Demon Roar of the Pride Update.
Zanryu - Dreamweaver
Posts: 7,261 Arc User
Demon Roar of the Pride says it always succeeds. It doesn't say 100% chance, it says always, implying it should work past anti stun (which it does not.) Now, given the description and that it has no real benefit other than a 1 second shorter cooldown and 100% as opposed to like.. what.. 95 of Sage? 90? Something high enough that it really doesn't matter, I vote Demon RotP be updated to work past anti-stun and Tidal Protection.
The game has the technology to make stuns work past antistun if it can do it for a Wizard's Blinding Blaze's freeze effect. Blademasters lack in the damage department unless we spend obscene amounts of chi, why not give us a bit of an edge seeing as we have a skill that's supposed to work 100% of the time? It's only one skill, it'd allow Demons to crowd control better, and seeing as it's only one skill could it really be gamebreaking?
tl,dr
Make Demon RotP truly always stun the target. Even through antistun.
The game has the technology to make stuns work past antistun if it can do it for a Wizard's Blinding Blaze's freeze effect. Blademasters lack in the damage department unless we spend obscene amounts of chi, why not give us a bit of an edge seeing as we have a skill that's supposed to work 100% of the time? It's only one skill, it'd allow Demons to crowd control better, and seeing as it's only one skill could it really be gamebreaking?
tl,dr
Make Demon RotP truly always stun the target. Even through antistun.
Post edited by Zanryu - Dreamweaver on
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Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Demon Roar of the Pride says it always succeeds. It doesn't say 100% chance, it says always, implying it should work past anti stun (which it does not.)
''○Roar of the Pride
Range 5meters
Mana 175.0
Channel 0.6 seconds
Cast 1.8 seconds
Cooldown 15-1 seconds
Weapon Melee weapons
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Void
A raging roar stuns all enemies in a range of 10 meters for 6.0 seconds.
Higher skill level results in higher success rate.
Requires 35 Chi to cast.
Demon version has cooldown reduced by 1 second and always succeeds.''
Where it say it always succeeds? b:question
My BM is only lvl72, so I only can see the demon version description on Ecatomb, but it don't say it always succeeds.
Does the demon description of the skill in game is different than Ecatomb description??[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute0 -
Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »''○Roar of the Pride
Range 5meters
Mana 175.0
Channel 0.6 seconds
Cast 1.8 seconds
Cooldown 15-1 seconds
Weapon Melee weapons
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Void
A raging roar stuns all enemies in a range of 10 meters for 6.0 seconds.
Higher skill level results in higher success rate.
Requires 35 Chi to cast.
Demon version has cooldown reduced by 1 second and always succeeds.''
Where it say it always succeeds? b:question
My BM is only lvl72, so I only can see the demon version description on Ecatomb, but it don't say it always succeeds.
Does the demon description of the skill in game is different than Ecatomb description??
Here.
@Adroit
Not at all. Just something that's always seemed off to me. Now that Wizards have something that bypasses anti-stun, I don't see much reason for Demon RotP to bypass such measures as well. You know, since it "always succeeds". It's one skill and a small update. It has a 14 second cooldown and costs a fair amount of chi, so it's not exactly gamebreaking seeing as only Demons would have access to it.0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Here.
@Adroit
Not at all. Just something that's always seemed off to me. Now that Wizards have something that bypasses anti-stun, I don't see much reason for Demon RotP to bypass such measures as well. You know, since it "always succeeds". It's one skill and a small update. It has a 14 second cooldown and costs a fair amount of chi, so it's not exactly gamebreaking seeing as only Demons would have access to it.
Blinding blaze is not a stun, and if you have immune to debuffs up when I cast the skill.. you resist it. You are asking for something to ignore all counters.. which I find mildly amusing.Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
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I'm so confused.... x-xXx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »''○Roar of the Pride
Range 5meters
Mana 175.0
Channel 0.6 seconds
Cast 1.8 seconds
Cooldown 15-1 seconds
Weapon Melee weapons
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Void
A raging roar stuns all enemies in a range of 10 meters for 6.0 seconds.
Higher skill level results in higher success rate.
Requires 35 Chi to cast.
Demon version has cooldown reduced by 1 second and always succeeds.''
Where it say it always succeeds? b:question
My BM is only lvl72, so I only can see the demon version description on Ecatomb, but it don't say it always succeeds.
Does the demon description of the skill in game is different than Ecatomb description??
If we really were going by the thing of 'class A of humans has a skill that bypasses anti-stuns, so class B of humans should have a skill that bypasses anti-stun, since both of them have an always-succeeds description', then maybe I'd give some mental consideration and not just instantily go 'no.' But that doesn't really seem to be the argument here [since I know Zanny just actually wants a major update to bms], ((Edit::And also, paralyzes are different than stuns are different than seals as said by Adry; like how Stunning Blow bypasses anti-stuns(but not anti-movement buffs) since it's actually a paralysis skill, which is kind of funny given the name) and I don't see any real reason for it to change to be able to waste people's apoth. o_o
"Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Adroit - Lost City wrote: »Blinding blaze is not a stun, and if you have immune to debuffs up when I cast the skill.. you resist it. You are asking for something to ignore all counters.. which I find mildly amusing.
