Seeker Metal Skill Zerk.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

After the Nation Wars update Seeker Metal skills have been affected by Sacrificial Strike and God of Frenzy weapon procs. Magic skills are not supposed to have this proc, and metal skills are magic. Though this was an intentional change I believe this to be an imbalanced update giving Seekers a larger advantage than was really needed.


EDIT: Edited the post to reflect the move from Quality Corner to General Discussion.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

*points to your sig*

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

*points to your sig*

There's a lot in it. To which part of it are you pointing?

soundslegit

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There's a lot in it. To which part of it are you pointing?

Prolly the haters gonna hate part.


Anyway zerk fits in with how the seeker class is designed. Great survivability, unimpressive average damage and the potential for high spike damage. So seekers stick around long enough to get that spike and win. On seeker the longer a fight goes the better I feel about it because I know my eventual highest spike will be better than my opponents.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

soundslegit wrote: »

Prolly the haters gonna hate part.


Anyway zerk fits in with how the seeker class is designed. Great survivability, unimpressive average damage and the potential for high spike damage. So seekers stick around long enough to get that spike and win. On seeker the longer a fight goes the better I feel about it because I know my eventual highest spike will be better than my opponents.

No! A heavy metal mage should not get to use zerk better than me! IT AINT FAIR BRO!

No but really, it makes very little sense to me to have a metal skill zerk, bug or not. It's magic. Seekers have plenty of physical skills to abuse God of Frenzy with along with a combo that makes them hit extremely hard. Metal skills are just that. Metal, whether or not they get their damage from physical attack is irrelevant. Metal is magic, and magic should not zerk. Obviously everyone's gotten used to it, we've adapted, but it still makes very little sense.

Your last line kind of seals it... "The longer a fight goes the better I feel about it because I know my eventual highest spike will be better than my opponent's". That's because you can zerk or zerk crit from both sides of the combat table. Which just shouldn't happen.

It's not that I hate it, just that it makes no sense at all. Though... at least since they're suppose to be "physical casters" at least they didn't get Purify Spell.

genotypist

Hi Zanryu. I'm able to say that this was an intended (albeit stealth even to us) change. The Seeker class is a mix of magic and physical abilities, and in this case, an exception was made for the sake of gameplay (this happens a lot in game design).

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide

Well my only question is can a Seekers metal skills miss? Since it's magic does it follow casters and never miss? Or does it follow physical attacks and can miss. I haven't tested it and I don't have a high enough dex toon to try it with. If it misses then I'm ok with zerk on metal skills. If it dosen't then I call BS.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well my only question is can a Seekers metal skills miss? Since it's magic does it follow casters and never miss? Or does it follow physical attacks and can miss. I haven't tested it and I don't have a high enough dex toon to try it with. If it misses then I'm ok with zerk on metal skills. If it dosen't then I call BS.

I haven't noticed a metal attack missing now that I think about it.

Toomaga - Heavens Tear

As far as I am concerned, the ability to Zerk on all the skills was fair enough to me. Seekers already have a lot of draw backs so this helps to compensate for that. For example the seekers biggest downfall is their lack of reliable CC and Anti stun especially if they are not sage, meaning if they get stun locked more so in group PvP, they will die 90% of the time.

Thus I think improving their killing ability helps make up for that in a lot of ways. I mean I know many players get butt hurt about it but really until a person plays a seeker in PvP enough and see what it is like or even just observe, you begin to understand why it was implemented.'

And if I recall correctly, their metals skills can still miss.

IHaxJoo - Raging Tide

casters dont get zerk cuz their magic attacks is already twice that of physical classes... and seekers, needless to say, even with +12 r9r2 weapon, their physical attack doesn't even come close to 20k. While casters' magic attack goes as high as 40k lol

So, even our zerk crits = caster's crit.
Think about that for a sec

If they're going to remove zerks from our magic skills, then you gotta increase our physical attack or give us cool Crowd control skills.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Toomaga - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As far as I am concerned, the ability to Zerk on all the skills was fair enough to me. Seekers already have a lot of draw backs so this helps to compensate for that. For example the seekers biggest downfall is their lack of reliable CC and Anti stun especially if they are not sage, meaning if they get stun locked more so in group PvP, they will die 90% of the time.

