Affect of Factions on Players' Abilities

Darkette - Sanctuary

Ever since the advent of power leveling players by way of FCC and Hyper Stones I've heard old timers gripe about the influx of higher leveled players who are unskilled in their respective classes. I've probably remarked on it a time or two myself. b:laugh

But I don't think power leveling is the only source of, let us say, less than proficient players.

I've had alts in a couple of factions where higher level members were super helpful. For instance, a level-30 veno asks for help with Florafang and a level-90 mystic immediately offers assistance.

Helpfulness of high-level faction mates is certainly a good thing; contrariwise, I wonder if this kind of assistance doesn't also cripple new players. In the example, above (which really happened) the veno certainly had the capability to deal with the mini boss, but was robbed of the opportunity to learn from the encounter.

Repeatedly, I've seen members of factions request 100+ level Barbs, Seekers, etc. to come help with low and mid-level BHs; and I've silently wondered how the overpowered assistance affected the lower level players. It's something that's troubled me for a long time, and I wonder what others think about it.

Recently, I've encountered at least one Mystic and a Psychic who really seemed quite clewless about their respective squad roles -- one of them kept attacking groups of mobs in FB69, seemingly oblivious to the fact that doing so would aggro nearby mobs. (Neither player was power leveled, but they had received a LOT of help from high-level faction mates).

Personally, I refuse to help anyone with normal quests or with mini bosses I know the player can handle on their own.

Is my concern misplaced?

anwynd

Darkette - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally, I refuse to help anyone with normal quests or with mini bosses I know the player can handle on their own.

Is my concern misplaced?

i agree with what you do in the bolded no use babying them its better to let people learn the limitations and how to use there skills to the best of their ability in a way that will make it possible for a task that can be soloed.

your concern is not misplaced because i noticed the same thing in my own faction. If the person doesnt like it that no one will do everything for them they can leave for all i care or they can take our advice and do it on their own and figure out what is the best way to do it with their given skills and feel proud that they no how to do it.

Desdi - Sanctuary

You have a good point and I very much agree with you Darkette. It's also very sad to see people asking in faction for help with each and everything and whining, complaining and QQing about it on top of it; specifically when they don't receive help.

Most quests can be solo'd save for FBs, several cultivation bosses and a few other special quests. Not once did I ask for assistance with quests on my toons. In fact, I've had much more fun trying to solo them myself and trying to figure out how to do them and how to survive.

I remember Florafang being a great challenge for my Venomancer back then and it was a great feeling going against archer and melee mini bosses on my Cleric and surviving with the use of shields and heals or the time I solo'd the Tideborn Traitor with my Psychic or when I solo'd Krixxix with my Mystic which appeared impossible back in the days.

BaronSamedi - Dreamweaver

Over the years I've noticed this problem myself. There is a big difference in helping and doing everything for a person. The latter is just the same as if you are hypering them to max level with frost. If something is within the players level range and abilities, I will always suggest they try it on their own first. If they still need a hand after that, I'll offer to take an alt in the same level range to help. Most times thought they will try and succeed on their first attempt, giving them more of a sense of pride in their own abilities after.

fuzzywuzz

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Most quests can be solo'd save for FBs, several cultivation bosses and a few other special quests.

They can?

Chin, Eye of Crimson, Jewel etc have nothing to do with Culti... Get it on.. lets see you solo them at the level the quest appears.


Fuzzy helps his faction wherever he can.. culti or not be dammed.. years ago it took a group effort the 1st time the panda tried such things but is it so wrong that he can now kill em in a shot or two and pay it forward to his faction?

Helping your faction or others in the name of the game... do they learn less or does higher levels teach em less by showing em how its done?

Fuzzy think not.

ovenusarmanio

I came to this conclusion a while ago and have even left BH squads on my psychic if a high level was invited, but usually I just form them myself and refuse high level help. I feel like i'm a much better psychic for it. The map mobs after a while weren't teach me a thing, they died before they even got to me. Harder mobs like instance mobs helped teach me how to aoe better and safer. If instance mobs weren't so darn tough, I probably would've waited to level psychic will because the map mobs could simply be knocked back and really weren't doing that much damage. Now I'm pretty damn good at timing it and soloed all the mini bosses I was capable of soloing at the level they were supposed to be done. Obviously a faction member can't do everything by themselves, some bosses are simply too tough for that person at that level. But I do think there is too much reliance on high level help, especially in BHs. I get annoyed whenever a perfectly good squad has the squad's last spot taken up by a high level. You got a tank, healer, and 3 dds what possible reason is there for a 100 bm to join us?


Although I certainly appreciate the help when the squad is wiping too much because someone can't do their jobs right.b:chuckle

Jeremied - Sanctuary

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

They can?