Well, what with the large amount of anti stun Archers have, every HA class having at least one aside from Demon Seekers, and Purify Spell on end game weapons I don't see how it's really that insane to ask for it. Stunlocks are pretty easy to break given the amount of antistun around along with Badge/Fortify/Domain.
I'm aware that Blinding Blaze isn't a stun, I stated that it's a freeze in my original post. The point is it gives you a movement debuff even while using anti movement CC, which is a bit weird seeing as well, you know.. you have up anti movement CC.
What is your argument for not upgrading Demon RotP? Seeing as it's only a 6 second stun, every native anti stun will out-last it aside from a Sage Seeker's. It can still be broken out of with Purify Spell/Badge of Courage. It's not even spammable given then 14 second cooldown and the 35 chi cost. It'd just be a nice update to help the class with some of the lowest damage retain their ability to lock people down.
Come on, someone give me a good reason for not doing it aside from just plain not wanting it. Please b:cuteVeneir - Dreamweaver wrote: »
I'm so confused.... x-x
If we really were going by the thing of 'class A of humans has a skill that bypasses anti-stuns, so class B of humans should have a skill that bypasses anti-stun, since both of them have an always-succeeds description', then maybe I'd give some mental consideration and not just instantily go 'no.' But that doesn't really seem to be the argument here [since I know Zanny just actually wants a major update to bms], and I don't see any real reason for it to change to be able to waste people's apoth. o_o
That's not it at all Venny. I've always thought we should have it bypass antistun because of the description, the wording implies that it would but it doesn't. I was okay with a straight 100% success rate excluding antistun because nothing else could get past it, however with Blinding Blaze around that's not longer the case. It's been ages since I've seen the description for it, so I don't know if it says "always succeeds" or not, but that's not the basis for my argument, I was simply using it as an example.
It's not so much a major update, as a small update that would help BMs do their job better and perhaps force people to rethink how they deal with us.0 -
They should remove ''Higher skill level results in higher success rate.'' on the demon version then.
Well I personally don't think that skill should pass anti-stun, a stun is a stun and a anti-stun is a anti-stun.
It's like if I say I want my AS or plume shot to by pass expel cause I'm a caster and not a melee class.
Expel protect from any physical damage done by melees or casters as anti-stun protect from all stuns even is the skill have no chance to fail.
Plus I think that changing something like that would not be fair for the sage BM that maybe would have chose demon if they knew that RotP would have become to by pass anti-stuns.
It's already frustrating to get kill while in IG and AD that I don't want to get stun while on anti stun.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute0 -
Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »They should remove ''Higher skill level results in higher success rate.'' on the demon version then.
Well I personally don't think that skill should pass anti-stun, a stun is a stun and a anti-stun is a anti-stun.
It's like if I say I want my AS or plume shot to by pass expel cause I'm a caster and not a melee class.
Expel protect from any physical damage done by melees or casters as anti-stun protect from all stuns even is the skill have no chance to fail.
Plus I think that changing something like that would not be fair for the sage BM that maybe would have chose demon if they knew that RotP would have become to by pass anti-stuns.
It's already frustrating to get kill while in IG and AD that I don't want to get stun while on anti stun.
Well as it stands we have a freeze that bypasses it, so either fix that or you know... give the class with the only actual "always succeeding" stun the ability to have that stun truly succeed at all times. Seems fair. Since Blinding Blaze is only eve a % chance to freeze, not 100%.0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »What is your argument for not upgrading Demon RotP? Seeing as it's only a 6 second stun, every native anti stun will out-last it aside from a Sage Seeker's. It can still be broken out of with Purify Spell/Badge of Courage. It's not even spammable given then 14 second cooldown and the 35 chi cost.
My reason? Demon roar is balanced just fine. Also, 35 chi and 14 second cd is cheap/spammable.. roar is arguably the best stun in the game. It is cheap, relatively long aoe stun.. all other stuns are either very costly (1-2 sparks and much longer cooldown), not aoe, short, or some combination. Can't believe you are complaining about it. I wish I could force wog or other 1 spark anti stun on LA every 14 seconds with a cost of 35 chi (or for that matter.. 55 genie energy on fortify or 75 energy on badge). Serious suggestion for you, spend a few weeks learning to pvp before posting about pvp again.. if you ever do learn how to play your bm competently and read back through these threads, I predict you'd be mighty embarrassed by what you've put up for the world to see.Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Since Blinding Blaze is only eve a % chance to freeze, not 100%.
Wrong again.Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
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Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Well as it stands we have a freeze that bypasses it, so either fix that or you know... give the class with the only actual "always succeeding" stun the ability to have that stun truly succeed at all times. Seems fair. Since Blinding Blaze is only eve a % chance to freeze, not 100%.
I dunno, but to me it sound to much OP to put a AOE stun work on anti-stun. :S[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute0 -
Adroit - Lost City wrote: »My reason? Demon roar is balanced just fine. Also, 35 chi and 14 second cd is cheap/spammable.. roar is arguably the best stun in the game. It is cheap, relatively long aoe stun.. all other stuns are either very costly (1-2 sparks and much longer cooldown), not aoe, short, or some combination. Can't believe you are complaining about it. I wish I could force wog or other 1 spark anti stun on LA every 14 seconds with a cost of 35 chi (or for that matter.. 55 genie energy on fortify or 75 energy on badge). Serious suggestion for you, spend a few weeks learning to pvp before posting about pvp again.. if you ever do learn how to play your bm competently and read back through these threads, I predict you'd be mighty embarrassed by what you've put up for the world to see.
