What class you choosed to PVP with an why

Joe - Morai

trands wrote: »

I like pk most on psychic, but that is pretty circular. I like psychic most overall, so it ended up best geared, which is obviously a factor when in pk. Out of the 8 classes I've played, I like psychic most because they are pretty versatile. Pretty good damage , defense and offense choice, good and cheap control skills, aoe purify+heal ... They are usefull in many circumstances and not always bound to the exact same thing. I also think they go pretty well in the (current) rock-paper-scissors system of strong and weak points. And they are pretty cheap maintenance-wise when it comes to pvp b:laugh

The class I'd consider best for pk these days would be wizard. With the last updates, they are best decked out against what used to be their weak points. However, choosing a pvp class just on what's strongest is pretty silly. In a few months things will have changed again anyway.

@ Joe : it's clear you don't like psychics b:shocked but no need to invent silly things. I agree psychics are not the way to OP class some make it seem as legacy of the long forgotten aps era, but they are not as weak as you make them. They are made squishy'ish (no def buffs and black voodoo penalty) since they are so decked out vs aps. But they are not that easy 1 shots vs equal geared self-buffed. Seekers are the only class that really 1 hit them, but that still requires a zerk+crit. Well, a barb could if they weren't forced to stand right in front of the psychic for arma.

The Problem I have with Psys is that !any! class can easily one-shot them, if you like I can surely tell you how while the psy can't do anything about it. Most ppl are just unable to dish out the max combos of their class which makes them not really common sense. NVM. Psys are not that versatily imho. You can switch between Souls, Voodoos, but that's it. The problem is not that Psys arn't fun to play, they are^^ got some myself too xD compared to all other classes they heavily lack versatility + their control skills are not really 100% reliable.

trands

Joe - Morai wrote: »

The Problem I have with Psys is that !any! class can easily one-shot them, if you like I can surely tell you how while the psy can't do anything about it. Most ppl are just unable to dish out the max combos of their class which makes them not really common sense. NVM.

Except that it's not true. There are only 2 attacks that can 1 hit an equal geared psychic, and both of them require a zerk+crit. Only 1 of those is ranged and can actually be sneaked and realistically 1 hit a psychic who can't do anything about it. There are combo's that hit hard for sure, but combo = 2+ moves = reaction time + chance to seal interupt the combo.

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Psys are not that versatily imho. You can switch between Souls, Voodoos, but that's it.

That's not what I meant. Most classes are always reduced to the exact same job, which often leads to either : being completely worthless till a certain gear lvl or only being there to do the 1 usefull thing while your IG is up. With psychic I never had that problem.

Joe - Morai wrote: »

The problem is not that Psys arn't fun to play, they are^^ got some myself too xD compared to all other classes they heavily lack versatility + their control skills are not really 100% reliable.

Name the control skills that are 100% reliable b:laugh Physical can miss and magic has a % of succes. Psychics control skills are pretty good cost/chance/duration/cd wise.

Again, I'm not saying psychics are the super OP class like some did before. I know the limits and weak spots of the class I play. But you are just being overly harsh. Probably because psychics don't have defense debuffs, as that is *your thing*. I've played 8 classes till 100+ as well, even several that reached what was considered "end game" at that moment. If I could choose again, I'd go psychic for sure as I like the class for pvp like stuff which isn't related to the OPness in my case.

Joe - Morai

trands wrote: »

Except that it's not true. There are only 2 attacks that can 1 hit an equal geared psychic, and both of them require a zerk+crit. Only 1 of those is ranged and can actually be sneaked and realistically 1 hit a psychic who can't do anything about it. There are combo's that hit hard for sure, but combo = 2+ moves = reaction time + chance to seal interupt the combo.

