Why Earthen Rift sucks in 1v1 - Math Thread

Tsyn - Raging Tide

So with the new generation of skillspamming sage sins, I'm seeing this way too often: People using Earthen Rift against a single target. This pains me; Twin strike and similar skills give more damage than Rift because of the time it takes to cast.

Let's do some calculations. Earthen rift takes a total of 2.5 seconds to use (.7 channel, 1.8 cast). Twin Strike, the weakest "QS" or "Fast" skill, needs exactly 1 second to use. This means we can use two skills like: twin strike, condensed thorn, and spell cutter. We'll still have some time left over, too. Half a second.

For our purposes, we'll use two twin strikes, which is the weakest of the three, as our "worst case" scenario. We'll compare that damage to the damage of 1 Earthen Rift. We'll also be using Kyougu's gear build, which can be found here (self buff version):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjNRKggWXh0

This full R9 and heavily recasted/refined/etc build highly favors Earthen Rift, because it is based off of weapon damage. As you can see, we are using the worst case scenario for Twin Strike and the best case scenario for Earthen Rift.

(The damage calculator I used can be found here: https://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/itsawn/pw-damage-calc-v2-0)

By calculating using sage Earthen rift and level 10 Twin Strike, we get the following damages (without zerk or crit):

Lvl 10 Twin Strike (average): 52593.5 damage
Sage Earthen Rift (average): 85968.5 damage

"Well Tsy," you say to me in a patronizing voice, "isn't 85k higher than 52k?"

Well, yes. But here's the thing. Twin Strike and a similar skill can be used in UNDER the time it takes to cast Earthen Rift. So if we multiply the damage by 2 from Twin Strike, we get the new number of 105187 - which is clearly higher than Earthen Rift. We also have to remember that we are assuming the ABSOLUTELY BEST case scenario for Earthen Rift, and we are ALSO assuming that Twin Strike is NOT level 11. Therefore, clearly, Twin Strike, Condensed Thorn, and Spell Cutter... it gives more damage to use two of these skills than use the same time to cast Earthen Rift once.

You might argue that Earthen Rift benefits more from Zerk and Crit - yes, while its damage is significantly more than a double Twin Strike, this is balanced and gives favor back to the quick skills by the fact that two skills have a higher chance to crit or zerk on either one.

Tldr:

-Twin Strike+Similar Skill damage > Earthen Rift on average

-Twin Strike+Similar Skill = faster than Earthen Rift

-Twin Strike+Similar Skill = Better than Earthen Rift in 1v1

(There are only a few cases where this is not true. One, you can only get 1 hit in (i.e if the target is moving out of range) and two, where you're trying to 1shot your opponent with a zerk or crit.)

tweakz

I haven't leveled twin strike or similar skill and I have stole aggro from a barb by skill spamming BH SoT boss.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Yep. Earthen Rift is more of a skill used when you can do enough damage to charm bypass your opponent (not necessarily 1 shot, but charm bypass). If you can't charm bypass with DPH, you're gonna want DPS where it becomes more of a filler skill that is not very DPS efficient.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Agree with everything you wrote, just 2 comments.

Twinstrike=1 second chan+cast...
Thats the only other skill that doesn't cost chi thats under 1 second except for Spell Cutter and Knife Throw which many will keep in reserve for interupting or ranged targets and Deep Sting, used in our stunlocks. Most of our other skills are also used for their effect rather then their dd.

Twin Strike = 1 sec
Spell Cutter = 1 sec Used for effect
Condensed Thorn = 1 sec Used for effect...sometimes.
Knife Throw = 1.1 sec Used for effect/range
Deep Sting = 1.2 sec Used for effect Costs Chi
Power Dash = 1.2 sec Used for effect Costs Chi
Toxic Torrent = 1.2 Used for effect Costs Chi
Throatcut = 1.4 Used for effect Costs Chi
Raving Slash = 1.6 sec Used for effect Costs Chi
Tackling Slash = 1.6 sec Used for effect
Subsea = 1.6 sec Used for effect Costs Chi
Rising Dragon Strike = 2 sec Used for effect
Headhunt = 2 sec Used for effect Costs Chi
Slipstream Strike = 2.1
Ribstrike = 2.2 sec Used for effect
Earthen Rift = 2.5 sec

Admitedly, some of those Used for effect" aren't really used for effects 90% of the time, like Raving Slash. Although our slows have become great in NW against flag runners while waiting for help, or stopping kiting archer. And chi is always something to think about but its not a huge concern. I just wanted to illustrate that when concerning ourselves with chi, saving skills for their effects, skills in cd, and Morai/lvl 100 skills yjat many players still don't have, we don't have too many options for quick skill spam.

