Personal Credits Halved in Nation Wars?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Verolina - Harshlands wrote: »

**** like this is why NW is completely unbalanced. All the extreme CSers can end up in a few squads and control which nation wins the fight. NW should be COMPLETELY random. So far, its been a great event, and a fix like that would possibly make it the best update many of us have seen in awhile.

This isn't true. I was in a fairly OP squad which won all 9 of the battles we fought and even tried to block in another nation. My nation still came in dead last and non-R9 people in other nations even got more tokens than me.

Actually I think I was splitting my points a lot more with the other OP in my squad so I wasn't getting any more points per minute than if I was on my own. The only actual benefit I had was that by winning territories I can avoid being sent back to the HQ which is likely being camped by other nations.

Azura - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I can only recommend recording your results and reviewing your performance to identify factors that lead to a low score. People don't really have a good grasp of scoring yet and it's hard to tell whats going on. My data was unfortunately not very useful

Asterelle, I would like to help you to collect data. What information do you need to collect?

Geckofreak - Sanctuary

Uh, does being in a squad steal points from you? this was first NW that i really did in a large squad and stayed in the squad

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Asterelle, I would like to help you to collect data. What information do you need to collect?

All info is good. I doubt I can get an actual formula but it would be nice to identify solid strategies for maximizing score.

Here is the info I collected last round: http://tinyurl.com/nwstats

Attacking / Defending
Result
Team Score
Personal Rank
Personal Score
Land
Duration
Personal Captures
Deaths
Average Attacker Count
Average Defender Count

Geshwur - Raging Tide

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

The thing is though, i know i did great, my scores every battle were high, ranking high, personal credits, pathetically low.
I can accept that other people did better today, but i definately didnt do worse, so why did it reward me as if i had done horribly, thats the question

I run on my archer and also noticed that this week. I think it has something to do more with whether you win or lose battles, whether you're near or far from the flag, may have to do with how much damage you take and deal. IDK. (Sunday may have been an anomaly for me, Friday I was in a nation that got locked down off the bat.) IDK what the deal is.

OutReach_ - Archosaur

well if you think about more members in NW = less tokens per person. 269 ppl with around 25k tokens total = average of 94ish per person, then ppl with higher personal scores will get more and lower scores get less. Really don't need to do any math on it, it's pretty much common sense. Ik on arch, first few times maybe 120ish ppl in each nation and nations came out with around 25k tokens so average being around 208 tokens a person. Ofc personal scores change that up higher gets more lower gets less, too low and you get none because not enough tokens to go around. I know the 2nd NW on the sunday some ppl come out with 500 tokens (supposedly didn't see pics so can't be sure), I got 362 during that one, because there weren't as many ppl again. Now most servers, 250+ ppl per nation so less tokens to go around, you have to do way better personally to get more tokens + your nation needs to do well to get more again.

It's all basic common sense.b:shocked

Geckofreak - Sanctuary

OutReach_ - Archosaur wrote: »

well if you think about more members in NW = less tokens per person. 269 ppl with around 25k tokens total = average of 94ish per person, then ppl with higher personal scores will get more and lower scores get less. Really don't need to do any math on it, it's pretty much common sense. Ik on arch, first few times maybe 120ish ppl in each nation and nations came out with around 25k tokens so average being around 208 tokens a person. Ofc personal scores change that up higher gets more lower gets less, too low and you get none because not enough tokens to go around. I know the 2nd NW on the sunday some ppl come out with 500 tokens (supposedly didn't see pics so can't be sure), I got 362 during that one, because there weren't as many ppl again. Now most servers, 250+ ppl per nation so less tokens to go around, you have to do way better personally to get more tokens + your nation needs to do well to get more again.

It's all basic common sense.b:shocked

Yea, exactely, there were less members, not more, so i shouldve gotten more tokens, not less, and ammount of members wouldnt reduce my personal credit either. ive said that 5 times or so throughout this threadb:surrender

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yea, exactely, there were less members, not more, so i shouldve gotten more tokens, not less, and ammount of members wouldnt reduce my personal credit either. ive said that 5 times or so throughout this threadb:surrender

Did you notice the total amount of tokens of your server last weekend and the other before? I know on HL was higher before and now we got less. :S

Geckofreak - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Did you notice the total amount of tokens of your server last weekend and the other before? I know on HL was higher before and now we got less. :S

I know it was lower, was like 68 instead of 75.

Still fails to explain the personal credits, which is the issue i am concerned about.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

I'm not a maths person persay, I do 'rough' math, like the poster right above me.