You're forgetting that in order to do anything else useful a BM has to exhaust quite a lot of chi. One bash is already one spark gone, in a lot of cases anti stun is necessary to catch up to a target after it's kited. Assuming max chi, the BM has used up 2 sparks and 35 chi on one unfinished stun cycle. Roar on its own can't be used to loop stuns, nor would it going through anti stun prevent people from breaking locks. It would make it a bit easier for one class (the class meant to stunlock) to keep someone in place a bit easier, seeing as no other crowd control skills at their disposal would work past skills/apothecary meant to resist it. Almost all anti stuns are over 6 seconds, meaning it would be difficult to stunlock past it unless it was used near the end of an antistun, but even then the person antistunned would be able to attack or kite.
It's interesting that you assume I make suggestions because I'm incompetent, when it's clear that I'm anything but. These baseless accusations amuse me sir, but considering that all I do is fight people who outgear me and unless they're WAY overgeared I tend to win, even if they aren't the best skilled it seems to me like that would suggest I possess skill, rather than lack it. Oh well, feel free to throw around insults, not like your opinion matters.
In any case, what's funny is you think this would be unbalanced yet you think Purify Spell is 100% fine as it is. This wouldn't be quite as broken as your precious proc. It wouldn't really be broken at all, unless you were fighting an army of BMs with perfect stun timing. Which I very seriously doubt there's a group of more than 3 BMs wandering around pking everyone. Oh, wait, I forgot. Badge of Courage is a thing. As are leaps, seals, freezes, and stuns that can be used against said BMs. Boy oh by, un-resistable roar sure is unbeatable! /sarcasm
Anyway. If you think Demon Roar would be that broken, then tell me how a freeze going through anti stun isn't broken. I'd love to hear this one.
Wrong again.
The Blinding Blaze effect is 100%, however the freeze procing is not. Wrong about me being wrong.
So far the only reason for not implementing this is "I don't want it." With no actual reasoning as to why it would be bad. I'm not saying make all of our stuns go through crowd control, only Demon Roar.
EDIT: It would seem in my haste to get my food I forgot to color my text red. Fixed that.0 -
I'm fine with it working through tidal protection but it shouldn't work through wings of grace. Archers have to burn a full spark for any kind of anti stun. Roar of the pride is only like 35 chi and has a really short cooldown. How would that be fair if a cheap skill nullifies a 1 spark skill? Archers already have the worst defenses in the game and all arcanes and sins have better anti stun at end game.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »I'm fine with it working through tidal protection but it shouldn't work through wings of grace. Archers have to burn a full spark for any kind of anti stun. Roar of the pride is only like 35 chi and has a really short cooldown. How would that be fair if a cheap skill nullifies a 1 spark skill? Archers already have the worst defenses in the game and all arcanes and sins have better anti stun at end game.
Still a more than acceptable update. At least you're constructive.
As I said before I was fine with it not working through anti CC, but as it stands it seems like it should work through a few things. Tidal if anything, since it's not a 100% chance to evade, but only a 50-66% chance. It'd be a nice little perk since the whole issue with fighting sins is getting them in a lock. They're just too slippery.
Though that 35 chi isn't nullifying your whole anti stun, but rather a portion of it. 35 chi to cancel 6/10 of your spark, not quite equal but you'd still be able to remain unlocked and leap/kite away or stun the BM.0 -
"however the freeze procing is not. Wrong about me being wrong."
I wasn't going to respond to your incessant whining, but when you make it this easy.. I just can't resist. The immo proc is 100%.. it has a cooldown, but if you haven't been hit for the past 8 seconds, and the next hit lands while you still have the blinding blaze debuff.. you will get immo'd 100% of the time every time. As usual you are flat out wrong.Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
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Adroit - Lost City wrote: »"however the freeze procing is not. Wrong about me being wrong."
I wasn't going to respond to your incessant whining, but when you make it this easy.. I just can't resist. The immo proc is 100%.. it has a cooldown, but if you haven't been hit for the past 8 seconds, and the next hit lands while you still have the blinding blaze debuff.. you will get immo'd 100% of the time every time. As usual you are flat out wrong.
Screenshot the skill description for me as I did for Bella. I only have ecatomb to go off of, which says it's a chance to freeze. I've had it not proc on me on the first hit a few times, so I figured it was right. Show me the description of the skill in game. I can admit to being wrong when I am, especially considering what information I have to go on as I'm not a Wizard. I can only go by what I've seen and what I've read. Though, whether or not it's 100% holds little relevance, and even if it IS 100% that only goes to strengthen the argument for Roar of the Pride going through anti stun as well.
If Blinding Blaze is 100% there's no good reason it should work through anti stun while RotP does not. "Oh but it's OP" No, that's not a good reason. The ability to freeze someone while an anti CC is in effect is OP as well, even if it's for a shorter duration, that argument is out the window. If one "100%" freeze works, then a stun that always succeeds should as well. Either both of them should work, or neither of them should. End of story.