Chin, Eye of Crimson, Jewel etc have nothing to do with Culti... Get it on.. lets see you solo them at the level the quest appears.


Fuzzy helps his faction wherever he can.. culti or not be dammed.. years ago it took a group effort the 1st time the panda tried such things but is it so wrong that he can now kill em in a shot or two and pay it forward to his faction?

Helping your faction or others in the name of the game... do they learn less or does higher levels teach em less by showing em how its done?

Fuzzy think not.

Fuzzy, wouldn't those bosses fall under "other special quests?"

In my opinion, it's no fun being walked through the game by someone that can 1-2 hit things. True, for some people, all they want is someone carry them to endgame. Others just want to have fun. I've refused people that are 90+ to help with some of my own lower level bhs, and while I appreciate their offers, if I have a nearly full squad with people around my own level, I'd rather keep it that way. I'd rather risk dying and having fun than staring at the backside of some high level while they murder everything at a glance.

Most people in my faction ask "Can ____ be soloed?" instead of asking for help outright. If they can't handle it themselves once, then we'll gladly go out in droves to help. Learning to walk on you own is important, we can't be forced to carry you all the way to endgame without some effort on your part.

Nurse_Abbie - Sanctuary

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

They can?

Chin, Eye of Crimson, Jewel etc have nothing to do with Culti... Get it on.. lets see you solo them at the level the quest appears.


Fuzzy helps his faction wherever he can.. culti or not be dammed.. years ago it took a group effort the 1st time the panda tried such things but is it so wrong that he can now kill em in a shot or two and pay it forward to his faction?

Helping your faction or others in the name of the game... do they learn less or does higher levels teach em less by showing em how its done?

Fuzzy think not.

I think Krimson and Jewelscalen are covered under her "save for FBs, several cultivation bosses and a few other special quests."

Ch'in is perhaps a bad example because he can be solo'd by an at-level cleric with decent gear.

First time I solo'd Jewelscalen was with a level-93 veno ... lured him to ground with my flying pet and killed him with my herc. It was an adventure, but probably nothing the BM I was killing him for was going to learn much from.

It's good to pay forward -- very good. But I think you missed the point, Fuzzy. If you, for example, do a cleric's BH69 for her every day, how's she gonna learn to keep a level 80 barb alive while killing Nob or Pole? Help is good, too much help not so much.

westcoaster78

I believe that bh's should be done by the players in that lvl range. My seeker, when I played him, was able to tank all his own bh's with the aid of healers. All quests and anything you want to do should be done with a group of your own lvl imo. This is a MMORG right lol, needing high lvl help is not needed unless it's those bosses we have all come to love to smash with our high level toons now that we can get our revenge. I am not saying you always need a squad but that's what the fun of PWI is or well @ least was b:victory

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I had the same experience where a family faction was super helpful and always ran together. So you had the 75+ chars "helping" in a BH100 and you had the 100+ "helping" in the lower level BHs. Really, the lower levels were just running around talking and poking things that were already aggrod with no fear of out aggroing chars 30 levels above them, and the level 100 were just doing the BHs for them.

It was creating noobs. It lead me to my personal position of "I'll help with quest bosses or if I've seen you spam WC for 15 minutes repeatedly with no luck, but really, BHs and quests are up to you. Go find a squad on the platform or WC."

MANray_ - Sanctuary

I recently had a very disapointing experience with a lower level guildie I was helping with single mode TT in order to farm a weapon. At the end of would have been the first of a couple of runs (I'll be punctual in pointing out I had committed to nothing else, and that I made it clear I might be keeping some of the mats as I'm currently farming the souledge for my TT99 weapon) and after this player somehow managed to get himself killed twice, I dropped whatever mats had landed on my inventory for him to pick up, even when these were all materials he didn't actually need for his weapon, and ported out. Suddenly he starts complaining in faction chat that I was holding out on him as if I had cheated him, demanding I return a fine orb (that's a DQ item) that had dropped from one of the mobs. Now, at first I found the whole thing ridiculously funny and when I asked him why he needed the item he responded he was saving DQ points, to which I replied that we ALL are saving up DQ points. Now, I would've given him the thing had he only asked nicely, but his demands eventaully did **** me off and I dropped him from squad. When he continued to demand his DQ item I just replied I would gladly exchange it for the subs I had used (and which otherwise I would have never even brought up) after which he started ranting about the OBLIGATION I had to help him out with everything he needed, and that once squadded he considered it my DUTY not to bail out until he was satisfied that he had gotten everything he needed. Now, were I not an officer in my faction I would've let him have a piece of my mind about just exactly where he could shove any of the obligations he appeared to believe I had towards him... As it was I simply announced I was turning off faction chat (I didn't) and watched a couple of friends bait him into further explaining all the other obligations he believes higher levels acquire when agreeing to help lowbies.

