.8% could be the difference between 1 shotting someone or just insta ticking their charm

Mrvate - Heavens Tear

JackieK - Harshlands wrote: »

You laugh at that 6.8%, but that 6.8% could be the difference between 1 shotting someone or just insta ticking their charm

not that I really care either way of this conversation, but if 6.8% is the difference in a 1 shot. The fight is most likely lop sided enough that it really doesn't matter.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Mrvate - Heavens Tear wrote: »

not that I really care either way of this conversation, but if 6.8% is the difference in a 1 shot. The fight is most likely lop sided enough that it really doesn't matter.

Not really. I've 1 shot sins in full r9rr+10 with DoD's and pdef ornies due to some nicely placed amps, debuffs and a zerk crit over the course of 1 sec. It doesn't have to be lop sided, you just have to know how to turn it in your favor. Note I only had 3 peices of r9rr and the r9rr+10 dag when I did this.

Xinnz - Heavens Tear

Like Pwn said, try either and convert it if u dont like it. personally id like JoSD more. atm im sitting at 146 attack lvls and 54 def lvls. the damage i do is fairly high i would say, and i guess in most 1v1s, the ratio of damage i dish out doesnt come to par with the damage i can take, which means i have to make sure to stun lock an opponent as much as i can while mixing in damage combos, but still having reserve chi/genie energy for defense if a stun doesnt work, cos if they get out of it, i wont be able to tank them as much as i need to kill them first. this is extremely important too against purify weapon classes, cos once purify procs you need to tank them for a bit and wait for the anti stun to wear off before u can proceed with locking again.

if you go diety you would be in that same situation but damage output would be a bit higher. whereas going JoSD would allow you to have an easier time focusing on damage combos cos you dont constantly have to keep them in a stun lock as you can receive damage a bit better. an example say, against a wiz would be, instead of headhunting them, just tackling slash them and use a mag def charm to tank the damage will deal after they get paralyzed, then you can use that chi you saved up to subsea strike them(or powerdash but the anti crit skill is a pain) and proceed with a gain of 50 chi.

skaitavia

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Assuming endgame sin with 150 atk levels with jones + cotd, 4 socket cape (matchless?) and 3 socket helmet you have 23 sockets for armor. That's 56 atk levels more. 206/150 = 37.3% more damage = not really that inconsiderable

On the other hand, endgame sin has ~47 with Omalley on, so 23 more jades = 46 more def levels = 103. 103/47 = ~119% gain, so yea

Very considerable survivability gain there

To throw on top of this, the gain in damage percentage is actually lower, because 23 sockets at 2 attack levels per socket is only 46 extra attack levels, not 56.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Skaitavia wrote: »

To throw on top of this, the gain in damage percentage is actually lower, because 23 sockets at 2 attack levels per socket is only 46 extra attack levels, not 56.

The math is also wrong since it is assuming you would do 0 damage at 0 attack level.

It's usually best to pretend that your base attack level is 100. Adding 30 attack level to that for example would go from 100 to 130 which is 30% more.

With that in mind the ratio would be 296/250 = +18% damage. It would perform better against a josd opponent tho.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The math is also wrong since it is assuming you would do 0 damage at 0 attack level.

It's usually best to pretend that your base attack level is 100. Adding 30 attack level to that for example would go from 100 to 130 which is 30% more.

With that in mind the ratio would be 296/250 = +18% damage. It would perform better against a josd opponent tho.

Very much so, which are the types of opponents i have to kill in TW. Way too many cashers on DW.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The math is also wrong since it is assuming you would do 0 damage at 0 attack level.

It's usually best to pretend that your base attack level is 100. Adding 30 attack level to that for example would go from 100 to 130 which is 30% more.

With that in mind the ratio would be 296/250 = +18% damage. It would perform better against a josd opponent tho.

I was doing math based purely on amt. modified by atk levels. Thanks for the correction

Selbronne - Heavens Tear

I'd say go for JoSD. it's 24 sockets avalible (u can socket helemet to get 4 socket) so 48 mroe atack or def lvls. so basicly it's the diffrence of having 200/150+ atack lvls vs 100/50 def lvls (about dependign on blessigns and gear). I think that as the sin is squishy class they should go for jades to gain mroe def for group pk -->reason for jades

But... on the other hand i was always amazed by the idea of full r9s3 fully atack stones sharded b:laugh
cause at 200 + atack lvls even if u are squishy u prolly hit so high even of opponents with jades, that u prolly kill them quite quick.
So i will leave to u to decide. Think u need more atack power>Dieties. think u need more def>Jades. Aslo as ppl said earleir u can always swap them.
hope that helped

skaitavia

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The math is also wrong since it is assuming you would do 0 damage at 0 attack level.

