What is the MAX APS BASE (Read)
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Stopped reading after seeing that...
Lol, either you're new to pwi or just a like to argue nonsense. Did you just call me out and make people read a page of math because I said "about 1.5%" and then with your own calculations got 1.31% at 11 multipliers and 2.6% at 5.75 multipliers, both of which are exactly what I said "about 1.5%."
Simply put, when sparked the masteries make less difference so the difference is slightly less than 1.5% so sage doesn't matter as much. Unsparked, sage matters more and is slightly above 2%. Since we were talking about tanking bosses I used sparked damage and estimated ~10 multipliers. You told me I was wrong and not everyone will have 10 multipliers (which is why I said 'about')... and then your own math used 11.
So basically you called me wrong, did a page of math, then proved me right? Then on a completely off subject topic you told me I probably am wrong about magic multipliers too even though that has nothing to do with this thread and "explained" to me a very basic concept of PWI. Like I said, welcome to PWI. Should probably read the beginners section on etiquette before you start posting.DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »Yes demon WE is better during those 30 secs, but only when the demon crits, not when he zerks. Zerk and crit both scale on weapon damage not crit%, which makes sage have the higher spike damage (when factoring lv10 WE).
I don't know what you mean here. As far as I understand, zerk damage is calculated after the attack, crit, rage, and everything else and then doubled. Zerk damage is not scaled to your weapon damage.
If you are comparing only dagger devotion, sage does have the higher zerk crits because the slightly higher dph from mastery. If you compare using demon WE vs sage or lvl 10 WE then the demon WE comes out on top because 10-20% more rage damage will always be bigger than the small difference dagger devotion made.DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »As for Power Dash, wouldn't that make sage better? It basically means that you can focus on less crit and more attack damage since it caps you before a demon sin does. I'm having trouble seeing how Demon Power Dash could be better for damage since it gives 10% less crit than the sage version. It might seem silly to leave out WE in the discussion for that, but I'm talking about the skill Power Dash alone. Unless what you are saying is that the 10% crit is worthless after that point, is it? However even so, that still puts Sage Power Dash ahead, even if it's overkill. And if you don't have 55% crit rate, then it's even better than if you did. Or at least thats how I see it. As for my post it's more of speculation rather than me saying 'this is how it is'. I'm just pointing out things I notice, even if they seem worthless to others.
There were a ton of mistranslations when sins first arrived. Many have been changed but I think "increased critical attack rate" and "increased rage damage" still get mixed up in the skill descriptions. Both give increased crit rate and do not effect rage damage. If you have WE active though, that would somewhat balance any differences since 40% crit with 140% rage would be almost as valuable as 50% crit with 120% rage. (side note: This is another reason I prefer demon WE. The 30 seconds of focus is often best used when combined with things like mass debuffs or with PD. So the first 30 seconds are not as important as the cd 30 seconds anyways.)
What Skai was pointing out is if both sage and demon are reaching 95% crit rate (there is no rage damage effect to PD) because their base crit rate is 55% or higher than they're completely equal and demon wins when considering demon WE. You also get the immobilize effect. Prior to r9t3/endgame though sage is better.
I also saw you comment on only having crits. Yes, it definitely appears this way but I can tell you I used to channel cancel Glacial Spike like a mad man, which is a 100% crit rate for 5 seconds. Even "100% crit rate" had the occasional non crits because it is capped.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »I compared to the two at lv10 WE because it's not common for either culti to have lv11 on my server. Sage WE I have never seen on DW actually.
I see that I typed that incorrectly. I meant lv10 for both sins. Yes demon WE is better during those 30 secs, but only when the demon crits, not when he zerks. Zerk and crit both scale on weapon damage not crit%, which makes sage have the higher spike damage (when factoring lv10 WE). In that case I'm talking about the average r9.3 sin, WE seems to be a rare book for both culti's.
As for Power Dash, wouldn't that make sage better? It basically means that you can focus on less crit and more attack damage since it caps you before a demon sin does. I'm having trouble seeing how Demon Power Dash could be better for damage since it gives 10% less crit than the sage version. It might seem silly to leave out WE in the discussion for that, but I'm talking about the skill Power Dash alone. Unless what you are saying is that the 10% crit is worthless after that point, is it? However even so, that still puts Sage Power Dash ahead, even if it's overkill. And if you don't have 55% crit rate, then it's even better than if you did. Or at least thats how I see it. As for my post it's more of speculation rather than me saying 'this is how it is'. I'm just pointing out things I notice, even if they seem worthless to others.
Yes, you're correct on the fact that IF both cultivations only have level 10 WE, which is rarely the case, then Sage sins will have a higher spike damage coverage than Demons. Rare book or not, that's not a factor you need to count in.
And for Powerdash, at end-game with R9r2, as I stated in my post, sins will almost always have 55%+ crit rate, just because of their gear. At that point, Demon PD will come out on top because of the extra effect of immobilization, because think about it.
Demon sin at 55%+ crit rate -> Demon Powerdash -> 95% crit rate for 8 seconds plus a 30% chance to immob target for 3 seconds
Sage sin at 55%+ crit rate -> Sage Powerdash -> 95% crit rate for 8 seconds.
