Nation War Supply Token Costs

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Our version of the expansion has a surprisingly different set of forges than what we saw in PWCN. While we don't get their R9 third cast set we do get a lot of good upgrade options for other gear.

Everything is made either directly or indirectly from Supply Tokens which are awarded through Nation Wars.
Supply Tokens can't be traded but 50 can be used to make a Seal of War which is tradeable and needed for all the upgrade options.

Nation War Supply Token Costs

You can see the total Supply Token / Coin costs in the blue column. I've also included the total coin costs for a wide range of possible Supply Token market values in the purple column. It's a little hard to say what the actual market value of Supply Tokens will be at the moment but the costs assuming a market value of 1m per Supply Token seem likely.

Over all I'm pretty happy with our forges as they seem much more well suited to our version of the game. If you worked out this math on the PWCN forges the manufacturing fees were all in the 10s of billions of coin.

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear

Quite useful, thanks.

But why did you add the market value of Supply Tokens? They're not tradeable.

Facerolled - Raging Tide

Most of the stuff seem expensive

b:surrender

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary

Oh my did I see cannies way under 100k in most cases?
This could kill the economy for PvE players..... b:surrender

JoeDirt - Raging Tide

Oh great and knowledgeable one has there been any kind of indication as to how many supply tokens are obtained from the nation wars?b:pleased

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Quite useful, thanks.

But why did you add the market value of Supply Tokens? They're not tradeable.

Well not directly but Seal of War is tradeable as are many of the other things they make. Anything you can make money from has a market value. Mysterious Chips for example have a market value per chip.

JoeDirt - Raging Tide wrote: »

Oh great and knowledgeable one has there been any kind of indication as to how many supply tokens are obtained from the nation wars?b:pleased

Someone on PWCN forums said 500 per NW but that could be different in our version.

JoeDirt - Raging Tide

i wonder how long until they make them available in packs...

wait wait!!!!!!! backspace quick don't give them any idea's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!b:shocked

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well not directly but Seal of War is tradeable as are many of the other things they make. Anything you can make money from has a market value. Mysterious Chips for example have a market value per chip.

Yeah, I guess that's true. It also doesn't seem unlikely that they will be obtainable through other means in the future.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Someone on PWCN forums said 500 per NW but that could be different in our version.

Doesn't NW have a participation limit of like 30 people per side? In that case there's still a limit on the amount of tokens being handed out each week.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Looking at this, unless supply tokens are valued at 1 mil or higher this could potentially kill the r8r market even more?

Oh well, so much for faction Trials

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear

Also, maybe you could add the new cost of a warsoul weapon and R8 recast items.

Eoria - Harshlands

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Doesn't NW have a participation limit of like 30 people per side? In that case there's still a limit on the amount of tokens being handed out each week.

There are multiple wars going on at one time. i.e. there will be one 20 v 20 fight going on in one territory and another 20 v 20 fight going on in another territory. I assume the number of fights going on at one time is limited only to how many territories there are and how many people participate.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also, maybe you could add the new cost of a warsoul weapon and R8 recast items.

ok...

Flare - Heavens Tear

Wow...10k manufacture fee for 1 rapture or 5 uncanny with 1 supply token...so much for nirvana weapons and armor...b:byeb:cry

Bashmaster - Raging Tide

So, you can recast r8 with NW tokens... thats cool o,..,o now I won't need to farm shizzle for my psy, just r8r all teh way b:laugh

Nahktuul - Archosaur

Whats the big deal? Is it really so bad that the F2P base gets a chance to be on the same playing field as the CS'rs? I think it is fantastic, personally.

Great work Asty-poo. I guess we will find out more after this weekend!

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

i guess well know for sure in a couple days, but do all the token crafted mats appear tradable? and is there a different item code for the crafted nirvana mats from the regular nirvana drops?

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear

Nahktuul - Archosaur wrote: »

Whats the big deal? Is it really so bad that the F2P base gets a chance to be on the same playing field as the CS'rs? I think it is fantastic, personally.

Great work Asty-poo. I guess we will find out more after this weekend!

Same here, I'm just not holding my breath on the amount of tokens per NW just yet.

Flare - Heavens Tear

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i guess well know for sure in a couple days, but do all the token crafted mats appear tradable? and is there a different item code for the crafted nirvana mats from the regular nirvana drops?

