Why Earthen Rift sucks in 1v1 - Math Thread

Oups_Dead - Harshlands

2 words: charm bypass
most of the time with high refined opponents we search for a bypass because we don t have enough dps to kill the target without that so don't be "pained" if u c someone using it it means they have a bit of logic

Tsyn - Raging Tide

If you don't have enough DPS to kill someone, your weapon probably isn't good enough to make a charm bypass.

Charm bypass is to avoid all the trouble it takes to lock someone down (at least for a sin) while doing a traditional damage set.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

While I agree that charm bypass is viable, I would not say it's easy. Based on my understanding, effective HP is a good way to measure whether or not a 1 shot or charm by pass is possible.

So then that should mean that anyone whose effective HP is greater than your maximum possible damage cannot be 1 shot, and that anyone who's effective HP at 51% is higher than your maximum possible damage cannot be charm bypassed.

Most classes end game do have high enough effective HP to make a charm bypass extremely difficult. Some classes cannot be charm bypassed unless they're sparked on or debuffed.

trands

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

When did I say rift in a 1v1 is dumb? I simply pointed out that Twin strike gives more damage over time. I named the few situations in which I personally use it, and when it's sometimes more effective. Also, I'm perfectly fine with the few skills I have - I don't need any filler other than the ones I already use. I've DPH'd enough to cycle all of my available skills so that I almost never need anything than those three and the occassional ribstrike (which I use more for the sage HP reduction).

You litterally said "I'm seeing this way too often: People using Earthen Rift against a single target. This pains me;" You're just trying to turn around it now since several poeple gave good reasons to use rift lol Heck, look at the title. Even the very existance of this thread shouts that you disaproove on seeing rift being used in a 1vs1 fight.

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

The high point of an APS build is it's damage, and the low point is the squish. The high point of a DPH sin is its armor and high crit rate - but it lacks the DPS of an APS sin. It makes up for this with DPH, but ultimately, the way that DPH works is through the same principles of DPS, when racing a 10 second charm tick. If 1shotting was what sins wanted to do in a 1v1, you would see more triple sparking. Even though DPH sins use skills, they're still mostly used to achieve enough DPS to kill. A DPH sin has an extremely wide range of damage, due to zc's. When there are a lot of zerkcrits, the DPS is higher, simply because you have skills hitting twice or four times as hard.

You don't see much sparking because you give your opponent 3 seconds while shoutting "DISABLE ME ! STUN, SEAL, HOLY PATH AWAY ! I'M WIDE OPEN".

And honestly, you're just making me say things I never said. Who talked about 1shotting ? Who said highest DPH and disregarding DPS in all ways is the ultimate way in 1vs1 pk ? I didn't and nobody did as far as I saw. Also, your point doesn't make sense. The best dps is always auto-attacks for all non-caster classes.

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

Please show me exactly where I said anything other than "endgame". Meaning, R9 third cast full, or similar. And by the way, I don't believe I see a lot of R9S3 +0 sins running around.

My main point here was to show that the damage is irrelevant because of the amount of damage reduction at endgame. Between the two skills, there is going to be more variation in damage because of the weapon's random number generator, and not because of the skill itself. My main point here was to point out that Slipstream, if the damage is given to be almost the same, is the better choice.

In the beginning, you said it was because R999 favors rift, and then you said that rift and slipstream do by definition about equal average damage. You simply don't make sense here.

And even if they average the same, rift still has the higher potential damage and there is nothing "wrong" with using it.

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

Oh, and, the DPS of a 4aps sage sin is higher than a 2.86 over long periods of time. More times to use Powerdash/Subsea, and it's not reliant on zerkcrits for damage. I thought this was covered enough times over on this forum.

Look, now in red you put criteria to judge on ! Before that, nothing can be said really. Even now, that factor is only personal to you. When talking about "endgame", I honestly don't give a damn about permaspark and long-run damage testing. Every class can permaspark now that bosses die in 12~15sec.

I would say the 2.86 aps build is better because it has better upgrade potential and I dislike soloing TT meaning the whole permaspark thing is irrelevant to me while R9 will look cooler and make me more wanted in squads as GoF is over-valued by the idiots that wc bh squads.

Tsyn - Raging Tide

You litterally said "I'm seeing this way too often: People using Earthen Rift against a single target. This pains me;" You're just trying to turn around it now since several poeple gave good reasons to use rift lol Heck, look at the title. Even the very existance of this thread shouts that you disaproove on seeing rift being used in a 1vs1 fight.

It does pain me. People can get so much better damage if they use Twin Strike. Is there something wrong with helping other sins getting better DPS?
I'll say it now. RIFT SUCKS 1v1 FOR DPS PURPOSES. I disapprove of sins randomly popping Rift in 1v1s for damage, when they have better options.

You don't see much sparking because you give your opponent 3 seconds while shoutting "DISABLE ME ! STUN, SEAL, HOLY PATH AWAY ! I'M WIDE OPEN".

