APS-HA-Veno

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721
edited August 2013 in Venomancer
Kitty came to think about veno going APS along with HA as magic sword has same APS as intless daggers. Kitty ish a HA-veno atm and noticed that her p. attack ish about same as sins tend to have with similar weapon and thus Kitty might make/get APS-gear set after she's done with getting her T3-HA and AA sets(after reaching 100, of course lol). Kitty would end up as 2.22APS veno with Pan Gu-tome(2.0APS without).

Kitty made a calc on how it would look like after refining to +10 and sharding with lvl 9 citrines with Kitty's lvl 100 stats:

http://pwcalc.com/c41d0ecc55863bd3

9 extra str on cape as PW calc doesn't have necklace engraves yet, showing sparked stats when opening link.

How do fellow venos think, might it be working build?f:stare
Post edited by Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721 on
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Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)
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Comments

  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    the age of HA venos is over f:farewell
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Ehh..I've never supported these builds but I respect that other people want to play in different ways so I'll only give you some tips.

    Your magic defence is way too low with that set up. You'll be food to anything that deals magic damage. Venomancers have ways to counter incoming physical damage but there are limited things you can use to counter magical damage.
    Maybe use a G16 Nirvana AA top instead and maybe shard some of your HA pieces with Sapphires.

    Honestly though, if you're going to have a full G16 HA Nirvana set and an AA one to swap depending on your needs, I don't see a point in having an APS set up. You have less defences and it doesn't really work in PvP.
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  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Oh dear, another HA venomancer lured by the potential for APS. I've seen more of them popping up recently and though I fully support alternate builds, venos just don't lend themselves well to APS.

    As I've said before HA venomancers should concentrate on defense, that is their greatest assest. No matter how you twink yourself you will NEVER do as much damage as a sin or a BM, even while APSing, same goes for caster venos against other magic classes, that's why we're given pets. The biggest problem with such builds is that your sacrificing too much for too little. As Desdi pointed out your magic defense is too low, especially with the cleric buffs on. You'll be one shotted by any R9 arcane that takes the field, and since you have to get close to APS and don't have the rush skills of a BM or stealth of a sin, closing on your opponent before they light you up with their skill of choice will be quite difficult. On top of that, venos do not get an aps bonus to sparking and so your base aps stays where it is. 2.22, sadly, is nothing to write home about and would barely give you double the attack effectiveness of my full S3 veno which sits at 1.45. That won't make her doubly effective however as well adjusted upgraded pets add their attacks into the equation as well, essentially giving all venos an extra 1 to 1.25 attacks per second as long as the pet is alive. Since pet stats are now based on gear your gimping your pet with this build. Even I'm looking at changing a few pieces of my old set out with the new pet upgrades (mostly looking at the rings, rank or SoES).

    I suppose you could argue for effectiveness in PvE, but most parties are going to want a veno that AOEs, purges and amps. They'll have enough APS toons already, and even if they don't, a veno isn't going to fit their bill. Though you can still purge and amp, APS doesn't help with AOEs which are dependent solely on damage and skill levels. I suppose you can grind better than other veno toons, but since most (even mine) can one hit most mobs with spells or only take another second to kill mobs in melee I would say the added effectiveness is limited. Throw in the fact that venos can't use blood paint like other APSers and you have gimped your defenses, HP, and base damage, for perhaps one more attack per second of combat. Not a very good trade off if you ask me.

    Lastly, don't use spark to show off the build of a character, I used to be able to get my veno up to 2.5 APS and it wasn't enough to perma spark. If your going to show off a build you should show only the base attributes, because that's what you'll be fighting in most of the time.
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    oh my god LA ornaments

    *washes hands of this thread
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Red text, juvenile spelling (ish -anyone?), inquiring about obsolete aps which has very little use anymore and even sucks on BMs who are a melee class. -I'll call it first: troll post.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Raziyal - Archosaur
    Raziyal - Archosaur Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    As said before.. its not best for a HA veno to go aps ... Its not practical unless all you do is PvE.

    My HA is pure defence and im ususally a decoy for other venos to purge etc in TW due to my physical defence.
    Her Mag defence is fine for a HA veno, Mines about the same in that area but is about 5.7k instead.

