Affect of Factions on Players' Abilities

ponyduck

I won't quote your whole post, Oishii, but you pretty much
told my exact story. The first faction I joined had a leader
lvl 60 (yeh, we had one of the HIGH level players at the
time! lol), and I remember him taking us around to various
dungeons & doing training runs. No hurry, just a nice
patient walk-thru as he explained every step of the way how
to handle all the elements in that particular dungeon.

Several of us eventually devolved into a small group about the
time bh's came along, all of us about the same level, online
at the same time, and we'd do the bh together (there was only
one at first), then start doing any normal or special quests
the others needed. That was the golden era for me playing
PWI. Truly incredible amounts of fun we had.

Then things progressed exactly as you said, game changed,
original friends dropped away--I was left as leader of faction
myself for awhile! lol.

But one line in your post says it all:

I think players used to want to learn to play the game right,
but that mentality is just gone now.

Just as the game has changed, so have factions changed.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

Oishii - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think the game has changed and so it has changed the playerbase, not so much of factions causing it. Yes, it doesnt help to baby a player, but sometimes its good to help someone.

I started the game with a veno in early 2009, and joined a faction when i was like lvl 13-15 or so becuase a barb wanted to do normal quests together since we were around the same level. I find nothing wrong with having a quest buddy at or around the same level. This faction was tremendously helpful. No one was above lvl 80 yet because the game was still kind of new, and many of the players in faction were around the 20-45 range.

It was helpful to me when i would do fb runs and stuff with atleast one higher level player, just so that i could learn what i was supposed to do. The "dont pull this mob but that one" or when it was better to pull a boss to another spot to kill it. Going in with a squad of completely my level newbies would of been a pain. Yes, i know the first players had to do that, but when someone has already figured it out, its better to just pass on the knowledge.

By the time BH was implemented, i was around lvl 75. By then, i had grown with the same faction mates through all of my fbs and bosses and we were all around the same level. There was me, the same barb from earlier, 2BMs, a cleric, and a wizzie. We would run bh together every single day, to the point that we could predict each others movements to perfection.

Then the game really changed. Hyper leveling and just being fed up with the game caused most of the squad i had come to be with leave. The only ones still playing this game out of that original squad are me and one of the BMs. Every now and again the barb jumps on to say hi, but doesnt play.

I was left the faction leader of the now empty faction i had joined in the beginning. I tried starting it back up again, brought in new players, taught who would want to listen and learn. They began hyper lvling and surpassed me in level, and joined larger factions. Some of them i just laugh when they world chat, because i knew them when they had first started and had been so clueless, and i know they are still probably clueless. Some people, even if you offer to teach and help them, just have that mentality to not listen but just want to hurry and get something done.

I think players used to want to learn to play the game right, but that mentality is just gone now. Its not the same as when i started, and that makes finding the squad i used to have difficult. I was so used to running with them, that when i tried running with a random squad it was hard. Randoms squads didnt know how to work together or who did what at specific times. Now you are lucky to find a squad your level at all.

I joined a larger faction, thinking it would mean i would get help again from people my level for BHs and tt runs. Tey would even advertise it in WC that they did these things. But i get there, and the only thing people ran were either FC, or nirvy for the 100s. I tried making bh squads or tt squads, but no luck. I hate randoms for tt, because its hard to find people you can trust with drops and who really know what they are doing. I've found one other person now that plays the same as me, and they are my questing buddy now. I just wish i could get that one perfect squad again.

Sorry for the story/rant thing.