Thus I think improving their killing ability helps make up for that in a lot of ways. I mean I know many players get butt hurt about it but really until a person plays a seeker in PvP enough and see what it is like or even just observe, you begin to understand why it was implemented.'

And if I recall correctly, their metals skills can still miss.

Sage gets an anti-stun and a status effect dodge. Not to mention 90% chance on Heartseeker to keep melee targets frozen, the only melee class that can effectively counter this in most cases would be a sin because of long range teleports. It may only be one skill, but it lasts quite long and can be effectively used to keep targets at a distance.

I can't think of too much then can do to CC a caster though, granted, but when a class can already zerk physical attacks is it really necessary for it to be able to zerk magic attacks as well? Physical attacks are more than half a Seeker's arsenal, and they've always been more of a tank class rather than an outright DD. 1v1 they've got their silly combo and all its variations, group PvP they've got massive survivability and good AoEs. Metal zerking is an un-needed update.


Or you know.. maybe we can implement to update to Blade Tornado I suggested.

EDIT: To quote and reply to Kiran.

IHaxJoo - Raging Tide wrote: »

casters dont get zerk cuz their magic attacks is already twice that of physical classes... and seekers, needless to say, even with +12 r9r2 weapon, their physical attack doesn't even come close to 20k. While casters' magic attack goes as high as 40k lol

So, even our zerk crits = caster's crit.
Think about that for a sec

If they're going to remove zerks from our magic skills, then you gotta increase our physical attack or give us cool Crowd control skills.

The thing is, Seekers have long range which is another reason casters don't have zerk. Getting zerked from 30 meters away is something you can do nothing about unless you've got a genie on hand that's ready. Seekers have long range on some of their skills and can zerk/zerk crit someone from near a Caster's range. With multiple skills. Some of them being metal. A Blademaster will at max zerk/zerk crit you from about 18-20 meters with one skill on a 30 second cooldown. A Barb will zerk/zerk crit you from a range like that only with a 100 skill and their anti-fly Morai skill (unsure if that zerks, but I know it crits so please correct me if I'm wrong, very little experience with going up against it). Both of which have pretty long cooldowns.

So you have something that can consistently land long range zerks. Then, throw in the fact that it's given coverage over both elements of the combat table. For opponents with low Physical Defense it can zerk on physical attacks for high damage. On targets with lower Magic Defense than Physical Defense it can zerk on Metal attacks. Seekers have complete coverage with zerks, unlike other melee classes who can only zerk on physical attacks. The targets Mdef is irrelevant in most cases unless the person has an elemental damage pot active, and even then that's a small percentage of the damage a Seeker will be allowed to do because of being able to zerk on magic attacks.

Fissile - Archosaur

This is just another QQ thread. f:brick

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

This is just another QQ thread. f:brick

I suppose you can look at it that way, though if it were just another QQ thread I wouldn't be listing logical reasons that Seekers shouldn't be allowed to zerk metal skills. However, that is not the case. I am not raging, crying, or otherwise acting immaturely in regards to what I believe is an issue. There's a difference between being constructive and QQing, please learn it. Silly bear.

Points for getting me to respond though. You win 1 point. Use it wisely.

Toomaga - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage gets an anti-stun and a status effect dodge. Not to mention 90% chance on Heartseeker to keep melee targets frozen, the only melee class that can effectively counter this in most cases would be a sin because of long range teleports. It may only be one skill, but it lasts quite long and can be effectively used to keep targets at a distance.

I can't think of too much then can do to CC a caster though, granted, but when a class can already zerk physical attacks is it really necessary for it to be able to zerk magic attacks as well? Physical attacks are more than half a Seeker's arsenal, and they've always been more of a tank class rather than an outright DD. 1v1 they've got their silly combo and all its variations, group PvP they've got massive survivability and good AoEs. Metal zerking is an un-needed update.