Now, it's not that I don't actually believe you do have some duties towards lower level players (both in the general sense and when squadding them) but to me these are mostly born out of a legitimate desire to help others and to mantain conditions in which they can progress through the game. This entitlement attitude he probably must have gotten being cuddled into 8x (its not even like he was that much lower level than me) despite which he had likely remained a faction hopper... And this rotten behaviour is unfortunately not an isolated example. As someone who still receives plenty of help I do try to go out of my way to show my appreciation towards people using their time to help me... It's only natural, and that some people believe they are entitled to make demands on those trying to help them just blows my mind as an utter lack of common sense I couldn't possibly begin to explain. And we get a lot of these people, demanding FCC runs, TT gear, asking for loans the second they become a part of the faction... But don't ask them to take a second off their time when the very people who have been so patient helping them require help for their alts. It's just sickening and I do think that as a community we do have a problem here. However this is difficult to act on as I guess many of us realize just how rare new players have become. You do find some terrific people out there, but increasingly lower level players seem to become spoiled brats that half expect the rest of us to act as if we were customer service...

Decus - Dreamweaver

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

They can?

Chin, Eye of Crimson, Jewel etc have nothing to do with Culti... Get it on.. lets see you solo them at the level the quest appears...

Way to not really read the post you quoted and then put on holier-than-thou airs

Jaabg - Sanctuary

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

They can?

Chin, Eye of Crimson, Jewel etc have nothing to do with Culti... Get it on.. lets see you solo them at the level the quest appears.

I still maintain BM is the only class that can do this game on easy mode at any level b:victory. Well after 39 b:chuckle. I believe i killed those bosses in me lvl 50's with a cleric's help in healing me. Those bosses are not hard, just requires learning your class well. If the class is a squishy one, just need to go and do it with a tank.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Suddenly he starts complaining in faction chat that I was holding out on him as if I had cheated him, demanding I return a fine orb (that's a DQ item) that had dropped from one of the mobs.

Wow b:shocked, you should also pay his repair bill and pay him a 10m daily fee for being in his awesome presence b:victory. Once he reaches endgame, make sure you have orbs 1~12 waiting for all his gear, seriously MANray_ you should know the basics of helping people, +12 their endgame is the least you can do in helping out for reaching a higher level first.

Nurse_Abbie - Sanctuary

I'm the OP, and I'm compelled to clarify I actually enjoy helping; it's one of very few things that continues to keep the game interesting for me. If someone asks for help on WC and I'm anywhere in the vicinity I'll usually stop what I'm doing and go help them -- and not for reputation in some FB -- I've killed the last Sign of the Seven boss umpteen times in the past few weeks alone, and my Herc knows his way by heart to the Drake dragon thingy in the Goshiki quest chain. Lord knows, there were plenty of terrific people who helped me; so, I feel a certain obligation to give back, even if it's just a random act of kindness.

But, yeah, I've encountered the same kind of horror story MANray described so eloquently. Still, it's not the "you owe me" attitude that puts me off so much, it's encountering these same folks (after they've power leveled to 100) in a BH and they're useless, if not downright detrimental to the squad. Or, in one prominent case I could name (but won't), you see them talking smack in WC about their PK prowess.

Too many venos can't lure, clerics spin up BB when it's unecessary and never fire a shot (or never heal at all), BMs don't know how to stun, barbs that can hold aggro don't, mystics die in droves because they've never learned how to let their summons hold aggro, and lowbie sins can't restrain themselves from stealing aggro from designated tanks. It's a freaking mess and in some measure I fear we've done it to ourselves.

seitori

Historically, If I have seen someone who can handle a mob or boss without the need of a high lv too beat them, then the most I normally will do will be to only switch to my cleric to help them and then heal them from without (and not in a squad position)....b:victory

But sometimes I find people who actually have no chance whatsoever of beating a target or getting others of like level to squad with them for a run, during times when the servers are pretty much dead & snoozing and then I'll help them rather then ignore their plees for help... But end all I agree with your thoughts some of the best chances they have to learn their classes are to be on squads which they can accidentally pull agro on and cause a squad wipe, so It would be good if they left the cake runs with Absolute High Lvs for the last ditch attempts for help (Like the FB I helped with today, that the tabber I knew asked me too help out with; he wasted like 18 Teles and only got 1 person of his level too answer him for the squad after about 20 minutes of WC'ing, so after that I just told him to add that he'd like high lv help since no one answered b4 for a {regular squad} And BAMMMmmm he got a full squad in less then 30 seconds & 1 Tele) so doing it as a last resort is ok, but doing it immediately all the time shouldn't be what one should do....b:thanks

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

The only thing I wont help it's quest mobs, cause they can be solo, for the rest mini-boss or boss, culti or not I'll help if I can.

