Not your average sage vs demon

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

so i recently rolled an archer on LC and i'm trying to decide between sage or demon. I've always played demon archers on other servers, but i know a few people who are sage and love it. normally i would go demon and say *** it but w/ the new skill changes sage seems kind of viable.

My question is w/ the quickshot skill change to crit bonus is sage going to not be underpowered w/o godly gear. The playstyle seems like something i would enjoy even htough i've always played demon. smoother lightning chain, longer stun, bv kind of cancels sta(2% isn't a huge difference),more range(at a max range fight), aim low has a seal proc which doesnt seem bad.

I just wanna hear what some sages have to say about the skill change and maybe some demon inputs who are thinking of going sage.

Sorry for another sage/demon thread, it sort of is and sort of isn't

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

I just felt like it was important to say that most archers who are sage love it, but this does not mean they love it because it is better.
Most of them just have this great ideal of sage in their head, more than actually being a sage archer they like to be able to say "I'm a proud sage archer". Lots of them just like the idea of being uncommon/rare/different..."special", if you will. Basically, it's like being vegan...or owning an apple computer.

So if you ask a sage archer how it is being sage, "OH I LOVE IT!" w/out given valid reasons to love it should be an expected response. After all, they have loved it since before these changes were announced. It probably shouldn't be taken as a reason to consider sage.

BUT, this is not to say that the changes wont help sage greatly. I've asked fellow archers in game if they could see themselves going sage; some said probably, others noted it would be more viable but still "no", and one said no because then he wouldn't be able to ridicule sage archers. it'll definitely be a lot more viable after the changes, but it still lacks some of the offensive perks of demon. At this point , the change is regarded as bringing sages further up, but still not to a place where they surpass demon.

20% crit is tempting to me ofc, and an archer can definitely fantasize about it, but I don't think it's worth the exchange. I'd have to give up my own QS when I already have respectable crit boosts as a demon.

That being said, it's really up to you. If you already have demon archers and want to try sage for ****s and giggles the changes will just be an added perk when they come here... assuming that they will.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

Normally i would say, *** it i'll go sage. But i just rerolled servers to LC and it's my only character on the server. So i'm still debating. w/ awaken cooldown being changed also chi shouldnt really be a problem in tw as a demon archer.

stun arrow which is used almost on cooldown also sta for crit boosts, w/ demon quickshot proc is still pretty OP so idk. i'll probably just stick w/ demon but sage does "look" like a decent culti choice as far dph is concerned though i'm not sure of hte damage difference between teh 2

Decus - Dreamweaver

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Basically, it's like being vegan...or owning an apple computer.

I've never looked at it that way before. Suddenly, everything about sages makes way more sense.



I'd say go sage, tbh. Not so much due to skill changes, but making a demon archer again (to me) would be really boring, even on a new server.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

I'm sage (also hate vegans and apple stuff, but that's besides the point).

Sage has always been more of a support/teamwork kind of thing. Chi is fun. Demon totally has more dps for sure. Sage getting buffs is nice but wasn't necessary. Mainly you enjoy the long stun and tons of free chi to use on stuff like spam alacrity BoAs or something like that. Wingspan nerf sucks pretty hard, but its whatever.

It is still mostly a gear thing. Archer is archer. Culti isn't too important if your gear is bad. If your gear is superior to most (r9/+10 t3), you don't need to worry about culti either.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

well the other archers that are demon i "inherited" if you know what i mean. so i just kind of learned to play them the best that i could. when i look at sage skills i can just see them working together better to provide more chi and slightly more flowing metal comos. demon qs>stun or stun>demon qs isn't all that fun to me. At the same time, sages will use almost that same combo so it really isn't a deciding factor.

My main problem is that there are no "real" reasons for going sage. it just kind of looks better on paper

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Yeah, its basically the same combos. If I had to guess my most used skills are probably Stun by a mile, LS, QS for chi gain, STA, and BoA. TS and TB get a lot of use though. And I probably Aim Low alot in pve/TW, but that may be a playstyle kind of thing.


Sages use stuff like Aim Low/Shell/WoG/EA more since you can Master Li every minute. STA advantage is kinda negated from BV like you said. Cultis look pretty balanced to me now once Dyna expansion kicks in. Demon still seems to have more dps though, as it should.

Demons can have great claw aps with much lesser gear though, which is a + for them. And Demon spark/QS also helps increase dps. Similarly geared Demon archers should out dps sages with just spark, extra crits and QS.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Why play archer again? I'd say play a veno, wiz, or even cleric. I'd imagine a well geared cleric to be really fun.

Qis - Heavens Tear

I say flip a coin, because both quickshot procs have a 50% chance of succeeding.

Shut up my logic is infallible.