There are three issues here:

1) how to get contribution
2) how much contribution is rewarded
3) how many tokens you get based on your contribution

---

#1.

People have already figured out most of this, I'm just summarizing what I know.

-deal damage
-kill people
-tank damage
-die
-heal
-pick up flag
-successfully deliver flag
-time spent in instance
-whether you stay in instance till end of battle
-soulforce of enemies (?)

#2.

Clearly your contribution is a sum of the above factors in #1; we can say this even if we don't know the exact amount each factor contributes to the total contribution you get each battle.

My best guess is that after all the factors are added up, you get some score = X

Then, everybody else who participated in the instance gets their own score, call them, dunno, Xb, Xc, etc.

Add all the X from all the people together to get a value Y.

If value Y is above 24750, scale down the value Y, and all of the corresponding X values to get a list of Z values.

Example: if the Y was 30000, and your initial X was 2000, once scaled down, it'd be 24750/30000 = Z/2000, solve for Z, in this case 1650.

Then, if your Z value is above 3000, cap it at 3000, this is another theory of mine that explains the 3000 value we see popping up.

THE BIG QUESTION IS, WHEN DOES CLASS GET TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT? IS IT HERE, at the level of the INDIVIDUAL BATTLE, or is it at #3, the AWARDING AT THE END? MY GUESS IS AT #3.

#3.

-your contribution from each battle is summed for a total contribution value, A
-there is some total # of tokens in the 'pot', call this value P

My theory is that, before anything else happens, this pot is split into 4 based on the contributions of the 4 nations. Class hasn't been taken into account yet. Nation pot = N, and so Na + Nb + Nc + Nd = P

So your nation has pot Na, lets say. My next theory is that this pot gets split into classes, in a similar manner to tiger event. Exactly how this occurs I am not sure; its probably more complicated than simply dicing it up into 10 equal parts.

So 10 classes, C1 through C10, summed up, = Na

Somehow though, my theory is, the classes who are over-represented get fewer tokens. Having an even 10 way split of the pot could account for this, but so could other theories.

---

This is just a bunch of guesses based on my loose understanding of the issues so far, but I find my guesses tend to be pretty shrewd. What do you guys think?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So your nation has pot Na, lets say. My next theory is that this pot gets split into classes, in a similar manner to tiger event. Exactly how this occurs I am not sure; its probably more complicated than simply dicing it up into 10 equal parts.

So 10 classes, C1 through C10, summed up, = Na

Somehow though, my theory is, the classes who are over-represented get fewer tokens. Having an even 10 way split of the pot could account for this, but so could other theories.

---

This is just a bunch of guesses based on my loose understanding of the issues so far, but I find my guesses tend to be pretty shrewd. What do you guys think?

There isn't any class based token distribution as far as I can tell. After scores are finalized everyone within the same nation gets tokens proportional to their personal score (as long as it is above some minimum threshold). There is certainly no class component at the battle level since squad makeup doesn't make a huge difference.

Nations are allocated tokens out of the master pot based on their adjusted score which is just the nation score minus a certain percentage of the minimum nation score.

Nation score is just the number of lands a nation has times the time they hold that land (each of the 80 lands gives a nation 1 point about every 15 minutes).

I'm not sure if capturing flags actually gives you points since when I concentrate on flag capture I actually get less score than other archers in my squad. I think flag barbs only score high since they soak up lots of damage (I just run fast and capture in 30 seconds).

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

No class distribution?

... ok maybe so.

As far as picking a flag it must be worth something; consider that you get +1 point for the battle just for picking it up, even if it doesn't make it to the end.

Interesting problem for you; as you say a barb does a slower, more dmg-soaking style of flag carrying, then safely delivers. You do a really fast, almost-not-hit-at-all style, and you don't get many points you say. *As many* at least.

Nonetheless you still help the battle win by doing so. Thus, to benefit your own score you must benefit the score of the nation by winning the battle. But where is the balance? Hm guess thats the whole point of the math you are doing.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

There isn't any class based token distribution as far as I can tell. After scores are finalized everyone within the same nation gets tokens proportional to their personal score (as long as it is above some minimum threshold). There is certainly no class component at the battle level since squad makeup doesn't make a huge difference.

Nations are allocated tokens out of the master pot based on their adjusted score which is just the nation score minus a certain percentage of the minimum nation score.

Nation score is just the number of lands a nation has times the time they hold that land (each of the 80 lands gives a nation 1 point about every 15 minutes).

I'm not sure if capturing flags actually gives you points since when I concentrate on flag capture I actually get less score than other archers in my squad. I think flag barbs only score high since they soak up lots of damage (I just run fast and capture in 30 seconds).

