Sage Magic Shell (-20%chan): worthless?

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

So my cleric hit 89 and since he's my spoiled toon (tt80 goldb:shocked) got him sage magic shell and vanguard spirit. While I loove the vanguard spirit (and squads are already drooling over it), in retrospective magic shell seems pretty useless.

At 1.5sec cost to cast (even if you are a chan freak that won't help, it will drop to like 1.25sec), you need to cast 7.5sec worth of channeling skills (even more if you have lots of chan); given that our longest skill is revive at 6sec chan you can't fulfill it with just one skill.

If you cast 3 streams you break even; will take 9sec +buff = 10.5sec which is the duration without the buff. Revive+stream will actually get some benefit, or revive+IH or perhaps BB+IH; but all these uses seem extremely situational and if 0.2% chan is a game changer I'd rather use a zooming thunder and be safe.

Perhaps if you can predict an aoe you can cast in beforehand and then a chromatic but that's hardly a awesome move since you are reducing the tank's heals right before the aoe and, assuming that you wont get 2 aoes (or a dot aoe), it's not like the squad cant wait.

Maybe to buff between head rounds? XD

Any other ideas or something I'm missing? Would love to rationalise my 6m lossb:chuckle

Adroit - Lost City

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So my cleric hit 89 and since he's my spoiled toon (tt80 goldb:shocked) got him sage magic shell and vanguard spirit. While I loove the vanguard spirit (and squads are already drooling over it), in retrospective magic shell seems pretty useless.

At 1.5sec cost to cast (even if you are a chan freak that won't help, it will drop to like 1.25sec), you need to cast 7.5sec worth of channeling skills (even more if you have lots of chan); given that our longest skill is revive at 6sec chan you can't fulfill it with just one skill.

If you cast 3 streams you break even; will take 9sec +buff = 10.5sec which is the duration without the buff. Revive+stream will actually get some benefit, or revive+IH or perhaps BB+IH; but all these uses seem extremely situational and if 0.2% chan is a game changer I'd rather use a zooming thunder and be safe.

Perhaps if you can predict an aoe you can cast in beforehand and then a chromatic but that's hardly a awesome move since you are reducing the tank's heals right before the aoe and, assuming that you wont get 2 aoes (or a dot aoe), it's not like the squad cant wait.

Maybe to buff between head rounds? XD

Any other ideas or something I'm missing? Would love to rationalise my 6m lossb:chuckle

I find it useful on my alt ep, there are many cases where I sog/sleep people where I'm trying to work in all kinds of stuff before they wake up but have a spare moment between cds where a quick magic shell makes perfect sense (gives a little chi and speeds up my next round of debuffs.. and I have nothing better to use). Also good just before a triple spark, or even after a purge when you rebuff yourself.. getting that little extra -chan certainly can't hurt. Can also use to help squadmates, nice for wizzies especially.. all kinds of uses. I don't think you wasted the few mil at all.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Pretty sure someone may have mentioned something about this in the past. IIRC it was to do with PvP and increasing chi gain. Or perhaps fitting in skills between SoG time.

I'm sure any wizzies in the squad would love it. b:pleased

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I find it useful on my alt ep, there are many cases where I sog/sleep people where I'm trying to work in all kinds of stuff before they wake up but have a spare moment between cds where a quick magic shell makes perfect sense (gives a little chi and speeds up my next round of debuffs.. and I have nothing better to use). Also good just before a triple spark, or even after a purge when you rebuff yourself.. getting that little extra -chan certainly can't hurt. Can also use to help squadmates, nice for wizzies especially.. all kinds of uses. I don't think you wasted the few mil at all.

Unrelated to your post but grats on the new improved siggy! b:dirty

Adroit - Lost City

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Unrelated to your post but grats on the new improved siggy! b:dirty

ty b:cute

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

our longest skill is revive at 6sec chan you can't fulfill it with just one skill.

I love you, seriously, all clerics call it ress and it's annoying because resurrect is actually the mystic skill, not the cleric skill.

On my sage cleric when I'm in a squad I usually use sage Magic Shell before I revive someone. If I'm healing (not in BB) I don't bother using it cause it would be too much job to constantly click on me than switch to the target to heal, but it can be use on sage casters when they 3 spark.

I use it mainly when I'm questing (OHT/Morai/GBQ), I Magic shell->Great Cyclone->Wield Thunder->Great Cyclone->Plume Shot...than do Magic shell again when it's off. Pretty much like I use demon Spirit's Gift on my demon cleric, I use it than DD, when it's gone I do it again.