My second point is cooldowns. Most our skills are 8-15 second cooldown so the unexperienced sin, or even the experience sin in the heat of a fight, finds himself grasping for skills that aren't in cd. The option being a longer channeling skill or auto attacking. Earthen Rift is a pretty excellent skill when everything else is cd because it hits hard and gives your other skills time to cd without having to use up your stunlock skills.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver

All I can say is the following:

Earthen Rift is an AOE skill (you know; AREA of effect) for a reason and if you use it in 1v1 well... yeah... Guess you don't know what an AOE is meant for then.
b:bye

inb4 "BUT MUH CRITZERKS"

Typhyse - Sanctuary

OP, your math is very impressive and yes, using several QS skills would be more effective than the long cast of Rift, but you seem to be forgetting one thing; stun. More likely than not a sin will have its 1v1 target stunned before he uses Rift (that is if the sin has any sort of skill) which, as Zsw already pointed out, is wanted for a one-shot to go right past a charm.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All I can say is the following:

Earthen Rift is an AOE skill (you know; AREA of effect) for a reason and if you use it in 1v1 well... yeah... Guess you don't know what an AOE is meant for then.
b:bye

inb4 "BUT MUH CRITZERKS"

So would you use the same argument for a barbarian using Arma? Arma is their hardest hitting skill just as Rift is our's, yet both are AoEs.

Let's continue assuming Kyougu's gear (+12 Adversity with 18,416 average base phys attack with 174 attack levels).

Sage Earthen Rift does base phys damage + 430% weapon damage
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+(18,416*4.3)
99,305+79,189=178,494 average damage for Rift

Sage Headhunt (our strongest single-target skill) does base phys damage + 100% weapon damage
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+18,416
99,305+18,416=117,729 average damage for Headhunt

Both take the same time to cast, but Rift does 66% greater damage, uses no chi, and is 3.75 times more spammable than Headhunt. So what if it's AoE? Your argument is stupid.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

OP, your math is very impressive and yes, using several QS skills would be more effective than the long cast of Rift, but you seem to be forgetting one thing; stun. More likely than not a sin will have its 1v1 target stunned before he uses Rift (that is if the sin has any sort of skill) which, as Zsw already pointed out, is wanted for a one-shot to go right past a charm.
So would you use the same argument for a barbarian using Arma? Arma is their hardest hitting skill just as Rift is our's, yet both are AoEs.

So far in my own personal experience earthen rift has never hit harder than demon throatcut or demon slipstream strike, even on critzerks.

And comparing arma against earthen rift if we talk about equal geared players (HA vs LA sets)? Really?
Why don't we just compare wizard hailstorm vs bids instead? They're also both AOE! b:shutup

Typhyse - Sanctuary

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And comparing arma against earthen rift if we talk about equal geared players (HA vs LA sets)? Really?
Why don't we just compare wizard hailstorm vs bids instead? They're also both AOE! b:shutup

Then please do. By doing so you'd only be further invalidating your "Oi, why are you using an AoE against one target?" argument.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So far in my own personal experience earthen rift has never hit harder than demon throatcut or demon slipstream strike, even on critzerks.

Probably because you don't have gear anywhere near like that of Kyougu's, which OP used for the comparison. He gets so much extra damage from crit% and attack levels that those skills do little, while the insanely high base damage of Throatcut and Slipstream would favor someone with a weaker base attack and little to no attack levels.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then please do. By doing so you'd only be further invalidating your "Oi, why are you using an AoE against one target?" argument.

I'm not invalidating my own argument, AOE's are meant to be used in groups of mobs/people, not against 1 mob/person.

Again, earthen never did more damage than demon slipstream or throatcut b:bye
My best guess is that people don't read the skill description properly.

Oh, you replied later to it, right.

And no, i'm talking about 137 attack levels currently to where earthen rift still doesn't outdamage them.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I love how you completely ignored the point where I said I never dealt more damage on earthen over 2 other demon skills.

Edited. I don't always write everything at once.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not invalidating my own argument, AOE's are meant to be used in groups of mobs/people, not against 1 mob/person.