I'm also under the impression that there is no class-based distribution, the rumor was most likely started by a person with limited/biased/wrong information. (i will stay open-minded on this though... if someone can provide solid evidence)

Concerning region score (also referred to as nation score, land credits), every land generates 1 credit every 10mins. Each nation starts with 19 lands (total 76) + the capital city (worth nothing). First allocation is at 20:30, last allocation is 22:10 (total 11 times). At 22:20, all 4 nation gets 11 credits

(I still don't under the developers needed to put the number 11 into the equations, but it seems to fit the other formula for the distribution tokens to nation as well)

Yush, nation rankings are already sealed at 22:10.

Total land credits = (11 ticks)*(76 lands) + (4 nation)*(11) = 880

I approximated the update time to be a within 60 seconds between server time 2x:x0:00 to 2x:x1:00

Carrying the flag is like carrying a massive magnet, enemies just magically pops out from nowhere, its the most efficient way to get up rankings for barbs.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Think it may have been me started it - certainly I contributed to it. And it was after the first war - so seriously limited information.

But there's a stat there giving "Ranking" - and there is no way on EARTH I ranked 26th (and even 9th in one war) in my nation.

Hence my guess that it's among the veno's in my nation.

That and the system already existing for the tiger event etc. and PWI-China's constant re-use of assets.

Bloom - Heavens Tear

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

In the end...i end up with 6.8k credits total, and 126 tokens.

Then what are you griping about, that's a good pile of tokens. I figure its a pretty good night if we get 70+, getting over 110+ is exceptional. I'm always hearing of people who got either 0, or around 20 or less.

Stop being a bunch of greedy buggers and be happy that you got any at all :P

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Bloom - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Then what are you griping about, that's a good pile of tokens. I figure its a pretty good night if we get 70+, getting over 110+ is exceptional. I'm always hearing of people who got either 0, or around 20 or less.

Stop being a bunch of greedy buggers and be happy that you got any at all :P

wtf is up with heavens tear >.>

Banndit - Heavens Tear

There still may be a good possibility that class based distribution (cbd) is part of the calculation. I'm not saying its likely or not as I don't have the data or even know if i can put it to good use, but there are good reason as to why it maybe used as part of the calculation.

Firstly, cbd may not be easily identifiable as damage inflicted/received in the short term. For example, if there are 8 players, 2 in each nation, and there are 2 class, namely archer and sin, 1 archer/sin in each nation, evenly distributed. If each player did everything the same and made 1 kill each except for 1 archer who missed, and the sin in the winning nation was the one who didn't die. you could say that the sin perform the best although it was luck. In such an outcome, you could easily calculate to give more credit or reward more token to the sin then the archer in the same winning nation despite the personal credit being somewhat close.

Instead of taking the sum of a class and reduce their reward because that class is higher in number than other class, they can judge them on their performance compared them to others in their class and rank them, then compare them to other players/class. Such method is or was in use in the nien beast event if i'm not mistaken therefore further support the likelihood of pw using cbd. In other words, such method is easy to measure, calculated, is fairer then non cbd and similar methods is already in use and readily available therefore suggest the good possibility of cbd being used, unless the datas clearly says otherwise.

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1) how to get contribution

#1.

People have already figured out most of this, I'm just summarizing what I know.

-deal damage
-kill people
-tank damage
-die
-heal
-pick up flag
-successfully deliver flag
-time spent in instance
-whether you stay in instance till end of battle
-soulforce of enemies (?)

~You will get credit for the battle even if you are booted. Been proven many times

~Counts against you. Not for you. Been proven. This is why R9's get more frequently..live longer, take more damage, and die less.

~Only if you heal "damaged hp" my guess. Cannot heal full HP, won't add anything.

If class distribution has to do anything with it, it must be due to melee's have a harder time vs ranged players.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Think it may have been me started it - certainly I contributed to it. And it was after the first war - so seriously limited information.

But there's a stat there giving "Ranking" - and there is no way on EARTH I ranked 26th (and even 9th in one war) in my nation.

Hence my guess that it's among the veno's in my nation.

That and the system already existing for the tiger event etc. and PWI-China's constant re-use of assets.

Why is there no way for you to rank 26th. You just happen to suck more then 25 of the people... including those who have joined and left for whatever reason. I have seem TT99 venos score first over a r9 veno and my r9 archer in the same instance. It seems that the tt99's veno's nix got the only kill.

