Sage Intense Form

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  • Skorge - Sanctuary
    Skorge - Sanctuary Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    tweakz wrote: »
    "-Barbarian's new intense Sage True Form now deals 100% damage (same as Demon). This renders Sage True Form being at a much higher advantage than Demon than before."

    (It's an undocumented change, Sage True Form (single skill) already had the advantage (as a single skill)) 'Mistake' can't even be found on that page.

    Should we list demon barb's single skill advantages? -Should we call them mistakes?

    Ok, the usage of the word "Mistake" was incorrect, because whether it is a mistake or intentional needs to be explicitly stated (or existent long enough that we get used to it and stop complaining).

    Single skill advantages across the demon/sage barbarian aren't the topic of discussion here. The topic of discussion is the imbalance in the "True Form" skill that happened to have been implemented, comparing the two, and seeing what else they will effect directly.

    As stated before, the trade-off for this individual skill was the extra HP + the extra % movement speed as opposed to demons who got the ability to do deal full damage while transformed.
    However, with the change the balance between the skill is way off which ends up giving the sage barb a higher advantage. With the change Sages gained the demon specialty + spammable chi. While the demons gained a negligible less % chance of someone landing a crit on them.
  • MesmerizeYou - Heavens Tear
    MesmerizeYou - Heavens Tear Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    All i can see is Demon Barbs QQing throughout the thread. Half of them are the same people who advocated Demon barbs being the best over sage/having multiple skills way better than what the Sages get.
    Just coz PW decided to remove a minor thing like the 50% damage reduction which is actually irrelevant in the PWI of TODAY, I dont see why are you guys being butthurt.


    Just for sake of an arguement, Sage barbs always got a small +10% extra hp boost over demon barbs but That didnt stopped you guys from going Demon and +10'ing your gear with JOSDs in everything. Just now PW decides to remove a small "trouble" for the sage barbs -that too only limited to tiger form- you guys start crying?

    NOTHING has really changed for Demon barbs, everything and everyone is still the same. The small damage reduction removal DOES NOT make Sage Barbs OP. Demon barbs still retain all their skills with a big boost which they had over Sages . If you got nothing better to qq about, delete your demon barb or simply stop playing it and go play one of your other +10'd class.
  • Skorge - Sanctuary
    Skorge - Sanctuary Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    MesmerizeYou - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Just coz PW decided to remove a minor thing like the 50% damage reduction which is actually irrelevant in the PWI of TODAY, I dont see why are you guys being butthurt.

    How exactly is the 50% damage irrelevant? 50% damage makes a huge difference (as its half of your damage).
    Just for sake of an arguement, Sage barbs always got a small +10% extra hp boost over demon barbs but That didnt stopped you guys from going Demon and +10'ing your gear with JOSDs in everything. Just now PW decides to remove a small "trouble" for the sage barbs -that too only limited to tiger form- you guys start crying?

    1)What percentage of the barbarian community are you talking about thats +10 all JoSD (the correct exaggeration about gear is +12 all JoSD btw..,)? the 5% or the 95%?

    2)Not a small trouble, it was a balancing feature of the skill which the removal of causes an imbalance.
    NOTHING has really changed for Demon barbs, everything and everyone is still the same. The small damage reduction removal DOES NOT make Sage Barbs OP. Demon barbs still retain all their skills with a big boost which they had over Sages . If you got nothing better to qq about, delete your demon barb or simply stop playing it and go play one of your other +10'd class.

    1) Everything and everyone is not the same, addition of new things change the status quo
    2) Nobody said that the new skills made the Sage barb OP, the people who did say anything said that there was a huge imbalance in the skills.
    3) What exactly is this big boost? Most of the boosts that a barb would get were balanced and spread out across the benefits of other skills
  • bolocactu
    bolocactu Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Sweetiebot give Skorge - Sanctuary 10 points for making sense.
    I might be black
  • SweetieBot - Lothranis
    SweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    bolocactu wrote: »
    Sweetiebot give Skorge - Sanctuary 10 points for making sense.
    bolocactu awards 10 points to Skorge - Sanctuary!
    Skorge - Sanctuary now has a total of 10 points and is in 32nd place.
    bolocactu can still award another 20 points today.