That means what? We can use skills how we so desire.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Again, earthen never did more damage than demon slipstream or throatcut b:bye
My best guess is that people don't read the skill description properly.

Read my edit. I do read skill descriptions. Those skills have a high base damage, making them more effective for someone with low base attack and attack levels, while an OP PK player would benefit more from Rift's 430% weapon damage due to attack levels, +12 refine, and 66% crit.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And no, i'm talking about 137 attack levels currently to where earthen rift still doesn't outdamage them.

Still assuming Kyougu's gear...

Sage Earthen Rift does base phys damage + 430% weapon damage
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+(18,416*4.3)
99,305+79,189=178,494 average damage for Rift

Demon Slipstream does base physical damage + 100% weapon + 6,633
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+18,415+6,633
99,305+18,415+6,633=124,253 average damage for Slipstream

Demon Throatcut does Base physical damage + 7,331.2
You can tell just by looking at the description that this does about 17k less that Slipstream.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Edited. I don't always write everything at once.

That means what? We can use skills how we so desire.

Read my edit. I do read skill descriptions. Those skills have a high base dagame, making them more effective for someone with low base attack and attack levels, while an OP PK player would benefit more from Rift's 430% weapon damage due to attack levels, +12 refine, and 66% crit.


Still assuming Kyougu's gear...

Sage Earthen Rift does base phys damage + 430% weapon damage
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+(18,416*4.3)
99,305+79,189=178,494 average damage for Rift

Demon Slipstream does base physical damage + 100% weapon + 6,633
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+18,415+6,633
99,305+18,415+6,633=124,253 average damage for Slipstream

Demon Throatcut does Base physical damage + 7,331.2
You can tell just by looking at the description that this does about 17k less that Slipstream.

As I figured, your skill description is flawed.
it's 4.3x WEAPON damage, not 4.3x base Physical damage. b:cute
So not 18.416*4.3.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As I figured, your skill description is flawed.
it's 4.3x WEAPON damage, not 4.3x base Physical damage. b:cute

Learn formulas.

PWpedia wrote: »

Base Damage

Base damage is the physical \ magical attack shown in your character info ingame. For physical attacks, the base damage is equal to the damage you deal with a normal attack of your weapon.
base damage = attack multiplier * weapon attack

Weapon Attack

Weapon attack in general is how much your weapon contributes to your damage. This is basically the sum of all the physical \ magical attack attribute on player's gear and level.
weapon attack = attack from weapon + attack from shards in weapon + attack from rings and other equipment + character level
Don't forget about the +attack or +max attack adds on the weapon.
Weapon attack can also be gained from attack charms. Ammo contributes to the weapon attack for ranged weapons. Other than character level all other factors of weapon attack are found from equipment. Weapon attack can be increased by refining or sharding damage shard (garnet or sapphire) to weapons.

The only difference between physical damage and weapon attack/damage is attack multipliers such as attack/slaying levels, zerk, and crit.

Edit: Nyeh, I am making one mistake. I'm putting Devotion into weapon damage, thank you. Let me fix that.

Sage Earthen Rift does base phys damage + 430% weapon damage
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+(1,842*4.3)
99,305+7,920=107,225 average damage for Rift

Demon Slipstream does base physical damage + 100% weapon + 6,633
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+1,842+6,633
99,305+1,842+6,633=107,780 average damage for Slipstream

Alright, I shall be stepping off my soapbox now and taking the Walk of Shame back to my alt.

trands

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

By calculating using sage Earthen rift and level 10 Twin Strike, we get the following damages (without zerk or crit):

Lvl 10 Twin Strike (average): 52593.5 damage
Sage Earthen Rift (average): 85968.5 damage

"Well Tsy," you say to me in a patronizing voice, "isn't 85k higher than 52k?"

You gave the answer yourself ... And yes, that is the answer even if you don't really get the importance that dph can have according to the situation. I suggest you take a look at the Wizard forums and all QQ about casters hitting to hard. Go tell them to spam gush rather then casting bids and see how they react b:laugh

While what you say makes perfect sense when sin vs barb (target that you won't easily charm bypass or 1 hit), it's absolutely wrong when considering sin vs psychic (more hits = more damage taken from sov, higher chance to get sealed, arcane class that you might be able to 1 hit or charm bypass).