The story that you have given here says it all. When i started playing the game i mostly jumped faction to faction in the earlier years due to factions just fading away and becoming deserted. the only two factions that i joined and stayed in for the long haul was US (united we stand) and AHO (a heroes oath). we did things together alot of times, from doing quests to doing bosses and bh runs. so when i had joined aho, we helped each other out even at times when this one barb who knew what he was doing guided us by showing us on during bh runs on how the proper way of going through each set of mobs correctly. As in the barb would go in use roar to get agro on the mobs before the DDs started attacking and that the cleric would stack IH on the barb before he would go in. It goes without saying that all factions will have their share of internal problems that cause ppl to leave that certain faction. So far all the ppl that i have met over the years since the beginning have either quit or went onto another server and still are playing. theres only bout 2-3 ppl from the old days that still play that i have seen on HT, otherwise a lot of the old players like i said earlier have either quit or still play but are high lvl now and have found new friends to associate with. It's just plain sickening how ppl that you were friends with, squaded with, and did things with hardly talk to you much anymore now that they are big shot players in high lvl factions. I've had friends where they were lower lvl than i was and suddenly within a month or less they are either in their mid 80s into their 90s. it's like you can't find good friends to stick around the same lvl range to have fun, share times together and what not. Plus sometimes when i get a friend invite from someone in a random bh squad where they like something bout me, its like a week from now they aren't talking much to you since that one single run that you did with them. There's one good friend i did meet in a faction later that has talked to me on occasion, but i haven't seen em much on lately. not to mention some of the very good friends that you lvled with and ended up being with most of the time, are practically high lvl jerks now from all the noobs that they have been around. If i hadn't met the very good friend that i have been with since latter years i too would of been one of the ones who probably would of quit this game by now. I'm just glad that i'm still here doing the best i can to change ppls ideas and thoughts on certain things even though i might not change em entirely.

Eeyes - Harshlands

What ruins a player is not getting help on something you need help on, it's just being stupid or asking help on EVERYTHING. Other then that, asking for help actaually improves your skill, by seeing how the classes can work togeather to become a powerful force.

Darkette - Sanctuary

Eeyes - Harshlands wrote: »

What ruins a player is not getting help on something you need help on, it's just being stupid or asking help on EVERYTHING. Other then that, asking for help actaually improves your skill, by seeing how the classes can work togeather to become a powerful force.

Au contrare!

When a level-7x asks for help with BH59 and a couple of level-100+ faction mates show up, no one learns anything. The 100s romp through the instance and the 7x struggles just to keep up.

Likewise, when someone asks help with Krixxix or [pick any mini boss] and a level-80+ Sin shows up to help the result is the same.

Ah, well, maybe in uber rare cases these days a few same-level faction members might come to help, but that hardly happens now.

What the lowbie usually gets out of the experience is that s/he is a pipsqueak by comparison; whereup they'll be tempted to power level, which is just as detrimental.

I don't think anyone is advocating that faction members should withhold NEEDED assistance. But whenever a player has the capacity to tackle a situation, they should be encouraged to first try it on their own.

I'm an independent type, like a challenge, and absolutely hate asking for help. That's how I learned my clerics could solo (at level) BHs 29, 39, 59, 79, and parts of 89; not to mention all but the physical mini bosses. I'm certainly NOT contending I'm a great player, but when people are not encouraged to explore their capabilities and limitations thoroughly, they will never reach their full potential.

Szol - Harshlands

pw my took all the cultivation to FC --- thats the right direction.

cause lets face it : try to get a fb/bh squad your lvl done is kinda impossible unless you

a) got a mainchar that can earn some coins to fund countless telecoustics
b) got 3 days for each quest you want to do


if a or b doesnt apply to you , do not play in low lvls b:chuckleb:chuckle

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Darkette - Sanctuary wrote: »

Au contrare!

When a level-7x asks for help with BH59 and a couple of level-100+ faction mates show up, no one learns anything. The 100s romp through the instance and the 7x struggles just to keep up.

Sometime the level 100 give bad advice, I started a new cleric ona server, but have 2 100+ clerics on a other server so I know how to play it, well in a BH59 the cleric 101 in the squad asked me to BB....

When a cleric 101 ask a other to BB in BH59, no wonder why some cleric are just BBing everywhere and have no skills.

Darkette - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Sometime the level 100 give bad advice, I started a new cleric ona server, but have 2 100+ clerics on a other server so I know how to play it, well in a BH59 the cleric 101 in the squad asked me to BB....

When a cleric 101 ask a other to BB in BH59, no wonder why some cleric are just BBing everywhere and have no skills.

That's kinda funny. I have dual cliented several 7x clerics in bh59. For efficiency's sake, I evariably have my cleric tank all the bosses.

On occasion, I've also dual cliented my 100 cleric in bh59. Normally, she has only to heal herself once or twice before the boss is dead. So, having a 101 cleric ask you to BB seems just wee bit extreme. b:laugh

Oliiander - Lost City

They want help? Sure, anytime.
I'll throw them an odd ironheart or two when they're gonna dieb:thanks
Alternatively, I'll talk them through how to do it and only buff them, if they can heal themselves.