It's usually best to pretend that your base attack level is 100. Adding 30 attack level to that for example would go from 100 to 130 which is 30% more.

With that in mind the ratio would be 296/250 = +18% damage. It would perform better against a josd opponent tho.

A bit off topic, but long time no see Asterelle! Hope you've been doing well!

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Why Nerfing Tidal is Stupid <~ 24 page Discussion on how OP tidal is. Its one of the most defensive moves in the game.

The reason I link that is because damage:def ratio is a little off in this game. An opponent with a +12 weapon can rarely kill an opponent with +12 armors by themselves. Its possible, but it typically involves a purge, amps, several crits in a row, and your opponent to just stand there and not interupt your combo or kite while they hit another def apoth. In other words, luck. Or a pretty dumb opponent.

A sin combining their evasion rate, their defenses, TP, and playing half intelligently becomes almost impossible to kill once fully endgame. And they can do this while still maintaining a 55% crit rate and 700 dex. The fully defensive built sin can still pull off 1 shots on +10 casters or have a chance at 2-4 shotting a +12 caster before they purify, or even hitting barbs for 20k per hit making them one of the only non caster classes that can really solo a 50k+ barb.

So my vote would be JoSD for pvp/r9t3. For PvE/aps setups go with Deities. If you're wearing your aps setup in PvP then the goal is obviously kill before you get killed and deities will help with that.

ZooozOOo - Archosaur

all i can say is with even dot on full rrr9 it very much possible to 1shot a +12josd aa or la...

Aasaf - Sanctuary

Truth about one shotting people with a crit zerk weapon

Person A: TT 90 gear, you will zerk crit that person for 50k+

Person B: R9 3rd cast +10~+12 armour, sharded, you will hit that person for the least amount of damage possible.

That is how pwi trolls us b:sad.

Adroit - Lost City

ZooozOOo - Archosaur wrote: »

all i can say is with even dot on full rrr9 it very much possible to 1shot a +12josd aa or la...

It is possible for any class to one shot literally any other class regardless of gear with the right debuffs. That said, in actual pvp it is extremely rare that a sin is able to one shot a maxed arcane (or really any maxed char for that matter).

For reference, when I'm just self buffed (pretty rare with full buff pots so obtainable now).. a maxed josd sin (near 800 dex) that triple sparks -> headhunt hits ~3.5k base (14k zc), which is clearly not a one shot (self buffed I'm sitting at 17.7k hp). Of course deities or more amps could improve that damage a bit, but there are also tons of defensive skills that can be used to counter as well. The chances that the sin is able to catch a self buffed/purged target while triple sparked and get a zc with amps while the target does nothing is not all that common.

Selbronne - Heavens Tear

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

It is possible for any class to one shot literally any other class regardless of gear with the right debuffs. That said, in actual pvp it is extremely rare that a sin is able to one shot a maxed arcane (or really any maxed char for that matter).

For reference, when I'm just self buffed (pretty rare with full buff pots so obtainable now).. a maxed josd sin (near 800 dex) that triple sparks -> headhunt hits ~3.5k base (14k zc), which is clearly not a one shot (self buffed I'm sitting at 17.7k hp). Of course deities or more amps could improve that damage a bit, but there are also tons of defensive skills that can be used to counter as well. The chances that the sin is able to catch a self buffed/purged target while triple sparked and get a zc with amps while the target does nothing is not all that common.