That remind me one time a sin asked for help in guild chat for a ''mob'' for culti, mob that i remember I soloed on every char I made, cleric, wizz, mystic and veno and I was really wondering why a sin cannot solo it, so I want there to help and the sin told me was 5 times he tried and die, I realize the sin wasn't bp himself...

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I came to this conclusion a while ago and have even left BH squads on my psychic if a high level was invited, but usually I just form them myself and refuse high level help. I feel like i'm a much better psychic for it. The map mobs after a while weren't teach me a thing, they died before they even got to me. Harder mobs like instance mobs helped teach me how to aoe better and safer. If instance mobs weren't so darn tough, I probably would've waited to level psychic will because the map mobs could simply be knocked back and really weren't doing that much damage. Now I'm pretty damn good at timing it and soloed all the mini bosses I was capable of soloing at the level they were supposed to be done. Obviously a faction member can't do everything by themselves, some bosses are simply too tough for that person at that level. But I do think there is too much reliance on high level help, especially in BHs. I get annoyed whenever a perfectly good squad has the squad's last spot taken up by a high level. You got a tank, healer, and 3 dds what possible reason is there for a 100 bm to join us?


Although I certainly appreciate the help when the squad is wiping too much because someone can't do their jobs right.b:chuckle

I've had the very same trouble over the last couple of years too venus, specially when it came to my seeker when he was in the 60s. at the time i didnt know if he could tank 51 or not so i stuck being a normal dd class while i almost always got a high lvl in squad to tank the whole instance for every bh51 i had. eventually i had learned that my seeker could tank 51 with a proper cleric. i was able to tank all 3 bosses on my seeker in the 60s least twice. one time i remember a 100+ sin who was rushing through everything and not giving the rest of us in squad a chance to kill some of the mobs ourselves, i was bout ready to leave that squad but i didnt due to me needing the bosses. Here's what its coming down to mostly, high lvls are just plain getting bored of doing their own things and end up having to help with a low lvl bh instance just to get out of the cycle of boredom. recently also before (and even after) my psy got to lvl 80, sometimes i would get a 100+ cleric instead of an average lvl cleric who needed 59 would join squad and end up practically tanking the whole run. With me i pretty much expect clerics to be clerics, not clerics to be tanks especially in an instance where its mostly mag type bosses. now days, which ever toon that i'm on i sometimes end up helping someone in 29 or 39 since alot of the average players don't run those instances anymore. however i do try and tell some ppl within their own lvl range to try it for themselves stead of having me hold their hand and do the boss or quest for them. i think its more than time that clerics go back to being clerics the way they were made stead of having r8/r9 clerics tank instances that a barb, bm, or seeker should be tanking.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I recently had a very disapointing experience with a lower level guildie I was helping with single mode TT in order to farm a weapon. At the end of would have been the first of a couple of runs (I'll be punctual in pointing out I had committed to nothing else, and that I made it clear I might be keeping some of the mats as I'm currently farming the souledge for my TT99 weapon) and after this player somehow managed to get himself killed twice, I dropped whatever mats had landed on my inventory for him to pick up, even when these were all materials he didn't actually need for his weapon, and ported out. Suddenly he starts complaining in faction chat that I was holding out on him as if I had cheated him, demanding I return a fine orb (that's a DQ item) that had dropped from one of the mobs. Now, at first I found the whole thing ridiculously funny and when I asked him why he needed the item he responded he was saving DQ points, to which I replied that we ALL are saving up DQ points. Now, I would've given him the thing had he only asked nicely, but his demands eventaully did **** me off and I dropped him from squad. When he continued to demand his DQ item I just replied I would gladly exchange it for the subs I had used (and which otherwise I would have never even brought up) after which he started ranting about the OBLIGATION I had to help him out with everything he needed, and that once squadded he considered it my DUTY not to bail out until he was satisfied that he had gotten everything he needed. Now, were I not an officer in my faction I would've let him have a piece of my mind about just exactly where he could shove any of the obligations he appeared to believe I had towards him... As it was I simply announced I was turning off faction chat (I didn't) and watched a couple of friends bait him into further explaining all the other obligations he believes higher levels acquire when agreeing to help lowbies.