    Check this thread for the current high scores and to learn how to award points to others.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • bolocactu
    bolocactu Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Sweetiebot am I your friend?
    I might be black
  • SweetieBot - Lothranis
    SweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    bolocactu wrote: »
    Sweetiebot am I your friend?
    Do you want to be my friend?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • bolocactu
    bolocactu Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    SweetieBot - Lothranis wrote: »
    Do you want to be my friend?

    Yes I do
    I might be black
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Skorge - Sanctuary wrote: »
    How exactly is the 50% damage irrelevant? 50% damage makes a huge difference (as its half of your damage).
    WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »
    Actually difference was marginal: -50% weapon from True Form, +10% from Titans, -10% from Poison Fang, +25% from A&H Mastery = -25%. 25% weapon attack though is seriously marginal on endgame builds, under 5% DPH difference. If I can remember correctly, Barb has bout 600% weapon damage multiplier on endgame, 25% / 600% x 100% = 4.1%. On other hand Sage had same advantage to DPH on humanoid.

    50% your weapon damage isnt 50% of your damage. Weapon attack gets multiplied trough several multipliers and 50% of weapon attack is only half of 100%, not of 600%.
    Trolling Sid since So Hot :o
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    I wouldn't be too worried about it honestly, there are lots of problems with both untamed forms at the moment which is typical for a PWI expansion release. Most likely the forms bonuses will be corrected in the next patch or when the next big addition comes out.
  • MesmerizeYou - Heavens Tear
    MesmerizeYou - Heavens Tear Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Skorge - Sanctuary wrote: »
    How exactly is the 50% damage irrelevant? 50% damage makes a huge difference (as its half of your damage).

    50% dmg is NOT half of your damage. If that were the case a Sage barb with 5000-10000 physical attack in tiger form before the update should have got 10000-20000 phy atk after, and as well as in normal form.

    1)What percentage of the barbarian community are you talking about thats +10 all JoSD (the correct exaggeration about gear is +12 all JoSD btw..,)? the 5% or the 95%?

    2)Not a small trouble, it was a balancing feature of the skill which the removal of causes an imbalance.

    1)There are too many barbs with r9s1 till s3 gear now, and yes they do form a major community of players having a [highly geared] barb alt in current pwi. Also MOST of the demon barbs are actually r9 as compared to sage ones - and thats big number of those out there.
    2)It was a balancing skill - till they released r9s1/s2/s3. Now that (removal of) small reduction does not matter much. The Forms are only one of the skill types of the class. Demons already had multiple skills that were much better than Sage ones - you can check it in all those so many threads about Demon Vs Sage Barb in these subforums from before the update.

    1) Everything and everyone is not the same, addition of new things change the status quo
    2) Nobody said that the new skills made the Sage barb OP, the people who did say anything said that there was a huge imbalance in the skills.
    3) What exactly is this big boost? Most of the boosts that a barb would get were balanced and spread out across the benefits of other skills

    1)Yes things does change. Removal of the small damage penalty for Sage barbs is not that big of an issue so as to make the class imbalanced between the two paths.
    2)This whole thread is about Demon barbs qqing how unfair it is for them since Sages now deal full damage in true form.
    3)Again, check the numerous Sage Vs Demon threads and the responses of Demon barbs in there talking about how almost every skill is better than Sage ones. I know the skills were acually meant to balance out both the paths, but with the current endgame gear, Demons already receive big bonuses compared to Sages. The Damage reduction removal only evens out the playfield for Sage barbs to some extent. AGAIn, it NOT a big damage boost for the Sages.

    Answers in Lime
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    MesmerizeYou - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Answers in Lime

    Can't quote you since you didn't quote properly but...