Bloom - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Then what are you griping about, that's a good pile of tokens. I figure its a pretty good night if we get 70+, getting over 110+ is exceptional. I'm always hearing of people who got either 0, or around 20 or less.

Stop being a bunch of greedy buggers and be happy that you got any at all :P

Please don't spread rumors about ht... or else we'll end up like sanc. It will be a horrible night if i get 70+... don't think I gotten less then 110+ before.

Longknife - Harshlands

Maybe your score was halved because you spent too much time on the forums talking about how great you are and not enough time shooting people.

MinoSlayer - Dreamweaver

Reposted from:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1524601&page=3

(3) The national battle award
1) reward calculation rules
At the end of the battle, rewards will be calculated and given to players based on the accumulated points of each country and the individual player himself.

Single battlefield total points: The total calculated battlefield points after every battle will be related to the attributes of the player and his power levels.

【The map layout of the battlefield】，【The continued time of the battle】，【Every player on the enemy side's soulforce and the amount of time he will remain in battle】，and 【The damage output of enemy players】combined are important factors for the total battlefield points.

Using the carving up method, the accumulated points for each player participating in the battle, are all taken from the total score.

Individual cumulated points: the system calculates a number based on the individual player's【damage output】【damage taken】and【number of killed enemies】in this battlefield and rank that number accordingly and attain the rank of each player that has participated in the battle. The higher the number, the higher his rank.

Each player's rank correspond to a different coefficient. The player's cumulated points in a single game = (personal ranking coefficient/(the coefficient of all the players in the rank and) * total individual battlefield points + value added * 15)

---

This is a translation of some Chinese paragraphs of unknown origin, presented as a description of the scoring algorithm.

If you pick apart a Google translation of this, it shows "damage healed" where this human translation says "damage taken".

That last paragraph is quite obscure. It seems to suggest that we should not look at the total contrib, but at some aggregation of personal _rankings_.

If anyone can zero in on phrases or words that seem to have multiple signifiant meanings, I can ask for clarification on the translation.

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver

MinoSlayer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Reposted from:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1524601&page=3

【The map layout of the battlefield】，【The continued time of the battle】，【Every player on the enemy side's soulforce and the amount of time he will remain in battle】，and 【The damage output of enemy players】combined are important factors for the total battlefield points.

Individual cumulated points: the system calculates a number based on the individual player's【damage output】【damage taken】and【number of killed enemies】in this battlefield and rank that number accordingly and attain the rank of each player that has participated in the battle. The higher the number, the higher his rank.

So pretty much to say, if your in a single battle for too long, and the weaker keep getting booted after 6 deaths, and more people join, then no matter what your personal kills or anything else is....the total score will be divided by ALL the players that participated regardless.

So taking a single battle with 20 vs 20, but 10 people on each side get booted, and more people come, then the score will be divided up by 1/2 more, and if 10 more people are booted because the battle took too long, then the rewards are divided up between double the amount of original people.

TOTAL BATTLEPOINT FACTORS:

* Time of the actual battle the map took to win/lose
* Map Layout of battle?
* Time lasted in battle
* Enemy's Soulforce
* Enemy's Damage

INDIVIDUAL RANK FACTORS:

* Your damage output
* Damage taken
* Number of killed enemies(I think personal kills)

~This is per player who enters the battlefield, no wonder were getting so low.

【Every player on the enemy side's soulforce and the amount of time he will remain in battle】

Theory: If the player gets booted, then he's soulforce will vanish from the map allowing a higher score to be raised by others until someone else joins in the battle.

MinoSlayer - Dreamweaver

The "map layout" is probably the value of that particular battlefield. If you look at NW territories, they have a value attribute. Currently, all territories have the same value of 1.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

someone said being killed counts against you ;o how so?

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

someone said being killed counts against you ;o how so?

I said that as have many others. Don't you think it's weird we have a

"Personal Death: "

on the map list? I suspect this is in such a case that if you end the battle with "Personal Deaths: 5" VS someone who maybe got a "Personal Deaths: 1", they would get more and you would get less. At least that is what people have reported.

ovenusarmanio

I doubt personal deaths count against you. I die constantly on my lowbie and manage to do pretty well. I think it's just a counter to determine whether or not you are booted out.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I doubt personal deaths count against you. I die constantly on my lowbie and manage to do pretty well. I think it's just a counter to determine whether or not you are booted out.

I have to agree... it's more than likely simply to keep track of how many "deaths" you have left before getting booted. Plus, having personal deaths count against you needlessly penalizes the lower lvl under geared players... the same ones who are being encouraged to join this new PVP instance but who will naturally die way more often than the R9s/G16s/etc..