Anti Stun Case:As I said, unless the Seeker went sage, they do not really reap those anti stun benefits, and the word I used very clearly was 'Reliable'. Sage BA and Unfetter have there uses but I could hardly say that they are something one could depend upon it's only 6 seconds, and most of the time your using BA it is to utilize a kill combo and maybe the odd time to pray to dodge an incoming debuff. a six second time window sounds like a lot when your talking about it, but when it comes down to actual PvP it just barely reaches it's mark. Sage unfetter is the same thing basically but it is only 4 seconds, I doubt you will be using that skill much to defend with unless you have the opportunity to, and again with only 4 seconds that is not nearly enough time in most cases.

CC Case:I'm going to go ahead and tell you something, even though Demon and Sage heartseeker is 100% the skill is affected if you are using a stance.For example if you are using the Soulreaver stance, the success rate of HeartSeeker will go down due to the fact only 1 debuff can be applied per hit. So unless your running around without a stance or your lowest success rate capable one, again that CC ability gets nerfed.

As for Voidstep that again even with rewinding gesture is not enough time to be deemed a reliable CC as it is only one target. In the world of CC, Seeker is at the bottom and I highly doubt that is up for much debate, look at their skills and it shows that a lotb:chuckle. A BM has roar of pride and multiple stuns so his CC is at the top basically, an assassin does not have AOE stun but because of their ability to utilize basically every CC skill in the game this helps them compensate for lack of defense.I wont bother going into every class as I am sure you get the point, unless I have to of course :P

My point is, the ability for a seeker to Zerk they way they can now improved the class as a whole on a large scale, I can't say I am unhappy with the change nor was it a bad one. This was an easy fix for the devs rather than going in and giving them a bunch of new CC skills. Even still at endgame Seekers have a hard time killing players that are on the same par of gear they are( I am sure this applies to every class but seekers have it tough).

And also lets be serious here, if the seeker out gears you by a huge margin as of any class, don't be surprised if you're getting hit for 20k+...Any class is capable of that if they out gear their opponent.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Toomaga - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Anti Stun Case:As I said, unless the Seeker went sage, they do not really reap those anti stun benefits, and the word I used very clearly was 'Reliable'. Sage BA and Unfetter have there uses but I could hardly say that they are something one could depend upon it's only 6 seconds, and most of the time your using BA it is to utilize a kill combo and maybe the odd time to pray to dodge an attack. a six second time window sounds like a lot when your talking about it, but when it comes down to actual PvP it just barely reaches it's mark. Sage unfetter is the same thing basically but it is only 4 seconds, I doubt you will be using that skill much to defend with unless you have the opportunity to, and again with only 4 seconds that is not nearly enough time in most cases.

CC Case:I'm going to go ahead and tell you something, even though Demon and Sage heartseeker is 100% the skill is affected if you are using a stance.For example if you are using the Soulreaver stance, the success rate of HeartSeeker will go down due to the fact only 1 debuff can be applied per hit. So unless your running around without a stance or your lowest success rate capable one, again that CC ability gets nerfed.

As for Voidstep that again even with rewinding gesture is not enough time to be deemed a reliable CC as it is only one target. In the world of CC, Seeker is at the bottom and I highly doubt that is up for much debate, look at their skills and it shows that a lotb:chuckle. A BM has roar of pride and multiple stuns so his CC is at the top basically, an assassin does not have AOE stun but because of their ability to utilize basically every CC skill in the game this helps them compensate for lack of defense.I wont bother going into every class as I am sure you get the point, unless I have to of course :P

My point is, the ability for a seeker to Zerk they way they can now improved the class as a whole on a large scale, I can't say I am unhappy with the change nor was it a bad one. This was an easy fix for the devs rather than going in and giving them a bunch of new CC skills. Even still at endgame Seekers have a hard time killing players that are on the same par of gear they are( I am sure this applies to every class but seekers have it tough).

