APS barb vs Sage vit/str barb

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

While unable to play the game until about 6 weeks ago, i have been spamming these forums continuously. Much of it was about my APS barb plans and the debate between the lovers and the haters.
Lots of forum spam without actual experience. Now that i am playing again and actually made the APS barb instead of wasting my time on the forums, i figure ill get back to it and share my experiences as i now have both a sage barb that has 60 dex, 360st and the rest vit and a demon APS barb that looks exactly like this In HA it looks like this

I used the sage and demon barb in the same equipment and with the same genie. The sage tiger has 21k HP, the demon tiger has 18k buffed. I do notice the difference, but it is not very important, i can still do all the pulling and tanking i need to.

The biggest difference i however is the lack of sage devour and ream. I don't have the demon versions yet, but i'm pretty sure they aint gonna change that. When you tank and try to keep agro, its about chi, a shorter cooldown aint gonna help if you dont got the chi to cast ream so fast again. Sage is much better for keeping agro+full time devour when tiger tanking. I can make up for the lack of chi by using cloud eruption, but when tanking matters, i rather keep my genie ready to TOP or AD when needed.

How about APS tanking ?
Well thats the whole thing i am learning to get right now. When do i need to tiger tank and when i can APS and how to swich between them fast enough.
The squichiness of an APS equiped standing barb has taken me some lives to get used to. All of a sudden you can die when you run into 3 mobs without the chi to spark first. b:shocked Tanking bosses where you have the constant paintheals isnt half that bad though. Taking the damage in APS form for me is possible with all but a few bosses. The final SOT bosses, the poison one in FW is so-so. Incacerate depends on the squad, sometimes safer to tiger.

Holding agro is a whole different subject.
When you are with an OP squad that doesnt really need a barb, it is easy, you APS and you may have agro at times or not, noone cares.
When you are obviously the strongest DD, there is also no problem either, you just kill the boss and the rest also makes some scratches
The problem however is the middle area when there are stronger DDs than you (4apsG16sin +4 and better) but they cannot handle the agro. As the limit of G16+4 is not too high, there are plenty sins who out agro me but cant handle it.
In tiger form i can keep an eye out for how the agro holding DD is doing and do a quick ream+devour to take agro from him for a moment. When APSing it is much more difficult to control agro. Swiching weapon and form to ream is too slow. Trying to make DDs that are about equal in damage output to hold back a little bit is impossible. On the contrary, they do all their best effort to prove their strength by taking agro from you. So unfortunately, tanking is very often still done in tiger form.

All together i am very happy with the versatility this barb provides me, and while it is unfortunate that in many cases i cannot APS tank and tiger tanking is not as good as it is with the sage barb, i am still well capable enough to tank anything in the game. I hope gearing up to 5APS and +10 will reduce the amount of DDs that outDDme but cant tank so that i can do more APS tanking

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I can not say what is good or bad. But i would recommend if you are serious about aps tanking to get pan gu tome. 5 aps world is very different from 4 aps.

At 5 aps, +10 claws on my bm = agro tussle with +7 g16 sins. Anything below +7 g16 = no issue. G13+12 = somewhat an issue, but those are rare. G15+10 = not an issue, +12 = an issue. r9 3rd cast = an issue.

But getting to 5 aps, helps. Also you have pdef ornaments, that hurts your mdef, might want to use magic def charms to tank bosses.

FkinMaltaMan - Sanctuary

In my experience I've always been a fan of APS barbs in PvE. The HP+Defense difference isn't too big to compare when you fight mobs/Bosses imo. Exceptions would be like Phoenix Valley where you'd rather be able to pull as many mobs as you can+tanking and then deal as much as you can with aoe's (obviously arma). Otherwise for farming/BH/similar things I loved being an APS barb. Even more awesome back in the days when you could glitch demon Beastial Onslaught for the crit-buff. b:dirty

I don't know if there are many APS barbs out there who use it, but you deal A LOT more DPS if you stack Poison Fang+The apoth that provides you with additional fire damage. Scary combo b:shocked

Colum - Raging Tide

Chi management hard as demon? What are you smoking? I can use ream+devour continously and also gain my chi back without issues. Constant aggro except against sins with OP daggerss (r9r3+10 etc).

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Chi management hard as demon? What are you smoking? I can use ream+devour continously and also gain my chi back without issues. Constant aggro except against sins with OP daggerss (r9r3+10 etc).

