Gear advice on soloing TT 3-3
carbonarapasta
Posts: 10 Arc User
Hi all,
To keep things short, the goal for my gear is this :
http://pwcalc.com/9494bc301f3c9dfb
Note : I am sharing gears with my BM. I already have all of the gears stated minus the +10 refine.
Any comments or advice?
Thank you.
To keep things short, the goal for my gear is this :
http://pwcalc.com/9494bc301f3c9dfb
Note : I am sharing gears with my BM. I already have all of the gears stated minus the +10 refine.
Any comments or advice?
Thank you.
Post edited by carbonarapasta on
0
Comments
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I'm not entirely opposed to fist sins, especially if sage. It looks like you're demon (3.33 aps unsparked so I assume 5 aps demon sparking?), is that correct?
My other question is how well does your BM solo 3-3? That build has both less dd and less defenses than what I expect from an aps BM, but sins can Focused Mind, Rib Strike, and repaint themselves when needed. BMs can bell spam and marrow. I think the survivability prolly favors BMs but in a very different way so just curious how you do.
The main advantage I see with this build over just using your bm is Rib Strike and being able to stealth past mobs or shadow leap through doors but since there is a mob count anyways you kind of lose that advantage.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
It seems to me you throw away all the reasons to build a sin when you go fists instead of daggers.
You have to swich weapons to use your skills. And you dont have the imbalance thingy that goes for sins in dex being good for both damage, crit and acc.
Whats the reason to build a sin if you dont use its advantages it has compared to your BM ?0 -
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that if the sin is an alt, the main BM would be used to clear the mobs count (and honestly that wouldn't be hard if the sins gears are coming from the BM).
Most of the bosses don't purge in 3-3 though, so I am wondering why he thinks it is necessary to use a sin. I am not terribly familiar with BMs but I am betting a similarly buffed BM with those same gears would have an easier time with the bosses (except for Colluseast).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sorry for the late reply, all.
@Saku :
Yes, both my Sin and BM are Demon.
1. It is doable to solo TT 3-3 with my BM, but it is both pot and charm r*pe for me, even with marrow and Bell spam. To put this in context, this is the gear setup that I am using for my BM, which is slightly different, but has very similar stat outcome : http://pwcalc.com/b53912c690fafaa7
Summary comparison from both setup :
BM = 2.86/4.0 aps, higher dmg (fist mastery), slightly better pdef and mdef with demon magical marrow, 4000 accuracy
Sin = 3.33/5.0 aps, lower damage (no fist mastery), slightly lower pdef and mdef, 3200 accuracy
2. Indeed, we can totally ignore stealth due to the necessary mob counts. The main reason I am leaning towards Sin, is due to overwhelming numbers of :
Defensive maneuvers : Rib Strike, Focused Mind, Tidal Protection, Deaden Nerves
Offensive maneuvers : Wolf Emblem, Power Dash
3. So far with BM, I have only used Demon Bell and Heaven Flame throughout the run. This seems pale in comparison, compared to Sin's skills mentioned above. This, and also the fact that I hate spamming Demon Bell every spark ~15sec.
@Hruns :
Indeed, I am 120% agree to the idea that classic pure-dex LA sin beat this HA Fist sin, out of the water. However, I have been playing the game all this time under this assumption :
Normal low-mid refine LA sin would definitely have survivability issue soloing high-level instance.
It is however, completely feasible and efficient once high refine gears are acquired.
Thus, it was my preference to focus on HA gear for my BM, instead of LA gear for my Sin.
Another thing that pushes me towards HA, was, I spent quite sometime in every TT 3-3 boss fight, paralyzed (stun, sleep, seal). I can survive by getting hp back from BP, that's great. However, in cases when I am unable to attack, I need to be able to survive until the paralyze is off. This is when the high pdef and mdef from HA comes in handy.
Please note, this was my old assumption before I realise Focused Mind basically offers similar advantage.