There's also Last Stand. When it comes to any kind of PvP, the ability to stop someone's combo, even once, can turn the tide in your favor. Though Seekers may not have an insane amount of crowd control they've got the ability to tank a lot of hits and stop combos when certain skills are used at the right time. Now while this won't help quite as much in a gank against equally geared opponents, in 1v1 and proper group PvP this can make all the difference. BA could allow for a stun to miss or for amps to miss. QPQ can seal and reflect debuffs should they manage to land, Last Stand allows for a Seeker to regenerate a large chunk of HP and give anti stun allowing for a charm tick in most cases unless they're under extremely heavy fire.

A Seeker may be at the bottom but in terms of durability and damage they're high up there. Whether or not it's from a certain combo make no difference, because the combo is spammable and allows for insane amounts of damage. One could argue that it's a one trick pony and that other classes have combos, but few classes have combos that cost as little and can be pretty much spammed as desired when given the oppurtunity. Take Blademasters for example, as it's the class I play. They've got a large amount of CC, but their one good combo that allows for comparable results is extremely chi draining and it's rare that a BM can ever bring it out without some kind of aid. Even then, against full buffed targets its effectiveness is severely reduced because it cannot zerk or crit.

I get that Seekers were underpowered, but after allowing Seekers R9 the ability to zerk on regular physical attacks was quite enough of a game changer for them, you're supposed to have a tough time killing an equal geared opponent, but Seekers have the ability to tank their opponent for a significant amount of time, run their genie out, then strike back with a combo that when used correctly has more than the potential to end the fight then and there. And it's spammable. It just really seems to me like metal zerks are an un-needed addition, of course nobody will complain that they get an additional perk to their class. That'd be like me complaining about Roar lasting 8 seconds instead of 6, but it would be an un-needed change.

Point is, when it comes to anti crowd control skills.. it matters more when you use the, rather than the amount you have at your disposal. That anti stun is going to do you no good if your target isn't even trying to stun you.

Silviia - Dreamweaver

Seekers having zerk enabled on their metal skills was adding extra damage to a strength the class had over over heavy armor opponents, I don't think it was needed and potentially puts classes with low magic defense at more of a disadvantage against a seeker in PvP.

It's interesting that the developers allowed zerk on metal skills for seekers but the barbarian skill sage beastial onslaught cannot zerk, though the argument is that it's 100% accurate.

Toomaga - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There's also Last Stand. When it comes to any kind of PvP, the ability to stop someone's combo, even once, can turn the tide in your favor. Though Seekers may not have an insane amount of crowd control they've got the ability to tank a lot of hits and stop combos when certain skills are used at the right time. Now while this won't help quite as much in a gank against equally geared opponents, in 1v1 and proper group PvP this can make all the difference. BA could allow for a stun to miss or for amps to miss. QPQ can seal and reflect debuffs should they manage to land, Last Stand allows for a Seeker to regenerate a large chunk of HP and give anti stun allowing for a charm tick in most cases unless they're under extremely heavy fire.

A Seeker may be at the bottom but in terms of durability and damage they're high up there. Whether or not it's from a certain combo make no difference, because the combo is spammable and allows for insane amounts of damage. One could argue that it's a one trick pony and that other classes have combos, but few classes have combos that cost as little and can be pretty much spammed as desired when given the oppurtunity. Take Blademasters for example, as it's the class I play. They've got a large amount of CC, but their one good combo that allows for comparable results is extremely chi draining and it's rare that a BM can ever bring it out without some kind of aid. Even then, against full buffed targets its effectiveness is severely reduced because it cannot zerk or crit.

I get that Seekers were underpowered, but after allowing Seekers R9 the ability to zerk on regular physical attacks was quite enough of a game changer for them, you're supposed to have a tough time killing an equal geared opponent, but Seekers have the ability to tank their opponent for a significant amount of time, run their genie out, then strike back with a combo that when used correctly has more than the potential to end the fight then and there. And it's spammable. It just really seems to me like metal zerks are an un-needed addition, of course nobody will complain that they get an additional perk to their class. That'd be like me complaining about Roar lasting 8 seconds instead of 6, but it would be an un-needed change.

Point is, when it comes to anti crowd control skills.. it matters more when you use the, rather than the amount you have at your disposal. That anti stun is going to do you no good if your target isn't even trying to stun you.