You misunderstand me. I only meant to emphasize the fact that DPH sins use DPS to kill, and don't roam around trying to 1shot people as the only way to kill someone.

And honestly, you're just making me say things I never said. Who talked about 1shotting ? Who said highest DPH and disregarding DPS in all ways is the ultimate way in 1vs1 pk ? I didn't and nobody did as far as I saw. Also, your point doesn't make sense. The best dps is always auto-attacks for all non-caster classes.

Please get a full DPH sin, put chill on, and autoattack. Then use Twin Strike. Which of the choices is faster and gives more damage?

I'd like to remind you that we're talking about full R9/S3 here, not aps build. Any player with half a brain can see that APS outdps's full R9 on average faster than a monkey can decide that bananas are tasty.

In the beginning, you said it was because R999 favors rift, and then you said that rift and slipstream do by definition about equal average damage. You simply don't make sense here.

In comparison to Twin Strike, yes, S3 favors rift. However, Twin Strike and similar skills can still do more damage in the same time as a single rift. That was the purpose of this thread. However, in comparison to Slipstream, both Rift and Stream are nearly equal.

And even if they average the same, rift still has the higher potential damage and there is nothing "wrong" with using it.

This is not a university. There is no "wrong". I just remarked that given similar damage output, Slipstream is more efficient in terms of time used.

Look, now in red you put criteria to judge on ! Before that, nothing can be said really. Even now, that factor is only personal to you. When talking about "endgame", I honestly don't give a damn about permaspark and long-run damage testing. Every class can permaspark now that bosses die in 12~15sec.

I would say the 2.86 aps build is better because it has better upgrade potential and I dislike soloing TT meaning the whole permaspark thing is irrelevant to me while R9 will look cooler and make me more wanted in squads as GoF is over-valued by the idiots that wc bh squads.

This is off topic. I simply used it as a similar example in the case of the assassin class. Arguing about Pve-oriented DPS in a thread about PvP-oriented DPH is silly. Kindly stop. (Although I MUST agree that S3 looks better than G13).

Oups_Dead - Harshlands

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

While I agree that charm bypass is viable, I would not say it's easy. Based on my understanding, effective HP is a good way to measure whether or not a 1 shot or charm by pass is possible.

So then that should mean that anyone whose effective HP is greater than your maximum possible damage cannot be 1 shot, and that anyone who's effective HP at 51% is higher than your maximum possible damage cannot be charm bypassed.

Most classes end game do have high enough effective HP to make a charm bypass extremely difficult. Some classes cannot be charm bypassed unless they're sparked on or debuffed.

well i was talking about fighting AA/LAs ofc u r right about the 51% but w/e i c a target that has ~60% hp i got for (thoatcut or headhunt or rift )+mire (with my 105 str genie) hoping for a zerk crit *ouch*
however if u trying to fight a full r99 barb with decent refines with skills well u r a dummy

Oups_Dead - Harshlands

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you don't have enough DPS to kill someone, your weapon probably isn't good enough to make a charm bypass.

Charm bypass is to avoid all the trouble it takes to lock someone down (at least for a sin) while doing a traditional damage set.

NO !! i'm not talking about APS DPS but about skill DPS because the guy who made the thread is calculating damage of skils over time while all the point of skills is to AOE or try to 1 shot . In my opinion if u can't kill a target with APS then it is also hard to kill it with skills no matter what ppl say about purifie rates and all the blablabla (personal experience)

Jesusisback - Raging Tide

Omg guys you're missing the facking point. What Tsyn is trying to say is he doesn't like when sins RANDOMLY use Earthern Rift in a 1v1.

What good is using Rift when you can't kill the opponent even if it zerk crits? Idk which stupid sin actually bothers with using Rift on HA targets with the charm NOT on CD and their health full since it's a waste of time and effort.

I won't complain when a sin tries to use Rift when the charm's on CD and the opponent's health is low enough to die from a TM+Rift crit or so, but trust me when I say sins RARELY use Rift for that purpose. They just randomly spam it because they can and THAT my friends is a waste.

Stop trying to TROLL and understand what he's trying to say.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

Omg guys you're missing the facking point. What Tsyn is trying to say is he doesn't like when sins RANDOMLY use Earthern Rift in a 1v1.

What good is using Rift when you can't kill the opponent even if it zerk crits? Idk which stupid sin actually bothers with using Rift on HA targets with the charm NOT on CD and their health full since it's a waste of time and effort.

I won't complain when a sin tries to use Rift when the charm's on CD and the opponent's health is low enough to die from a TM+Rift crit or so, but trust me when I say sins RARELY use Rift for that purpose. They just randomly spam it because they can and THAT my friends is a waste.

Stop trying to TROLL and understand what he's trying to say.