So I use it to revive (mostly in TW) and while questing, I personally don't regret getting it. (I regret more buying sage Revive 20m, but not Magic Shell xD)

Eoria - Harshlands

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

IIRC it was to do with PvP and increasing chi gain.

Probably refering to demon vanguard/magic shell. Both are 25% chance to give 25 chi to whoever it's casted on.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Probably refering to demon vanguard/magic shell. Both are 25% chance to give 25 chi to whoever it's casted on.

Nope, definitely from a sage cleric. May have been Aeliah. The demon variants probably arent as useful in PvP to gain chi, due to low chance and not being a useful by product as you wouldnt ordinarily spam cast those in PvP? Or does one.

But I do always tell my in game demon wife to gimme chi in instances b:thanks

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I've always considered it as a support skill. If you have other casters in squad and you don't want aggro then focus more on debuffing the boss and Magic Shelling them.

I've also seen sage cleric's use it as part of their sleep->wreck combo in pvp. Sleep->UVD-> stack arrays->Magic Shackle-> Mark of weakness->normal form->debuff->magic shell-> tempest/wield thunder. That sort of thing.

As to the revive/ressurect thing, it wasn't an issue until mystics came around. Then even I tried switching my lingo but I kept wanting to call revive "rev" and that wasn't working in squads, lol.

Adroit - Lost City

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've also seen sage cleric's use it as part of their sleep->wreck combo in pvp. Sleep->UVD-> stack arrays->Magic Shackle-> Mark of weakness->normal form->debuff->magic shell-> tempest/wield thunder. That sort of thing.

Why go back to normal form?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Why go back to normal form?

Defense in case that combo doesn't kill them. Hard to switch back once they're unslept.

tweakz

There was an argument posed about demon revive being better than sage because of the less channel time. My counter was that Sage could use the magic shell and revive + get them healed and buffed faster. For PvE: the distance comes in real handy and can save a lot of time on it's own.

Back when everyone was glitching Snakefist: it could cut a couple minutes off the wait.

With Spirit's Gift; it makes for quicker free chi.

Much of it's use is circumstantial. Some use it in Morai, but for me those mobs are 1-2 hits now; so no longer worth it. When there's a better mag dd it can help them, but it can also interfere with their macros and timings (Helps if you know their class).

It's not a spam skill, but it does have utility and may find more use in the future.

Adroit - Lost City

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Defense in case that combo doesn't kill them. Hard to switch back once they're unslept.

UV mode has plenty of defense.. the only skills you don't have access to are squad buffs and the squad heals (heals that can help someone else). You can still heal yourself with both auras + elven boon, and you get pious blessing which is fantastic. On top of that you get a slight hp and matk boost, and continue to have access to all of the amazing UV atk skills. The only time I really go into normal mode on my ep is when its group pvp and I am playing more a support role, or if I don't have a target (i.e., fighting a sin that stealths, jump back to normal and spam heal myself).. or if I need to build chi and have no intention of attacking/going for the kill. I think it'd be a mistake to jump out of UV mode before a kill attempt.

Oliiander - Lost City

I find Sage Magic Shell to be quite useful. I tend to use it before/during a pull white waiting for Holy path so I can cast BB just that little bit faster. Also as mentioned, Revive, being a long, pain-in-the-neck skill, the extra channelling boost definitely helps, using before running into to drop a tempest, etc.

Not to mention, other casters usually enjoy casting a little faster, unless they have perfectly timed combos. In which case. . .f:shame

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Magic shell is one of my most used skills. Even if you don't fit in an extra skill, you get the extra chi from magic shell itself. When whittling an opponent's hp to half, you always always use magic shell before starting the combo that you'll use to attempt to kill them with, so you have a better chance of beating charm tick.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

UV mode has plenty of defense..

Agreed, but you also need to have a decently large hp pool to tank primarily with a charm. imo the better your hp/defenses are the more time you'll spend in UV during pk, the worse they are the more you'll rely on spam healing between seals to prevent death between charm ticks.

Adroit - Lost City

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Agreed, but you also need to have a decently large hp pool to tank primarily with a charm. imo the better your hp/defenses are the more time you'll spend in UV during pk, the worse they are the more you'll rely on spam healing between seals to prevent death between charm ticks.

You don't need to tank primarily with a charm.. you have 3 different spammable heals in UV mode. UV mode has several amazing offensive skills and essentially equal (if not better) self defense skills.. the only things it is really missing is the ability to heal your teammates/aoe buff/revive them. Basically normal mode = support, UV mode = DD.

Ahira - Lost City

Not got bored of cleric yet adroit? b:chuckle

I thought you stopped playing pwi because I hadnt seen you in ages and ages (apart from when we said hi the other day).