(This is another interesting topic to discuss, imo - def stat vs focused mind).
Of course, I can always gear up my Sin to be a pure dex LA sin. However, spending another 1.5 1.5 -2billions to acquire +10 LA gears, is really not the luxury that I can afford at this time.
If I had known the true capabilities of sin back then, I would definitely focus on LA gear for my sin, instead of my BM.
@Fissile :
1. I usually do the whole run on BM, the Sin just tailing behind to provide BP whenever it wears off.
2. Yes, I do think it is very nice that none of the bosses purge. Imagine if they do.
3. I am not expecting to complete the run in much faster time than what the BM does. I am aware that the damage is severely gimped by making a HA Fist Sin. However, what I do expect is considerable jump in survivability (HA pdef+mdef combined with Focused Mind, etc.) - am I too naive to have such thought?0 -
More than often, bosses you tank at melee range will do physical melee damage to you. So you might have more survivability if you switch to physical ornaments when tanking bosses. And I think you might have forgotten the refinements on your rings in the calc.0
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That makes sense. However, instead of having 14k pdef and 5k mdef, I would rather have 12k pdef and 9k mdef. The occassional magic attack from boss is also things that kills most people. I think it is more about finding the right balance.
I am ignoring the refine on ring, as I already have quite high pdef value. Of course it would be nice to have that refined as well, but I won't notice any noticeable difference, even with +5 refine. Only +10 refine will start to add another 1k-1.5k to my pdef, that's when you can start to notice the subtle upgrade.0 -
For HA sin..what did you stat each level? 3str 2 dex?0
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Yes, but I cap the Dex as soon as I reach 160-170.
If you want to see more details, feel free to see my setup @ first post.0 -
carbonarapasta wrote: »Yes, but I cap the Dex as soon as I reach 160-170.
If you want to see more details, feel free to see my setup @ first post.0 -
It is definitely up to your decision, but every pros here (including the amateur me) would say it is a very bad idea. In my opinion, if you are still working up your sin, it is much better and rewarding in the future to focus on the classic pure-dex LA armor Dagger sin.0
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You have Contra:
Around 20% less Critrate then any dagger sin
Around 4000 less Accuracy
Around 2000 Evasion
Lose the flexibility of using Skills quick in the act (Switch to daggers can kill you)
Around (+7 g16 Dagger, no Phy attack addons) 2000 less Phy attack
But you have Pro:
6000 More Phy DEF (78% to 67% Reduction) <- Average geared APS Sin
4000 More M DEF (71% to 59% Reduction) <- Average geared APS Sin
More HP (At average Sin with TT99 around 5000 HP), depends on Sin gear setup and Stones.
Its sth not usual, maybe it works fine because of the defense, maybe it doesnt work out like you want it to be.
I would say, it doesnt cover that, what you are expecting. The Damage you deal will be very low compared to a sin with daggers. The sin could do your job with fist in a way less time and starting a second run while you are doing the first one still.
The crit + phy attack loss is what kills it, you will kill slow and maybe your BP wont cover the HP you lose. Some sins even have problems recover after a large hit even when using Daggers. 5000~ HP wont be healed within time to be full again for the next boss hit (except my using HF).
I think you are better off with either rolling a BM with that gear or going just dagger sin and get a BM buddy to duo it. Way faster and way easier too.
Just my 2 cents b:victory0 -
The cons that you listed are correct.
However, to put this into perspective. I created two gear setups :
PWcalc URL Edited, credits to dblazen :
LA dagger sin with +7 Armors : http://pwcalc.com/77a1baa90f6c1c79
HA fist sin with +7 Armors : http://pwcalc.com/cfd42fc18202be5b
Patk per hit = 18203 vs 15734
Crit % = 36% vs 19%
Acc = 7400 vs 3200
HP = 12600 vs 9100
Pdef = 68% vs 77%
Mdef = 62% vs 66%
Eva = 3100 vs 1400
Damage wise, no one can deny that the LA dagger sin is much superior, correct?
