Sage Intense Form

Blue__Lycan - Sanctuary

So is the no longer reduced damage on it a bug or intended? Because if that's intended I feel jipped hard. The demon version seems pretty weak and not worth the effort for anything more then looks. The sage version looks like it's the best thing ever.. I mean free spammable chi AND no longer reduced damage ON TOP of what they already had with their 40% hp and 90% movement speed, and all demon gets is a 6 second weak buff. This can't be right.

Veneir - Dreamweaver

Veno butterfly forme/imbued forme has no mana decrease, so since barb damage decrease was like the equivilant of this, I don't think it was an accident at all. o-o
...I hope they fix the buff that demon barbs in-forme are supposed to get that essentially lowers the crit. of anyone that attacks them by 5% soon !

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Hard to say, the description for Sage True Form (Intensified) no longer mentions a p.atk reduction.......so yea....

Pretty sure its a bug, if not, then obviously Demon barbs will need some sort of compensation.

Blue__Lycan - Sanctuary

Well the reduced damage was the special effect about normal demon True Form. However sage gets our effect but we don't get theirs. If this is intended I at least expect to get 40% hp and 90% movement speed too.

Flarephoenix - Dreamweaver

I think this update was intentional and aimed at balancing the cultivations a little more while giving sage a much needed damage boost, demon still has the higher damage overall with crit-rate boosts, more powerful armageddon and more controls skills for PvP.

Blue__Lycan - Sanctuary

It's a trade off however, they have lower damage but they get increased passive physical res., increased movement speed, 10% more hp (goes a long way on barbs) and they can reduce magic attack power with their roar. It comes down to how you play. Combining both forms together... deprieves the point in having demon or sage forms in the first place. It's also worth noting Sunder is 95% crit rate when you actually look at the character screen and onslaught is a humanoid form skill which isn't effected by true form at all except for less tankability/mobility.

That's my way of looking at it at least.

Edit: The above changed post.
New response: The PvP part is true however this again falls under the trade off thing. Also the decreased magic attack is still pretty good in mass PvP when you see a bunch of wizards or psychics. There's various ways to control PvP with sage barbs but yes demon barbs have it better, but again... trade offs you lose control to gain survivability. Also, sage barbs generally pull catapults/flags while demon barbs support them. Though that's not to say demon barbs can't do it.

XeroFlareXL - Harshlands

first off demon barbs get atk rate sage barbs get damage reduction and just because demon barbs that go claws or fists whine dont mean its fair ,sage is meant for tanking and demon is meant for pvp so thats one reason demon should have teh damage reductiion coz sage barbs can use teh patk for keepin agro where demons just mainlyuse it for their wannabe aps purposes. demon is not sage and will never be better than sage so give it up and al lyou demon barbs quit whining

Blue__Lycan - Sanctuary

Your post was too illiterate for me to make a real comment to that. But I will say this: Sage/Demon devour agro are based off 20% of your max hp, not physical attack. Same goes for bezerker's wrath, and Stomp of the King too I believe. The extra attack will not help you keep agro any better then more hp due to these, along side the fact aps sins/bms will surely out DD you.

Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary

Anyone who goes demon on a barb shouldn't be playing anyway. Uninstall.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Flarephoenix - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think this update was intentional and aimed at balancing the cultivations a little more while giving sage a much needed damage boost, demon still has the higher damage overall with crit-rate boosts, more powerful armageddon and more controls skills for PvP.

The point here seems to be there is no trade-off. If option A has everything option B does and more, what point there is for option B to exist? When it came to to True form, the trade-off is quite clearly more dmg for demon, more defenses for sages. Now? If They took the reduction off sage true form, sage will hit plain harder in true form. Demon will have only have crits, sage will have higher DPH and defenses when it comes to true form. Which really isnt balanced.

If this was intended, I am going to bother with OHT culti and change to sage myself. Well would if I could force myself to spend 100m+ in books on toon, which has turned into my kittyshop. The buffs alone have made wish I had gone sage instead though, drives me crazy every single time I buff on my barb. Then again this might be the reason I finally change and gear barb enough to be useful in TWs.

XeroFlareXL - Harshlands

your forgetting flesh ream and untamed wrath both are agro skills and flesh ream is based off base damage no bonus (%wep damage ) and no other abilities than a small bleed ,flesh ream is also teh most used agro skill of any barb. devour barely does anything for agro

Blue__Lycan - Sanctuary

Clearly your devour isn't demon or sage then. Flesh ream is used a lot but there are other things too (also Flesh ream doesn't agro much better based off your damage anyway), and if you REALLY use untamed wrath for agro on bosses there's something wrong with this picture. I also repeat 20% hp goes a looooong way on barbs.