This isn't really about Blinding Blaze, this is about Roar of the Pride and how it could be updated. Whatever relevance you have in this thread is dwindling fast, especially seeing as you're discussing a different skill entirely without any relevance to the skill this thread is about. I only used it as an example, it's not the subject of this tread.0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Demon Roar of the Pride says it always succeeds. It doesn't say 100% chance, it says always, implying it should work past anti stun (which it does not.) Now, given the description and that it has no real benefit other than a 1 second shorter cooldown and 100% as opposed to like.. what.. 95 of Sage? 90? Something high enough that it really doesn't matter, I vote Demon RotP be updated to work past anti-stun and Tidal Protection.
The game has the technology to make stuns work past antistun if it can do it for a Wizard's Blinding Blaze's freeze effect. Blademasters lack in the damage department unless we spend obscene amounts of chi, why not give us a bit of an edge seeing as we have a skill that's supposed to work 100% of the time? It's only one skill, it'd allow Demons to crowd control better, and seeing as it's only one skill could it really be gamebreaking?
tl,dr
Make Demon RotP truly always stun the target. Even through antistun.
-Ignores everything previously said cause I'm too lazy to go read it lol-
An interesting concept but for once Zambie I'm going to have to disagree with your idea...
Roar is a "stun" right? and the whole concept behind an "anti-stun" is that it combats a stun.
-And if this rule was to be bent then it would be changing some of the main mechanics of the game.
Even though it does say it always succeeds I think it is fair that it does not work through anti-stuns, because if it did then I think for some classes like my own who have very little way of extracting themselves from being stun locked without use of apoth (I mean we have one anti stun skill that has a C/D of 1 minute, oh wait, 2 skills if you include a %50 change to avoid negative statuses?) would be more screwed than they already are.
-Maybe the wording of the skill description should be chanced to avoid situations like this one?
And on another note at least it does work 100% of the time when anti-stuns are not applied. unlike seekers 100% chance to immobilize skill. stupid broken **** >.>'[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »-Ignores everything previously said cause I'm too lazy to go read it lol-
An interesting concept but for once Zambie I'm going to have to disagree with your idea...
Roar is a "stun" right? and the whole concept behind an "anti-stun" is that it combats a stun.
-And if this rule was to be bent then it would be changing some of the main mechanics of the game.
It wouldn't really be changing anything seeing as we have a freeze that bypasses anti-crowd control. No actual mechanics would be changed, a stun would be able to bypass anti-CC as well. One stun, from one class, which has a shorter duration than all but 1 native anti-stun. Even with it going through anti-CC you still get quite a bit of use and get away. Not to mention Badge out or Fortify to break the next stun in the cycle. It wouldn't make our insanely hard to break, it would just take more skill.
Even though it does say it always succeeds I think it is fair that it does not work through anti-stuns, because if it did then I think for some classes like my own who have very little way of extracting themselves from being stun locked without use of apoth (I mean we have one anti stun skill that has a C/D of 1 minute, oh wait, 2 skills if you include a %50 change to avoid negative statuses?) would be more screwed than they already are.
-Maybe the wording of the skill description should be chanced to avoid situations like this one?
Seekers aren't too screwed against a BM when it comes to 1v1. In group PvP possible, because of everyone else hitting them, but that's not because of a BM's stuns that's because of all the damage coming their way. You're neglecting to mention that Seekers have insane damage potential for a heavy armor class. Seekers tend to hit me harder than I can hit them without even having to invest as much Strength as I have and this isn't including the QPQ combos. Now, if a Seeker uses that combo and it goes unresisted it can hit for insane amounts of damage even on other HA, that HA being a BM in this case. A BM will not be able to put out that kind of damage on a Seeker unless they spend 5 sparks and a good amount of genie energy. Even then, it's easy to avoid/hard to pull off at the start of a fight, and only gets harder as the fight drags on unless they can conserve chi. Which is impossible while keep a target stunlocked, the chi drain from it is far too massive. Also, a BM's super hax combo will only do a little over half what a Seeker's metal zerk crit can.
It's an ideal situation, but it's one that you have to be very careful to avoid, not to mention the genie energy and chi it takes to lock you down and drain your chi so you can't spam it every 30 seconds. What's more broken, the chance to be blasted for 20k every 30 seconds or a 6 second 100% stun?
And on another note at least it does work 100% of the time when anti-stuns are not applied. unlike seekers 100% chance to immobilize skill. stupid broken **** >.>'
Well of course it does, it's 100%. However as it stands if one skill bypasses anti-CC all of them should if they have that description. However broken or unbroken it may be, that or change the descriptions, or make no skills bypass it.
wub u0 -
-xnip-
No but in all seriousness. There's been lots of reasonings behind not supporting it, Zanny--and the only reason 'for' it is that you want it, too, if you're going by that 3:< --not only that an AoE skill that stuns (let alone any skill) shouldn't go through apoth/anti-stuns... but just that a stun going through an anti-stun is rediculous! Anti-stuns block stuns, anti-paralyze/freeze skills block paralyzes and freexes, and seal-breakers break seals! Saying that a skill/item shouldn't do what it's supposed to do is stupid! 3:< If wizard skills indeed to put a /freeze/(as indicated by the icon that causes the freeze looking like this )through the bmy bodwhatever it was buff that makes bmys immune to freezes and stuns, or other freeze preventing buffs, then it should be fixed to not go through them and work as it says it does, within the game mechanics, because that's how anti-whatevers work. You shouldn't fix a bug with another purposeful bug that's nonsensical. 3:<"Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Not a double post afterall, since there was a trolling attempt. Hooray. I won't be responding to the post before this one. Oh, there's a Venny post after it. Darn ninja deerfoxxy.Adroit - Lost City wrote: »"however the freeze procing is not. Wrong about me being wrong."