Just to provide a comparison on total damage per hit :
LA dagger sin = 18203 (patk) * 1.36 (crit) = 24,756
HA fist sin = 15734 (patk) * 1.19 (crit) = 18,723
Thus, using the HA sin setup basically reduce the damage by (24756 - 18723) / 24756 =24.4%
24.4% damage lost, is it huge? of course.
Does it worth the increase in HP and def ? maybe.
But personally, I don't think 24.4% damage is that "big" of a lost as you might have assumed.
I would like to get everyone opinion on this, especially the drop of accuracy and evasion? does this affect greatly in boss fights?
Also, please note that you will take less damage from boss due to the increased def, so you basically require less amount of HP gained from BP. This is also subject to discussion, does the increased defense == less amount of HP from BP?
One thing to note, without putting Wolf Emblem + Power Dash vs Heaven Flame into equation, this BM setup actually does less damage than HA fist Sin, due to loss of APS (2.86 / 4.0 aps)
http://pwcalc.com/bee4d1a41b88b61e
If I am to compare the damage of the HA Fist BM +7 armor with the previous HA Fist Sin +7 armor above :
Patk per hit = 17587 vs 15734
Crit % = 20% vs 19%
Acc = 3800 vs 3200
APS = 4.0 vs 5.0
Damage per hit
HA fist bm = 17587 (patk) * 1.2 (crit) = 21,104
HA fist sin = 15734 (patk) * 1.19 (crit) = 18,723
Damage per second
HA fist bm = 21104 (dph) * 4.0 (aps) = 84,417
HA fist sin = 18723(dph) * .0 (aps) = 93,615
Percentage : (93615 - 84417) / 84417 = 10.9%
The HA fist sin deals 10.9% more damage than similarly geared HA fist BM with Demon fist-mastery.
It's shocking, isn't it?0 -
you compare a 4aps bm to a 5aps sin. Shockingly unreasonable.
As for the paint heals vs less damage. Yes it should even out your armor makes you take also about 24% less damage, so you should have the same balance of paint heals vs damage taken with 24% less damage dealt as well. Everything is just going 24% slower so there is 24% more time for disasters to happen
On the other hand of course, you have a bigger health pool and the higher armor increase the efficiency of other healing sources like pots and ToP.
So it evens out kinda, just remains the fact that you need to swich weapons to use your skills.
http://pwcalc.com/3cdbd41537ae9ffc
http://pwcalc.com/302b9c4e5dbc0989
move points from vit to str and change some refinements if you want to compare.0 -
Well, I agree under normal circumstances comparing 4aps with 5aps is unfair.
However, you need to understand my reason behind it. The only way I can make the BM 5aps is by taking off the HA G16 Boots + Arm, and replaced it with Ashura's Boots and Arm.
Not only will I lost quite a few hundreds HP from downgrading 2 pieces of G16->G12, I also lost considerable pdef and mdef. This defeat my main purpose to create a def-balanced character.
(Instead of 15000 pdef / 5500 mdef, I would rather have 14000 pdef / 10000 mdef)
I do agree with your point that run will be 25% slower. Thus, 25% more risk.
Given the options, would you rather use 2x Lunar rings or 2x CoA rings?
Edit:
My miss, I forgot to add Demon Magic Marrow to your BM setup, which turns 15000 / 5500 def to 10000/ 10000, which is not bad.
I guess 5aps with 10000 / 10000 def is better than 4aps 14000 / 10000 def ?0 -
carbonarapasta wrote: »The cons that you listed are correct.
However, to put this into perspective. I created two gear setups :
LA dagger sin with +7 Armors : http://pwcalc.com/77a1baa90f6c1c79
HA fist sin with +7 Armors : http://pwcalc.com/4d0b85f3dac18717
Your entire credibility beyond this point with HA fist sin vs LA dagger sin argument is invalid simply because you put the fists on +12 and the daggers on +10. b:bye0 -
Thanks for the clarification.