If all else fails, I'll go kill it.

Jacerai - Dreamweaver

I remember having some very nice people help me out. When I joined the game, people were beginning to power level. I had no inkling of it until my 60s, by which I was aggravated by people not getting aggro in 51~59.

Though it was fun when I believed that my 7x BM friend was so high level (I thought I would never hit 50 at the time; I was 40ish). He took me into BH29 to help me since people (at the time) were still camping SP to help people instead of kill them. I died a few times from healer's aggro (I didn't know how it worked at the time, only having run with a sin and archer up to that level, both of whom were friends that didn't pull too much).

There were good times, but I was never in a faction with other folks my level besides the people I went to college with (we started our own faction and thought we were super cool). Before that, I was sitting awkwardly in a higher-level faction (which I still see running around DW). They were a family faction that helped out my sin friend a lot (he had jumped to a veno by that time, since he liked the female toons better).

I just felt so off in that faction that I left. But there was a kindly level 8x cleric that helped me learn my skills, when to use them, etc. All of which I learned in the 19 dungeons or BH29.

It was fun, just running 19s with friends my level, dieing like I always did, coming back to res everyone, dieing again because of a friend's miss-judgement.
By the time we were done, we worked very well together (and were a veno/HA archer/cleric trio).

*TANGENTS are not just lines that touch the curve once*

Edit: Now a days I'll jump to a toon around their level and help out. Unless if it's for something really hard. Then I'll grab my barb or something and try to teach them how to tackle the boss/quest boss and what to look out for. Like boss channeling skills, how to exit BB/RB/DB by using the diamond, and what skills to watch out for in a squad (barb's Roar, Invoke does not grab aggro, sin knife-throw, Wings of Protection, etc).

Super edit!
Looks like my icon finally glitched. Says 101 on the top one, 100 here.

Yeaves - Archosaur

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Many sins don't notice when bp run out, as cleric often I tell them that bp is out and they say ''Oh thx didn't noticed it''.

Or a sin saying ''Heal you stupid cleric I'm dying'' while I'm healing him and me ''Bp yourself before scream at me moron'' than he answer ''Oh didn't know I didn't had bp'' ... /facepalm. How sins can forget something like that. xD

Some people are good, some are not, some play since years one class and still suck. That depend how much time the person spend learning his class, read skills, try them, listen the advices of experimented players and ask question when they don't understand something.

l was in a BH warsong with a barb and 4 sins. The barb died by accident right before the boss and he teleported back with only his buffs and grabbed arggo.

His hp kept dropping and he was close to dying until l said in squad chat:
'bp buff
one of you sins'

4 sins-none of them remembered to bp b:laugh

f31

Yeaves - Archosaur wrote: »

l was in a BH warsong with a barb and 4 sins. The barb died by accident right before the boss and he teleported back with only his buffs and grabbed arggo.

His hp kept dropping and he was close to dying until l said in squad chat:
'bp buff
one of you sins'

4 sins-none of them remembered to bp b:laugh

he dies before reaming on boss lol what kinda sqeeshy barb is heb:surrender

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary

I've always only helped with culti bosses, the ones they normally can't solo are get a "level entry" squad for. BHs have been a no no on my list since..forever. Afterall, despite so much BH hate, BHs are the best source of learning how to play your class. If you don't know by 80, chances are you will never know. Thus.. FCC spammers are only hurting themselves.

The scenario with overly faction help still suffers from unappreciative people.

Hannsel - Dreamweaver

Darkette - Sanctuary wrote: »

Au contrare!

When a level-7x asks for help with BH59 and a couple of level-100+ faction mates show up, no one learns anything. The 100s romp through the instance and the 7x struggles just to keep up.

Likewise, when someone asks help with Krixxix or [pick any mini boss] and a level-80+ Sin shows up to help the result is the same.
its quicker that way since there are no tank+healer around to help. honestly i'm not going to WC squad for krixx while there are so many people willing to help nearby and rejecting because he's too high leveled isn't a realistic option for low levels.