I wasn't going to respond to your incessant whining, but when you make it this easy.. I just can't resist. The immo proc is 100%.. it has a cooldown, but if you haven't been hit for the past 8 seconds, and the next hit lands while you still have the blinding blaze debuff.. you will get immo'd 100% of the time every time. As usual you are flat out wrong.
So, give me a moment. I just want to bask in the glory of how completely wrong you are. See, I had never had a good look at the skill description, but the skill had not always proc'd on me 100% of the time so I figured it would not do so. This was backed up by Ecatomb's undetailed description. However, after a quick 3 second search I found this little gem. It shows the skill's description and proves you 100% undeniably utterly and completely wrong. The immobilization is only a % chance to proc. I'm sorry, I'm still basking in how wrong you are after all of this arrogant talk about how I'm a fail at my class, have no skill, and make stupid suggestions you can't even get a description of a skill used by your own class correct. Okay, back on topic: This means that as it is not a 100%/always succeeding skill anti-stun/freeze should prevent it, yet does not.
That leaves us with a few options:
1. It's a bug and should be fixed (And Demon RotP should have its description fixed)
2. It's intentional for whatever reason, and should be fixed (And Demon RotP should have its description fixed)
3. The description should be updated to accurately reflect how it works, and Demon RotP should receive the same ability to bypass anti-CC.
Those are about the only truly fair options I can think of. No other skills that always succeed or have a "100%" chance come to mind. They all just stun the target with an assumed 100% chance, since there's no % chance in the description. They just say stun the target. That seems fine, as those being blocked by anti-CC means its doing its job.
Ah.. I'm sorry, did anyone else see how delightfully wrong Adroit was?
I think I'll stop replying to his posts until he says something constructive, I don't want my thread derailed. I'd like constructive discussions, not blatant trolling. Even I have times where I dont' think it's appropriate.0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »It wouldn't really be changing anything seeing as we have a freeze that bypasses anti-crowd control. No actual mechanics would be changed, a stun would be able to bypass anti-CC as well. One stun, from one class, which has a shorter duration than all but 1 native anti-stun. Even with it going through anti-CC you still get quite a bit of use and get away. Not to mention Badge out or Fortify to break the next stun in the cycle. It wouldn't make our insanely hard to break, it would just take more skill.
-freeze takes a lot more chi than Roar and also has a lot longer C/D I don't think I have actually seen a Wiz use the skill in actual pk... unlike Roar which is absolutely spammed to death.
And you are limiting getting out a stun to just genie alone, and to me that seems just a little too limited to me... I have a damn Dex Genie I'd never have the Energy to get out of stuns if couldn't use my ...er.. 1 anti stun skill lol.
Seekers aren't too screwed against a BM when it comes to 1v1. In group PvP possible, because of everyone else hitting them, but that's not because of a BM's stuns that's because of all the damage coming their way. You're neglecting to mention that Seekers have insane damage potential for a heavy armor class. Seekers tend to hit me harder than I can hit them without even having to invest as much Strength as I have and this isn't including the QPQ combos. Now, if a Seeker uses that combo and it goes unresisted it can hit for insane amounts of damage even on other HA, that HA being a BM in this case. A BM will not be able to put out that kind of damage on a Seeker unless they spend 5 sparks and a good amount of genie energy. Even then, it's easy to avoid/hard to pull off at the start of a fight, and only gets harder as the fight drags on unless they can conserve chi. Which is impossible while keep a target stunlocked, the chi drain from it is far too massive. Also, a BM's super hax combo will only do a little over half what a Seeker's metal zerk crit can.
It's an ideal situation, but it's one that you have to be very careful to avoid, not to mention the genie energy and chi it takes to lock you down and drain your chi so you can't spam it every 30 seconds. What's more broken, the chance to be blasted for 20k every 30 seconds or a 6 second 100% stun?
Well. I rarely use the metal QPQ combo because it takes the fun out of pk and also takes 0 skill to do. but that's just me >.>.
I don't think I've ever hit a BM in Mag Marrow for that much with it though (unless they where very under geared) also the easy combat to that is HoS. which is quite spammable. xD It has the same C/D as the Metal combo, 30 seconds! who would have guessed? o_o.
Well of course it does, it's 100%. However as it stands if one skill bypasses anti-CC all of them should if they have that description. However broken or unbroken it may be, that or change the descriptions, or make no skills bypass it.