I always talk about 1-shots meaning that a single attack can reduce your hp instantly to 0, I count combos needed for that move in as well. A myst can easily 1-shot a psy for example. both end-game and self buffed only. the mystic just has to triple spark + instant cast pot...natures vangence + absorb soul and thats it for the psy with r9 +12 weap. useally hits for 20k+ on low def chars like psys. Same goes for BMs, Glacial Spike +tangling mire followed by a random crit or zerk from the r9 axe and its over. Same goes for Venos xD, psy goes pet, amplify, myriad rainbow (as an addition, not necessary), instant channel -> paranova + another skill (causes charm bypass and is counted as oneshot xD). Those combos are extremely hard to counter due to their speed. Nearly all classes can stun the psy before attempting the combo. If domain or faith is on CD then the psy is done for.

That's not what I meant. Most classes are always reduced to the exact same job, which often leads to either : being completely worthless till a certain gear lvl or only being there to do the 1 usefull thing while your IG is up. With psychic I never had that problem.

I agree with you here, a psy doesn't need much of preperation to be useful (stun or deal dmg). they dish out fast and decent dmg and are by far the most powerful class if you overgear others.

Name the control skills that are 100% reliable b:laugh Physical can miss and magic has a % of succes. Psychics control skills are pretty good cost/chance/duration/cd wise.

Demon Roar of the pride =P Untamed Wrath =P

Again, I'm not saying psychics are the super OP class like some did before. I know the limits and weak spots of the class I play. But you are just being overly harsh. Probably because psychics don't have defense debuffs, as that is *your thing*. I've played 8 classes till 100+ as well, even several that reached what was considered "end game" at that moment. If I could choose again, I'd go psychic for sure as I like the class for pvp like stuff which isn't related to the OPness in my case.

Ya that is my thing because that is what matters most in PvP, especially in 1on1s, if you cant debuff others and have nothing to protect yourselfes from debuffs then you got a big disadvantage. Well Psys are fun, I actually like questing on my psy the most. some nice aoes and stuff that makes you quite better for PvE then lets say the other caster classes. Psys got their pros and cons like any other class.

Don't get me wrong that just doesn't apply only to psys, get a Archer in the right moment and hes dead as well like nothing, but archer for example have extremely high evasion which can save their butts and lots of other nasty skills xD If you stun a psy he can only hope for soul of silence to trigger in critical situations. Psys can kill many other classes as well, only difficulties are clerics, Barbs and maybe BMs, all other classes are surely killable.

I like psys but I just like to count all possibilities in. For example I like Clerics and Barb the most because they have extraordinary survivabilities over the other classes (1on1 self buffed wise xD)

trands

@ Joe : I really can't agree that a combo counts as a 1 shot if the last hit is over targets hp. Especially on a psychic. In 1vs1 even less. Not going to imagenation fights, but I'm sure you know what I mean. Gemini zerk+crit is the only thing that can really 1 hit me self buffed. Arma could, but it is extremely rare to get hit by that without having the time to put up a counter (especially since most barbs want to devour before arma).

You're just playing chess with yourself here... If you decide in advance white is going to win, then black will have no chance of doing any good move even though it's strenght is exactly equal to white's.

Btw, I don't really count in 1vs1 as pvp criteria. 1vs1 is more 1 person vs another person then 1 class vs another class. But gonna leave it at this. I think your reasoning is too biaised on this topic.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

I see no reason to not count combos as 1 shot. If you do, then technically no class can 1 shot because every class do a combo to pull off such high damage.

trands

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I see no reason to not count combos as 1 shot.

Because it by default assumes the target is just going to let you do whatever you want without reacting.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

trands wrote: »

Because it by default assumes the target is just going to let you do whatever you want without reacting.

You're also assuming that the target can always react.
By your definition, even Gemini Slash isn't a 1 shot, because you could've reacted to Gemini Slash.

Sometimes, the target is simply out of options. That's how people even die in pk.

Arctix - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're also assuming that the target can always react.
By your definition, even Gemini Slash isn't a 1 shot, because you could've reacted to Gemini Slash.

Sometimes, the target is simply out of options. That's how people even die in pk.