In short, 6k + 6k is not necesarily better then 10k. That is where your logic fails. And ofc, there is what Sakubatou pointed out about cd.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only difference between physical damage and weapon attack/damage is attack multipliers such as attack/slaying levels, zerk, and crit.

Edit: Nyeh, I am making one mistake. I'm putting Devotion into weapon damage, thank you. Let me fix that.

I know this has already been amended, but the biggest weapon multiplier (and biggest difference between weapon attack and total attack) is your stats. A sin with 600ish dex like the one we're talking about will have 400% weapon damage (4x multipliers) from just their dexterity. In comparison, sage Weapon Mastery is only 90% (.9x multipliers).

With zerk weapons and decent crit rates trying for a charm bipass around 50-65% is always a valid argument. Even against barbs and HA you can hit 10-15k at endgame meaning unless they have 30k hp and huge pdef/def levels they can possibly be charm bipassed. Once a charm has ticked and you have 10 seconds to deal 100% hp then the OP method is much more valid.

WnbTank - Archosaur

The math seemed fine after spending last 12h or so farming <.<. One thing that is wrong though is how you say attack levels give advantage to rift. The relative difference stays the same as both get multiplied by same attack levels, which is its own multiplier and not part of weapon damage multipliers.

Actually going back and looking the math, its wrong due approach I mentioned. Correct method for it is following, using your values:

"Sage Earthen Rift does base phys damage + 430% weapon damage
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+(1,842*4.3)
99,305+7,920=107,225 average damage for Rift"

While we can multiply partially whenever we wish, the form is bit confusing.

[(Basic damage) + (Skill weapon attack multiplier, skill damage)] * crit * attack levels * GoF = damage

[(18,416) + (4,3 * 1,842)] * 1,64 * 2,74 * 1,2 = 142,015

"Demon Slipstream does base physical damage + 100% weapon + 6,633
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+18,415+6,633
99,305+18,415+6,633=124,253 average damage for Slipstream"

Using same formula from earlier:

[(18,416) + (1,842 * 1 + 6,633) * 1,64 * 2,74 * 1,2 = 145,000

I would of expected rift to deal more damage, should check the basic damage of where you got it but too effing tired atm <.<.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

That 1,842 was still incorrect. I derped bad looking at 90% Sage Devotion gives, then reduced base phys attack by 90% ><
So the question is, what is the weapon damage of 18,421 taking away Sage Dagger Devotion's multiplier and the multiplier 766 dex? Like you, Tank, I'm too effing tired to figure it out now.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

That 1,842 was still incorrect. I derped bad looking at 90% Sage Devotion gives, then reduced base phys attack by 90% ><
So the question is, what is the weapon damage of 18,421 taking away Sage Dagger Devotion's multiplier and the multiplier 766 dex? Like you, Tank, I'm too effing tired to figure it out now.

Base dmg = weapon dmg * (mastery + dex/150 + sparks + buffs)

So here

18,421 = X * (0,9 + 766/150)
18,421 = X * (6.01) || / 6.01
18,421 / 6.01 = X
X = 3,065


Which seems higher than it should be, suggesting the 18,421 value has nothing to do with reality or it has some buffs on it accounted for.

Cant have attack levels etc. accounted for it as damage would be higher than that.

trands

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I would of expected rift to deal more damage, should check the basic damage of where you got it but too effing tired atm <.<.

Well, if you count +1000% weap damage on slipstream instead of +100%, it will change the results a bit b:laugh

Didn't really check on anything, just noticed 430% weap damage is noted 1,842*4.3 while 100% weap damage is noted 18,415.

WnbTank - Archosaur

trands wrote: »

Well, if you count +1000% weap damage on slipstream instead of +100%, it will change the results a bit b:laugh

Didn't really check on anything, just noticed 430% weap damage is noted 1,842*4.3 while 100% weap damage is noted 18,415.

Durrr... The 18,415 is basic damage, which is on both skills. I should bother doing the math from ground up on those skills as numbers on last few posts seem to be quite far off. Maybe when I get back in TT3-1, nice few bosses where all you need is macro .

trands

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Durrr... The 18,415 is basic damage, which is on both skills. I should bother doing the math from ground up on those skills as numbers on last few posts seem to be quite far off. Maybe when I get back in TT3-1, nice few bosses where all you need is macro .