Panzzy - Sanctuary

XeroFlareXL - Harshlands wrote: »

your forgetting flesh ream and untamed wrath both are agro skills and flesh ream is based off base damage no bonus (%wep damage ) and no other abilities than a small bleed ,flesh ream is also teh most used agro skill of any barb. devour barely does anything for agro

yes flesh ream is based off the damage, but it doesn't help ur agro be any stronger. untamed wrath is barely used. humanoid skills for agro isn't really worth doing if ur on a boss or delta etc. roar is much better to use.

Flarephoenix - Dreamweaver

The damage reduction itself was from a time much earlier in the game before the OP gear we have now, what's to say the developers didn't reach the conclusion that it's takes too much from a barb's damage output at endgame? I've seen enough players consider the extra physical defense gained by sage a poor trade-off with the gear available now for the damage they lose, advice is always roll demon as you gain a lot more damage and other bonuses where the defense gained by sage does not compare.

I agree it's not a fair move but the barb cultivations were never truly balanced and that became more obvious as more powerful gear became available.

Blue__Lycan - Sanctuary

This is true it takes away more now that the gear is better, however they also gain more hp due to this and we lose more as such; the trade offs still there. Now another thing, it's DEFINATELY worth noting that sage barbs now get this AND the passive Axe and Hammer mastery. Not only do they get their damage back but they GAIN some too over demons.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Flarephoenix - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The damage reduction itself was from a time much earlier in the game before the OP gear we have now, what's to say the developers didn't reach the conclusion that it's takes too much from a barb's damage output at endgame? I've seen enough players consider the extra physical defense gained by sage a poor trade-off with the gear available now for the damage they lose, advice is always roll demon as you gain a lot more damage and other bonuses where the defense gained by sage does not compare.

I agree it's not a fair move but the barb cultivations were never truly balanced and that became more obvious as more powerful gear became available.

Actually difference was marginal: -50% weapon from True Form, +10% from Titans, -10% from Poison Fang, +25% from A&H Mastery = -25%. 25% weapon attack though is seriously marginal on endgame builds, under 5% DPH difference. If I can remember correctly, Barb has bout 600% weapon damage multiplier on endgame, 25% / 600% x 100% = 4.1%. On other hand Sage had same advantage to DPH on humanoid.

But I do agree sage was UP. Still they took idiotic way of balancing it if this was intentional, kinda like they did with sage archer buffs. Demon barbs are left with Flesh Ream, though imo sage is almost as good. Demon Roar seems more useful in PvP, though I don think sage is bad either. Demon sunder is still awesome in comparison, arma is still better. Some other skills are bout equal (Like Shapeshifting intensity) imo but the rest? Sage is just plain better with changes.

Blue__Lycan - Sanctuary

Too many numbers I'm just gonna take your word for it. At any rate thanks for the feedback guys. I hope the GMs at least READ this and take some of this stuff into consideration. Going to bed night.
Also demon roar is only good for stupid sins. It is fun to use though when they fall for it.

purewis

ye they just boost Saga barbs power with this update ,
now i feel like dumb if i stay on Demon.

Haila - Sanctuary

purewis wrote: »

ye they just boost Saga barbs power with this update ,
now i feel like dumb if i stay on Demon.

It could be temporary, they might implement more demon/sage panda form skills. I hope it will balance out more by then b:cry
I should wait things out a bit...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

I should wait things out a bit...

Guessing its this.


Kind of makes me roar that for 3+ years some of us have compared culti and thought "more dd/aggro or more defenses?" and based our demon culti choice on appraising damage and aggro over a bit more survivability. Now they just give sages the dd/aggro benefit and give demons... 6 seconds -5% crit chance. Has to be a bad programming writeup or oversight.

If it is to "balance" classes I think its ridiculous. Sage made their choice. Balancing (usually) means one class gets one benefit and the other gets an equal but different benefit. This is just copying skills to balance.

In otherwords, it should be demon's get apples and sage gets an equal amount of oranges to have different but balanced culti options, pick what you prefer. Instead it's demons get apples and sage gets an equal amount of oranges and 3 years later lets give them apples so they have apples too.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

I'm gonna be waiting.