You did notice that the sage version of both skills cost significantly less chi ?

Of course that makes a difference.

IBaMBii - Heavens Tear

I am demon and I recently dropped my claw build. As R9S3 now, aps does nothing in pvp. And in pve, I prefer my mdef and defense levels and all the bonuses, I can just let the sins do the damage while I save my charm ticks. I only miss claws when I solo or help lowbies, but my axe still does great damage sparked. Overall, not much lost.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

charm ticks ? Havent used any this far. But i also havent gone beyond TT3-1 without someone stronger than me taking the hits. Maybe if i want to farm 3-3 i will use one.

Indeed, for PvP i dont use APS either except for destroying the towers in the bridge fight. My PvP is limited to on average 1 NW per week though, so not much of an issue

The soloing is of course the whole reason i made this, but i also like the versatility in squads. They need a tank, i come tank, they already have one ? i come DD.

Now i just need to find 210m in my budget to buy that damn tome . Should be soon though....

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Go APS barb if you can afford +8 gear to cover for the loss of vit.

Which is why I'm going vit on my barb despite being vocally supportive of aps barb. How to afford jack****?

Donate please

tweakz

What is there left to APS tank? As an assassin; I'd rather you devour and maybe Frighten on bosses like Snakefist. -Almost any mage can tank that boss.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

What is there left to APS tank? As an assassin; I'd rather you devour and maybe Frighten on bosses like Snakefist. -Almost any mage can tank that boss.

who doesn't love kitties that grab aggro from minister and you sleep foreverb:cute

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

What is there left to APS tank? As an assassin; I'd rather you devour and maybe Frighten on bosses like Snakefist. -Almost any mage can tank that boss.

TT, every warsong boss, every lunar boss, leaf rain, Puppeteer, new abba final boss, all old fb99 bosses, mask of grief, Hellfire Abomination if you are defensive enough, non-phys immune AEU bosses, even with the anti aps buff, world bosses, FC, off the top of my head

tweakz

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

TT, every warsong boss, every lunar boss, leaf rain, Puppeteer, new abba final boss, all old fb99 bosses, mask of grief, Hellfire Abomination if you are defensive enough, non-phys immune AEU bosses, even with the anti aps buff, world bosses, FC, off the top of my head

Not much experience in TT, but don't assassins just tank aps tankable bosses there? It's not like they've updated TT lately, or they're not [?] .

Every lunar boss on the BH path can also easily be simply range tanked, and I'd rather have a Barb Devouring, and Frightening than apsing on bosses my assassins can also tank.

Did you see Puppet bosses buff? Do you realize that most pure mag mages can tank Leaf Rain Dryad, and you're more valuable for Devour on it?

The biggest problem I find in Barbs for PvE is we rarely get one that Devours. Aggro shouldn't even be an issue with Stomp of the King, and the recent improvements to Devour and Ream. Any sin that can steal aggro from that and not generally tank stuff is a fool.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Not much experience in TT, but don't assassins just tank aps tankable bosses there? It's not like they've updated TT lately, or they're not [?] .

Not really; they solo it, bringing the cost of TT mats down for everyone. Every TT boss is [?] and easily APSable

Every lunar boss on the BH path can also easily be simply range tanked, and I'd rather have a Barb Devouring, and Frightening than apsing on bosses my assassins can also tank.

Baby tank me a BH boss with range. Also range takes forever. Barb can devour and then APS too. BH boss Should not last more than the duration of devour

Did you see Puppet bosses buff? Do you realize that most pure mag mages can tank Leaf Rain Dryad, and you're more valuable for Devour on it?


Puppet boss is still aps-able. All the forti drought bosses are. It just needs vastly better gear than average and a cauterize genie to kill that bleed if you're soloing. One of my sin fac mates was able to aps tank it just fine except for the bleed, which would not be a problem with a cleric + squad
*
Cuz devour is so useful for magic classes lol; get in there APS leaf in 5 seconds, BH done

The biggest problem I find in Barbs for PvE is we rarely get one that Devours. Aggro shouldn't even be an issue with Stomp of the King, and the recent improvements to Devour and Ream. Any sin that can steal aggro from that and not generally tank stuff is a fool.