Ah, well, maybe in uber rare cases these days a few same-level faction members might come to help, but that hardly happens now.
my faction has a decent number of 'same-level' members but most are offline when i'm online or vice versa. not going to hold off my bh for something so trivial.

What the lowbie usually gets out of the experience is that s/he is a pipsqueak by comparison; whereup they'll be tempted to power level, which is just as detrimental.

I don't think anyone is advocating that faction members should withhold NEEDED assistance. But whenever a player has the capacity to tackle a situation, they should be encouraged to first try it on their own.

I'm an independent type, like a challenge, and absolutely hate asking for help. That's how I learned my clerics could solo (at level) BHs 29, 39, 59, 79, and parts of 89; not to mention all but the physical mini bosses. I'm certainly NOT contending I'm a great player, but when people are not encouraged to explore their capabilities and limitations thoroughly, they will never reach their full potential.
not sure how economical that is considering pot usage or time needed to accomplish, good if you're charmed or got a few dozen pots to burn, otherwise a 'new' player cant do this

cyan replies. i understand your frustration but expecting lower levels to hold off culti/bh OR ragequit because a lv100 has joined is just ridiculous. in my play time i've seen very few clerics/barbs which means i can't do my bh w/o higher leveled tank

Mitachi - Dreamweaver

I sped read through most of this. People need to make smaller paragraphs my poor eyes.


But player base is definitely way too spoiled lately. People QQ when they dont get help for small tasks, power level and never take the time to learn their class. Nation wars is an awesome way to check whether someone power leveled or not. 5 lvl 100 sins cant drop me which is highly pathetic, one shotted 4/5 with tempest, where are their daeden nerves? Sins have dropped from the greatest threat to the most easiest for me to kill.

Grinded 90 lvls on my bm before i actually did fc, fc still dropped gear mats then, TT use to take 2 hours, now people QQ if it takes more than 30min. Did bh with the same levels in squad. Lvl 100's are part of the spoiled player base because we help lower levels with bh, people need to start squading with their own lvl squad and do the instance together, its the best way to learn how to work with other classes and to learn tips and tricks about your own class.

People rush too much lately too, lvl 100's rush through bhs, don't wait for everyone to arrive, dont wait for buffs, in the end a nicely paced bh takes 15min shorter and then when we done we go sit in south an be bored. We should take our time with things. Nirvy is only good for shards now, you get a canny and you QQ cause you wanted a shard. Weird **** happening lately lol.

Lesthar - Heavens Tear

I'll make it short and clear.

PWE never punished the overblown FC powerleveling practice (removing heads from there would do the trick), even when they knew about it, with solid proofs on tow (screenshots). I am sure it's because a part of such a group of people would then aim for r9 or packs among others, which indeed require investments that may be linked to gold or direct cash-shopping.

Many many people got to level 100+ in a short notice without much effort and noisily bragged around, while still not taking the proper time to experiment then perfecting the new skills offered to them. It was all 'here and now, no need for effort or delayed rewards', like how teens are formatted to be these days.

Such a blatant phenomenon appeared during the first Earthguard expansion, with fools showing off the fact they got to level 100 in a week (then there is no need to create new skins, new lands, new quests, new NPCs, new mobs and a dedicated storyline for them. Only a shell of a character, with skills and equipment possibilities would suffice them)

And now I can see that factions and squad teams QQ about characters that are unable to do their part of the job?
It's hilarious and disheartening alike.

I have two words on this to sum it up:
Just desserts.