By exact same definition a psy too has an equal chance of doing the one hit not to mention in an easy,cost effective, quicker n smexier way. Trands just meant that combo introduces more variables in pk n more the variables more the chance for psys to turn tides.

well technically not meant for zsw but had to quote u :P

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

well, it's one thing to place a debuff but I think that tripple sparks are a bit too much to consider something an one-shot... after all what class can survive a spark undine tripple spark frenzied EP'ed "one-shot"?

btw black + o'malleys > nothing + jones

Rhahiki - Morai

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're also assuming that the target can always react.

His combos involve apo, chi and genies. It's only fair to assume the target disposes of the same means as the attacker. On top of that, combos involve several hits and a longer time, giving the opportunity to react or even to be saved by a luck factor.

If you go behind the 1st hit, there will be a multitude of hypothetical situations coming up and it will become an imagenary duel. Is it even worth to go there ? If you're creative enough, you'll even be able to imagen how to kill a r999 +12 barb on a lvl30 cleric.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

By your definition, even Gemini Slash isn't a 1 shot, because you could've reacted to Gemini Slash.

Already covered this. I see 2 skills that can 1 shot a psychic : gemini and arma. Arma is upclose, so it's unrealistic to get hit by it without having the chance to react. Gemini is ranged, making it way more realistic that it can actually happen.

As a sin, you should also be aware of the fact that being the target = being the one who got hit 1st. Without the 1st hit, there is no fight. Your statement is just a random sentence without meaning.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sometimes, the target is simply out of options. That's how people even die in pk.

Out off options would either mean you choose an easy target which is completely class independant, or that you got a longer lasting fight which by default means you got a though time to kill your target in the first place.

But I doubt you actually read what started the argument between me and Joe. Joe was ranting like he often does on some random class, probably after something that happened ingame before he saw this topic. Last time it was about sins. This time about psychics being the weakest class ever that everyone can 1 hit. From his posts, next time it'll be archers.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Rhahiki - Morai wrote: »

If you're creative enough, you'll even be able to imagen how to kill a r999 +12 barb on a lvl30 cleric.

hit till you exhaust gear durability; kill (the kill part sounds hard even without gear XD)

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Guessing you're trands?

Rhahiki - Morai wrote: »

His combos involve apo, chi and genies. It's only fair to assume the target disposes of the same means as the attacker. On top of that, combos involve several hits and a longer time, giving the opportunity to react or even to be saved by a luck factor.

If the target only counters, they will never kill. If they used up their apo, chi and genie to try killing and fail, then they will have no options left when the opponent pulls off a similar combo.

Rhahiki - Morai wrote: »

If you go behind the 1st hit, there will be a multitude of hypothetical situations coming up and it will become an imagenary duel. Is it even worth to go there ? If you're creative enough, you'll even be able to imagen how to kill a r999 +12 barb on a lvl30 cleric.

I don't know what you're even trying to say. How is level 30 clerics killing a barb even relevant?

Rhahiki - Morai wrote: »

Already covered this. I see 2 skills that can 1 shot a psychic : gemini and arma. Arma is upclose, so it's unrealistic to get hit by it without having the chance to react. Gemini is ranged, making it way more realistic that it can actually happen.

Long channeling time. You can use defense charms, interrupt channeling, psychic will, switch to white, etc etc. Tones of options.
If you assume they used Blade Affinity to instant channel, then by your definition, a gemini is not a 1 shot because Blade Affinity is a combo.

Rhahiki - Morai wrote: »

As a sin, you should also be aware of the fact that being the target = being the one who got hit 1st. Without the 1st hit, there is no fight. Your statement is just a random sentence without meaning.

I don't know what you're even trying to say. Of course someone has to hit the target to start the fight? lol?

Rhahiki - Morai wrote: »

Out off options would either mean you choose an easy target which is completely class independant, or that you got a longer lasting fight which by default means you got a though time to kill your target in the first place.