Yeah... I was wondering about that too. If regular nirvana drops fall to nearly nothing due to tradable 10k manufacture fee supply token nirvana mats, then even F2P income is destroyed, so nirvana mats being cheap wouldn't help the F2P much. TT mats already low enough as is these days....b:cry

Toomaga - Heavens Tear

So assuming that NW drops a fair share amount of supply tokens per war, does this mean that Rank 8 recast will be much cheaper or easier to obtain? If so I think I really will continue my rank 8 recast weapon project while doing stage 3 nirvana on the sideb:chuckle.

Longknife - Harshlands

"Oops, I broke ur economy. Sorry."

Signed,
The Developers

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary

Nahktuul - Archosaur wrote: »

Whats the big deal? Is it really so bad that the F2P base gets a chance to be on the same playing field as the CS'rs? I think it is fantastic, personally.

Great work Asty-poo. I guess we will find out more after this weekend!

Genius,how you gonna get the money if they destroy Nirvana market?
You may even get a full nirvana set....but then what?, no money for refining or sharding,how WE gonna get the money if the last decently profitable instance its being destroyed?

Everything left on the F2P side will be merchants....GL with that.

Flare - Heavens Tear

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »

Genius,how you gonna get the money if they destroy Nirvana market?
You may even get a full nirvana set....but then what?, no money for refining or sharding,how WE gonna get the money if the last decently profitable instance its being destroyed?

Everything left on the F2P side will be merchants....GL with that.

Nice, you explained the situation better than I did for when nirvana goes off the cliff.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »

Genius,how you gonna get the money if they destroy Nirvana market?
You may even get a full nirvana set....but then what?, no money for refining or sharding,how WE gonna get the money if the last decently profitable instance its being destroyed?

Everything left on the F2P side will be merchants....GL with that.

There are tons of other farmable instances besides Nirv: AEU, Lunar, Warsong, TT, Trials.
Nirv is honestly a very poorly designed instance. No mobs at all, takes 4 minutes to finish, no difficulty, and is dominated by 1 or 2 classes.
People aren't even taking clerics or barbs into it. It's awful, boring, and unbalanced. It should have been replaced long ago.

I really do hope it becomes obsolete because it dominates other end game content way too much.

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

There are tons of other farmable instances besides Nirv: AEU, Lunar, Warsong, TT, Trials.
Nirv is honestly a very poorly designed instance. No mobs at all, takes 4 minutes to finish, no difficulty, and is dominated by 1 or 2 classes.
People aren't even taking clerics or barbs into it. It's awful, boring, and unbalanced. It should have been replaced long ago.

I really do hope it becomes obsolete because it dominates other end game content way too much.

AEU = Limited to 6 run a week and with very unlikely prizes(I did myself over 30 times and no books at all)
TT = Dead
Trials = Only if you're in a very dedicated faction (What if,for example,you prefer to stay in faction for people and not for money)
Warsong = Manufacturing service isn't as popular as some people think, I myself won't trust 99% of people out there,unless you're popular among your server hardly you will find someone that would trust you your weapon/armor.
Lunar = Maybe with 2x drops its worth it with a dedicated squad, but explain how a new player without even R8(barely G12 morai gears), its gonna be accepted on such an instance,that actually requires equipment a lot better than some lame G12/TT90/99

Same concept for Lunar applies for Vana,with the only difference that you can succesfully run Vana with low geared toons while Warsong/Lunar are for actually decently geared people.

I can farm up to 30M a day with Nirvana on 2x,and without needed of luck (AEU books or gold drops in TT requires quite some added luck),it takes a lot longer to run just a single Lunar/Warsong run and the profits aren't really comparable.

Again,if you're a new player,you got nothing to do but either be a merchant or some life-less nerd. Good luck with that.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »

AEU = Limited to 6 run a week and with very unlikely prizes(I did myself over 30 times and no books at all)
TT = Dead
Trials = Only if you're in a very dedicated faction (What if,for example,you prefer to stay in faction for people and not for money)
Warsong = Manufacturing service isn't as popular as some people think, I myself won't trust 99% of people out there,unless you're popular among your server hardly you will find someone that would trust you your weapon/armor.
Lunar = Maybe with 2x drops its worth it with a dedicated squad, but explain how a new player without even R8(barely G12 morai gears), its gonna be accepted on such an instance,that actually requires equipment a lot better than some lame G12/TT90/99

Same concept for Lunar applies for Vana,with the only difference that you can succesfully run Vana with low geared toons while Warsong/Lunar are for actually decently geared people.

Just because you're addicting to aps twitching on easy-mode bosses does not mean all the other content out there is bad. Nirvana shouldn't dominate all other end game content. It makes the game too 1 dimensional.