Stomp of the king lasts about 5-6 seconds at most, about 2-3 with G16 +10 daggers

I like how you still never got over the hump of knowing how to switch forms and weapons. Devour--spark--stand up and swap weapons--in one motion--start to aps. Maybe you're just too slow

Haila - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

Not much experience in TT, but don't assassins just tank aps tankable bosses there? It's not like they've updated TT lately, or they're not [?] .

Every lunar boss on the BH path can also easily be simply range tanked, and I'd rather have a Barb Devouring, and Frightening than apsing on bosses my assassins can also tank.

Did you see Puppet bosses buff? Do you realize that most pure mag mages can tank Leaf Rain Dryad, and you're more valuable for Devour on it?

The biggest problem I find in Barbs for PvE is we rarely get one that Devours. Aggro shouldn't even be an issue with Stomp of the King, and the recent improvements to Devour and Ream. Any sin that can steal aggro from that and not generally tank stuff is a fool.

Reduce att level by 15 for 4 secs is so valuable for the mage tank XD b:laugh

overcomem

what do u expect from aps barb ? (TT faming ? cool with attack high speed? better aggro from aps?) i suggest don't waste ur time for aps barbie.

absolutely true of truth now a day =>

R9rrr sin >>>> aps barbbie

if u got OP sin in squad and they can tank u just Devour / frighten / alacrity stop boss channeling/ or some fresh realm when they HP down and aggro back when they spark/ etc.... Or just aps to be cool? b:victory

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

because i can do the same damage as the sin does instead of add 20% to the sins attack ?
Sure if there are 5 sins, i better devour than APS. Sins always think only of what others can do to their attack.....

And of course an r9.3 high refined anything > APS anything. A ferarri > toyota. Doesnt mean anything is wrong with a toyota for those who cant afford a ferrari.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

Reduce att level by 15 for 4 secs is so valuable for the mage tank XD b:laugh

4 seconds in which they get about 2 hits, maybe 3

And no, sins will never be even 2.86 with r9rr. Barbs can be 5.0 with r9rr. That's a lot more defense than anything a sin can come up with

did I mention swap axes-change form-turn into traditional barb or invoke-stand back up-erupt- hit a few times and spark? Tell me how a sin can ever get invoked while soloing lol

overcomem

lol. A ferarri > toyota ( nice comparison i really like it )

why not make alt aps Sin + bm/veno alt duo in TT ? becuase they 're not furry?

Sin was my main char that makes a ton of coin long time and now a day long for me -> sin with R9rrr dagger + aps gears with +10 refine is enough and easy for TT + duo with BM or Veno alt + cleric & barb buff

Or just invest only G16 dagger + 10 and decent aps gears u will do TT fine. (if u can't afford R9 dagg)

so i can leave my toyota and have ferarri on my barb now a day. and side effect more alts that means more chance to gamble with BH reward. b:victory

some still love aps on barb and wanna make their aps barb to do highest DPS and can solo everything in any instance but what about solo each warsong boss / new SoT/Aban boss ? i guess u don't need cleric to help becuase ur aps + HP = everything b:laugh

only thing i see asp barb useful just for TT now a day. why i don't want aps barb for TT (who ask?) because my aps sin + bm did better a lot than aps barb. b:victory

tweakz

Lol: was going to respond but felt like not responding to crayon looking improper quotes, and ignorance of Devour's atk level effect. I figured there's gotta be more than me that sees the worthlessness of aps barb in today's game. -Looks like I was right.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Lol: was going to respond but felt like not responding to crayon looking improper quotes, and ignorance of Devour's atk level effect. I figured there's gotta be more than me that sees the worthlessness of aps barb in today's game. -Looks like I was right.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

4 seconds

Unfortunately, I'm not like you; I am not ignorant and emotionally driven in my decisions. I know what devour does. Quoting myself above. 4 seconds of attack level debuff? Why not just take aggro and not let the caster get any damage at all beyond the aoe, which wouldn't even hit at all if you had a few APS DDs mow Leaf down in 5 seconds. Prior to the abba revamp I had a squad where a sin with +3 G16 kill leaf with minimal DD from a BM, my currently pure bow archer and some caster, in 10 seconds. Who gives a **** about the atk level debuff when boss is dead?

And to the person above talking about solo warsong bosses, please go away or come back with constructive comments. Who the hell is going to solo warsong bosses anyways, even if anyone could? You get equivalent badge reward no matter the number of people.