Now, it's not that I don't actually believe you do have some duties towards lower level players (both in the general sense and when squadding them) but to me these are mostly born out of a legitimate desire to help others and to mantain conditions in which they can progress through the game. This entitlement attitude he probably must have gotten being cuddled into 8x (its not even like he was that much lower level than me) despite which he had likely remained a faction hopper... And this rotten behaviour is unfortunately not an isolated example. As someone who still receives plenty of help I do try to go out of my way to show my appreciation towards people using their time to help me... It's only natural, and that some people believe they are entitled to make demands on those trying to help them just blows my mind as an utter lack of common sense I couldn't possibly begin to explain. And we get a lot of these people, demanding FCC runs, TT gear, asking for loans the second they become a part of the faction... But don't ask them to take a second off their time when the very people who have been so patient helping them require help for their alts. It's just sickening and I do think that as a community we do have a problem here. However this is difficult to act on as I guess many of us realize just how rare new players have become. You do find some terrific people out there, but increasingly lower level players seem to become spoiled brats that half expect the rest of us to act as if we were customer service...

If i remember this right, i had a similar situation like that where someone in faction was running an FF so i had offered to help out. came to find out that he was a sin duel clienting bout 2-3 of his toons while trying to hyper. this guy was stealthing through the mobs while i was behind waiting for him to clear the mobs ahead. so eventually he ended up dying somewhere while i was filling up the squad to complete this Ff run. it got finished eventually that is. another situation was when i was in another FF run, this sin in squad was causing ppl to die just to save his sry butt. soon after him being a show off i had just taken all that i could put up with him and so i gave him a piece of my mind which from the looks of it wasn't going to be changing his tune anytime soon. i had left squad and this barb who was from the same faction as i was said that i shouldn't leave cause i was an exec. like is it my DUTY to stay in a squad when all you get is one big creep causing ppl to die and have them lose exp over someone being a show off? i don't think so.

seitori

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

The only thing I wont help it's quest mobs, cause they can be solo, for the rest mini-boss or boss, culti or not I'll help if I can.

That remind me one time a sin asked for help in guild chat for a ''mob'' for culti, mob that i remember I soloed on every char I made, cleric, wizz, mystic and veno and I was really wondering why a sin cannot solo it, so I want there to help and the sin told me was 5 times he tried and die, I realize the sin wasn't bp himself...

LMAOOoooo!!!!b:laugh


Yep Theres Alot Of Sins out there Nowadays that seriously need too learn their skills today...b:chuckle



I mean how hard can it be for them to realize how to use {Chill of the Deep} for instance too Nerf their Aps's for the squad tanks, so they can keep Agro...b:chuckleb:chuckle


I mean its not that hard to learn the how too use the best skills for the times they go through on squads (I mean for godz sake I once watched a SIN drop all his INT armor for a BH69 for PoLE rather then just use {CotD} to do a far better nerfing of their aps then what they were doing by stripping & still be able to keep their armors protection.....b:laugh

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

seitori wrote: »

LMAOOoooo!!!!b:laugh


Yep Theres Alot Of Sins out there Nowadays that seriously need too learn their skills today...b:chuckle



I mean how hard can it be for them to realize how to use {Chill of the Deep} for instance too Nerf their Aps's for the squad tanks, so they can keep Agro...b:chuckleb:chuckle


I mean its not that hard to learn the how too use the best skills for the times they go through on squads (I mean for godz sake I once watched a SIN drop all his INT armor for a BH69 for PoLE rather then just use {CotD} to do a far better nerfing of their aps then what they were doing by stripping & still be able to keep their armors protection.....b:laugh

Many sins don't notice when bp run out, as cleric often I tell them that bp is out and they say ''Oh thx didn't noticed it''.

Or a sin saying ''Heal you stupid cleric I'm dying'' while I'm healing him and me ''Bp yourself before scream at me moron'' than he answer ''Oh didn't know I didn't had bp'' ... /facepalm. How sins can forget something like that. xD

Some people are good, some are not, some play since years one class and still suck. That depend how much time the person spend learning his class, read skills, try them, listen the advices of experimented players and ask question when they don't understand something.

Reliea - Sanctuary

In a faction, there are people that you -help-, and then there are people that you do-everything-for.
Help = "Could someone help, I can't find a tank/healer for bh 51/69," or, "no one's doing -insert something below bh100 here-, can someone help me?"
Do-everything-for = "Hey you highlvl person, solo -tt (and give me all the mats I want)/fcc/my bh for me and only me" or worse yet "give me money, I'm poor n you're sooo rich".

The do-everything-for people are also the most entitled. You, as the high lvl person, do all the work, and they get all the reward.

It becomes then more up to the faction leaders/high lvl members, to decide how much value one of these people bring to the faction.