*Shrugs and leaves*

ScarFury - Lost City

i agree with the op almost 100%. The ideal way that i wish every player would do things is to try and squad up with one or 2 players their own lvl and do quests together specially bosses and bhs and such BUT i will say these days (not like back when i started just a lil bit b4 genies came out) its hard to even find other players that are actually here to play the game. Everyone would just rather play the "lets lvl as fast as possible game" which to me is pointless unless ur making urself a buffing alt or a farming alt. In the 4 yrs or so ive played this game i only have4 real characters. A bm for first 2 yrs and a seeker for the past 2 yrs-ish. with an archer alt when i played my bm that only got to 77 and now im messin around with a barb alt. archer not so much, but with my bm which was way back in the day when everyone actually played the game right it taught me how to play that class like a pro. And a bm is so versatile thats pretty hard (no gettin 5.0aps and doing nothing but normal attacks is NOT pro) even back then in those almost 2 yrs i only got my bm to lvl 95 lol. Then when seekers came out i gave it a try and got hooked on the class. To me it was like a BM and an archer combined....HA melee class that also had ranged skills sum of which were mag (metal) based. I purposefully tried to lvl my seeker SLOWLY by doing all the quests and not even doin frost or BHs until i was 8x....and i STILL hit 100 in bout a month. But either way i made sure to learn the class, i make it a personal goal to try and solo everything and every boss. Also made myself unlearn the lame dependance everyone has on clerics. If i die its NOT a clerics fault...its my own fault for not watching my hp....same goes for everyone else. Moral of the story is i always hear "seekers arent great at pvp" well....its up to a player to make the most out of their class no matter which it is, and i always love showing all those damn r9s what an undergeared seeker can do. Im not gonna lie i miss stun locking with my bm but the seeker is a lot funner to use in 1v1s and TWs. And the 2 seekers on my server that i consider to be the best at the class in terms of skill and gear (im sure they know who they are) i cant say ive beat either at 1v1 but def last much longer than me or them would have guess considering my not so amazing gear. Its not **** by any means but far from full r9+12 wit vit or josds. r8 recast +5 with immac citrines FTW!

sorry for the wall of txt let me sum it up....play the damn game = pro at ur class
power level to 100 = try to learn 30 skills and combos while other players yell at you non stop until u GUESS the right thing to do ONE time.

PS any APS seekers out....PLEASE......GO ROLL A BM OR SIN and stop thinkin ur anything but wasting ur time lol.

mrcharlyplustwo

As a contrast, the other day I was putting together a squad for my archer's FB69.

I got a veno, a cleric, a seeker, a barb, then another barb.

Two then quit because we weren't going to wine it (two of us needed mobs in there). Then another quit because we didn't have a tank anymore.

Got full squad again (7 teles grr), same mix.

We were romping through. Barbs doing pulls of whole areas, bringing back to seeker, seeker spamming aoes, me using BoA from afar.

One of the barbs complained absolutely none stop about the waste of time it was because we weren't wining the dungeon.

Two squad member's pm'd me asking what the problem was, they were enjoying themselves.

The seeker was really happy; it was the *first time* they'd had the experience of being the primary AOE DD.

To me it showed how much fun a full squad to could be and gave us all a chance to find out about playing strategies; me using BoA, then cancelling and killing randoms that aggroed the cleric, that sort of thing.

Sometimes I wonder why some people play; surely the enjoyment is in the actual playing?

Lesthar - Heavens Tear

mrcharlyplustwo wrote: »

As a contrast, the other day I was putting together a squad for my archer's FB69.

I got a veno, a cleric, a seeker, a barb, then another barb.

Two then quit because we weren't going to wine it (two of us needed mobs in there). Then another quit because we didn't have a tank anymore.

Got full squad again (7 teles grr), same mix.

We were romping through. Barbs doing pulls of whole areas, bringing back to seeker, seeker spamming aoes, me using BoA from afar.

One of the barbs complained absolutely none stop about the waste of time it was because we weren't wining the dungeon.

Two squad member's pm'd me asking what the problem was, they were enjoying themselves.

The seeker was really happy; it was the *first time* they'd had the experience of being the primary AOE DD.

To me it showed how much fun a full squad to could be and gave us all a chance to find out about playing strategies; me using BoA, then cancelling and killing randoms that aggroed the cleric, that sort of thing.

Sometimes I wonder why some people play; surely the enjoyment is in the actual playing?

It's fun until one messes up and causes a party wipe. It's fun unless you got people that only think PWI is a 'serious business' alone.
It's become really difficult with all of these people that got picky. You know the usual line of 'If you are not r9, +12, -xx int, platinum charms of both categories and whatever shards in the sockets of equipment, get out' (scaredy cats?)

QQ and raging ensues once the exact plan is not followed.

You know, it's like when two kids play pushing each other, until one falls on the floor and starts crying then blames the other for being a bully.