I did not bring up last stand for 2 reasons. One if the person has you stun locked in a 1v1 or group PvP and you are almost dead and burnt your genie,it is pointless because you wont get to use it. Second, if you have a charm and it ticks just when you are about to die, once again you can't use it.

Not every Seeker is sage, so I don't think it's even valid anymore to bring up the fact that Seekers have 'Reliable Anti Stun ability'. Regardless of the spam rate of a skill if the person is not using some form of a stun or debuff Sage BA and Unfetter just came became useless for that purpose. And 90% of the time it is used you are using it to get off a kill combo while the said target is unable to retaliate, and if that is the case then that sage BA and unfetter was wasted IN THAT RESPECT.

Let me try to put this differently at endgame s3 r9 seeker vs another s3 r9 character, those Zerks become their only hope of winning because as I said, it's not like they have a stun lock to rely on.

A seeker vs a cleric...If they use plume shell or any of their shells, Gemni and Arma neir are basically there only means of a charm bypass or a one shot and once those are burnt I highly doubt stalag strike and the weaker physical attacks are going to cut it. Especially if the cleric is stacking IH. Same thing with Seeker Vs Mystic. I don't feel like going into every single class ug c.c....

Anyway the only classes seekers have an easier time with is HA classes ONLY because of their ability to zerk on their Metal skills, if they did not have that I would like to see a seeker successfully 1v1 a s3 r9 BM and actually win. All the BM would have to do is keep Magical marrow up and I highly doubt Gemini slash or any of the weaker physical skills zerking will kill them that easily.Actually scratch that, the BM probably would not need marrow at all lol.

You have to look at this game in terms of endgame, if you're only looking at it with the perspective of OP geared players vs under geared player, you're always going to get the same result that 'said class is OP because'. Put them with the same gear in the same category and you will see the results change drastically. Whether that be in a 1v1 scenario or group PvP. PWI is a strongly endgame oriented style game, so thats where most of the balancing seems to really appear.

Again...Throw a stage 1 r9+5 with immaculate shards against even just a stage 1 r9+10 fully sharded the BMs chances of winning are slim, put the in the same gear that changes automatically, the seeker still has the edge with his metal skills, but the BMs survivability just went waaaaay up.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Toomaga - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I did not bring up last stand for 2 reasons. One if the person has you stun locked in a 1v1 or group PvP and you are almost dead and burnt your genie,it is pointless because you wont get to use it. Second, if you have a charm and it ticks just when you are about to die, once again you can't use it.

Last Stand seems to work very well from the times I've seen it used, in that second you're out of a lock you can throw it on. You get a large chunk of HP and the ability to kite your opponent without being able to be stunned in any way. That will allow a charm tick. It's possible you might not get to use it, but that's no different than a BM under a lock and being unable to use Will of the Bodhisattva.

Not every Seeker is sage, so I don't think it's even valid anymore to bring up the fact that Seekers have 'Reliable Anti Stun ability'. Regardless of the spam rate of a skill if the person is not using some form of a stun or debuff Sage BA and Unfetter just came became useless for that purpose. And 90% of the time it is used you are using it to get off a kill combo while the said target is unable to retaliate, and if that is the case then that sage BA and unfetter was wasted IN THAT RESPECT.

I'll grant you that not every Seeker is Sage, but even then there's still other options for getting out of stunlocks and counterattacking. Just because you don't have native antistuns doesn't mean you're unable to break a lock. There's genie and apothecary, and as I said before it's not the amount of CC breaks you have, but how and when you use them.

Let me try to put this differently at endgame s3 r9 seeker vs another s3 r9 character, those Zerks become their only hope of winning because as I said, it's not like they have a stun lock to rely on.

A Seeker has zerks regardless of if they affect metal skills or not. Metal skills still have the ability to crit. Let's not forget that even without a lock Seekers more or less have the ability to keep their targets in place. Archers have an amazing amount of CC, but they're also light armor. Yes Zerks will help a lot, but that zerk crit that finishes the fight? It doesn't have to be metal.