I don't know what you're even trying to say. Getting 1 shot 15 minutes into the fight is different from getting 1 shot at the beginning of the fight?

Rhahiki - Morai wrote: »

But I doubt you actually read what started the argument between me and Joe. Joe was ranting like he often does on some random class, probably after something that happened ingame before he saw this topic. Last time it was about sins. This time about psychics being the weakest class ever that everyone can 1 hit. From his posts, next time it'll be archers.

No i didn't bother reading arguments between you and someone else. I won't bother because I'm leaving that up to you two. I'm just questioning your decision to not consider a 1 shot a 1 shot simply because it was a combo.

Wizards can 1 shot a lot of people by doing undine strike + a crit on any random skill. But I guess that's not a 1 shot because they had to undine strike and you should run everytime you see undine even though it coolsdown in 1 second?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Guessing you're trands?



If the target only counters, they will never kill. If they used up their apo, chi and genie to try killing and fail, then they will have no options left when the opponent pulls off a similar combo.



I don't know what you're even trying to say. How is level 30 clerics killing a barb even relevant?



Long channeling time. You can use defense charms, interrupt channeling, psychic will, switch to white, etc etc. Tones of options.
If you assume they used Blade Affinity to instant channel, then by your definition, a gemini is not a 1 shot because Blade Affinity is a combo.



I don't know what you're even trying to say. Of course someone has to hit the target to start the fight? lol?



I don't know what you're even trying to say. Getting 1 shot 15 minutes into the fight is different from getting 1 shot at the beginning of the fight?



No i didn't bother reading arguments between you and someone else. I won't bother because I'm leaving that up to you two. I'm just questioning your decision to not consider a 1 shot a 1 shot simply because it was a combo.

Wizards can 1 shot a lot of people by doing undine strike + a crit on any random skill. But I guess that's not a 1 shot because they had to undine strike and you should run everytime you see undine even though it coolsdown in 1 second?

There is undoubtedly a difference, when you hit someone with damage twice, in that case it's still a 'combo' but also not a one shot.

I do agree there are 'combo moves' that could potentially one shot, but if more than one of the attacks in the 'combo' do damage then it is not a one shot.

Also rofl at psychics being the weakest... I really don't mean to be rude, or condescending/snide/whatever you may call this, but seriously wow. I may not know what all they have to do, but I do know psychics are perfectly capable of soloing an absurd amount of hits allowing them the potential for the hated/dreaded (if on wrong end) of a 20 vs 1 fight. Blademasters can't even come close to being able to do this, (unless their opponents are all completely nabs, or in gear that REALLY fails in comparison to r93r... I don't see bms one shotting g15/g16 mixed casters... but casters can so do that to bms... though yes there is more to it... the ornies/rings) I can't tell you how many casters have told me something like this; "I go after blademasters since they are such easy targets, and even if I can't kill them, they can't kill me either," or something along those lines.

---

This isn't meant for any one specific person... but...

Do NOT tell me I don't know how to play my class I know full well how to do it, marrows are a joke in mass pvp, I altar marrow magicals a seeker/archer/even some sins make me pay dearly for it... altar marrow physical I wont even go near for mass pvp. Sins at least have ways to get to people without getting hurt everytime they attack, stealth, deaden nerves, focused mind, tidal protection, etc, not to mention their haxed chi gain. A bm has none of those luxuries making them to be the most disadvantaged class in game period. (A bm will have to get up close to even launch an attack, leaving them open to an onslaught of attacks, without any real way to truly survive it without insanely awesome gear.)

Barb's have their haxed ***'d shields.

Sin's have tidal protection, focused mind, deaden nerves, stealth, not to mention their haxed ability to keep up their chi to get to ppl/keep them locked down.

Seekers, their def lvls + ranged attacks so allow them to do a hell of a lot more than bm's.