Apart from some genuinely altruistic people, the main reason you help lowbies who are acquaintances more than friends in your faction, is to keep them from leaving. Being a member of a faction has to have -some- benefit, or why bother joining/staying in the first place? In an ideal faction, you should be able to find the party members/items/assistance you need, eventually, most of the time.

When it comes to the truly needy/whiney, you have to think "is this person worth investing in?" The answer is no. You know who these people are, so stop doing-everything-for the whiney/needy/grabby people in your faction. Encourage them to leave by not giving into their needs, since it's more likely than not that when they get what they want from you, they'll move on to the next place. All that time and effort you devoted to their desires will be wasted, with no benefit to you or your faction.

The people who don't ask for help often are the most worthy of helping - since their lack of requests means they're either so casual that helping them now and again will take very little time in the grand scheme of things, or they are generally self-sufficient and capable enough to handle a lot of the regular daily things on their own (and these are the people you want to nurture). If we all thought more in terms of "what have I done for them lately?" more than "what have they done for me lately?" it wouldn't matter what level or class the person giving/receiving the help is, the general quality of playtime experience would be raised.

ponyduck

The problem isn't factions helping per se, it's the fact that, because
there are so few new/low-level players out there, all runs/bosses, etc., will
include a high-level who basically solo's the thing for you while you just
follow behind.

I can only speak for Lost City, but I have been playing low-level chars for
over a year now, and there are virtually NO low levels there. Let me amend
that a bit--there might be low levels, but they're low for maybe a day or two,
just until they get enough frosts under their belts.

People here are always saying--just start your own squad & don't include
high levels. OK . . . (3 hrs later) . . . "well, do you think just the 3 of us
can do this?"

I have started squads, I have joined squads, I have wc'd endlessly for the
lower bh's. There are simply not enough at-level players out there to make up
a squad. I'm lucky if I can do a bh every 3-4 days.

I've often wished PW had decided to make their flagship game a p2p, and used their
other games for the fast buck.

Desdi - Sanctuary

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

They can?

Chin, Eye of Crimson, Jewel etc have nothing to do with Culti... Get it on.. lets see you solo them at the level the quest appears.

I remember people calling those purple quest and boss quests as "special quests" back in 2008 and early 2009 and that's why I put the bosses you mentioned under that category.

I think my post came off as a person who doesn't like helping others, which is totally not true. I enjoy and love helping those in need but I don't like helping people who demand the help, much like in MANray's case.
I won't help a person who will not appreciate the time I put into helping them. I'm not expecting them to give me anything in return, a simple "thank you" is all I need, really. Knowing that they have appreciated my help is more than enough for me.

The problem isn't factions helping per se

The problem is the factions (and not only) who literally baby sit other players and grab them by their hand and lead them to endgame.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Well, I always do ask miniplayers if they want to go properly and at-level. And almost always, no, they're actually an alt, they want to power through.

Even a couple of years ago when lower level characters WERE player's real mains; most people just want to power through.

Blame the players, frankly.

Absinda - Sanctuary

To be clear, high-level faction members coddling lowbies isn't the sole contributor to players' lack of skill, no more than we can lodge all the blame on hyper leveling. A good bit of the problem rests squarely on the kind of individual often drawn to MMORPGs.

When I started this game there was a seemingly large population of hard core players -- people who were online many hours every day, grinding their butts off trying to earn coin for better gear or, in the case of some of us venomancers, grinding ad nauseum to purchase a Herc. We watched as PWI assaulted our population on multiple fronts -- Anniversary and subsequent packs disrupted the economy, and premium gear in packs disincentivised players to "earn" their perks; and nerfing of quests and various easy routes to power leveling further discouraged the hard core players and ballooned the population of casual players who could, in many cases, buy their way to the top while spending only an hour or two daily within the game.

Two things: being hard core is no guarantee that anyone will be pro, and being casual doesn't mean a given player can't be very good. Notwithstanding, I posit the more time a player spends in-game, working legitimately for gear and level, will likely result in them becoming a more knowledgeable, competent player. Moreover, players who've spent untold hours in the game world earning their perks the old fashioned way are likely to be more loyal -- in it for the long haul -- if only because they've invested so much of their time. My second caveat is that PWI's F2P model is cash shop based, and given the high cost of franchising the base game, subsequent expansions, Chinese programmer support, server overhead, and local paid employees, PWI has been compelled to leverage the cash shop in every way possible. They've certainly catered effectively to the pay-to-win mentality endemic to so many players.

So, what we're left with is fewer hard core types showing the way and many more casual players; and amongst the latter cohort is a large population of players who view PW as a primarily social experience.