A seeker vs a cleric...If they use plume shell or any of their shells, Gemni and Arma neir are basically there only means of a charm bypass are one shot and once those are burnt I highly doubt stalag strike and the weaker physical attacks are going to cut it. Especially if the cleric is stacking IH. Same thing with Seeker Vs Mystic. I don't feel like going into every single class ug c.c....

Anyway the only classes seekers have an easier time with is HA classes ONLY because of their ability to zerk on their Metal skills, if they did not have that I would like to see a seeker successfully 1v1 a s3 r9 BM and actually win. All the BM would have to do is keep Magical marrow up and I highly doubt Gemini slash or any of the weaker physical skills zerking will kill them that easily.

See here's the thing about HA vs HA. They're tank classes, meant to tank. Yes it's great when you can kill but that isn't usually what you're gonna go for when you're decked out in full R9R3 against another R9R3 heavy. A barb won't kill a BM, a BM won't kill a barb, neither will kill another of their class unless one of them is in highly refined APS gear, which will allow for either person to kill the other because of increased damage and lowered defenses on one end. A full Heavy Armor BM isn't going to kill another equally geared heavy unless they pull off a chain of zerks, crits, or zerk crits on a good HF drop. Seekers have the ability to kill another HA such as a BM because of their ability to zerk physical and magic attacks, there's no defense against it other than having naturally high resistances to both which will only happen in certain cases, and even then when it comes to a BM that involves being Demon and spamming Demon Bell and Magic marrow. Sages don't get that, and their marrows leave them incredibly open to the opposite type of attack. Which Seekers can zerk on no matter the marrow.

You have to look at this game in terms of endgame, if you're only looking at it with the perspective of OP geared players vs under geared player, you're always going to get the same result that 'said class is OP because'. Put them with the same gear in the same category and you will see the results change drastically. Whether that be in a 1v1 scenario or group PvP. PWI is a strongly endgame oriented style game, so thats where most of the balancing seems to really appear.

I am looking at this from an end game perspective. Just because I play on a +5 BM doesn't mean I'm blind to how end game PvP works. I'm not letting my experiences with my current level of gear affect my reasoning for what I say. You can't argue from a lower than end game perspective, because by the time you hit end game tactics and gameplay change to compensate for the gear at that level.

Again...Throw a stage 1 r9+5 with immaculate shards against even just a stage 1 r9+10 fully sharded the BMs chances of winning are slim, put the in the same gear that changes automatically, the seeker still has the edge with his metal skills, but the BMs survivability just went waaaaay up.

An R9 BM won't kill an R9 Seeker unless it gets lucky. Especially with refine disadvantage, for HA to reliably kill HA it requires an APS set which opens the user to being disposed of easily due to decreased defenses. It's a double edged sword of sorts, it allows for extremely high damage output, better than R9R3 axes and the ability to actually kill an HA target of equal gear, but it also allows for you to be hit extremely hard and possibly die in only a few hits. Huge judgement call of when to use it. Of course, if this is about pure end game then this part of your post is completely irrelevant.

Replies in red.

Silviia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seekers having zerk enabled on their metal skills was adding extra damage to a strength the class had over over heavy armor opponents, I don't think it was needed and potentially puts classes with low magic defense at more of a disadvantage against a seeker in PvP.

It's interesting that the developers allowed zerk on metal skills for seekers but the barbarian skill sage beastial onslaught cannot zerk, though the argument is that it's 100% accurate.

Also, to reply to your edit, Smack has 100% accuracy and can zerk.

Fissile - Archosaur

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Metal, whether or not they get their damage from physical attack is irrelevant. Metal is magic, and magic should not zerk.

The crux of your logical argument is essentially "because I say so" which isn't really constructive at all. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, seeker magic skills can miss (unless something changed recently), and they do far lower damage than casters. Even a zerk from ion spike does less damage than most spells from casters. Without zerk those skills are pretty weak.

Archers can deal more magic damage from longer range yet people constantly complain their skills are underpowered. It is not inherently wrong (which seems to be your argument), nor is it overpowered or game-breaking for GoF to work on these skills.

Toomaga - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Replies in red.