Okay I will agree with what you have said here. but the description of the skill should be changed not the skill it'self.Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »wub u
*dies from over use of the color red*
Making me do all this work Zambie
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Queen of Silly, circa 2014, as conferred by the late great Proski Wallace.0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Ah.. I'm sorry, did anyone else see how delightfully wrong Adroit was?
I think I'll stop replying to his posts until he says something constructive, I don't want my thread derailed. I'd like constructive discussions, not blatant trolling. Even I have times where I dont' think it's appropriate.
o_o Androit also has experience with using that skill, which is something you do not have, just in case you're forgetting that. If it indeed goes through anti-stuns I wouldn't put it past it to also proc. 100% like it shouldn't according to the description.
"Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Veneir - Dreamweaver wrote: »
And also veno purge should be able to be used without a target and have a 20 meter range of effect for both demon and sage
No but in all seriousness. There's been lots of reasonings behind not supporting it, Zanny--and the only reason 'for' it is that you want it, too, if you're going by that 3:< --not only that an AoE skill that stuns (let alone any skill) shouldn't go through apoth/anti-stuns... but just that a stun going through an anti-stun is rediculous! Anti-stuns block stuns, anti-paralyze/freeze skills block paralyzes and freexes, and seal-breakers break seals! Saying that a skill/item shouldn't do what it's supposed to do is stupid! 3:< If wizard skills indeed to put a /freeze/(as indicated by the icon that causes the freeze looking like this )through the bmy bodwhatever it was buff that makes bmys immune to freezes and stuns, or other freeze preventing buffs, then it should be fixed to not go through them and work as it says it does, within the game mechanics, because that's how anti-whatevers work. You shouldn't fix a bug with another purposeful bug that's nonsensical. 3:<
The thing is, none of those skills specifically state that they always succeed. Skills that stay 100% accuracy do not miss. Under any circumstance unless fully resisted by Expel/Absolute Domain/Sutra Power Orb/other damage immunity skills. Side note, those would all still work to negate RotP with the exception of Expel. Anyway, those all negate damage from 100% accuracy skills however accuracy boosting moves do not Archers can use their 1,000% evasion buff and they will still hit, it's very much the same concept with Demon RotP landing through anti-stun.
As I said in my previous post, there are a few suggestions that can fix this whole issue.Veneir - Dreamweaver wrote: »
o_o Androit also has experience with using that skill, which is something you do not have, just in case you're forgetting that. If it indeed goes through anti-stuns I wouldn't put it past it to also proc. 100% like it shouldn't according to the description.
I don't have experience using it, but I have experience against it. My view on it is very relevant. The description specifically states it's a chance, myself and Zheii have had it only work a handful of times when used against us, not 100%. Either Adroit is blatantly lying to back up what he says, or he's flat out wrong about his own skill and surrenders any credibility he had when discussing it. Either way, my statements remain valid.0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Double post time:
The thing is, none of those skills specifically state that they always succeed. Skills that stay 100% accuracy do not miss. Under any circumstance unless fully resisted by Expel/Absolute Domain/Sutra Power Orb/other damage immunity skills. Side note, those would all still work to negate RotP with the exception of Expel. Anyway, those all negate damage from 100% accuracy skills however accuracy boosting moves do not Archers can use their 1,000% evasion buff and they will still hit, it's very much the same concept with Demon RotP landing through anti-stun.
As I said in my previous post, there are a few suggestions that can fix this whole issue.
Zanny that is 0% relevant to what I said [therefore if that is your only reasoning, it is not speaking to people; get new reasoning for your debate, or fail in that and join us on saying no 3:< because it's dumb] and also that was not a double post in the least x3"Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Veneir - Dreamweaver wrote: »
Zanny that is 0% relevant to what I said [therefore if that is your only reasoning, it is not speaking to people; get new reasoning for your debate, or fail in that and join us on saying no 3:< because it's dumb] and also that was not a double post in the least x3
How is it not relevant? My issue is with how two skills in particular work at the moment, one bypassing anti-CC with only a % chance to work, while the other that should always succeed does not. This makes no sense. It's relevant because none of the skills in question that are resisted by anti-stun/freeze/seal specifically state that they will always succeed. It may be an issue of wording, but considering that one of the skills I'm referring to works through anti stun that means it's possible to implement, meaning the other skill I'm referring to should be able to bypass antistun. Or have the first skill fixed so we can all go back to our merry days of fun before this thread existed.
It being dumb is your opinion, but here's the thing.
1. BMs are meant to lock. We're support, not DDs. Improving our lock helps that.
2. All but 1 native anti stun will out-last Demon RotP, allowing a lock to be broken.
3. Genie skills can still be used to break the rest of the lock, or break out of RotP.
4. Apothecary can be used in combination with genie to break the lock, as can class skills.
5. Certain classes still have leaps/stealth which can be used.
6. Counter stuns/seals/sleeps can still be used once the initial roar is up.
7. Most importantly, only ONE skill in the stunlocking arsenal would receive this boost. Everything else is still resisted by anti-stun, meaning locks are still very breakable. It would simply require more conservative use of anti-stun/apo/genie. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. If I recall a certain Wizard was telling people to get more skilled to deal with Purify Spell. It's the exact same thing here, it would require a bit more skill to kill a BM 1v1 and deal with one in group PvP.0 -
Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »-freeze takes a lot more chi than Roar and also has a lot longer C/D I don't think I have actually seen a Wiz use the skill in actual pk... unlike Roar which is absolutely spammed to death.