    I find her build is fine, depending on what she wants to do with it...
    But i don't like the aps, you really don't need it.
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  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    pve wise all you need is demon/sage amp anyways. Your damage only matters in metal/fire/aoe where statting mag helps more
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  • BlackRapture - Raging Tide
    BlackRapture - Raging Tide Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    http://pwcalc.com/dd74db73bed0d330

    My current build, no shards, no aps. My build is aiming for a balance of melee and magic usefulness, aided by decent refines and attack levels for damage output. Now there are a few things I'd like to point out:
    1: No, venos will not do equivalent melee damage as compared to melee classes. For one, we're stuck with only using magic weapons and a melee mastery that helps us deal damage equal to the melee classes BEFORE adding in their masteries. Does this render them pointless? Not in the slightest. We may not deal as much damage wearing HA, but if you can't afford r9, try this. I can still solo the metal pav in fws with ease, and nasty aoes from Harpy Wraith don't even tick my charm. I do, from time to time, steal aggro, but most the time I fit into my role and debuff/purge bosses like a good foxeh.

    2: Unless you're wearing r9-999, a Heavy Fox is STILL the way to go. And I'm not saying it's a substitute, but look at it this way- your survivability should outlast anyone who isn't in rank gear. And I say this because you can still swap to your arcane gear to fight arcane people/mobs. Plus fox form skills are the base of your roles, whether you like it or not, and building to make fox form more usable makes a difference. A huge one. And if you wanna pk, you're more than welcome to. Even without the use of bramble, sins will fall to your auto-attacks before you do, if you learn to par. I may not deal huge amounts of damage in pvp, but rest assured that most fights I get in, I survive until I'm ganked.

    3. Rank 9, tier 3, is gonna be more powerful than this build, every time, from any class. The devs want your money. And yes, I'm saving for it, myself. It's the next step up, because even if I get a warsoul recasted, there's no purify proc. And the defense levels, though not as effective, will keep you alive long enough to cast a one shot. And the attack levels will make my melee damage deal about what I deal right now, but most importantly, as I've mentioned several times already, r9 is more powerful than a heavy build fox. The damage outweighs the need for strong, constant survivability. And should the time come when you need survivability, the weapon proc gives you a window to cast a Feral Concentration or drop an Ironguard Powder.

    Now I'm not saying you are entitled to see things as I do, but rest assured my build is serving me well, and I didn't have to pay half a thousand to just make it, disregarding refines and such. If a heavy fox suits you, I'd lean towards attack levels for damage output rather than aps, after all we don't get bp xD. If you don't like the idea of HA venos, you probably haven't squadded with a skilled one yet. Either that or you can let me borrow some coin to go r9 xD
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  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013

    Her Mag defence is fine for a HA veno, Mines about the same in that area but is about 5.7k instead.

    It's not fine.

    As mentioned in a previous thread, there are more ways of increasing one's physical defence than increasing magic defence.

    There's Cleric's Vanguard Spirit, BM's Aura of Golden Bell, Faction Base's buff and additionally Fox Form for Venomancers.

    Most AA classes have a unique way to increase their Physical defence (Wizards have their shields, Mystics have their self-buff etc.) My 5k unbuffed physical defence in human form becomes 15k in fox form with buffs. It will go up to 18-19k if we consider lvl11 buffs and faction base buff.
    I'm not even done, I'll be further upgrading my gear to a better grade/refined necklace and probably a physical ring in the future.
    Spirit of Defence is available, you have your pocket Cleric/BM buffs with you.

    Magic defence has..Cleric's Magic Shell. That's pretty much it for Venomancers. Your 3k-ish defence unbuffed will be 5-6kish defence buffed with no other way of further increasing it unless you refine your ornaments higher which, in Kittysama's set up, is not an option.

    I'm not trying to promote my build here, in case anyone feels that way. I'm trying to point some facts.


    Unless you're wearing r9-999, a Heavy Fox is STILL the way to go. And I'm not saying it's a substitute, but look at it this way- your survivability should outlast anyone who isn't in rank gear.

    I won't argue that in PvP, a HA Venomancer has more physical defence and more HP than an AA one but refer to my point above. I'm just tired of people implying that AA set-ups don't stand well and as of now incoming magic damage is as scary as physical damage.

    HA opens up other playstyles, advantages and has the benefit of being able to be shared with other toons. Have a Seeker and a BM? Might as well go HA and save me the coin from having to make a single AA set. However, implying that HA is the way to go in PvP (when R999 is not an option) is not entirely true.
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  • Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721
    edited July 2013
    I won't argue that in PvP, a HA Venomancer has more physical defence and more HP than an AA one but refer to my point above. I'm just tired of people implying that AA set-ups don't stand well and as of now incoming magic damage is as scary as physical damage.

    HA opens up other playstyles, advantages and has the benefit of being able to be shared with other toons. Have a Seeker and a BM? Might as well go HA and save me the coin from having to make a single AA set. However, implying that HA is the way to go in PvP (when R999 is not an option) is not entirely true.