    This was an unintentional gain that was not meant to happen. Whether it balances things, unbalances things in sages favor, or things were balanced enough previously in not decidable. 'Balanced' in an MMO is a perspective. Thousands of barbs have chosen sage, fully knowing or at least having the resources to know the poisitves and negatives of the culti. They chose 10% more hp, 50% buff, and higher defenses instead of higher crit, more spammable aggro skills, and full damage in tiger form.

    So, if sages thought demon was actually that much better previously they have always fully had the option to pick it. They didn't because they either thought the culti was balanced or that sage was actually better. There are roughly an equal amount of sage barbs and demon barbs.

    What bothers the demon barbs is we looked at the culti options and thought 37k hp endgame and full damage or 40k hp endgame? Well, I value aggro and damage output. Then we consciously chose to sacrifice hp and def gain for damage and aggro gain. Those that chose hp/def gain and damage loss are suddenly handed what they gave up and apparently have been "missing" the whole time despite choosing against it.

    Most of these barbs that want full damage are the same barbs that run around with 150 vit and minimum strength, Pan Gu's Giant Axes at level 100 "for the shield" then QQ about aggro problems. Or have +10 armor and vit shards, and +3 weapon with flawless. Don't ignore damage and then QQ that others have more damage and aggro then you.

    Btw, I wanted to clarify: Tiger form damage reduction is -50% of weapon damage. This is actually only about 10-20% of damage dealt depending on your stats (more strength/endgame gear means less difference). This means if you have 450 strength, +100% axe mastery, +50% titans, +40% Poison Fang, and +physical attack rings and adds on gear then you should be running around 515% of your weapon damage. It's -50% from that 515% damage, so only about 10-20%.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • SeaI - Sanctuary
    SeaI - Sanctuary Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Ugh enough Q.Q thread.

    Sage rules.
    Demon blows.

    pwcn believes that & made this change because sage is epic.
    enough said.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    SeaI - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ugh enough Q.Q thread.

    Sage rules.
    Demon blows.

    pwcn believes that & made this change because sage is epic.
    enough said.

    I enjoy the assortment of facts you have to back your claim. Well played sir.

    Your honor, my opponent is guilt because he blows and I rule. Closing argument. Nuff' said. <~best lawyer ever?
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Panzzy - Sanctuary
    Panzzy - Sanctuary Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    I think the demon barbs are over exaggerating a little. yea we have a better panda form but you guys are flexible in tanking and or dealing dmg. we are only forced to tank. now its a little more balanced if you ask me.
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    why all this we and you ? b:surrender Cant we be one happy barb family ? b:cute
  • Skorge - Sanctuary
    Skorge - Sanctuary Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »
    why all this we and you ? b:surrender Cant we be one happy barb family ? b:cute

    It's because it takes any type of change to upset the status quo and make this a nice whole big dysfunctional family b:pleased
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Panzzy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think the demon barbs are over exaggerating a little. yea we have a better panda form but you guys are flexible in tanking and or dealing dmg. we are only forced to tank. now its a little more balanced if you ask me.

    Didn't realize that when you chose your culti?

    I just want to hear ever sage barb who thinks this was needed for balance to say they were an idiot to pick sage in the first place and now NEED this change. Otherwise you picked sage because you already thought the culti was balanced or sage was better and you don't need or deserve this error in your favor.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    I was an idiot b:laugh

    I chose sage because of insignificant things like prefering sage bestial rage, FR and devour as those were the main skills i had been using for the first 80 levels and i didnt realise they would be relatively useless now b:chuckle
  • Knighthunt - Sanctuary
    Knighthunt - Sanctuary Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Didn't realize that when you chose your culti?