Check again, cause that's not what is to be implied from what you wrote :

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

"Demon Slipstream does base physical damage + 100% weapon + 6,633
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20 GoF)+18,415+6,633
99,305+18,415+6,633=124,253 average damage for Slipstream"

Either 2x base damage or typo on the 100% weap damage is what I read. Besides, on rift you did use
(18,416*1.64 crit*2.74 atk lvl*1.20GoF)+(1,842*4.3)

But meh, I'm not really into math. With my simple mind, I would have compared 330% weap damage vs 6,633 from the start, as the rest is the same. Adversity +12 (with r9 + another ring of about 100 physical attack, and 2 G11+ garnets) should get above 2,000 minimum weap attack so I guestimate rift should be doing at least as much damage per hit as slipstream in the case of a super geared sin, while being able to spike quite a bit higher. Any lower quality/refine weap will make the advantage slowly slip to slipstream. I'd say r9 +10 is about where they are roughly equal (on average), but could be a bit more.

WnbTank - Archosaur

trands wrote: »

Check again, cause that's not what is to be implied from what you wrote :



Either 2x base damage or typo on the 100% weap damage is what I read.

But meh, I'm not really into math. With my simple mind, I would have compared 330% weap damage vs 6,633 from the start, as the rest is the same. Adversity +12 (with r9 + another ring of about 100 physical attack, and 2 G11+ garnets) should get above 2,000 minimum weap attack so I guestimate rift should be doing at least as much damage per hit as slipstream in the case of a super geared sin, while being able to spike quite a bit higher.

That is actually a quote, I was too lazy to use real quotes but I thought the common "" would of been enough for it. Quote was there for 2 reasons, 1 to say where I got the numbers and 2 due picking numbers from someone else`s calculations I found bit confusing I felt like I would of been corrected would I misinterpreted what each number meant.

In the end, while it wasnt my work you picked on, you are quite right. The math was wrong, which I also did note already. I still consider values to be off but like I said, somebody has to do the math from ground up. So far discussion has been more along lines its wrong and why it`s wrong as nobody has felt like doing the math for correct numbers.

trands

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

In the end, while it wasnt my work you picked on, you are quite right.

You shouldn't see it as "picking on". Especially since you already stated that the result surprised you b:laugh I also have high doubts on what's written, on the formulae and the values. But starting an arguement about how it should be calculated would just result in an endless discussion about how to obtain the most realistic value that reflects the reality in a game.

Besides, in my opinion there is no need to have detailed values. Nobody is going to notice 100 more raw damage on average on a skill. I'm only interested in how they compare, which one should hit harder and which one can hit harder in my personal setup. That's why I'd simply compare the difference between both.

Tsyn - Raging Tide

I'd like to remind you guys that the original purpose of this thread was to show that, in terms of raw damage per second on average, Twin Strike, Spell Cutter, and Condensed Thorn outperform Earthen Rift. On average, this will always be true, even if my math was slightly distorted in the first section. This thread was meant to benefit the new sins who were just getting into DPH. Anyways...

If Earthen Rift can be used to charm bypass your opponent on anything other than a zc, you'd might as well just powerdash>rift and call it slaughter, not 1v1. You'd get the same end result. I was referring to the endgame PvP, where charmbypass is almost certainly impossible (which is why most wizards use sutra endgame, as opposed to bids or bt).

Slipstream is not included in the category of quick skills, because it falls in the same category as Earthen Rift. It takes a great deal of time to cast.

However, when comparing the usage of Slipstream to Earthen Rift, I think the damage factor is irrelevant. The two damage ranges on each are so close that the case of which one is better is decided more by their channel/cast times.

Slipstream takes .2 seconds to finish channeling; Earthen Rift, .7 seconds. Therefore, when you use one of these skills as a finisher skill, Slipstream is clearly the better choice. The answer as to why is in the time to channel.
If an opponent's charm has cooled down for 9.7 seconds, what happens? If you use Slipstream, it'll hit and maybe kill your opponent. If you use Earthen Rift, their charm has already ticked and you have to repeat the entire process of setting up a kill sequence.
In a similar situation, if someone is moving away from you, Earthen Rift will probably cancel as soon as your opponent is out of range, while Slipstream, because it channels so quickly, would not.

It's like comparing 4aps sparked sage sin to R9 2.86 sparked sage sin. When you look at the numbers only, they seem fabulously close, and its possible to argue over and over against the better choice. However, if you look at the actual case at hand, where a sage 4aps can permaspark and use powerdash/etc, whereas a 2.86 can not, we THEN see the real answer.