Also, to reply to your edit, Smack has 100% accuracy and can zerk.

My use of the word 'you' was not targeting you specifically, I am speaking generally.

Red Point 1:I am not saying it is useless, I am saying it rarely will be used mostly due to the fact you are either stun locked or your charm has ticked. I am speaking about PK also not duels, that's another topic.

Red Point 2:First of all, you and I are were both speaking about the use of sage BA and unfetter, of course you can use your genie if it is not already burnt, but the point of of my statement and the original context of that section was the use of Sage BA and unfetter and it's overall usefulness. I fully aware of apothecary and genie use but I am not going into that because that was not the point.

Red Point 3:I'm failing to understand where you are going with this point, heart seeker keeping an opponent in place will only apply to non ranged opponents so again it's not like that really is a big deal for the enemy unless they are a melee class.

A Bm? Use the marrow, a sin ?, they can just teleport directly to the seeker and still use attacks(yes you can un glitch the ability to not attack), Barbarian? not like that matters much if they use some form of a shield to outlast the heart seeker and follow up with their anti stun skill. The rest are ranged and don't really matter since a Mystic can purify it or heal through it, a Cleric can heal through it or purify it, a Psychic can just resist incoming physical combos, a wizard can just leap out of range if they want or keep attacking, an archer just anti stun and reduce damage taken or keep DDing and probably get a purge off. So again, heartseeker is good but assuming you're not fighting someone inexperienced it is meh.

Red Point 4:The point is, they CAN kill each other, the possibility is still there seekers just have an advantage, I don't see how that all of sudden makes things unfair, not everything in a game is and should be 100% balanced. It's not like a seeker will zerk on his metal skills all the time anyway. Even if the zerk ability was taken away from metal skills, I would like to see two similarly geared players (Seeker and a BM for example) 1 shot with a Physical Gemni slash zerk, that wont happen so easily I can promise you that.

A s3 r9 archer for example yes they also have metal skills and if you have PvPed enough or observed they can roll basically any opponent given the right opening. They may not have zerk like a seeker but they have the almighty purgeb:surrender.

Red Point 5:Again I was not making a personal attack on you but a general statement, and if you read what I said carefully I am actually trying to put everything in perspective.

Red Point 6: I will explain to you why this part of my post is not irrelevant. Almost on a regular basis you have players QQing about something being 1 sided or broken in PvP, when the fact of the matter is it's usually because they are majorly out geared. What I am trying to say is given the same gear (s3 r9 for example) you will see that gap that person was QQing about slowly disappear. That is what I mean by saying 'PWI is highly endgame oriented'. If your a +5 BM r9 BM that is fighting a seeker for example that highly surpasses you in gear of course you're going to get destroyed, which like I said is true of ANY class.

Again none of my point's are personal attacks but simply to put things in perspective.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Despite its name, Quality Qorner is for bugs and not QQ.
If there's no bug this thread should be closed or moved to the QQ subforum.

PS: Create the QQ subforum.

Fissile - Archosaur

Sweetiebot, give Asterelle - Sanctuary 10 points f:sneaky

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

The crux of your logical argument is essentially "because I say so" which isn't really constructive at all. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, seeker magic skills can miss (unless something changed recently), and they do far lower damage than casters. Even a zerk from ion spike does less damage than most spells from casters. Without zerk those skills are pretty weak.

Archers can deal more magic damage from longer range yet people constantly complain their skills are underpowered. It is not inherently wrong (which seems to be your argument), nor is it overpowered or game-breaking for GoF to work on these skills.

That's hardly the basis for my argument, if you believe that to be so then you need lessons in reading comprehension.

Archers can't zerk. Seekers can. I only brought casters up to show that they can't zerk. Seekers are weaker than casters with their skills, but they can attack from both sides of the combat table and zerk. Against a melee class you can defend yourself by being physically defensive, against a magic class you can do it by being magically defensive. A Seeker will be able to take advantage of whichever side has weaker defenses and has the ability to zerk on it. Archers, while able to take advantage of magic and physical attacks, cannot zerk crit said attacks. Nor can they spam a combo to take advantage of the ability to zerk. The strongest combo I've seen so far was BV>Zooming Thunder Powder>Metal Skill Spam from stealth, which takes a lot of chi.

