Pole Bm

Therkiax - Archosaur

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You basically said the opposite of what I did, pretty much agreeing with me. APS builds are used mainly for PvE, with some use in PvP. It allows a BM to kill single target mobs/bosses quicker than an axe build. Whereass an axe build is far superior for AoEing and getting a high DPH on multiple enemies. Each one is suited to a certain task, and being able to use both would put one at an advantage. Or you know, you could restat pure vit axe build and lose out on the fists. Whichever.

True but if you do fist and axe, you would have to use more money to focus on both paths instead of one. And it also takes an average of two seconds to switch from axe set to aps which is a big down time since if you stun lock 6 seconds and switch to fist and your 3.33aps then you would only hit 6.66 times and then you would change to axe to stun again but when you change opponent will be unstunned so you would have to take the risk to stun faster than the opponent of course unless you used a genie skill to stun or used will of boods. Also the only scenario I see using fist useful is when the opponents stunned and your ganking him with a few others or 1v1 against a barb.

dragonfire3001 wrote: »

thats great still dont see y u would use 1 weapon u want pure vit be a barb ijs

Barbarians have less stuns skills they are more tankers and cata pullers cause of more hp and less damage for skills excluding armageddon .

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Therkiax - Archosaur wrote: »

True but if you do fist and axe, you would have to use more money to focus on both paths instead of one. And it also takes an average of two seconds to switch from axe set to aps which is a big down time since if you stun lock 6 seconds and switch to fist and your 3.33aps then you would only hit 6.66 times and then you would change to axe to stun again but when you change opponent will be unstunned so you would have to take the risk to stun faster than the opponent of course unless you used a genie skill to stun or used will of boods. Also the only scenario I see using fist useful is when the opponents stunned and your ganking him with a few others or 1v1 against a barb.

I think I use aps in pk more than most bms since I don't like to pray for zerks to occur and prefer to create my own damage output. There are several situations for aps gear and several for axe/def gear. It all depends on the battlefield. And you don't have to go completely aps or completely axe/def all at once. I can work a stunlock while switching my gear and you can do it while auto attacking or during channeling so you don't lose dps.

If my opponent is kiting, switch to axe. The newer Morai skills are beautiful for hunting down kiters. Reel In and Reckless Rush are both axe only.

Got an opponent pinned down and no one else is around? Switch to aps. My aps gear is mostly DoTs so whether I'm using axes or fists its a higher dps. If I have my allies around then apsing allows me to keep my chi up to keep them stun locked so my allies can dd.

Got opponents around? Keep axe gear on. If you get into only a 2v1 situation and need chi you can swap one piece, like chest, to increase aps while not losing too much defense.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think I use aps in pk more than most bms

You never saw me wearing claws in nw today b:avoid.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think I use aps in pk more than most bms

b:scorn

Granted if I had something other than Calamity Axes, might use axe more. Even used Monarch more than axes this NW, couldn't believe the barb stood there when I trip sparked. His health definitely showed just when it proc'ed too

EDIT:
Actually, here's a good "for instance" on why one path is not a good idea.

On Sanc there are two BMs who I would be worried about phys marrowing against; one doesn't play anymore and the other is Saku. Because I would expect them to poison pot or Drake's Breath Bash me, then rightfully mock me afterwards.

Now another BM has said on the forum, and in WC, that they are going pure axe only. With them selling off their fist gear, as soon as I saw him alone in a NW map I instantly hit phys marrow. Because I know how much more limited their choices are in dealing with different situations.

Now imagine what happens when everyone starts to see the more one dimensional BMs making a resurgenece. They know what few things to expect, and can start dealing with it even easier than normal. Though it will be fun messing with them in game.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Ugh this topic seems to be all the rage lately.

Me right now:
pwcalc.com/b2d7b43d7dad94c9

Me at old school (60 dex) Pure Axe Strength:
http://pwcalc.com/405521aeca896f4d
14.8% Damage Gain
0 HP Gained
32% Accuracy Loss to LAs
23% Accuracy Loss to APS Bms.
10-15% Accuracy Loss to non dex builds.

Me at old school (60 Dex/50 Vit) Pure Axe:
http://pwcalc.com/4031a40349ed2ba5
10.3% Damage Gain
776 HP Gained
32% Accuracy Loss to LAs
23% Accuracy Loss to APS Bms.
10-15% Accuracy Loss to non dex builds.

Me at old school (60 Dex, Str for weapons) Pure Axe Vit:
http://pwcalc.com/5469aa5afbdad8d6
18.0% Damage Loss
4340 HP Gained
(1400ish MR gained tho...)
32% Accuracy Loss to LAs
23% Accuracy Loss to APS Bms.
10-15% Accuracy Loss to non dex builds.