Oh and you make it sound like you've been in so much pvp recently- I havent seen anything in months and i'm back to playing poo again! b:cold

Adroit - Lost City

Ahira - Lost City wrote: »

Not got bored of cleric yet adroit? b:chuckle

I thought you stopped playing pwi because I hadnt seen you in ages and ages (apart from when we said hi the other day).

Oh and you make it sound like you've been in so much pvp recently- I havent seen anything in months and i'm back to playing poo again! b:cold

haha cleric is fun, and we are just different time zones. I didn't mean to make it sound like there has been a lot of pvp recently, because there hasn't been. Game is poo

Desdi - Sanctuary

It's mostly been covered I guess but yeah, there's plenty of uses for Sage Magic Shell for both self use and support. I find it pretty useful, especially with the Magic Shell + Revive combination.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

thanks for the responses everyone!

so I'm starting to view magic shell as a "time vault": you put time when you can afford it and get it back immediately afterwards (+extra chi) hopefully when you can better utilise it. pretty cool mechanic!

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

UV mode is safer in many many cases than healing mode, because I have pious blessing hotkeyed, and anytime I get purged or things are uncertain, I pop that and I'm assured of survival.

Clergywoman - Raging Tide

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Why go back to normal form?

chi management.
sage clerics (unlike demon) are chi-cripples. that is why after a cc combo many switch back to normal mode; to regain chi. yet another sleep and sog, demon chi drain accompanied by evil chi draining genie from your opponent and you have none left. and a sage cleric without chi is a dead cleric. spamming heals is our natural way to get chi, the heal becomes just a nice side-effect. ;D

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

If I'm healing (not in BB) I don't bother using it cause it would be too much job to constantly click on me than switch to the target to heal

that is yet another designflaw (i stopped counting at 27182): there is no fast way to switch from friendly target to you and back to the friendly target..

generally in pvp it is a very good skill to increase the chi-gain and of course to squeeze one more skill into your combos.

in pve i use for afk-dd macros and the already mentioned faster revive (with decnt gear no one sould really die in pve :P ). so if you use your alt inv pve only you don't really need it, imho.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Clergywoman - Raging Tide wrote: »

that is yet another designflaw (i stopped counting at 27182): there is no fast way to switch from friendly target to you and back to the friendly target..

in theory you could use the squad macros but with no squad member re-arranging it is still quite bad

Mitachi - Dreamweaver

i myself find it to be quite useful but thats cause i only got 9% channeling :P

btw nab your GST's are too cheap you making me lose money < the sale is over b:angry

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Mitachi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i myself find it to be quite useful but thats cause i only got 9% channeling :P

btw nab your GST's are too cheap you making me lose money < the sale is over b:angry

pretty sure I have less than that :B probably 0%

wait what? b:shocked spies! o:

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Clergywoman - Raging Tide wrote: »

that is yet another designflaw (i stopped counting at 27182): there is no fast way to switch from friendly target to you and back to the friendly target..

For me it's pretty much like expel, by now it should be a self-buff without need to target ourselves.

Adroit - Lost City

Clergywoman - Raging Tide wrote: »

chi management.
sage clerics (unlike demon) are chi-cripples. that is why after a cc combo many switch back to normal mode; to regain chi. yet another sleep and sog, demon chi drain accompanied by evil chi draining genie from your opponent and you have none left. and a sage cleric without chi is a dead cleric. spamming heals is our natural way to get chi, the heal becomes just a nice side-effect. ;D

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

... The only time I really go into normal mode on my ep is when... or if I need to build chi and have no intention of attacking/going for the kill.

Yes, if you need to build chi it often makes sense to go back to human form (as I've already mentioned).. however it makes no sense at all to switch mid kill attempt.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Clergywoman - Raging Tide wrote: »

chi management.
sage clerics (unlike demon) are chi-cripples. that is why after a cc combo many switch back to normal mode; to regain chi. yet another sleep and sog, demon chi drain accompanied by evil chi draining genie from your opponent and you have none left. and a sage cleric without chi is a dead cleric. spamming heals is our natural way to get chi, the heal becomes just a nice side-effect. ;D

that is yet another designflaw (i stopped counting at 27182): there is no fast way to switch from friendly target to you and back to the friendly target..

generally in pvp it is a very good skill to increase the chi-gain and of course to squeeze one more skill into your combos.

in pve i use for afk-dd macros and the already mentioned faster revive (with decnt gear no one sould really die in pve :P ). so if you use your alt inv pve only you don't really need it, imho.