    I just want to hear ever sage barb who thinks this was needed for balance to say they were an idiot to pick sage in the first place and now NEED this change. Otherwise you picked sage because you already thought the culti was balanced or sage was better and you don't need or deserve this error in your favor.

    you mean sage is better not was nuff said
  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    I chose sage mostly because of the 1 hour HP buff I could give my alt box toons. I didn't see a big difference otherwise. As mentioned: the sunder/arma combo doesn't always work and I was swaying more toward str (or all skill dmg) than hp or a 2 hit combo anyway.
  • Panzzy - Sanctuary
    Panzzy - Sanctuary Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Didn't realize that when you chose your culti?

    I just want to hear ever sage barb who thinks this was needed for balance to say they were an idiot to pick sage in the first place and now NEED this change. Otherwise you picked sage because you already thought the culti was balanced or sage was better and you don't need or deserve this error in your favor.

    I chose sage because it was my preference PVE mostly. demon barbs can pve AND pvp. so yes that makes us sage barbs idiots and demon barbs smart right? lol logic?b:chuckle
  • Crazy__erik - Heavens Tear
    Crazy__erik - Heavens Tear Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    <---demon barb (damn good one too) I chose it for PVE not PVP as I have never been in pk since I joined.
    I am a tank, I can tank anything out there in the game and still hold aggro. It's why I chose demon. Threat level, mine is very high.
    I am not rank 9, but I have great gear for a non paying player and I kill a lot of rank 9's cause they don't know how to play. I score very well in NW.
    That said....
    Fix this.
    I am not "qq'ing" I am merely saying this was a mistake. I am a demon barb, I am good, I do not need to delete my character cause chances are I am better than your sage barb. I am not an aps barb. I am a tank.

    The **** stupid panda that looks like a drug dealer is a mistake. Fix it. -crit defense is not a good alternative for what all the fat *** pasta eating sage barbs got. I'm weird, I don't like sitting around watching people hit me, I like to hit back. Sage barbs are fine with being doughnuts. It was their choice, let them deal with it. This was a very unnessasary adjustment, as most liitle cubs wanted to go grow up and be sage anyhow...only a few of us were trying to show that demon tanks mattered. Now you kind took that away.
    Fix it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CroPsy - Heavens Tear
    CroPsy - Heavens Tear Posts: 476 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    I hope they will leave it as it is now. It's not balance problem it's balance solution.
    Barbs need more DD, specially in True Form.

    It only affects that handful of Demon barbs, who now feel unloved b:cry

    But really, It's rare to see Demon barb, so stop QQ-ing and accept it! There are a lot more Sage barbs that will profit from this, than there is Demon barb that will feel cheated.

    And let's see why most of the barbs took demon in the first place? - Cause Nirvana.

    And you can always do your culti and switch to Sage... since I guess skills doesn't matter...
  • Skorge - Sanctuary
    Skorge - Sanctuary Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    CroPsy - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    And let's see why most of the barbs took demon in the first place? - Cause Nirvana.

    Of course, there are always the people that assume demon barbs are fist barbs just because demon spark = an attack speed boost.

    So now I would like to use this type of argument because I see that its so popular...

    Sage barbs are panzys that feel more secure with an extra % of hp bonus, and don't feel that they can survive without it. On the other hand demon barbs don't need to have this extra % of hp because they are much much much better than sages.

    Please stop using that twisted line of logic, it makes you seem...I dunno...kinda bad at holding a discussion
  • VKnightV - Lost City
    VKnightV - Lost City Posts: 381 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Skorge - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Of course, there are always the people that assume demon barbs are fist barbs just because demon spark = an attack speed boost.

    So now I would like to use this type of argument because I see that its so popular...

    Sage barbs are panzys that feel more secure with an extra % of hp bonus, and don't feel that they can survive without it. On the other hand demon barbs don't need to have this extra % of hp because they are much much much better than sages.

    Please stop using that twisted line of logic, it makes you seem...I dunno...kinda bad at holding a discussion

    i was doing fine as a pure str sage barb so this boost of DPH vs demon crith is so much needed.

    and i tho demon was all about criths

    and yes aps
  • Skorge - Sanctuary
    Skorge - Sanctuary Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »
    i was doing fine as a pure str sage barb so this boost of DPH vs demon crith is so much needed.

    and i tho demon was all about criths

    and yes aps

    If you were doing fine as a pure strength barb why do you think this boost of DPH is "so much needed".