So I'd say the strength builds are fail. The HUGE loss in accuracy is not worth it, and even vs non LAs and APS BMs, that 10-15% means about a 1/4 1/5 miss rate. Can you imagine that? Go AoE a group, and it misses on every damn LA and APS BM, and then misses on 1/4 of the rest of the classes.

I could see the vit for the lulz. You're not gonna be killing much other than scrubs, and like the strength build not landing much well. But you'd be able to take some nice hits (and should buff to 33697 HP, with a nice MR boost), but you'd pretty much be a stun bot for the rest of your existence and pray your aoes and normal damage stuff hits.

See the accuracy thread. It does make a difference. As BMs, if we don't deliver (HF, AoEs, taking out AAs, etc), the most were gonna do is stand there and take damage. Our auto hit skills aren't enough, and our CCs are nice...when they land.

But its like playing half a BM. The amount of times I waddled into groups in NW and TW this weekend with Blade Tornado, or Stun+HF+AoEs and just outright murdered people is so core. Having 10% of that miss worries the **** out of me. That 30-50% to hit chance on Dex Builds? No way.

Just gonna have to say that pure axe without a good amount of accuracy is fail. I wish I recorded the groups I went in and 10-20ked R9+ groups and 20-32k'ed non def level geared groups (one was a group of 15, one person survived) with BT or Stun/HF/AoE combos to prove my point. You wouldn't get that with the lower accuracy.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wish I recorded the groups I went in and 10-20ked R9+ groups and 20-32k'ed non def level geared groups (one was a group of 15, one person survived) with BT or Stun/HF/AoE combos to prove my point. You wouldn't get that with the lower accuracy.

This might be a specialised combo, but people will target you when they see others fall. Works in tw as well, when people are buffing up around the crystal.

Rush in (full chi), blade tornado (i use pan gu essence), that will take care of AA, most LA around. The people left surviving, if they haven't moved, use stun, hf, aoe, when stun is about to wear off, use ad. Should have enough chi to use will or diamond sutra by now, and a group of 10~30 people should be in 0~4 depending on gear and support. Only got the timing right once in tw. Killed most of the squad that was standing around and buffing at the crystal. I managed to come back out alive. Much harder to do in NW, due to people spread out.

Therkiax - Archosaur

Currently capped my Dex at 200 for the accuracy and evasion and i'm also an axe/fist might use a pole but w/e. The extra Dex does help because opponent misses a lot more and you hit more accurately but really if you were using a build that had high dps but low hit rate you could use 50 percent accuracy rings.

Example:
Build with 60 dex with two 50 percent rings and 445 points left over 1200 accuracy
http://pwcalc.com/981dba88eb684043
Build with 200 dex and 305 points left over no rings 2000 accuracy
http://pwcalc.com/dcf53e8147562b22
Compromise
http://pwcalc.com/90291ce2b4bb4628
Build with 100 dex and 405 points left over 2000 accuracy

You would lose the choice to chose the type of ring you wanted if you went with the ring build because theirs only a few 50 percent boost like ring of trauma and Sign of frost and etc.
But there is a 100 point difference in the 2000 accuracy build with two rings than the 200 dex build so the extra point can make up the choice of the accuracy ring then a regular or better ring.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

This might be a specialised combo, but people will target you when they see others fall. Works in tw as well, when people are buffing up around the crystal.

Rush in (full chi), blade tornado (i use pan gu essence), that will take care of AA, most LA around. The people left surviving, if they haven't moved, use stun, hf, aoe, when stun is about to wear off, use ad. Should have enough chi to use will or diamond sutra by now, and a group of 10~30 people should be in 0~4 depending on gear and support. Only got the timing right once in tw. Killed most of the squad that was standing around and buffing at the crystal. I managed to come back out alive. Much harder to do in NW, due to people spread out.

Been actually doing that in TW for months now with a few other BMs in my faction. We also follow up with blade hurl on and off as well. Key is max chi with pulling it off, and key to success is making sure others (your group) is aware that you're doing that so they can properly follow up.

It's really not more specialized than "antistun+IG, Stun/HF/AoE, Leave" is. It's just a further option. So far depending on timings and cooldowns - if it's heavy lets take out groups of people situations, I'm either going in with BT (and will IG early or towards the end depending on how hard I'm getting hit) or the Stun/HF combo and making sure my party is ready to support. As always puffbird/kitty is a nightmare.