    Kitty's at least not arguing about AA-veno's survivability compared to HA-veno. And Kitty chose going HA because it seemed a bit exotic gamestyle(Kitty likes to use exotic builds) and Kitty's not going R9(rr) on any toon for a loooong time(probably never) as Kitty tries to keep all her 10 mains around equally geared(which means Kitty has a super-long way to go).

    If you wonder why Kitty has 10 mains, it's 'cause Kitty gets bored in playing a single class quickly, having one of every class keeps motivation high. Going to Lunar-T3 because of that and thus making Lunar-T3 AA, LA and HA-gears and possibly some other gear pieces that some toons need outside T3(like APS on sin and BM, maybe on archer too. Kitty likes APS for PVE purposes, defensive/DPH for PVP). After doing all those gears making a APS-set for veno for laughs isn't a big deal(except inventory might be a bit full with AA-set, HA-set and APS-pieces, already carrying both TT90-HA and AA-sets and -channeling and str/p. def. ornaments lol).

    And for those who think HA-veno ish totally outdated option, Kitty has a 73 AA-veno too. Kitty just doesn't like playing it even nearly as much as HA-veno. Kitty's playing this game for fun after all.

    If you wonder why Kitty bothers to get APS-set too, it's because Kitty likes to have many options. Having APS-pieces too would open another playstyle for veno, Kitty thinks. And Kitty's bit insane toof:cute
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
    Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
    Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Having APS-pieces too would open another playstyle for veno, Kitty thinks.

    Back when Nirvana was run and you didn't have a bunch of disgusting r9rrs running about? Sure. It'd be okay. Nowadays? lolno.

    As I said in a different thread: unless you have the $$$ to go out and get at least a full +10 g16 Nirvana HA set with +10 mdef orns or it's an otherwise decent set acc stashed from another HA char (we're talking at least full +7), don't bother with an HA veno. Just do a vit AA veno and call it a day.
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  • Surukuvio - Raging Tide
    Surukuvio - Raging Tide Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    About the mag def.. My barb has 8k mag def buffed and 21k HP... Many casters still hurt lke hell or even 1-shot me b:surrender
  • Pelli - Dreamweaver
    Pelli - Dreamweaver Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    PvE wise? Sure, do go on. All you need is your amp and sparks, although venos gain nothing from sparks like the other classes anyway.

    PvP wise? lolNope. You're gonna get squashed by every single caster that you encounter that are g16 or better.

    APS HA venos are dead. You can do it and if you have fun, keep doing it but that's my two cents on it. This build isn't all that good. Sure, you have defense. Archers are still going to purge, sins are still going to stunlock, same with BMs and casters are going to walk all over you.
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  • Surukuvio - Raging Tide
    Surukuvio - Raging Tide Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Tbh I dont see much PVE uses either. Warsong, delta and Lunar are out of question. APS sucks in aba and SOT. TT... aps veno aint replacing a well geared sin though the debuffs are useful.

    Sure you can trolololol easy bosses which you can handle with crabs but I think aps veno cant even solo FC effectively withou using other chars to help with pulls and all that stuff.

    Yeah TT is the only instance I can think of and there you dont have time to aps effectively as you need to constantly debuff (amp, myriads, purge, ironwood if needed).
  • davelaurence
    davelaurence Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    aps veno is actually geared up for specific PVE purposes. here's an example of a successful aps build. this is taken from one of my toons in pwph, a later version of perfect world.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/vfvt.png/
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Still same problem as Kitty's build, the magic defence is way too low :/
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  • Asishi - Archosaur
    Asishi - Archosaur Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    If you're going aps veno, go demon instead. Venomancers have unique sparks, and while the sage melee mastery bonus is tempting, sage spark's patk bonus is only 500%, where demon's is 650%. High enough aps will already afford you heavy chi generation. You get a higher overall damage output that way.

    Do bear in mind though, when I say unique sparks, sage doesn't get bless, demon doesn't get -int/-chan. Don't pick expecting those.
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    aps veno is actually geared up for specific PVE purposes. here's an example of a successful aps build. this is taken from one of my toons in pwph, a later version of perfect world.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/vfvt.png/

    uhm.....hmmm. Are you using a magic weapon? Your magic attack is very low for even a basic magic weapon, not to mention it has no variance, and your resistances are very low pertaining to your magic stat. Also, blocking out your stat point distribution makes one feel your build is dubious. If you are using a mirage sword or a low tier magic weopon, even in fox form, as someone who has done it I feel your phys attack shouldn't be that high.