I suppose tweakz was just butthurt that he was doing zilch damage because he was silly enough to be running around with +10 Deicides (see the post above mine http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=19577121#post19577121).

It's funny that he calls me out for not nothing the atk level reduction (which I duly noted and then dismissed anyways) but said that he can get aggro with alpha male + stream strike (oh you can get aggro with AM alright, if you knew how it actually worked)

tweakz wrote: »

There is Alpha Male + Stream Strike, and other skills that cause aggro by applying a debuff that can alternatively be used.

Pro player we got here

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

I have actually also been checking some more into the effect of AP and devour. I did not do this scientifically, i did not write down a proper sample of hits and took the average damge. I just looked at my damage log when punching some TT bosses and noted the following:

Armor Penetrate and Mire each add about 10% to the damage output. Devour something like 15%.

This already makes clear that a good DD is more valuable than a devour debuffer even not counting the fact that the cleric can do almost the same.

Devour imo takes too long. Trying to swich really fast seems unreliable. Sometimes when i simply click true form and weapon change in order, it works, other times it does notm seemingly because true form takes time and i cannot yet change weapon. This is definately not worthy if the cleric can do the same for you.

If you want debuffing, i prefer armor penetrate since you dont need to swich form an as you can swap to axe during spark animation, select to cast AP while still sparking and then swich back to claws while casting AP, you can cast it without losing any more time than the bare essential channel+cast time.

When i am soloing i still dont find it worthy though, it costs me 1 second to gain a 10 second 10% bonus, evening out to being about equal.

Beleni - Dreamweaver

why do people believe that if you aps a boss you cant devour at the same time?

i used to pop into tiger before spark, to get the max HP i could from spark and devour right after then human form and BO for the crit + pew pew pew if done right it takes 1-2 seconds max.
If you aps barbs are worried about the loss of 1 -2 seconds- Devour 1st then spark, demon gives a 15 sec duration.

Kalmiah - Raging Tide

And how does the chi affect in any way if I am fine with what chi I have and can flesh ream as soon as it's off from cd and can devour as soon as the effect wears off, yet keep my chi over 3 sparks if I wish so? Seems that the chi reduction is pretty pointless.

tweakz

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Unfortunately, I'm not like you; I am not ignorant and emotionally driven in my decisions.

Like the ignorant and emotionally driven desire to lead a weak response with a personal attack? -Certainly not you!

I know what devour does. Quoting myself above. 4 seconds of attack level debuff? Why not just take aggro and not let the caster get any damage at all beyond the aoe, which wouldn't even hit at all if you had a few APS DDs mow Leaf down in 5 seconds.

Even caster squads can mow leaf down. Aps is over-rated in todays game. Farm TT with it and have fun.

Prior to the abba revamp I had a squad where a sin with +3 G16 kill leaf with minimal DD from a BM, my currently pure bow archer and some caster, in 10 seconds. Who gives a **** about the atk level debuff when boss is dead?

Wow; you had 1 run and base all your decisions on that? -lol! b:victory

And to the person above talking about solo warsong bosses, please go away or come back with constructive comments. Who the hell is going to solo warsong bosses anyways, even if anyone could? You get equivalent badge reward no matter the number of people.

Did it for the molds and because I could.

I suppose tweakz was just butthurt that he was doing zilch damage because he was silly enough to be running around with +10 Deicides (see the post above mine http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=19577121#post19577121).

Not as butt hurt as you appear to be by resorting to personal attacks.

Haila - Sanctuary

overcomem wrote: »

lol. A ferarri > toyota ( nice comparison i really like it )

why not make alt aps Sin + bm/veno alt duo in TT ? becuase they 're not furry?

Sin was my main char that makes a ton of coin long time and now a day long for me -> sin with R9rrr dagger + aps gears with +10 refine is enough and easy for TT + duo with BM or Veno alt + cleric & barb buff

Or just invest only G16 dagger + 10 and decent aps gears u will do TT fine. (if u can't afford R9 dagg)

so i can leave my toyota and have ferarri on my barb now a day. and side effect more alts that means more chance to gamble with BH reward. b:victory

some still love aps on barb and wanna make their aps barb to do highest DPS and can solo everything in any instance but what about solo each warsong boss / new SoT/Aban boss ? i guess u don't need cleric to help becuase ur aps + HP = everything b:laugh

only thing i see asp barb useful just for TT now a day. why i don't want aps barb for TT (who ask?) because my aps sin + bm did better a lot than aps barb. b:victory

lol you compare a r999 with +10 aps gear with the lower gears of this barb.
When you had about his gear you cant solo b:fatb with your sin, maybe fcc XD

tweakz wrote: »

Lol: was going to respond but felt like not responding to crayon looking improper quotes, and ignorance of Devour's atk level effect. I figured there's gotta be more than me that sees the worthlessness of aps barb in today's game. -Looks like I was right.