Given my catabarb is an alt, I wont switch if this even stays. But if he was my main, I'd be switching to Sage if this stays.

The balance was fine before, now its totally off. The old balance for cata was Sage was a bit tankier, and demon gained chi faster. That balance is now gone. Rest of the skills balanced each other out.

PvE is not worth mentioning, ever. Unless they're APS, they're both buff alts for OP squads, but Demon did aggro better originally in lower powered squads.

I'm not even bothering with the new skill given I'm demon until the Def level skill comes out. 6 seconds...lulz. I'll prolly do the quest this weekend but Ill save my 6m for now.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

Im sage now but wanted to swich to demon as im going APS. I'll just make a second barb though and have both a demon and a sage one so i wont ever have to think about this again.

So gimme back my FC soon please !

Panzzy - Sanctuary

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Actually difference was marginal: -50% weapon from True Form, +10% from Titans, -10% from Poison Fang, +25% from A&H Mastery = -25%. 25% weapon attack though is seriously marginal on endgame builds, under 5% DPH difference. If I can remember correctly, Barb has bout 600% weapon damage multiplier on endgame, 25% / 600% x 100% = 4.1%. On other hand Sage had same advantage to DPH on humanoid.

But I do agree sage was UP. Still they took idiotic way of balancing it if this was intentional, kinda like they did with sage archer buffs. Demon barbs are left with Flesh Ream, though imo sage is almost as good. Demon Roar seems more useful in PvP, though I don think sage is bad either. Demon sunder is still awesome in comparison, arma is still better. Some other skills are bout equal (Like Shapeshifting intensity) imo but the rest? Sage is just plain better with changes.

I am a sage barb and I find this a bit unfair myself. don't get me wrong I love the change but at the same time its way over powered. I click a button for 2 seconds and use my master Li's tech and get 90 chi, plus no dmg reduction + axe hammer mastery sage. its pretty broken imo and I don't think it was intentional. if it was there will be a lot of demon barbs going sage b:chuckle

Mr_Swiss - Heavens Tear

People are moving too fast on the switching over to sage from demon. It's only been 1 day since the update. The future brings new skills for the panda. I can bet that all those that switch, which is what pwi wants people to do so they make money off of them, will be regretting it later when the new skills come.

I'm very much looking forward to this one:

Feast of the Demons [again not a demon skill, just barb form skill]
Consume 1 Spark.
Accuracy increases by 300%, Defense Level by 40 for 60 seconds.
Can not be removed.
Requires Panda form to use.
Cooldown is not shared.

Sazzora - Harshlands

Idk what the fuzz is about. Demon was always better than sage was and this makes the gap smaller imo.

At r9.3rd cast +12 with 600str build sage will only have ~500min-900max atk more than demon and then we are not counting the extra dmg from demon poison fang. Which makes the extra dmg sage have to be smaller.

Yes, sage still got the extra hp/pdef in tigerform and more chi skill.
While demon got the sexy crits, harder hitting arma, more accu etc.

I for sure wont change to sage just cuz of bit more hp and slightly more patk
love the demon skills way too much.

But this will for sure make sage a more viable option

Skorge - Sanctuary

The Sage full attack bonus was confirmed to be a mistake, check the "undocumented changes" thread in the general discussion section and see for yourself. Ill even post it for ya!

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1574821

Anyways, I feel like I wanna discuss this a little more than just being upset over it. As a demon barbarian myself, the only thing I really feel iffy about is the chi gain advantage that sage barbs have received.

Lets do some easy calculations shall we? (Because everyone knows that only archers can do hard math).


1) Let's do the potential chi gain of a demon barb first.

(Calculation's are not in-battle because it would need include differences in bestial rage)

(Also keep in mind that demon buff also gives team mates 20 chi each cast...but we're being selfish here, who cares about other people? b:victory)

The only chi gain skill of a demon barb is BKI, this can be casted every 5.5 seconds (total casting + cooldown), costs 495 mana to use, and will result in an extra 35 chi.