    I will remind anyone who reads this that "tricking out the game" to shift into fox while wearing claws or any other melee weapon has been designated a bannable offense and you are stuck in fox form until you relog. I will not post here how it can be done, but, simply put, don't do it.
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    4.0 APS indicates it's a claw/fist build. That kind of APS is unachievable with a magic weapon.
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  • Xainou - Sanctuary
    Xainou - Sanctuary Posts: 5,369 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Honestly, I don't see anything that a BM couldn't do better. lol
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  • Asishi - Archosaur
    Asishi - Archosaur Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Honestly, I don't see anything that a BM couldn't do better. lol

    Aps with a debuff or damage assistant pet. BM can't do that. Doesn't mean I find the build worth making personally, but that is a point you can't really debate.
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    You can argue that BMs have Heaven's Flame and Glacial Spike but it's true they have no pet.

    However, in the case that your pet dies or needs a heal you're stuck with fists/claws until you re-log, plus that's bannable. If you go the Magic Sword way, you'll never reach the APS/DPS of a BM.
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  • Asishi - Archosaur
    Asishi - Archosaur Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    You can argue that BMs have Heaven's Flame and Glacial Spike but it's true they have no pet.

    However, in the case that your pet dies or needs a heal you're stuck with fists/claws until you re-log, plus that's bannable. If you go the Magic Sword way, you'll never reach the APS/DPS of a BM.

    Never said it was a good argument, just a valid one.
  • Kittennice - Heavens Tear
    Kittennice - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Oh my... O.O

    I'm a melee veno and I don't even have that low of mag defense
    I advise more elemental acc. and sapphires in the cape at least so you don't squeak after getting hit by magic
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  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Never said it was a good argument, just a valid one.

    Perma-erupt on veno -no
    HP recovery on erupt -no
    BP heals -no
    Good aoe -no

    ^^those are actual arguments.
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    thumbs wrote: »
    Perma-erupt on veno -no
    HP recovery on erupt -no
    BP heals -no
    Good aoe -no

    ^^those are actual arguments.

    Actually foxes have excellent AOE, most players just don't know about it because fox animations suck in general and most venos that use aoe attacks don't use the fox form ones.

    None of the fox AOE skills benefit from APS however... and only the fox rainbow's 25% chance phys debuff would help APS in any way.
  • CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear
    CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear Posts: 187 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Considering how I'm pure arcane, I'm a bit confused by this thread.

    What's the argument here. I mean, I see HA venos pretty often. In a way, isn't that kind of stat-ing for low mag def?

    And what I'm aware, there ARE aps venos. If the OP genuinely wants to test it out and wants input, I don't think its fair to assume that OP's trolling..

    As for the original build posted, LA ornaments are worth nothing. It's +evasion which helps no one.
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  • Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721
    edited August 2013
    Kitty's HA-veno for being able to switch between extreme p. def. and good magic defence. If Kitty needs some m. def, she just swaps some suitable piece of armor from HA to AA. Kitty's practised estimating the best possible defence ratio between P.def/M.def. at FC when doing full magic pull, magic groups and phys. pulls.

    And Kitty's pretty serious about testing this build, the build she posted in original post has her real lvl 100 stat distribution and Kitty thinks APS-gear pieces gives some extra DPS when the defences aren't so important and that DPS ish useful. For PVP Kitty obviously uses T3 HA- and AA-sets and mixing them according to situation and that APS ish just for PVE-use(like sins have APS-gears and PVP-gears).

    And thing why Kitty even began considering this build ish that she noticed her veno doing about double the similar level sin's DPH when auto-attacking a [?]-mob. And according to calc the base p. damage ish quite high compared to sin with similar upgraded T3-weapon(at least Kitty remembers something like that from seeing some T3-APS-sin's calc).

    And about the spark-downtime, that can be used well for Amping, accuracy debuffing, using Master Li's Technique for missing chi...for something useful.

    Kitty's actually going to make this build work, no matter what anyone says. Kitty likes challenges
    f:cool
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    Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
    Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
    Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Or maybe just finish your BM so you can farm TT/mobless WS so that you can pay for all that ****?
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  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Actually foxes have excellent AOE, most players just don't know about it because fox animations suck in general and most venos that use aoe attacks don't use the fox form ones.

    As a pure mag / pve only; I use all the aoes. Malefic Crush is very noticeable and I was often asked what that skill was.
    None of the fox AOE skills benefit from APS however... and only the fox rainbow's 25% chance phys debuff would help APS in any way.

    They do *currently* benefit from Str which should come with aps build.

    Didn't really mean to post all that to get into a discussion about it. Was more to point out that there was no actual argument to the person I replied to. The topic has been beaten into the ground. There's a reason the majority of us are still primarily casters.