^this

earthen rift kills 1/2 hp squishies on regular crits; vs HAs it's not that great

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver

better to just use rift even if it's one on one, cause you never know if a pesky archer or another sin lurks in stealth...Ie..it may not be just one on one. Nthing wrong with being in the habbit of spamming an aoe.

Oups_Dead - Harshlands

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

Omg guys you're missing the facking point. What Tsyn is trying to say is he doesn't like when sins RANDOMLY use Earthern Rift in a 1v1.

What good is using Rift when you can't kill the opponent even if it zerk crits? Idk which stupid sin actually bothers with using Rift on HA targets with the charm NOT on CD and their health full since it's a waste of time and effort.

I won't complain when a sin tries to use Rift when the charm's on CD and the opponent's health is low enough to die from a TM+Rift crit or so, but trust me when I say sins RARELY use Rift for that purpose. They just randomly spam it because they can and THAT my friends is a waste.

Stop trying to TROLL and understand what he's trying to say.

if u r trying to kill an HA like r99 barb with skill start uninstalling plz. and if zerk crit can t 1shout 51% of ur target s hp on rift u probably got no chance to kill with skills. this thread is lame anyhow

Tsyn - Raging Tide

if u r trying to kill an HA like r99 barb with skill start uninstalling plz. and if zerk crit can t 1shout 51% of ur target s hp on rift u probably got no chance to kill with skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGw-PmqCDvw

Both are Rank 9 Third cast, full. The gears are slightly different in sharding.
But sure looks legit to me.

Oups_Dead - Harshlands

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGw-PmqCDvw

Both are Rank 9 Third cast, full. The gears are slightly different in sharding.
But sure looks legit to me.

wow the barb seems pretty squishy though taking 14ks in his panda form. u sure he got decent refines?
the sin's hp isn't high probably not even full +10 pretty weird but impressive . thx this vid was pretty cool . i guess i should start farming full r9 set -.-

skaitavia

Oups_Dead - Harshlands wrote: »

wow the barb seems pretty squishy though taking 14ks in his panda form. u sure he got decent refines?
the sin's hp isn't high probably not even full +10 pretty weird but impressive . thx this vid was pretty cool . i guess i should start farming full r9 set -.-

Shardless, a full +10 R9r2 sin has around 14.75k hp with T2 Nirvy helm/cape.

Tsyn - Raging Tide

In this given example, both parties have on average +11 (some +10 some +12) refines. The sin has more event items (ring, neck, etc). To generalize, both of them possess non-endgame sharding (citrines).

The gear links can be found in the video's description. There are other videos like this, btw.

The damage is pretty expected of a luck-based 1v1 set (almost like how Skai fights, I think). If you fight long enough, eventually you're going to get a long string of zc's. Besides that, I've been able to kill full S3 barbs with a S1 weapon sin by skillspamming and with some R8R armour pieces. It's annoying but I think the defense you gain is worth it.

mrbroat

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Edited. I don't always write everything at once.

That means what? We can use skills how we so desire.

Read my edit. I do read skill descriptions. Those skills have a high base damage, making them more effective for someone with low base attack and attack levels, while an OP PK player would benefit more from Rift's 430% weapon damage due to attack levels, +12 refine, and 66% crit.


Still assuming Kyougu's gear...

Sage Earthen Rift does base phys damage + 430% weapon damage
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+(18,416*4.3)
99,305+79,189=178,494 average damage for Rift

Demon Slipstream does base physical damage + 100% weapon + 6,633
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+18,415+6,633
99,305+18,415+6,633=124,253 average damage for Slipstream

Demon Throatcut does Base physical damage + 7,331.2
You can tell just by looking at the description that this does about 17k less that Slipstream.

how can you u justify saying one skill hits hard then the other one when u or uesing a sage and then a demon skill to make ur point kind of hard when one sin cant use a sage and demon skill so please dont say when it best for a player when they learn there skills and know wuts best for them

SweetieBot - Lothranis

mrbroat wrote: »

how can you u justify saying one skill hits hard then the other one when u or uesing a sage and then a demon skill to make ur point kind of hard when one sin cant use a sage and demon skill so please dont say when it best for a player when they learn there skills and know wuts best for them

This looks like a NECRO!

mrbroat replied to a message that was 1 year 6 months 25 days 17 hours 32 minutes old.

Any thread over one month (30 days) old is considered to be a dead thread and you're not supposed to post in them. The person you are replying to probably doesn't care any more or can no longer be found on the forums. The topic itself could be out of date. Next time just make a new thread.

Let's see how long it takes for a mod to close this

mrbroat

sweetiebot soooo im bored and cant get on game so i been back readin old post

SweetieBot - Lothranis

mrbroat wrote: »

sweetiebot soooo im bored and cant get on game so i been back readin old post

Not much.

opkossy

mrbroat wrote: »

sweetiebot soooo im bored and cant get on game so i been back readin old post

Doesn't matter. You shouldn't revive threads that are well over a year old.