Adroit - Lost City

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'd like to remind you guys that the original purpose of this thread was to show that, in terms of raw damage per second on average, Twin Strike, Spell Cutter, and Condensed Thorn outperform Earthen Rift. On average, this will always be true, even if my math was slightly distorted in the first section. This thread was meant to benefit the new sins who were just getting into DPH. Anyways...

If Earthen Rift can be used to charm bypass your opponent on anything other than a zc, you'd might as well just powerdash>rift and call it slaughter, not 1v1. You'd get the same end result. I was referring to the endgame PvP, where charmbypass is almost certainly impossible (which is why most wizards use sutra endgame, as opposed to bids or bt).

Slipstream is not included in the category of quick skills, because it falls in the same category as Earthen Rift. It takes a great deal of time to cast.

However, when comparing the usage of Slipstream to Earthen Rift, I think the damage factor is irrelevant. The two damage ranges on each are so close that the case of which one is better is decided more by their channel/cast times.

Slipstream takes .2 seconds to finish channeling; Earthen Rift, .7 seconds. Therefore, when you use one of these skills as a finisher skill, Slipstream is clearly the better choice. The answer as to why is in the time to channel.
If an opponent's charm has cooled down for 9.7 seconds, what happens? If you use Slipstream, it'll hit and maybe kill your opponent. If you use Earthen Rift, their charm has already ticked and you have to repeat the entire process of setting up a kill sequence.
In a similar situation, if someone is moving away from you, Earthen Rift will probably cancel as soon as your opponent is out of range, while Slipstream, because it channels so quickly, would not.

It's like comparing 4aps sparked sage sin to R9 2.86 sparked sage sin. When you look at the numbers only, they seem fabulously close, and its possible to argue over and over against the better choice. However, if you look at the actual case at hand, where a sage 4aps can permaspark and use powerdash/etc, whereas a 2.86 can not, we THEN see the real answer.

Charm bypass is common at endgame, and probably more effective than dps against well geared purify wep users. It usually happens on a headhunt or throatcut from my experience though.

Arctix - Dreamweaver

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All I can say is the following:

Earthen Rift is an AOE skill (you know; AREA of effect) for a reason and if you use it in 1v1 well... yeah... Guess you don't know what an AOE is meant for then.
b:bye

inb4 "BUT MUH CRITZERKS"

U sir just made a psy nearly obsolete in 1v1 b:cry

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Arctix - Dreamweaver wrote: »

U sir just made a psy nearly obsolete in 1v1 b:cry

clearly you must set a macro alternating aqua impact and spirit blast and kill people like mobs

Arctix - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

clearly you must set a macro alternating aqua impact and spirit blast and kill people like mobs

I actually do that wen an idiot r9 barb tries to dig the flag ignoring me

also u forgot landslide

trands

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'd like to remind you guys that the original purpose of this thread was to show that, in terms of raw damage per second on average, Twin Strike, Spell Cutter, and Condensed Thorn outperform Earthen Rift. On average, this will always be true, even if my math was slightly distorted in the first section. This thread was meant to benefit the new sins who were just getting into DPH. Anyways...

Actually, I was under the impression that you intended to point out that using rift in a 1vs1 situation is always dumb and is only done by noob players. As was already pointed out, that is not true. Using rift can be simply a filler in a chain or even have a strategical purpose. The use of this skill sais nothing at all about the assassins competence or intelligence.

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

If Earthen Rift can be used to charm bypass your opponent on anything other than a zc, you'd might as well just powerdash>rift and call it slaughter, not 1v1. You'd get the same end result. I was referring to the endgame PvP, where charmbypass is almost certainly impossible (which is why most wizards use sutra endgame, as opposed to bids or bt).

If dps is the only thing that matters, no sin would be using any skills at all. You wouldn't be using twin strike + random as you suggested in your 1st post. You would be simply auto-attacking. You are the only one who claims charm bypass doesn't exist in an equal geared 1vs1.

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

Slipstream is not included in the category of quick skills, because it falls in the same category as Earthen Rift. It takes a great deal of time to cast.

However, when comparing the usage of Slipstream to Earthen Rift, I think the damage factor is irrelevant. The two damage ranges on each are so close that the case of which one is better is decided more by their channel/cast times.