In regards to the comments about this being QQ, I'd have to disagree but you're entitled to whatever opinions you have. If you think it's just QQ then you should probably stop bumping it and let it die, wouldn't you agree that would be the best solution?

SweetieBot - Lothranis

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

Sweetiebot, give Asterelle - Sanctuary 10 points

Fissile - Archosaur awards 10 points to Asterelle - Sanctuary!
Asterelle - Sanctuary now has a total of 118 points and is in 5th place.
Fissile - Archosaur can still award another 20 points today.

Check this thread for the current high scores and to learn how to award points to others.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That's hardly the basis for my argument, if you believe that to be so then you need lessons in reading comprehension.

Archers can't zerk. Seekers can. I only brought casters up to show that they can't zerk. Seekers are weaker than casters with their skills, but they can attack from both sides of the combat table and zerk. Against a melee class you can defend yourself by being physically defensive, against a magic class you can do it by being magically defensive. A Seeker will be able to take advantage of whichever side has weaker defenses and has the ability to zerk on it. Archers, while able to take advantage of magic and physical attacks, cannot zerk crit said attacks. Nor can they spam a combo to take advantage of the ability to zerk. The strongest combo I've seen so far was BV>Zooming Thunder Powder>Metal Skill Spam from stealth, which takes a lot of chi.

In regards to the comments about this being QQ, I'd have to disagree but you're entitled to whatever opinions you have. If you think it's just QQ then you should probably stop bumping it and let it die, wouldn't you agree that would be the best solution?

Even if it is a legitimate balance complaint (which I agree with), unless you can describe a bug it doesn't belong in this forum.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even if it is a legitimate balance complaint (which I agree with), unless you can describe a bug it doesn't belong in this forum.

Hence the part in parentheses in my original post.

DoodsWH - Sanctuary

I disagree this is a legitimate balance compliant. its already been pointed out that seeker cant hit as hard with thier mag as mag users can. heartseeker is useless if u use any seeker buff as i can only have 1 seeker debuff (skill) on an opponent. Seekers literally were worthless in pvp and even with the zerk arent in the top list of badass pvp classes with the enhancment
and lastly your a cleric. No need to elaborate the last part as its pretty self explanatory.

bolocactu

Zerks on magic attacks are unfair, but I love 'em.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

DoodsWH - Sanctuary wrote: »

I disagree this is a legitimate balance compliant. its already been pointed out that seeker cant hit as hard with thier mag as mag users can. heartseeker is useless if u use any seeker buff as i can only have 1 seeker debuff (skill) on an opponent. Seekers literally were worthless in pvp and even with the zerk arent in the top list of badass pvp classes with the enhancment
and lastly your a cleric. No need to elaborate the last part as its pretty self explanatory.

>youtube.com/ZanryuPWI
>full of Cleric vids

Why am I even doing that. Oh well. Point still stands, I wasn't aware I was a Cleric. It's 2013, get with the times, just because people post on certain avatars doesn't mean that's the class they are currently playing.

Fissile - Archosaur

DoodsWH - Sanctuary wrote: »

I disagree this is a legitimate balance compliant. its already been pointed out that seeker cant hit as hard with thier mag as mag users can. heartseeker is useless if u use any seeker buff as i can only have 1 seeker debuff (skill) on an opponent. Seekers literally were worthless in pvp and even with the zerk arent in the top list of badass pvp classes with the enhancment
and lastly your a cleric. No need to elaborate the last part as its pretty self explanatory.

No his main is a BM and he is mad because he can't be invincible against seekers by spamming physical marrow anymore.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

No his main is a BM and he is mad because he can't be invincible against seekers by spamming physical marrow anymore.

Implying I ever spammed physical marrow. A comment like that makes you lose any and all credibility, considering even back in the day I used Demon Bell + Magic Marrow spam to boost my defense against Seekers. What gave you the idea that I spammed Physical Marrow against Seekers? Please, I'd love to hear this one. b:chuckle