That's why i said earlier, i like the idea of full diety max JoSD sin has: 30 atack lvls from r9 armor+60 r9 weapon+35 sage CoD+15 from defensive blessing=about 140 atack lvls
ur def lvl is 112, so 140-112=28 atack lvls above ur def lvl (28%more dmg if i recall definition correctly)
let's try now for deity sin
samve values as above(140) + 48 more atack lvls from dieties + 15 more from atack lvls = 203 atack lvls
(i don't calculate the rings, necks and extra things that gives atakc/def lvls but think sin could get up to 220 atack lvls with them)
so 203-112=93 more atack lvls above ur def lvls(93% more dmg acording to the definition)
93-28=about 65 % diffrence in atack/def build on well def geared target. ofc u do it at the cost of a ton of def b:chuckle
still 3,5k dmg*1,65=5,7kdmg (25,4k zc with sage wolf emblem included)
but this post is only the theory, since we can use various of amps, as well as purge as well as our amps might get purify spelled on first hit so we get nothing... etc, etc...
still think that the general idea on how much diety sin whould hit is quite nice b:laugh
pls correct me if i am wrong with maths

Adroit - Lost City

Selbronne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's why i said earlier, i like the idea of full diety max JoSD sin has: 30 atack lvls from r9 armor+60 r9 weapon+35 sage CoD+15 from defensive blessing=about 140 atack lvls
ur def lvl is 112, so 140-112=28 atack lvls above ur def lvl (28%more dmg if i recall definition correctly)
let's try now for deity sin
samve values as above(140) + 48 more atack lvls from dieties + 15 more from atack lvls = 203 atack lvls
(i don't calculate the rings, necks and extra things that gives atakc/def lvls but think sin could get up to 220 atack lvls with them)
so 203-112=93 more atack lvls above ur def lvls(93% more dmg acording to the definition)
93-28=about 65 % diffrence in atack/def build on well def geared target. ofc u do it at the cost of a ton of def b:chuckle
still 3,5k dmg*1,65=5,7kdmg (25,4k zc with sage wolf emblem included)
but this post is only the theory, since we can use various of amps, as well as purge as well as our amps might get purify spelled on first hit so we get nothing... etc, etc...
still think that the general idea on how much diety sin whould hit is quite nice b:laugh
pls correct me if i am wrong with maths

Well you forgot blessing, even josd sins are over 170 atk levels, so if we assume 172 atk level for josd sin.. the attack levels would result in ~60% "more damage", and deity sins would be ~108% "more damage". This means the deity sin would hit me about 30% more than josd sins.

On the other hand, if we look at it the other way.. a josd sin is going to be sitting at around 100 def level (if in jones), and a deity would then be at ~52. Assuming I'm hitting them while in omalley blessing (120 atk level).. I'd get ~20% "extra damage" on josd sins and ~68% on deity. This translates to the deity sin taking about 40% more damage than the josd sin in this scenario. Full buffed josd sins that are undined take ~11k gush crits.. which would be 15-16k on deity sins.

It really depends on the situation though and the types of opponents that you are fighting, sometimes deity is more useful to kill those tanky targets.. sometimes you really couldn't stay alive long enough to kill anyone without josd.

Selbronne - Heavens Tear

^^i calculated blessings

Edit: i didn't calculate def diffrence, since this kind of sin goota be used just for one shot atempts/killing special targets. I base it on theory that dead target dosen't deal dmg. And yah the def lvl diff whould be about 70 then since full JoSD got like 100, and this one wil lhave like 30 ;p so overall it's 65% more atack at cost of -70% def ;p

Unholly - Morai

Defence. For. The. Win.

Xinnz - Heavens Tear

haha perfect for skill spamming right? :P

Unholly - Morai

Killer_Sin - Harshlands wrote: »

you guys are all stupid what are you thinking you have to put mana stones on your sins r9rr gear duh...dumbasses

LOL Noob uninstall! Full Amber to avoid wizard/psy 1 hit.

Okay not pissing about:
I havent looked in to it much recently but isnt Vit still viable? From what i remember of my Vit calcs were that when attack levels increased to a certain point over your defs (think it was like 70-80) then Vit stones provided more survival than jades did. With the introduction of Deity i would of thought this would put Vit stones more on par with Jades survival wise. At least in certain situations.

tldr: Vit stones OP?

Adroit - Lost City

Selbronne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

^^i calculated blessings

Edit: i didn't calculate def diffrence, since this kind of sin goota be used just for one shot atempts/killing special targets. I base it on theory that dead target dosen't deal dmg. And yah the def lvl diff whould be about 70 then since full JoSD got like 100, and this one wil lhave like 30 ;p so overall it's 65% more atack at cost of -70% def ;p

oh, well you're forgetting something. I hit 135 atk level in jones, and a sin can easily match that plus have chill on top. Your attack and defense percentages are way off too.