The social players -- and we've all seen them in faction -- do not place high priority on maintaining their gear or on becoming competent players. Dying while questing (or causing squad wipes) means little to them; indeed, they will often find it funny. Social players often reach high levels and become faction officers. We've all been in squad with them; we think they will be good players because of their time in game and level, but they will continue to play without skill or any real regard for squad welfare. I'm reminded of Abba and Metal runs with a level-101 archer (and faction Marshal) who continually stole aggro, died repeatedly, and laughed about it; no nevermind that those instances consequently took longer, burnt up MP, and caused the barb higher repair bills.

And then there's the ever-present population of players who fall somewhere in between -- they may sometimes take the game seriously, but not to the point of ever reading the PW Wiki, Database, or official forums. In time, they may become reasonably competent, but not before they've disrupted any number of squads or deluged their respective factions with mundane questions and constant calls for help.

To be sure, revenue decisions made by PWI have contributed largely to the problem. But I think many deficiently skilled players have been enabled by well-meaning faction members. We've all done it. It's terribly difficult to say no to a faction mate, moreso if that member is an officer or other long-time member beginning a new alt. We do all their mini bosses, run their FBs and BHs, and give them gear; all the while nurturing their mediocrity and disincentivising them to do better.

None of this bodes particularly well for the future of PW -- not in longevity of this gaming world or for the quality of the overall gaming experience. If we are to believe the trends suggested by MMORPG.com and other similar sites, hard core players are leaving MMORPGs in droves, MMORPG developers across the board are targeting their programming efforts towards the casual player. Now, if you dear reader are a casual player, this won't mean much to you. For me and others, who enjoy MMORPG immersiveness, thrive on earning our "stuff," and do whatever's necessary to improve our skill, it's devastating.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

huh, that's not what I've observed. When I was in factions that took in all level ranges, most higher level players were quite strict about not helping w/ mob quests and things that can easily be soloed.

I'd tell people how to solo things(as in what strategy/skills to use) if they were completely clueless about soloing...Hell I've had to explain the concept of zhen aoe and mp/hp food to a level 80 archer...but I wouldn't place the blame on people who are willing to help. Some people just don't pick up new information in a reasonably quick amount of time.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

@Absinda; You do make some very interesting points although I do have to disagree on a couple of points. First; Both the head company (WANMEI) and PW (the game) are rare successes on the MMO industry. Perfect World's muscle can perhaps be better illustrated by their ownership of North American studios Runic and Cryptic, and through the later some of the gaming world's most valuable MMORPG licenses (Star Trek, Neverwinter) which should clearly illustrate we are talking about a major player here. Perfect World (the game) while it certainly could be argued is now in its decline, remains a very valuable property, we are not getting a constant stream of expansions (regardless of quality) because this is the company's flagship game, but rather because it is profitable for them to do so. Yes much of this strenght comes from its home market, but we would have long ago seen server merges if the North American operation wasn't at least turning some sort of profit. The European servers are obviously not sustainable, and this may very well be the case for some others (Archosaur being the more obvious candidate) but the degree of stability we have enjoyed in this game is actually a rare thing in the industry. Our version of the game, and our playerbase, has certainly been neglected and mismanaged, and our population stands at lower levels than it should because of this. Some of us would rather blame some of their decission (over reliance of packs, poor advertising) for this, the point to all of this being that the game could certainly survive without the enormous P2Win inbalance, and that it could have been far more succesful (this game can be pretty much played on ANY computer) had choices been otherwise. I don't think "leveraging" us for profit has allowed the game to survive, rather it is the reason for its decline.

Which brings me to point 2. This game is not friendly to casual players. I see rather the opposite; a game that's left with almost nothing but hardcore players. For a community that was once well known to be divided in classes (few players could afford the dedication of getting more than one char to a decent level) we now have gone to the point where your average player probably has more alts than family. These established players are now the base of the game. Heavy CSers are not casual players either, even if many of them are notorious for game hopping. Few people decide to invest the time and money it actually takes to power level a toon (even with FCC this isn't just a couple of days for most people) and get it competitive full endgame gears if they haven't been around for a while. The way this game works now is you have to commit to investing resources to get to a high enough level you can actually pay for your char's everyday expenses and play the game as an MMO. This is a very steep entry barrier and the reason we no longer get many casuals. For someone who plays 1-2 hours a day spending half that time just trying to make a squad and the rest in repetitive farming for peanuts is not an attractive proposition. And merchanting, well, unless you make it your primary occupation you cannot succeed on a casual gaming schedule. Some of us endure because we managed some degree of stability BEFORE the game changed on us, and ocassionally you do get the kind that can afford to play/pay as a hardcore player for enough time they'll somehowh break through, but for most casual players, as things stand now, this is not a friendly environment.