Slipstream takes .2 seconds to finish channeling; Earthen Rift, .7 seconds. Therefore, when you use one of these skills as a finisher skill, Slipstream is clearly the better choice. The answer as to why is in the time to channel.
If an opponent's charm has cooled down for 9.7 seconds, what happens? If you use Slipstream, it'll hit and maybe kill your opponent. If you use Earthen Rift, their charm has already ticked and you have to repeat the entire process of setting up a kill sequence.
In a similar situation, if someone is moving away from you, Earthen Rift will probably cancel as soon as your opponent is out of range, while Slipstream, because it channels so quickly, would not.

Rift vs slipstream highly depends on the weapon of the sin in question.

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's like comparing 4aps sparked sage sin to R9 2.86 sparked sage sin. When you look at the numbers only, they seem fabulously close, and its possible to argue over and over against the better choice. However, if you look at the actual case at hand, where a sage 4aps can permaspark and use powerdash/etc, whereas a 2.86 can not, we THEN see the real answer.

Your last sentence is actually just an on the paper miracle revelation. There is no answer. Unless you know what you're comparing for, you can't even give an opinion on a comparaison.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Arctix - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I actually do that wen an idiot r9 barb tries to dig the flag ignoring me

also u forgot landslide

no time 4 landslide must hit fasturrrrrrrr

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver

Arctix - Dreamweaver wrote: »

U sir just made a psy nearly obsolete in 1v1 b:cry

We are talking about sins not psys b:bye

Tsyn - Raging Tide

Actually, I was under the impression that you intended to point out that using rift in a 1vs1 situation is always dumb and is only done by noob players. As was already pointed out, that is not true. Using rift can be simply a filler in a chain or even have a strategical purpose. The use of this skill sais nothing at all about the assassins competence or intelligence.

When did I say rift in a 1v1 is dumb? I simply pointed out that Twin strike gives more damage over time. I named the few situations in which I personally use it, and when it's sometimes more effective. Also, I'm perfectly fine with the few skills I have - I don't need any filler other than the ones I already use. I've DPH'd enough to cycle all of my available skills so that I almost never need anything than those three and the occassional ribstrike (which I use more for the sage HP reduction).

If dps is the only thing that matters, no sin would be using any skills at all. You wouldn't be using twin strike + random as you suggested in your 1st post. You would be simply auto-attacking. You are the only one who claims charm bypass doesn't exist in an equal geared 1vs1.

The high point of an APS build is it's damage, and the low point is the squish. The high point of a DPH sin is its armor and high crit rate - but it lacks the DPS of an APS sin. It makes up for this with DPH, but ultimately, the way that DPH works is through the same principles of DPS, when racing a 10 second charm tick. If 1shotting was what sins wanted to do in a 1v1, you would see more triple sparking. Even though DPH sins use skills, they're still mostly used to achieve enough DPS to kill. A DPH sin has an extremely wide range of damage, due to zc's. When there are a lot of zerkcrits, the DPS is higher, simply because you have skills hitting twice or four times as hard.

Rift vs slipstream highly depends on the weapon of the sin in question.

Please show me exactly where I said anything other than "endgame". Meaning, R9 third cast full, or similar. And by the way, I don't believe I see a lot of R9S3 +0 sins running around.

Your last sentence is actually just an on the paper miracle revelation. There is no answer. Unless you know what you're comparing for, you can't even give an opinion on a comparaison.

My main point here was to show that the damage is irrelevant because of the amount of damage reduction at endgame. Between the two skills, there is going to be more variation in damage because of the weapon's random number generator, and not because of the skill itself. My main point here was to point out that Slipstream, if the damage is given to be almost the same, is the better choice.

Oh, and, the DPS of a 4aps sage sin is higher than a 2.86 over long periods of time. More times to use Powerdash/Subsea, and it's not reliant on zerkcrits for damage. I thought this was covered enough times over on this forum.

@Adroit: Yes, I do realize that charm bypasses exist at endgame. I've seen enough 1v1s to know they're effective. However, a sin usually cannot predict a charm bypass, and there are very few, if any, sins who will aim for a kill with a charm bypass in mind. Most of the time, against someone of equal gear, a sin can only charm bypass with a zerk crit. That's roughly 10% of the time, and I don't know any sins who have the patience to wait for a zerk crit... after setting up an opponent's HP for a perfect bypass.
Hmm, I do agree on your point about Purify arcane users. However, I suppose the damage matters less against softer targets, so Slipstream would be justified in that case. I see what you're doing with that.