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Wield thunder is an average of 30 chi per use (15 with no proc, 45 with, 50% chance to proc.). It is easy to keep chi up in UVD with wield thunder spam. Every time I SoG an enemy, one of the first skills I use is wield thunder, and then, sometimes I use it one more time before SoG runs out. Can also do excessive healing debuff spam to get chi back up. Watch any of my more recent videos to see how easy it is for me to stay above 3 sparks.

Edit: and related to this discussion, magic shell is what lets me use wield thunder fast enough to be worth it.

Clergywoman - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

ok ok ok, i just saw the vid where you fought barb and bm. and you had almost 1 spark through the entire fight. i was quite amazed and almost shocked at first!
but sadly the credit belongs to the bm and barb. only one is demon, so just one 'Mo Zun's Taunt', none of them used 'Virulent Poison', 'Mantle Ripple of Death', nor the most evil of them 'Dissolve' (sadly barb and bm exclusive). they did not touch your chi. you compensated 'Mo Zun's Taunt' with 'Master Li's Technique' that is all, and yet barely stayed at 100 chi. if i fight 'Man' e.g. and start with full sparks and make the mistake of letting him anywhere near me, then i am basically without chi before i can even say "i hope he won't purge me on first hit".
sure, i agree that for most opponents we can stay in uv mode all day long without any chi problems at all. but the second you encounter someone that is skilled and additionally goes after your chi management, then uv mode turns into a deadly trap for sage clerics! not being able to change gear/blessing in uv mode makes it even worse.

p.s.
thx for the reminder of your youtube channel, will try to watch em all!

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Clergywoman - Raging Tide wrote: »

ok ok ok, i just saw the vid where you fought barb and bm. and you had almost 1 spark through the entire fight. i was quite amazed and almost shocked at first!
but sadly the credit belongs to the bm and barb. only one is demon, so just one 'Mo Zun's Taunt', none of them used 'Virulent Poison', 'Mantle Ripple of Death', nor the most evil of them 'Dissolve' (sadly barb and bm exclusive). they did not touch your chi. you compensated 'Mo Zun's Taunt' with 'Master Li's Technique' that is all, and yet barely stayed at 100 chi. if i fight 'Man' e.g. and start with full sparks and make the mistake of letting him anywhere near me, then i am basically without chi before i can even say "i hope he won't purge me on first hit".
sure, i agree that for most opponents we can stay in uv mode all day long without any chi problems at all. but the second you encounter someone that is skilled and additionally goes after your chi management, then uv mode turns into a deadly trap for sage clerics! not being able to change gear/blessing in uv mode makes it even worse.

p.s.
thx for the reminder of your youtube channel, will try to watch em all!

You are absolutely right about the chi drain. I should qualify that: if you are in a 1vs1 and you control what the opponent does most of the time (done right they hardly ever touch you if they are melee), they won't get many chances to drain your chi. Anytime I use seal of the gods, I try to get most if not all of the 1 spark back inside of 15 seconds, as well as debuffing the target into oblivion. In a group situation like the 2vs1 you referenced, I had to let the bm do as he liked part of the the time, and given how much more frequently than normal I had to spam defensive skills, I needed to switch to cloud eruption genie. Other than extenuating circumstances like that, though, I find myself above 2 sparks under *most* circumstances.

The nice thing about being a cleric is we can negate one of their chi drains, which is that long lasting debuff; we can instantly purify that before it drains roughly 75 chi. The other nice thing is the long lasting sleeps and immobilizes that let us have lots of time to build it back up while also getting the enemy into a dangerous spot. I know demon clerics can get chi back fairly fast with their self buffs (25% chance at 25 chi is it? 5 chi 75% of time and 30 chi 25% of time is average of... 11.25 chi? Is the chi gain 30 (5+25) or only 25? This would make difference) but this doesn't... DO anything to the enemy. So, yes, you can get your chi, but if the opponent's hp isn't closer to half, or there isn't a full stack of healing debuffs, or he doesn't have magic and physical defense debuff and magical shackles, there isn't much point; you wasted the 1 spark of seal of the gods, to gain back 1 spark. A waste because, sure you get your genie and apoth back, but so does he. Net gain zero. Thats what I like to think anyways

If my chi is really being drained so heavily though, one has to think they are using up most of their genie energy to do so. If I've left my genie untouched, I'll be inclined to use a white tea. In fact, I use white tea quite a bit. I'm pretty good about trading their entire genie for 2 whole sparks. As long as belief is there, I'm usually quite safe. Belief > pious blessing, or belief > plume shell, are standard.