Bm's are the sole class that has to get up close, and rely solely on their gear to keep them alive long enough to do anything,(which most bm's don't have the best gear to keep them alive.) Sure they have their marrows... but if you bring this up... you so didn't read my entire post. (marrows are a joke, unless you have insanely awesome gear.) I have played my barb, and my seeker with the exact same gear I have on my bm, and my bm is the only one that gets me so angry in nw, that I want to destroy something irl. (Hulk moment much indeed) Seriously though bm's really are a joke in mass pvp, and I think hearing casters say 'they target bms, because they are easy fodder' is quite a testament at how weak they truly are.

I would actually like to see the marrows 'side effect' get reduced heavily, maybe then we could survive a hell of a lot better in mass pvp, but as it is now... even if we are in earlyish end game gear... hell some who have haxed *** hp/gears are still easy one shots under the right conditions... we are just that easy kills/fodder for the strong one's.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

With Ping included, I highly doubt that you can actually reactively stop a 1 shot combo. A wizard can channel Divine Pyrogram and spark 0.1 second before it finishes. There is no way you can reactively hit soul of fire in that 0.1 second. You would have to predict that the wizard is probably trying to pull off a spark combo, and use soul of fire proactively.

It wouldn't have made a difference if you got 1 shot with or without the wizard using spark. There really is no difference between a combo and a 1 shot.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

With Ping included, I highly doubt that you can actually reactively stop a 1 shot combo. A wizard can channel Divine Pyrogram and spark 0.1 second before it finishes. There is no way you can reactively hit soul of fire in that 0.1 second. You would have to predict that the wizard is probably trying to pull off a spark combo, and use soul of fire proactively.

It wouldn't have made a difference if you got 1 shot with or without the wizard using spark. There really is no difference between a combo and a 1 shot.

I can see what he is getting at and I somewhat agree, a 1-shot is exactly that - taking 1 shot to kill someone. This to me would include combo set ups as long as there is only one damage dealing skill, so amps, debuffs, genie, apo all fall into the 1 shot category.

On thinking about it more a 1 shot could be considered as being a hit that is higher than the max HP of the person you are hitting. So irregardless of what happens prior if you are able to take someone from full HP to zero in a final attack that is still a oneshot. If I was in an extended pk fight, my charm had just ticked to full health then I proceeded to get hit for 30k I would consider that to be a 1 shot.

Joe - Morai

I guess I didn't made clear what I actually meant. It doesn't matter which class can one-shot some other classes. It's about the effectiveness during that process. No matter if that combo involves 1 or 10 skills.

OFC I will pull of my deadly combos the moment my opponent can't do anything. Wise pkers always wait for the right moment to hit. For example....everyone knows the CD of IG and Domain (check genies first anytime!), so it'S not that hard to get a hang of when someone can't protect himself anymore. That would be the moment to strike your combo. And that's why I don't psys as much as the other classes. The most other classes have a boosted def or a skill that could save them with ease. Psys don't have anything like that and even white voodoo won't safe them for too long.

I once battled on my psy against a very very good barb on a different server. It took him over 50 minutes to finally get me killed. It's not like psys can't withstand some dmg if played right. The problem is that psys don't dish out enough dmg to kill anyone while on the other hand get themselfes protected at the same time. As a barb for example you can do anything as long as you got solid shield, you practically can't die.

Like I said before I always do my calculations based on the maximum both players could do in a fight where they actually not just defend themselves but need to start an attack from time to time. If you play purely on defense, you can surely survive a lot with any class. Most classes will die if they fail their max DMG combo. I rate classes with that factor counted in.

Dsholder - Dreamweaver

I chose Barb to PK since Barbarian is #1 when equal gear.


R9 Psy Vs. R9 Barb

HESOKA - Raging Tide

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

A venomancer with r9.3 because their nix eats everyone alive.

the hell? their nix is a 1 shot bud

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary

Any class with stun/sleep/seal/occult ice, 3 spark and faceroll b:chuckle