I have updated the PWcalc url to view HA Fist sin with +10 Fist instead of +12.
Don't worry though, because all the calculation that I wrote after, has always based on the PWcalc with +10 Fist.
(I guess I forgot to Save the PWcalc setup with +10 Fist, before I post it earlier today).
TL;DR : PWcalc URL was wrong, is now fixed. Calculation is unaffected.0 -
Accuracy isnt a big deal at boss fights, you will allways be in the 92-99% range, which only affects DPS slightly, you will miss here and there+ the forced misses you do with 5aps anyway.
Evasionon the other hand is pretty handy to have. As sin, you reach the 25-35% evasion mark pretty easy and thats just not possible with Fist Sin.
I would assume, that you have round 10% Evasion on bosses. Isnt bad, but sin evades attacks twice as good and better.
I never tell anyone how to play, but when you use a weapon, where you cant even use skills properly without delaying it with switching weapons, well im kinda on the "use daggers" side.
I wish you luck with your setup, it would be interessting with a 5aps Chill fist/claw sin.
But thats pretty uncommon0 -
I tried to track down Skai's video of fist sin dmg vs r9 but i cant find it b:surrender it would help out alot of seeing the big difference in healsLets troll the forums together b:victory0
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@Deadalus :
I wonder if 3100 eva by LA dagger sin does offer that much evasion, as you assumed (25% - 35%), compared to the 1400 eva by HA fist sin.
Yes, 3100 is more than double of 1400 value. However, with diminishing values, I don't think it gives you even 50% more evasion compared to the 1400 eva.
Can someone clarify me on this, please?
I agree that having to switch weapons is another major disadvantage.
5aps chill fist/claw sin is alright, but in order to you use, you have to equip -0.1 interval fist/claw (G16, which i doesn't have), in addition to full APS gears.
I am not sure I want to trade my high HP and Def from G16 with more 22 attack level in lower HP and Def.
@Sachelfunlol :
I think I have seen that video before, it was ridiculous seeing how small the damage of claw/fist, compared to dagger. It was cool, nonetheless.
I am pretty sure there are quite a few people as well waiting for Skai to put up the video again. Let's wait until he finished editing the video.
Note :
To whoever hasn't seen the video, please look at Skai's video, comparing daggers.
R9+12 dagger vs R999+10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkPaEDy3XHM&hd=1
Conclusion : No matter which one, daggers are the beast! (nope, not a typo)0 -
yeah daggers are pretty tuff. i do not have r9 but g16 I made a vid earlier when testing my upgraded genie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI4PacJanu8Marine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
Yes, because people really need 900+ dex or 1000+ magic just for the lulz0 -
@Salari :
I do envy your -0.1 G16 dagger.
Just wondering, how do you find soloing TT 3-3 with your HP atm?
I assume you get around 9-10k HP fully buffed?0 -
Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »yeah daggers are pretty tuff. i do not have r9 but g16 I made a vid earlier when testing my upgraded genie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI4PacJanu8
Heh that music..... One voice is like "hey is this metallica? nice". But then the other voice starts moaning pethathically again and i want to turn of your video. What is this ?0 -
carbonarapasta wrote: »@Salari :
I do envy your -0.1 G16 dagger.
Just wondering, how do you find soloing TT 3-3 with your HP atm?
I assume you get around 9-10k HP fully buffed?
yes i get a bit over 10k buffed with lvl 11 sage buff. I dont do aps, gba and emp but I do the other bosses. Emp will give me problems duo'n with a bm around the 3rd spark(which is usually the last spark). I made a video of where we were doing emp, got wiped and i solo'd the last 400k on my vit barb he had 21k then b:chuckle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udsQquHC16o
I will duo aps and gba if i have a bm with me. I have never tried solo'n gba in 3-3 that i remember. I don't bother with aps unless i am duoing. Mainly is for some odd reason he does not always show his buff icons right before he aps's and i always die from it. When I get more hp maybe 12k or so I will try to solo emp and gba see how it goes.