Mana Chi Time

495 = 35 @ 2.5s
990 = 70 @ 8s
1485 = 105 @ 13.5s
1980 = 140 @ 19s
2475 = 175 @ 24.5s
2970 = 210 @ 30s
3465 = 245 @ 35.5s
3960 = 280 @ 41s
4455 = 315 @ 46.5s
4950 = 350 @ 52s
5445 = 385 @ 57.5s
5940 = 399/400 (full) @ 63s


2) Sage Chi Gain

Now, Sage Barbs now have two different ways of gaining chi, the standard Sage skill (forgot name) and now the super transformation skill!
-Chi gain skill is instant and has a minute cooldown
-Adv. Tiger form gives 20 chi instant and then every 3 seconds for 100 mana

Mana Chi Time

0 = 50 @ 0s
100 = 70 @ .5s (because it takes time to move clicker)
200 = 90 @ 3.5s
300 = 110 @ 5.5s
400 = 130 @ 7.5s
500 = 150 @ 9.5s
600 = 170 @ 11.5s
700 = 190 @ 13.5s
800 = 210 @ 15.5s
900 = 230 @ 17.5s
1000 = 250 @ 19.5s
1100 = 270 @ 21.5s
1200 = 290 @ 23.5s
1300 = 310 @ 25.5s
1400 = 330 @ 27.5s
1500 = 350 @ 29.5s
1600 = 370 @ 31.5s
1700 = 390 @ 33.5s
1800 = 399/400 @ 35.5s

In conclusion: In the chi department Sage barbs are far better off than Demons.
1) More efficient in mana food costs
2) Can be used rapidly while tanking (given situations where possible) for quick chi, but demons take too long to cast and may lose agro by then

Any other benefits of the new form (NOT INCLUDING THE FULL DAMAGE!) just list em.

I would say that sage tiger form should be increased in mana cost just to balance it.

tweakz

Skorge - Sanctuary wrote: »

The Sage full attack bonus was confirmed to be a mistake, check the "undocumented changes" thread in the general discussion section and see for yourself. Ill even post it for ya!

"-Barbarian's new intense Sage True Form now deals 100% damage (same as Demon). This renders Sage True Form being at a much higher advantage than Demon than before."

(It's an undocumented change, Sage True Form (single skill) already had the advantage (as a single skill)) 'Mistake' can't even be found on that page.

Should we list demon barb's single skill advantages? -Should we call them mistakes?

tweakz

I can just see it now: "sage barb lf: ***". The only reason I felt sorry for demon venos was because of the idiocy of so many squad makers. The 11-37k you spend to make a squad yourself can be worth it.

Crixxix - Raging Tide

tweakz wrote: »

"-Barbarian's new intense Sage True Form now deals 100% damage (same as Demon). This renders Sage True Form being at a much higher advantage than Demon than before."

(It's an undocumented change, Sage True Form (single skill) already had the advantage (as a single skill)) 'Mistake' can't even be found on that page.

Should we list demon barb's single skill advantages? -Should we call them mistakes?

LOL ^ I agree. It wasn't a mistake, it's how it's supposed to be. Also, this is something that a MOD posted, not a GM. This is the way it's meant to be, and I'll tell you what, demons still have it just as good, if not better. 5% chance to avoid a crit is really useful, especially in NW when you got 3 sins and a seeker on your bum. So quit QQ'ing because we finally get to do just as much damage as when we're in human form. Demon barbs need to uninstall anway.

Skorge - Sanctuary

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

LOL ^ I agree. It wasn't a mistake, it's how it's supposed to be. Also, this is something that a MOD posted, not a GM. This is the way it's meant to be, and I'll tell you what, demons still have it just as good, if not better. 5% chance to avoid a crit is really useful, especially in NW when you got 3 sins and a seeker on your bum. So quit QQ'ing because we finally get to do just as much damage as when we're in human form. Demon barbs need to uninstall anway.

When dealing with high crit rate characters, whats the difference of an extra 5%, 30% and 35% wont make that much of a difference (I dunno how accurate those numbers are, its just an example)? However, I can imagine it would be useful against magic classes where their crit rate is so low it would make a difference in that scenario.

Anyways, I'm not QQ'ing. I simply stated the imbalance between the two true form skills. Originally the differences between the two skills were meant as a balancing act (which I think most people agreed were fair when that was the case).


Another question..really, why should demon barbs uninstall? That was the most nonsequitur (and stupid) statement I've really ever seen in a real discussion.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Skorge - Sanctuary wrote: »

Data

Wow, so much for the Demon Barb chi gain advantage. If it was cheap and easy I'd totally switch to Sage now on my alt catabarb.

That's ****. Even if they lowered the chi gain to be equal to the 63 seconds with or without Li, I'd still be pissed. The entire point of the Demon catabarb was the chi.