So you want the barb cast devour for you because you need the attack level reduce on your awesome tank mage. Lemme tell you this IF YOU CANT TANK IT LET THE BARB TANK XD

overcomem

Quote:
Haila - Sanctuarylol : you compare a r999 with +10 aps gear with the lower gears of this barb.
When you had about his gear you cant solo b:fatb with your sin, maybe fcc XD
........................................................................................................................

Your aps barbie doesn't like to compare with r999 dag + 10 aps gears ? because u can't afford OP gear and compare with it right? b:laugh. it's nessessary to compare everything in equal ?? nah u don't need if u have a better option b:shutup.

and LoL ask those aps barbs with claw in TW and NW. what a pain. Barb claw in NW,TW that make me LOL

only thing i see aps barb just for TT and as i said i don't need aps barb becuase i have better option. Sin duo with BM/Veno + barb/cleric buff work great farming TT for me.

another words i don't like aps* sin in PVP. My R9rr sin great TT farming it's better option for me.and in another words again i don't like aps* barb in PVE/PVP full str or vit barb it's fun for me in PVP/PVE more ( with skills)

in PVP agianst with those casters R9rr today if ur barb can't afford gear like this http://pwcalc.com/e37c09b7c16b00a7 so no point to go aps b:byeb:fatb

tweakz

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

So you want the barb cast devour for you because you need the attack level reduce on your awesome tank mage. Lemme tell you this IF YOU CANT TANK IT LET THE BARB TANK XD

Yep; let barb tank because that's all the stupid idiots think they're good for. -Even if it takes 2x as long to kill boss and risks squad wipe.

Haila - Sanctuary

overcomem wrote: »

Your aps barbie doesn't like to compare with r999 dag + 10 aps gears ? because u can't afford OP gear and compare with it right? b:laugh. it's nessessary to compare everything in equal ?? nah u don't need if u have a better option b:shutup.

and LoL ask those aps barbs with claw in TW and NW. what a pain. Barb claw in NW,TW that make me LOL

only thing i see aps barb just for TT and as i said i don't need aps barb becuase i have better option. Sin duo with BM/Veno + barb/cleric buff work great farming TT for me.

another words i don't like aps* sin in PVP. My R9rr sin great TT farming it's better option for me.and in another words again i don't like aps* barb in PVE/PVP full str or vit barb it's fun for me in PVP/PVE more ( with skills)

in PVP agianst with those casters R9rr today if ur barb can't afford gear like this http://pwcalc.com/e37c09b7c16b00a7 so no point to go aps b:byeb:fatb

So your aps sin is not for pvp because he sucks in pvp and someone else's aps barb is fail in pvp because your aps sin fails. I cant help it that you're a 1 shot hahahaha

tweakz wrote: »

Yep; let barb tank because that's all the stupid idiots think they're good for. -Even if it takes 2x as long to kill boss and risks squad wipe.

lol i have been in squads where i devour and goes faster but certainly not in one with a mage tanking.
How will it go 2x faster with a mage tanking. 1 the melee DD's must suck to let mage tank
and 2 I never seen a mage or any caster steal aggro from me in my life even if i dont spark hahahaha. (Ok i need to spark with a r999 +12 caster)

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Yep; let barb tank because that's all the stupid idiots think they're good for. -Even if it takes 2x as long to kill boss and risks squad wipe.

I find it hard to believe that a caster that can get aggro from an aps barb would need devour to tank the boss. what are they, r9rr+12 weapon and npc armor?

tweakz

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that a caster that can get aggro from an aps barb would need devour to tank the boss. what are they, r9rr+12 weapon and npc armor?

Referring to Assassins, dunno why you'd assume i'm just a caster.

Flash_man - Lost City

aps barb's suck in pk, only good for pve, sage barbs only good for pve, demon barb overall best, if you don't like then reroll different class b:victory