The only boss that i do solo in 3-3 that gives me any real issues is illusion lord. If he hf's and aoe's back to back he one shots me. From the damage logs even my 24k barb would not be able to take the hit b:surrender. If he does that it is more aggravation than anything, i cant res myself with my barb lol.
@ daggers... i am truly lucky with that roll. well first i was not going to reroll again i had some decent add's and int was never an add i was looking for. I skill spam in tw/nw in r9 gear chilled so the extra int would not help much. the only time i really aps there is mainly nw when i get fed up with the aps sins stun locking me and aps me. So i just start dropping the hammer everywhere b:dirty lmao but on to the roll. I saw how cheap it was to keep my refine, which was +6 at the time so decided to roll again hoping for a patt add and hp. rerolled and about had a stroke b:chuckle.
the double int opened a very nice door, equiping ws belt and cube neck and still be @ 5aps for pwe when i get a int tome, or stick with 4aps sparked without one. I am also considering switching to sage once i get a tome.
another thing to note, i was soloing 3-3(aside gba,aps,emp) before i had 10k hp buffed and g16 daggers. I was doing it with r8 daggers @ 3.33 with 9k hp buffed. They are +11 and deal some massive damage with great bp heals. I have only out dph them a couple times on the one hit mob with my g16's and that was not by much.
hope this helpsMarine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
Yes, because people really need 900+ dex or 1000+ magic just for the lulz0 -
HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »Heh that music..... One voice is like "hey is this metallica? nice". But then the other voice starts moaning pethathically again and i want to turn of your video. What is this ?
b:chuckle
its Disturbed
here is youtube link to the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq3QmtV8vT0Marine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
Yes, because people really need 900+ dex or 1000+ magic just for the lulz0 -
Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »yes i get a bit over 10k buffed with lvl 11 sage buff. I dont do aps, gba and emp but I do the other bosses. Emp will give me problems duo'n with a bm around the 3rd spark(which is usually the last spark). I made a video of where we were doing emp, got wiped and i solo'd the last 400k on my vit barb he had 21k then b:chuckle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udsQquHC16o
hope this helps0 -
Cantabrum - Archosaur wrote: »b:sad then your missing lots of coins on gold mats b:cry aps is the most profitable boss on 3-3 he drop gold mats like candies b:dirty
Yes I know b:surrender. When I get refined up more I will start working on him b:dirtyMarine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
Yes, because people really need 900+ dex or 1000+ magic just for the lulz0 -
I'll say what has to be said.
APS barbs. Full str. Solid Shield. Invoke. Demon Poison Fang. Vit:HP ratio. Devour. Running speed.
Why bother with sins and BMs if you can solo it as a barb while watching a good movie.
Edit: Uncharmed.0 -
-
I'll say what has to be said.
APS barbs. Full str. Solid Shield. Invoke. Demon Poison Fang. Vit:HP ratio. Devour. Running speed.
Why bother with sins and BMs if you can solo it as a barb while watching a good movie.
Edit: Uncharmed.
Yea..
Because they kill way slower, dealing less damage, having problems getting BP heals back (i doubt that they cane make up the loss of the HP) also invoke doesnt work with claw/fist, so you staning there beeing useless with Axe.
I give you that, they survive larger hits but i cant tell you if they can make the HP up in time before the next hit hits them and they die.
Also all the Pros you mentioned like using Devour, Invoke or going full STR, everything has a huge downside.
Devour needs Barb form to be casted, will steal alot of time switching to Axe, going into Barb form, waiting for the CD goes off from true form, goes back and start attacking again. You have no to little gain from devour then.
Same with Invoke, which gives you time to breath again but what happens after? You cant spark when you used Invoke. Except you are using Apo or Genie, but then you cant use stuff like Tangling Mire which would even more increase the time yyou need in TT.