And yes! A game is supposed to bring fun and kill a lot of free time in the meantime. But alas, too many people seem to have forgotten it. It's not even about tactics... It's about stupidly, mindlessly punch a mob with the speed of a machine gun while robotically knowing where EACH subsequent foe is placed and where to stand to beat a boss, among others.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

mrcharlyplustwo wrote: »

As a contrast, the other day I was putting together a squad for my archer's FB69.

I got a veno, a cleric, a seeker, a barb, then another barb.

Two then quit because we weren't going to wine it (two of us needed mobs in there). Then another quit because we didn't have a tank anymore.

Got full squad again (7 teles grr), same mix.

We were romping through. Barbs doing pulls of whole areas, bringing back to seeker, seeker spamming aoes, me using BoA from afar.

One of the barbs complained absolutely none stop about the waste of time it was because we weren't wining the dungeon.

Two squad member's pm'd me asking what the problem was, they were enjoying themselves.

The seeker was really happy; it was the *first time* they'd had the experience of being the primary AOE DD.

To me it showed how much fun a full squad to could be and gave us all a chance to find out about playing strategies; me using BoA, then cancelling and killing randoms that aggroed the cleric, that sort of thing.

Sometimes I wonder why some people play; surely the enjoyment is in the actual playing?

Could have done it like tm 69 b:victory, without the quest. The drops are insane when you clear it like tm69.

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary

I think you people are just over-thinking.

I've played this game for quite some years and I've meet a lot of players...and believe me, there are some who's been playing for years like me and are still clueless in my eyes....I've been playing most of my minor alts better than someone's main.


Things aren't always as complicated as they are, power level or not, helping too much or soling most of the game, the WAY simpler truth is that there are good players and bad players,end of the story.

Labells - Dreamweaver

OK so I've trawled through and read most peoples comments (those that haven't learnt how to form a paragraph or use an enter key I skipped. b:surrender

I think people are not taking into account the external cultural factors that also impact this game! and (at the risk of sounding old) most younger generations want EVERYTHING now! they don't get taught that working hard gives you rewards (that you end up feeling pretty proud of).

People seem to have developed this mentality also of "the mob quest is in my list and I can't do it - someone MUST DO IT FOR ME NOW!!" rather than what I had to do when I was little which was leave quest move on to next quest & try when I had another level on me (and no exp to lose). That's actually when levelling was fun I had a whole stack of quests I would revisit and feel achievement when I finally hit the point I could actually do it (Chi'in took me quite a few levels to kill) it also sharpened my skills - I didn't care if I died I dedicated that first night of a new level to sharpening my skills and dirt napping when I got rolled by mobs or a boss (I did it a lot hence the forum name)

I do believe that BerserkBeast did sum it up however ....

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »

truth is that there are good players and bad players,end of the story.

When will people learn that as a player you learn more from squad wipes than you do from paint by numbers easy successful runs. Failing on a boss for some means they will actually assess the situation & skills within the squad, and work out how to achieve the desired end result - it may not be pretty / fast or easy and egos may get dented, if people are told to sit on the sidelines because they can't control their agro or get 1 shot by an aoe, but with the exception of a few bosses (not in BH's) at level squads can get the job done, it's just that many of the people driving the toons are lazy and have attention spans shorter than a Kim Kardshian marriage.

Also, at the end of the day factions too have had a role to play they pressure people into "being high level" and you're not anything in this game unless "you're high level" I've met some high levels I've really wanted to ask to delete their toon because their so bad at playing them. b:shocked

PWI is about the journey, there is no end to this game there is not 1 boss you finally kill and the credits role when will people learn this

ponyduck

Labells - Dreamweaver wrote: »

PWI is about the journey, there is no end to this game there is not 1 boss you finally kill and the credits role when will people learn this

I always use the analogy . . .

There is a long journey thru the countryside, full of forests & lakes,
cliffs and deserts--a winding road thru some of the best beauties of nature,
and some of its treacheries, before you get to the end.

The people whose eyes are strictly on the end just want to rush thru, don't
take time to look about them--they'll hitch a ride on someone's back if
possible--anything to get to the end. Because isn't that the purpose? they
say.

They take shortcuts, cheat, do whatever they have to do in order to get to
the end. And when they finally arrive, they find a dull, nondescript empty
field.

"And THIS is what we made the journey for?! No reward for all that?" they ask
in indignation.

The wise man at the end tells them, "No, the reward was in the journey
itself."