    Also demon barbarian might be all about the crits, but aps? Just because these forums (which i must say, have been very depressing over the years) are filled with threads about undergeared barbs wanting to join the aps frenzy, doesn't mean all demon barbs should be lumped in with them.

    Oh look! A sage APS build. http://pwcalc.com/2f5c9a06f5117766

    Now I can say sage is all about teh aps'ing b:victory

    In all seriousness, my point was; just because there is an option to do it, and people do go down that path (mostly alts, not mains) doesn't mean that EVERYONE does it. Also it's become like a stereotype, and we all know judging people based on stereotypes is wrong D=
  • Colum - Raging Tide
    Colum - Raging Tide Posts: 1,696 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    Crazy__erik - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    <---demon barb (damn good one too) I chose it for PVE not PVP as I have never been in pk since I joined.
    I am a tank, I can tank anything out there in the game and still hold aggro. It's why I chose demon. Threat level, mine is very high.
    I am not rank 9, but I have great gear for a non paying player and I kill a lot of rank 9's cause they don't know how to play. I score very well in NW.
    That said....
    Fix this.
    I am not "qq'ing" I am merely saying this was a mistake. I am a demon barb, I am good, I do not need to delete my character cause chances are I am better than your sage barb. I am not an aps barb. I am a tank.

    The **** stupid panda that looks like a drug dealer is a mistake. Fix it. -crit defense is not a good alternative for what all the fat *** pasta eating sage barbs got. I'm weird, I don't like sitting around watching people hit me, I like to hit back. Sage barbs are fine with being doughnuts. It was their choice, let them deal with it. This was a very unnessasary adjustment, as most liitle cubs wanted to go grow up and be sage anyhow...only a few of us were trying to show that demon tanks mattered. Now you kind took that away.
    Fix it.

    +1 right here, my points exactly.

    b:victory let's keep rolling teh server
    Leader of Cyanure on Valonsurma and a proud member of Vertu
    Demon Strength Barbarian 103/103/101

    Demon Pure Mag Cleric 102/102/101 | Demon 4 APS Assassin 102/102/101 | Demon Pure Mag Mystic 102/101/101 | Demon Pure Mag Psychic 100/100/93 | Demon 4 APS-Barbarian 100/100 | HA-venomancer 100 | DPH Assassin 100 | Pure Mag Wizard 100 | Demon Pure Mag Stormbringer 96 | Demon DPS Archer 94 | Sage Vit Barbarian 93 | Demon All-Path Blademaster 93 | Str Seeker 86 | Pure Mag Venomancer 81 | Pure Mag Wizard 81 | Pure Dex Duskblade 47
  • CroPsy - Heavens Tear
    CroPsy - Heavens Tear Posts: 476 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    CroPsy - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    And let's see why most of the barbs took demon in the first place? - Cause Nirvana.
    Skorge - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Please stop using that twisted line of logic, it makes you seem...I dunno...kinda bad at holding a discussion
    Skorge - Sanctuary wrote: »
    In all seriousness, my point was; just because there is an option to do it, and people do go down that path (mostly alts, not mains) doesn't mean that EVERYONE does it.
    I didn't said all barbs are going for 5APS, I said most of them.
  • Skorge - Sanctuary
    Skorge - Sanctuary Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited March 2013
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    CroPsy - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I didn't said all barbs are going for 5APS, I said most of them.


    Ok then, let me correct my statement.

    Even saying most barbs went demon so they can go down the APS route, because of nirvana is still a general statement about all demon barbs. Saying this, your actually saying that most demon barbs are indeed fist barbs, which can't really be proven unless you did a major survey across all players (across all servers) who have demon barbs as their mains.

    So on this point my friend I will have to disagree with you, very strongly. I will not even agree to disagree with you. I simply disagree.

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