Full STR, well its fine and all, would be the same actually as going full DEX as a Sin. But the again, the sin would just fly away with the damage it deals and would run 1 1/2 to 2 till you finish your first one.
Dont tell me a Barb wouldnt need as high refines. Thats correct in a point, but you dont need as high HP anyway. The sin got Barb Buffs, it can handle lower refines aswell (+5 to +7 is fine).
What? Sin doesnt have Barb buffs? Well good luck soloing TT without Charm and BP then. b:laugh0 -
Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »Yea..
Because they kill way slower, dealing less damage, having problems getting BP heals back (i doubt that they cane make up the loss of the HP) also invoke doesnt work with claw/fist, so you staning there beeing useless with Axe.
I give you that, they survive larger hits but i cant tell you if they can make the HP up in time before the next hit hits them and they die.
Also all the Pros you mentioned like using Devour, Invoke or going full STR, everything has a huge downside.
Devour needs Barb form to be casted, will steal alot of time switching to Axe, going into Barb form, waiting for the CD goes off from true form, goes back and start attacking again. You have no to little gain from devour then.
Same with Invoke, which gives you time to breath again but what happens after? You cant spark when you used Invoke. Except you are using Apo or Genie, but then you cant use stuff like Tangling Mire which would even more increase the time yyou need in TT.
Full STR, well its fine and all, would be the same actually as going full DEX as a Sin. But the again, the sin would just fly away with the damage it deals and would run 1 1/2 to 2 till you finish your first one.
Dont tell me a Barb wouldnt need as high refines. Thats correct in a point, but you dont need as high HP anyway. The sin got Barb Buffs, it can handle lower refines aswell (+5 to +7 is fine).
What? Sin doesnt have Barb buffs? Well good luck soloing TT without Charm and BP then. b:laugh
I actually prefer soloing on my barb or bm over my sin for the reasons listed prior to your post. Yes they kill slower but not by as much as people think, combine that with much much... much more defense and hp from barbs and BMs and you have a better survivability ratio.
Historically daggers were about 15% better than fists to match their attack speed. 1.43 aps/1.25=14.4%, so daggers had about 15% higher base damage and 15% higher refine rate. Combine that with sins huge crit rate and high dex and thats why sins were such beasts.
But now compare N3 daggers and N3 claws. 943 base damage vs 924 base damage= 2% difference, and identical refine rates. And people know that N3 daggers out dd r9 and r9r, and don't fall far behind r9t3. So what you have is claw users with a weapon about the same as r9r daggers. And the ratio of sin dex to bm strength has shrunk, too. My BM has about 450 strength, while most sins have about 550 dex. Really, the only thing I lack is crit, which my barb and Bm have about 35% and I think most sins have about 38%. So I'm...20% behind?
But I'm way over 20% higher defenses. And way over 20% higher hp.
So 200k dps vs 250k dps would be consider slower, but not slow (as stated its about r9r dagger speed, or overall r9 sin speed). I'm not sure what you mean by invoke doesn't work with claw, fists. It takes me about 3 seconds to swap axes and tiger form, invoke, and get back to human with claws and another few seconds to have all my chi back.
Plus, barbs have some benefits to their damage. I open with devour and have 15 seconds of 50% debuff. I then keep up an almost constant Penetrate Armor for -35% pdef, and it takes less than 1 second to cast. Furthermore, it stacks with Tangline Mire and EP. Sins don't really get the opportunity to stack defense debuffs with their EPs.
Trueform cd was reduced to 2 seconds recently, btw.
As stated, BM and barb are getting way more heals back than damage they take. At 200k dps + debuffs my barb gets something like 15k heals a second while my sin averages around 18k. Not to mention 20% hp recovery from spark is bigger on a 20k barb than it is on a 10k sin.
Breakdown: Barbs/BMs survive multiple times better than a sin but kill about 15% slower, and obviously can't stealth. Much of the loss of stealth time is made up from faster run speeds and better aoes when there is a mob count to consider.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0
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