MagicEmpress - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Our version of the expansion has a surprisingly different set of forges than what we saw in PWCN. While we don't get their R9 third cast set we do get a lot of good upgrade options for other gear.

Everything is made either directly or indirectly from Supply Tokens which are awarded through Nation Wars.
Supply Tokens can't be traded but 50 can be used to make a Seal of War which is tradeable and needed for all the upgrade options.

Nation War Supply Token Costs

You can see the total Supply Token / Coin costs in the blue column. I've also included the total coin costs for a wide range of possible Supply Token market values in the purple column. It's a little hard to say what the actual market value of Supply Tokens will be at the moment but the costs assuming a market value of 1m per Supply Token seem likely.

Over all I'm pretty happy with our forges as they seem much more well suited to our version of the game. If you worked out this math on the PWCN forges the manufacturing fees were all in the 10s of billions of coin.

You can make R8 recast mat from supply tokens?
At what forge?

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary

You are assuming the market will break, but this is only true if ppl can get alot of tokens per NW and that they aren't using it for anything else besides say...new recasts and warsoul. If ppl are gathering the tokens for recast there will be a premium which could drive the token up to 1 mill or higher each. Rap and canny prices may drop a bit but not that major.

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just because you're addicting to aps twitching on easy-mode bosses does not mean all the other content out there is bad. Nirvana shouldn't dominate all other end game content. It makes the game too 1 dimensional.

And you completely avoid any selective response to my post,you just throw in a stereotype/generalization on me. Nice way to sound smart without having an argument.

I recently levelled a veno to 100,went to a BH Metal squad who was *surprise* not geared well enough DD wise to kill the boss fast enough,needless to say,we were wiped.

My Veno had Demon Purge,reduced cooldown,spammed it,bosses rebuffed after like 3-4 seconds, completely useless. There's no real tactic to take down some bosses in this game other than "brute force" aka kill it in 30 seconds before he can even fight back,works wonders on your awesome +10/12 weapons, but doesn't help a **** for the lower people.

There is no strategies, no tactics, just brute force, or maybe you have a brillant way to take down Adv. bosses in Warsong/Lunar with a crappy G12 squad?

MagicEmpress - Lost City

And where can you get these supply tokens and can they be account stashed?
They aren't the the PWI Database yet.... b:cry

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary

There's an HUGE gap between lv.99 and lv.100 in this game, no mid-equips, the gap in difficulty on instances its just immense, new players that can't afford to buy directly anything close to Nirvana/R8/9 are screwed,and they keep increasing the difficulty of the lv.100+ stuff to make the gap even more impossible to compensate.

Nirvana was an EASY instance because it was SUPPOSED to give mid-bad geared people a chance to farm money and equips to take on harder instances. If you kill Nirvana, you destroy the bridge that leads mid-bad geared players to harder instances that actually requires a bit more of gear.

Longknife - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just because you're addicting to aps twitching on easy-mode bosses does not mean all the other content out there is bad. Nirvana shouldn't dominate all other end game content. It makes the game too 1 dimensional.

No, he's absolutely right.

The problem is that farmers need an instance to farm where they receive drops of reasonable value to sell in order to buy gold and gold-related items. Until now, that's been Nirvana.

What drop does AEU offer that can be sold?
TT did have drops, but it's been farmed hard enough that very few of them still hold value.
What items does Warsong offer to farm (that are tradeable)?
What items does Lunar offer that are appealing, when TT is 1000 times cheaper and still earns you 3rd recast?

The thing Nirvana did right was that it literally demanded a crapton of raptures and cannies before your gear was "complete." It was a high enough value that no matter how many people farmed, it was never enough, so the price of nirvana items remained stable for...literally years. Even as nirvana 2nd recast became increasingly common, the demand stayed because 2nd recast r9 required thousands of the damned things.

None of those instances offer a farmable item that will remain stable in price. There's not enough demand on any of them, or in TT's case, there's more than enough supply.


But now there's nothing with seemingly infinite demand remaining. A lot of people have a TT99 or nirvana set already, AEU is very slow-going and not reliable long-term as a farming source (only one book needed per player and only one transaction per book drop...), Warsong is more-or-less a self-farmed instance with little transactions and lunar is the posh cousin of TT that no one in their right mind would farm given the alternative.


A healthy economy requires cash flow; that cash is constantly moving and changing hands. While yes, there are always ways to provide cash flow, there's no way in hell that ANY of those instances can keep cash flowing as quickly. All of your alternatives are short-term solutions that can very quickly be farmed dry. Thus the economy of each server is about to crash into a wall.