Which brings me into another discussion - Blade Hurl. It's either an issue of people don't have it or don't know how to use it. I see a lot of single target blade hurls that are kind of pointless unless you're trying to shut down someone's specific skill...but I keep seeing it used on BMs (which does not shut us down).

Mindset of Blade Hurl I feel is CC - It cuts off some classes from their skills, and at the very least reduces the damage output DDs have. If you're trying to save someone (Flag carrier, DDs, Catabarb), it's a valid skill to use to reduce the damage your opponents are doing. It also tends to confuse people, and does assist in killing kiters.

TBH I still feel diamond sutra, even demoned or sage isn't worth it, Id rather will and attempt to get the hell out. Seems chi is better used elsewhere.

Towards better utilizing it in NW - it's about patience. I'd say I use it on average once a 5+ minute battle (sometimes none, sometimes multiple times a battle), but it's worth saving for groups of 4+. Comboing it longer depends on the situation, but usually I'm looking for my Roar or Will button towards the end of it to move on or get out. It's a killing skill meant for large groups imho.

I have pulled and dug flags in it, however I find a more controlled atmosphere working with your squad to have whoever has the most available skills and apoth to be better for wins. It DOES work, but I've only found it truly necessary once. Again I'm of the opinion we should NOT be pulling flags and instead assisting the flag puller, as our classes CCs are better for assisting that than kinda...any other class.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I use blade hurl in three situations.

I smack an aa class, charm ticks, or not charmed, and almost dead. I use blade hurl to kill them.

I have a r9 OP person doing heavy damage on me, i use blade hurl to get close stun lock as best as i can.

I see a group of people, full chi, blade hurl, rush in, blade tornado b:cute.

On the very rare occasion i come across max stat people. That means, if their weapon is unequipped, they armour goes off as well b:dirty.

I am a lonely bm as you can tell . The bt, stun combo i use alone, can't co-ordinate with others while typing. Too much lag, too many instructions, timing issue, my squishy bm.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I use blade hurl in three situations.

I smack an aa class, charm ticks, or not charmed, and almost dead. I use blade hurl to kill them.

I have a r9 OP person doing heavy damage on me, i use blade hurl to get close stun lock as best as i can.

I see a group of people, full chi, blade hurl, rush in, blade tornado b:cute.

On the very rare occasion i come across max stat people. That means, if their weapon is unequipped, they armour goes off as well b:dirty.

Doesnt make them unequip armor...or lose stats from it. Just makes the weapon and weapon related skills unusable

Smack+Drake Day then Blade Hurl is what Ive been using. Great distance combo.

The hurl into BT isn't bad, but tbh if it was more of a stun rather than the player panicking it would be solid. Id rather save hurl for after so I can ensure I can gtfo if needed.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I use blade hurl in three situations.

I smack an aa class, charm ticks, or not charmed, and almost dead. I use blade hurl to kill them.

I have a r9 OP person doing heavy damage on me, i use blade hurl to get close stun lock as best as i can.

I see a group of people, full chi, blade hurl, rush in, blade tornado b:cute.

On the very rare occasion i come across max stat people. That means, if their weapon is unequipped, they armour goes off as well b:dirty.

I am a lonely bm as you can tell . The bt, stun combo i use alone, can't co-ordinate with others while typing. Too much lag, too many instructions, timing issue, my squishy bm.

I need to check to see if it disables purify procs on r9t3 weapons when it 'unequips' them. Its insane how hard a 20k hp/25k pdef r9t3 wizard, psy, or veno becomes to kill when you can't control them. I got used to seeing the stun->purify and thinking they'd used faith and now have an empty genie and attacking again with that in mind but now its their weapon purifying. If I can't stun/control them I may as well use my chi to HF them, right? The attack after my HF always seems to purify the HF off b:angry

What usually happens is I get in, stun, they get purified and kite me away and start range attacking. I kite their range attacks until I can get in and stun, rinse, wash repeat. This goes on until they either zerk crit me for 20k >.< or they get a friend in to help. If I get a friend in then thats just more people causing the purify proc.

So I may try setting up a charm bypass with Blade Hurl hoping it gives 6 seconds of no weapon, so 6 second purify proc free. Think I'll also set up a thread on techniques for killing these monstrosities.