And you are limiting getting out a stun to just genie alone, and to me that seems just a little too limited to me... I have a damn Dex Genie I'd never have the Energy to get out of stuns if couldn't use my ...er.. 1 anti stun skill lol.
Blinding Blaze lasts for 45 seconds, Roar can be used 3 times for 5 chi more than the spark it takes to cast. It can proc ever 8 seconds, assuming it proc'd perfectly it can freeze a total of 5 times. That's 18 seconds, the same total time as all three Roars. Chances are though that it would only proc a total duration of two Roars, but still. That's not very much worse, and you're forgetting every hit can set it off. That means the Wizard is doing a lot of damage while being able to freeze someone from a range. The BM has to be in the Wizard's face, along with keeping them locked down which between genies, apo, and Purify Spell is very difficult.
Well. I rarely use the metal QPQ combo because it takes the fun out of pk and also takes 0 skill to do. but that's just me >.>.
I don't think I've ever hit a BM in Mag Marrow for that much with it though (unless they where very under geared) also the easy combat to that is HoS. which is quite spammable. xD It has the same C/D as the Metal combo, 30 seconds! who would have guessed? o_o.
Whether or not you use it is irrelevant, the combo is there and usable. You don't need to use the metal version either, you could very well use it for physical attacks. Gemini Slash is a very hard hitting attack, especially if the BM is Magic Marrowed in preperation for metal spam. Heart of Steel isn't going to help against physical attacks. Metal combos hit hard, but so do physical combos. The point is Seekers put out extremely high damage compared to a BM using the same amount of chi.
Okay I will agree with what you have said here. but the description of the skill should be changed not the skill it'self.
I've already posted suggestions.
wub u moar0 -
Perfect stunlock would make BMs like warriors in that other place where backstab is GG for every class due to lack of anti-CC...Channels
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »I'm fine with it working through tidal protection but it shouldn't work through wings of grace. Archers have to burn a full spark for any kind of anti stun. Roar of the pride is only like 35 chi and has a really short cooldown. How would that be fair if a cheap skill nullifies a 1 spark skill? Archers already have the worst defenses in the game and all arcanes and sins have better anti stun at end game.
Wing of grace have 30 seconds cooldown, cost 1 spark for 15 seconds of anti-stun.
There's other class like that, mystic have only one anti-stun of 60 seconds cooldown, cost 1 spark as well and the anti stun is 6 seconds (lvl10 and demon) and 9 seconds (sage).
Sage venomancer only have one anti stun and it's the morai skill Natural Synergy that cost 1 spark and have 120 seconds cooldown and it's 10 sec anti-stun.
Cleric don't even have anti-stun.
Imagine a cleric in NW that see a BM coming, use a vacuity powder and still get stun, the cleric lose a pot for nothing, plus cannot use something else cause of the cooldown of 2 minutes.
For people that PVP everyday they can learn which BM is demon and have RotP lvl11, in TW with some time can as well learn who have it, but in NW you don't see the name and don't know which BM is sage or demon and if they have it lvl11, so a lot of people will complain about losing pots and cooldown of 2 minutes without getting the effect anti-stun of the pot.
RotP demon have 14 seconds cooldown and cost 35 chi (plus cannot fail unless anti-stun), archer anti-stun 30 seconds cooldown for 15 seconds anti-stun, mystic have 60 seconds cooldown for 6 or 9 seconds anti-stun, sage veno 120 seconds cooldown for 10 seconds anti-stun, all 3 skills cost 1 spark, considering cleric don't have anti-stun let's give him a vacuity powder pot which have 120 seconds cooldown for 20 seconds anti-stun.
Asking PWI to make demon RotP work on some class or against some anti-stun skills, but not the others would be too much work for them. XD[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute0 -
The only counter to stuns are to Antistun and sit there, we don't have apo, genies, or the ability to run so this would be OP. It does not give a perfect stunlock, as it's one skill. Anything longer than it still allows you to stop a lock. Genies can still be used. How does nobody understand this?
The length and cost of anti stuns aren't much of a factor seeing as roar is 100% outside of Antistun anyway. This makes it a matter of locking people through Antistun, which will not happen unless that persons just can't play. All but 1 anti stun will let you break a lock of used before roar, even if it stuns you. you can still genie out. If you lack an anti stun skill it's irrelevant. It basically means smarter use of apo. A few less attacks every 14 seconds assuming you can't kite or stun/sleep the BM, and that's about it. Tell me, does anyone here think it will make BMs unkillable? Will it make them do insane damage? If so list why. I'm going to bed, I'll reply tomorrow or something. Night y'all.0 -
I will post the same thing that I posted to you before not on-forum, mostily because I said that I would maths your thread, and I will do it 3:!
"I still think all your points are dumb and that they 0% justify the argument, simpily /because/ what the argument itself is cannot be justified. It's not about unbalancing bms, or breaking the game, or monstrosities, [or making bms unbeatable, or relevant to any class in particular whatsoever.] But I'm someone who knows debuffs and buffs and whatnot [well enough, being a veno and cleric who's overily aspgsag about them], and a debuff that goes through a buff that SPECIFICAILLY BLOCKS THAT DEBUFF makes no sense at all-- and why would you ever do that ON PURPOSE to a skill.