Back on topic - Thank you for the responses to my previous post, it is unfortunate that mine's was a relatable story for so many...

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

Whenever someone asks for help with a normal quest (kill x amount of mobs) or an easily soloable mini-boss, I just gently suggest that they try it themselves as everyone I know was easily able to do it alone. As far as BHs, it goes two ways - when they ask for someone to run it for them I suggest they go and look for a squad at the head hunter, but if they simply ask for help from a cleric or tank or something because they have been looking for ages and have a full squad otherwise, I will help if I am not busy at the time. I know what it is like to use piles of teles trying to find that key squad member.

I do agree that having someone do everything for you is no different from just levelling in FF. If you just follow a high level around you are not learning how to play your class in a squad at all. There are times when I will run a quick BH39 if I know the person has been looking for a squad for a really long time, because I do get that you can't always find a squad (especially with so many people in FF), but on the whole I think it is much better for people to try and run the majority of them with at-level squads.

Absinda - Sanctuary

@MANray: I see very little about which we disagree, except definitions. Otherwise, I find no fault in what you've said. I think our respective characterizations of what may constitute a hard core player varies by a marked degree. In my alphabetic universe, large infusions of real-world cash is not contained within the lexicon of hard core playing; rather, the definition might be more appropriately said to infer a hefty investment of time in-game. But it's a most elusive term. I'm just as certain that any player who PKs exclusively will contend they are the only hard core types.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Absinda - Sanctuary wrote: »

@MANray: I see very little about which we disagree, except definitions. Otherwise, I find no fault in what you've said. I think our respective characterizations of what may constitute a hard core player varies by a marked degree. In my alphabetic universe, large infusions of real-world cash is not contained within the lexicon of hard core playing; rather, the definition might be more appropriately said to infer a hefty investment of time in-game. But it's a most elusive term. I'm just as certain that any player who PKs exclusively will contend they are the only hard core types.

Fair enough, I think I may have been working from the pov that a casual is any that cannot afford heavy investments of both cash and time.

Baby_pho - Heavens Tear

I dont help with mobs. most of the time if I do help with mini bosses or bh, I would only heal/buff.

Oishii - Dreamweaver

I think the game has changed and so it has changed the playerbase, not so much of factions causing it. Yes, it doesnt help to baby a player, but sometimes its good to help someone.

I started the game with a veno in early 2009, and joined a faction when i was like lvl 13-15 or so becuase a barb wanted to do normal quests together since we were around the same level. I find nothing wrong with having a quest buddy at or around the same level. This faction was tremendously helpful. No one was above lvl 80 yet because the game was still kind of new, and many of the players in faction were around the 20-45 range.

It was helpful to me when i would do fb runs and stuff with atleast one higher level player, just so that i could learn what i was supposed to do. The "dont pull this mob but that one" or when it was better to pull a boss to another spot to kill it. Going in with a squad of completely my level newbies would of been a pain. Yes, i know the first players had to do that, but when someone has already figured it out, its better to just pass on the knowledge.

By the time BH was implemented, i was around lvl 75. By then, i had grown with the same faction mates through all of my fbs and bosses and we were all around the same level. There was me, the same barb from earlier, 2BMs, a cleric, and a wizzie. We would run bh together every single day, to the point that we could predict each others movements to perfection.

Then the game really changed. Hyper leveling and just being fed up with the game caused most of the squad i had come to be with leave. The only ones still playing this game out of that original squad are me and one of the BMs. Every now and again the barb jumps on to say hi, but doesnt play.

I was left the faction leader of the now empty faction i had joined in the beginning. I tried starting it back up again, brought in new players, taught who would want to listen and learn. They began hyper lvling and surpassed me in level, and joined larger factions. Some of them i just laugh when they world chat, because i knew them when they had first started and had been so clueless, and i know they are still probably clueless. Some people, even if you offer to teach and help them, just have that mentality to not listen but just want to hurry and get something done.

I think players used to want to learn to play the game right, but that mentality is just gone now. Its not the same as when i started, and that makes finding the squad i used to have difficult. I was so used to running with them, that when i tried running with a random squad it was hard. Randoms squads didnt know how to work together or who did what at specific times. Now you are lucky to find a squad your level at all.

I joined a larger faction, thinking it would mean i would get help again from people my level for BHs and tt runs. Tey would even advertise it in WC that they did these things. But i get there, and the only thing people ran were either FC, or nirvy for the 100s. I tried making bh squads or tt squads, but no luck. I hate randoms for tt, because its hard to find people you can trust with drops and who really know what they are doing. I've found one other person now that plays the same as me, and they are my questing buddy now. I just wish i could get that one perfect squad again.

Sorry for the story/rant thing.