Nalvaes - Raging Tide

Personally I prefer all path, which alot of ppl still hate me for b:surrender

It's a matter of preference though, like going demon or sage...Depends how YOU fight b:victory

If anyone gives you a hard time about being pure pole then tell them all the reasons it kicks ***

And Zanryu, ALL the paths have AOEs...and skills that target single opponents

I've used pole weapons to get of a few jams, plus the major reason it kicks *** is because while it's weaker then hf it lasts longer

And there are ALOT of really good stated pole weapons so...Do what you want

X_Belen_x - Dreamweaver

As for a more tankier build, how about pole/sword combo? My seeker build actually covers stat requirements for all swords and poles, and has nice vit for survivability in both pve and pvp. Lots of debuffs there for pve, and still plenty of aoes to choose from. And their lvl 59 skills, or "ultis" as some people prefer to call them, are quite beneficial to squads.

Myriad Sword Stace: reduces physical and magical attack by 50% for 15 seconds...always helpful to the tank, and rest of party if boss aoes...

Glacial Spike: Reduces physical and magical defence by 50% for 10 seconds, which allows for more potential damage output, 50 attacks of increased damage for 5 aps char...versus 30 of increased damage with hf (This is ofc excluding sage/demon versions of any skills).

And besides, who doesn't love being a dragoon? (In a sense). If you don't know what a dragoon is...you need more FF.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Nalvaes - Raging Tide wrote: »

Personally I prefer all path, which alot of ppl still hate me for b:surrender

It's a matter of preference though, like going demon or sage...Depends how YOU fight b:victory

If anyone gives you a hard time about being pure pole then tell them all the reasons it kicks ***

And Zanryu, ALL the paths have AOEs...and skills that target single opponents

I've used pole weapons to get of a few jams, plus the major reason it kicks *** is because while it's weaker then hf it lasts longer

And there are ALOT of really good stated pole weapons so...Do what you want

Those AoEs tend to be situational at best, they're far weaker than your axe AoEs and tend to be in a line instead of circular. Axes have the best spike damage of all your weapons which is why they're the ones we use to skill spam, because even though we do have AoEs with other weapons and a few we can use with all weapons axes are the overall best skill spam weapon a BM has. If people want to gimp themselves they're more than free to do so though.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

X_Belen_x - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for a more tankier build, how about pole/sword combo?

I'll stop you right there. Make two bm, make one vit build, vit shards, +10. Make another 3 str 2 dex, josd +10. Both build will differ by 3k~5k hp mostly on r9 3rd cast armour. Works for g16 to, the question becomes is 3k~5k hp really worth the loss in dd? By that time, most bm have a pool of 15~24k hp anyways. If someone is going to one shot you, you will get one shot, the extra hp won't help. Extra hp helps at lower levels of hp pool to avoid being one shot in pvp pve. After a certain threshold, it doesn't matter.

The rest i agree with only in specific situation basis. Sure pole, sword works. But you will be out of chi very quickly. Lack of regular circular aoe means, if you get agro and can't take it in delta, lunar, warsong, that is the end. I do hf+gs combo on pulls, that means mss+gs, that leaves you at 1 spark, if you use piercing winds = 0 chi. Can not roar for the next few attack, can not smack, and no amount of hitting mobs at 1~2 aps will get back 2 sparks with aoe in 25 seconds. If you don't aoe, it can work out, but had you switched to axes at this point, you could see how they would benefit more.

titotit

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll stop you right there. Make two bm, make one vit build, vit shards, +10. Make another 3 str 2 dex, josd +10. Both build will differ by 3k~5k hp mostly on r9 3rd cast armour. Works for g16 to, the question becomes is 3k~5k hp really worth the loss in dd? By that time, most bm have a pool of 15~24k hp anyways. If someone is going to one shot you, you will get one shot, the extra hp won't help. Extra hp helps at lower levels of hp pool to avoid being one shot in pvp pve. After a certain threshold, it doesn't matter.

The rest i agree with only in specific situation basis. Sure pole, sword works. But you will be out of chi very quickly. Lack of regular circular aoe means, if you get agro and can't take it in delta, lunar, warsong, that is the end. I do hf+gs combo on pulls, that means mss+gs, that leaves you at 1 spark, if you use piercing winds = 0 chi. Can not roar for the next few attack, can not smack, and no amount of hitting mobs at 1~2 aps will get back 2 sparks with aoe in 25 seconds. If you don't aoe, it can work out, but had you switched to axes at this point, you could see how they would benefit more.