Crit rate is capped at 95% regardless, so at end-game, where sins are guaranteed a 55%+ crit rate, demon PD will come out on top. Otherwise, sage is due to the extra 10% crit rate.
Just don't forget that Powerdash's "+40% rage damage" is translated incorrectly, and it actually is "+40% crit rate".[SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony![/SIGPIC]
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Yes, you're correct on the fact that IF both cultivations only have level 10 WE, which is rarely the case, then Sage sins will have a higher spike damage coverage than Demons. Rare book or not, that's not a factor you need to count in.
And for Powerdash, at end-game with R9r2, as I stated in my post, sins will almost always have 55%+ crit rate, just because of their gear. At that point, Demon PD will come out on top because of the extra effect of immobilization, because think about it.
Demon sin at 55%+ crit rate -> Demon Powerdash -> 95% crit rate for 8 seconds plus a 30% chance to immob target for 3 seconds
Sage sin at 55%+ crit rate -> Sage Powerdash -> 95% crit rate for 8 seconds.
Crit rate is capped at 95% regardless, so at end-game, where sins are guaranteed a 55%+ crit rate, demon PD will come out on top. Otherwise, sage is due to the extra 10% crit rate.
Just don't forget that Powerdash's "+40% rage damage" is translated incorrectly, and it actually is "+40% crit rate".
I see what you are saying. I dont have crit rings. Sage powerdash is also why I won't put them on, I have a ring with 212 attack apart from the r9 ring (G13 Spring wind's mercy at +7), which gives me a lot of damage which allows me to make use of the 10% extra crit, 47% crit rate without it. I'm guessing it evens out a bit if the sage uses sage tackling slash before hand. 1 sec less immobolize, but the damages b:dirty. They should fix that skill description, but I'm guessing sins would only be hated more if they did XD.0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Lol, either you're new to pwi or just a like to argue nonsense. Did you just call me out and make people read a page of math because I said "about 1.5%" and then with your own calculations got 1.31% at 11 multipliers and 2.6% at 5.75 multipliers, both of which are exactly what I said "about 1.5%."
Simply put, when sparked the masteries make less difference so the difference is slightly less than 1.5% so sage doesn't matter as much. Unsparked, sage matters more and is slightly above 2%. Since we were talking about tanking bosses I used sparked damage and estimated ~10 multipliers. You told me I was wrong and not everyone will have 10 multipliers (which is why I said 'about')... and then your own math used 11.
So basically you called me wrong, did a page of math, then proved me right? Then on a completely off subject topic you told me I probably am wrong about magic multipliers too even though that has nothing to do with this thread and "explained" to me a very basic concept of PWI. Like I said, welcome to PWI. Should probably read the beginners section on etiquette before you start posting.
I
I think you need to take your own advice and stop being so condescending and arrogant to be frank.
They were clearing up the maths that they you were throwing around like a "wrecking baaaaall" b:pleased
Thanks jhpwione, for taking the time to work that out. I found it confusing but useful
I cant comment on this anymore as it has descended into a discussion 'bout rrr9 crit rate
._.0 -
SinfulLia - Archosaur wrote: »I think you need to take your own advice and stop being so condescending and arrogant to be frank.
They were clearing up the maths that they you were throwing around like a "wrecking baaaaall" b:pleased
Thanks jhpwione, for taking the time to work that out. I found it confusing but useful
I cant comment on this anymore as it has descended into a discussion 'bout rrr9 crit rate
._.
b:surrendersorry0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »b:surrendersorry
Nah, she was talking to me then thanked the troll for being rude.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Nah, she was talking to me then thanked the troll for being rude.
Oh so it's rude when you get corrected, and proved wrong? Alrighty then b:chuckle0 -
SinfulLia - Archosaur wrote: »Oh so it's rude when you get corrected, and proved wrong? Alrighty then b:chuckle
I didnt bother responding earlier to this but the fact is its impossible to make general dph difference between cultis due how gear(statpoints) affect dph of culti paths differently, least when comparing relative difference. As Sakubatou said, there was page of math, which ultimately proved his numbers accurate enough.__Sami__ - Archer - 105/103/102 - mypers.pw/1.8/#132088 - Active
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Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Nah, she was talking to me then thanked the troll for being rude.
I was the one who shifted it into a talk about r9rr crit rate etc.b:surrender0 -
I just want to ask 1 question before I say anything about the discussion you all are talking about...
What do you all think is the hardest hitting (charm bypass, w/e you wanna call it) skill a sin currently possesess?Soon™
Well, maybe later, semi-retired.0 -
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »What do you all think is the hardest hitting (charm bypass, w/e you wanna call it) skill a sin currently possesess?