{{Don't mind me quoting you Zanny since it's a transition thing:
Passively blocking debuffs 66% of the time makes 0 sense as well.
Just saying.}}
I don't care about sins 3:<
And it is still something that if imputted into a forumla can work, dumb or whatnot it may be
but simply IGNORING a mechanic, that cannot be excused.
{{Well sure it can. It obviously is, given that Blinding Blaze works as it does}}
Nonono! You're not talking about BB! (I still think calling it that is stupid) You were the one who said you weren't talking about BB! But you ARE the one talking about BB! And it can't be [excused], it should be fixed! It has no excuse 3:< This isn't about being difficult it's about not breaking the function
You can't have something that's [-9, 3)U(3,5)U(5,7] include 3 and 5 3:< And just as 3 and 5 break that function, you cannot have skills break that function. And if the wizard skill is a 3 then it can't be in there and it's irrelevant to something that's 1(being the roar skill)! And in the function! That 1 should not become a 3 or a 5!"
This conversation isn't about genies don't even bring it there. 3:< You have no valid point to justify breaking the function other than 'because you want to'. I know that you think bms need something done for them; at least find something that can be inclusive in the formulas we have and not just blatantily disregard them. Why on earth should an acceptable solution ever be one skill just not adhering to those rules, regardless of any and all sakngsdgn that can be provided, if for all other cases, those are in place.
Awwwh.... how little space the maths takes on here makes me sad. >:
"Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Queen of Silly, circa 2014, as conferred by the late great Proski Wallace.0 -
Veneir - Dreamweaver wrote: »I will post the same thing that I posted to you before not on-forum, mostily because I said that I would maths your thread, and I will do it 3:!
"I still think all your points are dumb and that they 0% justify the argument, simpily /because/ what the argument itself is cannot be justified. It's not about unbalancing bms, or breaking the game, or monstrosities, [or making bms unbeatable, or relevant to any class in particular whatsoever.] But I'm someone who knows debuffs and buffs and whatnot [well enough, being a veno and cleric who's overily aspgsag about them], and a debuff that goes through a buff that SPECIFICAILLY BLOCKS THAT DEBUFF makes no sense at all-- and why would you ever do that ON PURPOSE to a skill.
Similar to the way a skill that previously had no secondary effects that gains one at level 11? Your logic is pretty much "things that change make no sense". Granted, I'm using it in a different context, but the idea is the same. There are things that are upgraded to go through their counter-measures all the time. Throughout the game class interaction changes as characters level skills and gear up. The counters to those classes change because the gameplay changes, it would be no different with Demon RotP, the gameplay would change as would the countermeasures required.
{{Don't mind me quoting you Zanny since it's a transition thing:
Passively blocking debuffs 66% of the time makes 0 sense as well.
Just saying.}}
I don't care about sins 3:<
And it is still something that if imputted into a forumla can work, dumb or whatnot it may be
but simply IGNORING a mechanic, that cannot be excused.
{{Well sure it can. It obviously is, given that Blinding Blaze works as it does}}
Nonono! You're not talking about BB! (I still think calling it that is stupid) You were the one who said you weren't talking about BB! But you ARE the one talking about BB! And it can't be [excused], it should be fixed! It has no excuse 3:< This isn't about being difficult it's about not breaking the function
You can't have something that's [-9, 3)U(3,5)U(5,7] include 3 and 5 3:< And just as 3 and 5 break that function, you cannot have skills break that function. And if the wizard skill is a 3 then it can't be in there and it's irrelevant to something that's 1(being the roar skill)! And in the function! That 1 should not become a 3 or a 5!"
It wouldn't be ignoring a mechanic, it would be specifically designed to bypass it. Taking a mechanic into consideration and creating something to bypass it =/= ignoring it. If the mechanic were ignored then all stuns/freezes/sleeps would bypass anti-stun, which as you know is not the case nor is that what I'm asking for. The only reason I brought up Blinding Blaze is because when Demon RotP didn't truly always succeed, I was fine with that because there was nothing else that could go through antistun. Now we have Blinding Blaze, which isn't even a 100% chance to work which is able to. Considering what each of the two classes are meant for, and one of those classes has a skill that's supposed to always work, I fail to see why it shouldn't when Blinding Blaze can go through. I don't care to discuss the mechanics of Blinding Blaze as a skill, simply that it feezes through antistun. It's being used as an example, not as something to discuss.
This conversation isn't about genies don't even bring it there. 3:< You have no valid point to justify breaking the function other than 'because you want to'. I know that you think bms need something done for them; at least find something that can be inclusive in the formulas we have and not just blatantily disregard them. Why on earth should an acceptable solution ever be one skill just not adhering to those rules, regardless of any and all sakngsdgn that can be provided, if for all other cases, those are in place.
Awwwh.... how little space the maths takes on here makes me sad. >:
How is it not about genies? If we're using math, genies are part of the equation. You can't remove parts of the equations to make it work because it's convenient, genies factor in making them relevant to discussion.
All dis text.0
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