This ^

Morridune - Raging Tide

there a lot of good points and a lot of irrelevant points throughout this thread but im going to leave off em at mo as its rly just covering ground that's bn tread for last few yrs rather than bashing each other for what are ultimately personal choices (good or bad) I think it be more constructive to try finding out/discussing what pro's pole/swords offer and maybe see to seek change to how our skills are set up, currently i find the biggest issue for BM's at EG is our lack of options vs kites archers with their jumpy about and stun immunity wizzies blink all over and dam near every AA having purify on their weapon making it harder and harder to keep ppl in place and thats before we go into genie skills. For the most part the BM way was to run up debuff (stun,hf,ep etc) and then whale on ppl till thy fell our skills or dps sure wouldn't be as hard hitting as say some of the options available to other melee classes (eg dps sins or the barbs arma seekers Gemini Slash) but we were able to get off enough hits to get the job done now tho this is becoming rare as ppl are purified or jumping 20m+ away before a combo's complete and we're hoping more and more for that "zerkcrit" to land rather than actual skill use and lets face it we wont get the greatest crit rate w/o sacrificing dph.

So i put this to both the new and old BM's were do you reckon we can use these mostly forgotten weapons to help finnish the job, when is it good to switch em in and what sort of adds do we want on em (eg +range, +damage on T3's or go for T2/r8r with different proc effects) and yes yes we're a "support" class killing aint our focus bt sry NW is becoming more and more the way for ppl to farm and well stuns and party buff's dont win prizes

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Demon Meteor Rush is pretty dang sweet in NW. Was helping our flagger the last bit to go, and realized I wasn't Roaring because I didn't have enough chi. Swapped to pole and caught 3 of the 5 in stuns. Built a bit of chi with fists, moved and stunned the other 2. Then back to pole for a final Meteor Rush stun that got 2 of 4 and flagger capped. Then I ran like hell because it was a bunch of R9ers I was pissing off.

For high survivability guys, could make use of the linear AoEs with leaps. Just leap away, target the closest guy coming to you, and use Meteor. You'll hit everyone behind him following behind (mostly melees and hidden sins). You can even use leaps to get a caster target between you and your pursuers for much the same thing.

Purge pole is fun to whip out, because barbs or others who otherwise might not fear you will suddenly get the heck out of there to avoid losing all their buffs. Do that if I am attacking someone who I can't deal much damage with using my claws; figure might as well make it easier for the next guy, or maybe with the purge be able to use claws for some decent damage.

Sword is a bit harder. MSS is still pretty decent for its role, but most of the others are hard to make work. If we were still capped with TT as end game, it would be doable. But there really isn't a good enough call for swords for BMs to warrant the extra cost in trying to get one built up for actual damage purposes. And so even with Magebane possibly having a use, the lack of a dedicated weapon for it pretty much kills it.

Though really, I can't help but feel both sword and pole are suffering from PWE's attempts to prevent APS switching to them with the new gear content. They used to have -.05 interval adds for swords, and -.1 for spears in the past. Now they either don't have them, or have such a low chance it isn't worth trying for. Which is weird, considering even with the higher refine rate BMs still wouldn't top assassins DPS anyways.

Malidega - Archosaur

There seems to be something missing from all of your arguments. First, yes.. all of the paths have AOE skills, second, sword/pole even have knock back skills but one MAJOR PROBLEM with these paths....

ALL THE GOOD SKILLS REQUIRE CHI OR WORSE, SPARKS TO CAST!!!

And how do you get chi....not very quickly with sword, pole, axe......hmmm...I have these fist/claw things..

Seems to be a great reason to go all path. Without sparks.. your best skills are useless to you. So, being a single minded Pole user or which ever other path you decide you only want to use.. you are a FAIL BM if not all path. Taking a few extra hits doesn't do much for you if you haven't learned how to play your class.

Power leveling FTL.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

People still do this?

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

People still do this?

Unique people will be unique.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

I have to go pee.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have to go pee.

qft?

+1...10key

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

qft?

+1...10key

So thats how you got more posts than me >.>

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

qft?

+1...10key

I peed. Felt pretty good.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

This topic will get locked soon b:surrender. Let's talk in bm language, and refer to things in terms of poles, swords, fists, axes, to keep up appearance that the topic on track b:pleased.

On second thought, don't, the topic will become very pervy.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

The only way being a pole BM works, is if you wear really short skirts and have a name like Candi, Misti, or other misspelled cutesy name.

opkossy

OPKossy wrote: »

But Sylvae's post is too awesome for me to lock the thread as long as it doesn't get necro'd or turn into some sort of super spam **** or something equally stupid.

*glares at this page* b:angry

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only way being a pole BM works, is if you wear really short skirts and have a name like Candi, Misti, or other misspelled cutesy name.

...wait dont you do that?

soundslegit

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only way being a pole BM works, is if you wear really short skirts and have a name like Candi, Misti, or other misspelled cutesy name.

I always think those are venos and phys attack them.