Earthen Rift is the hardest hitting skill. With lower grade/refine weapons the +damage add in the skill matters more so Slipstream Strike will be your best dd, but once your weapon is well refined the +400-430% weapon damage of ER wins. Sidenote: for dph spam though Earthen rift's 2.5 second cast time isn't as effective as 2 faster channeling skills. Side-Sidenote: I actually prefer a different charm jump combo but I'll keep that quiet. Lets just say ranged skills don't quit hit when you cast them.SinfulLia - Archosaur wrote: »Oh so it's rude when you get corrected, and proved wrong? Alrighty then b:chuckle
That's just the thing, he didn't prove me wrong, lol. He started out with an insulting statement "stopped reading after seeing that" and then wrote a page of math to prove me right. I said the 15% weapon mastery is "about 1.5%" because everyone's gear/stats might be different. After insulting me and calling my 1.5% wrong he did a page of math and got 1.3-2.6% depending on gear, sparks, etc... 1.5% was a perfectly accurate assumption.
He then took it a step farther to go off subject and say and tell me what he though I didn't know about caster mutlipliers, which I have no idea why he even brought up. Your defense of this poster alt makers me assume its probably yours.
Forums are already wading in trolls. We don't need people muddying up issues by calling accurate information wrong and starting needless arguments just to confuse people when they're just restating what the original person said.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Side-Sidenote: I actually prefer a different charm jump combo but I'll keep that quiet. Lets just say ranged skills don't quit hit when you cast them.
Toxic torrent delays damage like Divine Pyrogram
Condensed thorn less so
Chain either two of the above with a fast skill like Twin Strike or Knife Throw, the damage values will combine and maybe bypass
Your secrecy is invalid0 -
Toxic torrent delays damage like Divine Pyrogram
Condensed thorn less so
Chain either two of the above with a fast skill like Twin Strike or Knife Throw, the damage values will combine and maybe bypass
Your secrecy is invalid
Since you are one of the "big shot" sin people are drooling over, along with ZSW, same question to the both of you;
Hardest hitting, aoe or single target, (using chi or not, level 11) sin skill is what?Soon™
Well, maybe later, semi-retired.0 -
the hardest aoe sin is earthen rift:400% damage for demon 430% for sage isDEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »Since you are one of the "big shot" sin people are drooling over, along with ZSW, same question to the both of you;
Hardest hitting, aoe or single target, (using chi or not, level 11) sin skill is what?
Detonate the ground beneath the enemy. Deals base Physical damage, plus
400% weapon damage to all enemy units within 8 meters.
The additional damage is increased by 430%.
Required Spiritual Cultivation Master of Discord
Detonate the ground under the enemy. Deals base Physical damage, plus
400% weapon damage to all enemy units within 8 meters.
Attack range is increased by 2 more meters.0 -
I say the maximum base aps for sins WITH DAGGERS is 4.0.
Because having the last 0.05 interval to reach the 5.0 base is virtually impossible.[S.E.V.C.H.E.N.K.O]
Synthetic Electronic Variant Calibrated for Hazardous Exploration, Nullification and Kamikaze Observation[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »Since you are one of the "big shot" sin people are drooling over, along with ZSW, same question to the both of you;
Hardest hitting, aoe or single target, (using chi or not, level 11) sin skill is what?
The hardest hitting skill on the sin's arsenal is the Head Hunt Lv 11.
The second hardest hitting skill is the lv 11 Throatcut
The third is the Lv 11 Slipstream Strike
The fourth hardest hitting skill is the Sage Earthen Rift
The fifth hardest hitting is the Lv 11 Rib Strike
But my favorite finisher is Rising Dragon strike for it will NEVER miss x)
Correct me wherever im wrong idgaf b:bye[S.E.V.C.H.E.N.K.O]
Synthetic Electronic Variant Calibrated for Hazardous Exploration, Nullification and Kamikaze Observation[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »I say the maximum base aps for sins WITH DAGGERS is 4.0.
Because having the last 0.05 interval to reach the 5.0 base is virtually impossible.
See below. It is possible, but just very rare.This. Reasonably you can get 2x -int on R8r chest, and 1x -int on R8r boots, and with R8r legs you'll have one more -int on top of the regular APS set's -interval. That'll put you at one more -int over 5.0 base, but it's capped at 5.0
This is all assuming you have triple -int daggers. If you want to calculate the almost impossible, then you can do 3x -int on both chest and boots of R8r, which will put you at 4 ticks of interval above 5.0 base, which means you'll be 5.0 base with Demon CotD on.
With 5.0 base, I'm 2.86 with Demon chill on, so even with 3 more intervals, that'll put me at 5.0 base. But the chance of that happening are slim to none.
This is what I'm basing it off of. And this is with Demon chill on.
As for the hardest hitting skill, Sage ER is, only if the dagger is highly refined. But it's very situational, because of its casting time. I personally don't use it anymore, just because of how long it takes before another action can be made.[SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony![/SIGPIC]
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Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »The hardest hitting skill on the sin's arsenal is the Head Hunt Lv 11.
The second hardest hitting skill is the lv 11 Throatcut
The third is the Lv 11 Slipstream Strike
The fourth hardest hitting skill is the Sage Earthen Rift
The fifth hardest hitting is the Lv 11 Rib Strike
But my favorite finisher is Rising Dragon strike for it will NEVER miss x)
Correct me wherever im wrong idgaf b:bye
Depends on weapon since ER's extra damage is entirely visa basedChannels
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