And I posted from the wrong account but whatever.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why play archer again? I'd say play a veno, wiz, or even cleric. I'd imagine a well geared cleric to be really fun.

i can't stand veno, i suck at cleric, i have a r9+12 wiz on harshlands that i've had for over a year now lol so not rolling mage again. I honestly just enjoy archer playstyle enough, to me its kind of "haha you missed me, i resisted your zomgwtfbbqpwn skill, etc...". I've never really geared an archer up to be super competitive, just like -int gear w/ 2nd cast bracers/boots for hp/defenses and r8. was fun for lower geared pvp but r9's just kind of sneezed at it.

Also, full 3rd tier nirvana has higher defenses then r9 and if you go xbow you end up w/ like 27k high end damage and 10 less atk lvls. w/ r9 its like 22k high end but you get purge. Which would you go if you were just starting out on a new server? It's pretty similar to Eoria's thread about her archer.

Thunderbow - Momaganon

Qis - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I say flip a coin, because both quickshot procs have a 50% chance of succeeding.

Shut up my logic is infallible.

And I posted from the wrong account but whatever.

sage has a 100% proc

kawaiijen

I picked sage not because as blood rain said and probably some do. But because I liked how the sage skill tree fit my play style for TW back in the day and it still does. I was constantly needing chi so Li's Tech was a nice little buff to go with the chi apoth which allowed me to spam a BoA every 2mins easily. I enjoyed the longer stun time I got as well as the slight range advantage on every other class. Yes it's not that big of a deal but I personally felt I was able to get the first shot off from kiting the demon archer and being able to cast first. Sage quickshot for the extra crit will definitely be a nice little extra boost to the sage arsenal. The difference between the 2 culti's makes only little difference and until you have endgame gear do you notice sage to have a slightly higher damage output, though it's not as much as people think. (You can easily see for yourself in the pwcalc).

On a side note, I see a lack of STA in TW. Not saying specifically for sage, but the HP reduction is applied first then the damage output is applied after. I know demons use it for their crit proc, but there are instances where there are a bunch of players grouped up and it would be more beneficial to the faction rather then 1 person.

And a slightly unrelated note. The extra range for sages put you out of 99% of Bosses AoE's so when I was doing world bosses and other instances with my faction I was a more beneficial DD class because I wouldn't die, but in this day with all the gear and nothing being hard anymore that point is kinda moot. (Also a now useless reason I went sage)

Thunderbow - Momaganon wrote: »

sage has a 100% proc

^ This

deadwieght

i went sage because of stormrage eagle, then i found out the skill description wasnt accurate. the added chi is prolly the best part of being sage. with cloud eruption and the chi skill i can BoA in TW just about anytime i want. another good bonus is the 3 spark damage reduction, im 5 aps and when i farm every little bit of added defence is helpful. frost arrow is also handy in TW. the water damage i find is better then the wood damge from demon on vicious.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

i'm still debating between the culti's, but all the info has definitely been helpful. I'm really thinking about going sage, my only worry is that i'm used ot demon kill power and sage will really be lacking it. A crit is a crit though i guess and that's usually what how i kill things anyways.

kawaiijen

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

i'm still debating between the culti's, but all the info has definitely been helpful. I'm really thinking about going sage, my only worry is that i'm used ot demon kill power and sage will really be lacking it. A crit is a crit though i guess and that's usually what how i kill things anyways.

The thing going for demon is their crit and aps proc. Now of course the STA/Stun always gives you that cirt proc but QS is a 50/50 and not only that, it's a circumstantial skill. There are cases where that's not the most effective approach as well as there are cases where your target is long gone or already in your face stunlocking you. And in the near future sage will have a better crit proc so the only difference at that point will be the QS proc for demon. Granted when both of those procs are active demons bring more firepower to the table then sage. But I don't see that TOO often, besides occasionally in TW. And in most TW's lately you're either going to be 1-2 shotting most people anyways and only running into a few threats, or you're looking at going up against full decked up people which without purge you probably aren't going to kill anyways.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

well in my experience playing archer. if i have surprise on my side(not being noticed) i open w/ sta on everything and on some AA's an sta crit will just one shot them followed by qs for proc then stun arrow. obviously AA's and some La's are liek the only classes i use that combo on. being full interval gear it works to kill most things around my gear level and even some of the non+10 r9's.

i'm thinking that sage more fits my style of harder hits and waiting for a good crit to kill something. That metal combo needs the crits most of the time to kill someone lol. The extra chi is never a bad thing either. I think i'm going to go sage, but i have a ways to go before i get there. One more irrelevent question, why do r9 archers go pdef cube neck and refine their rings, then all auto attack each other instead of metal combos?

kawaiijen

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

well in my experience playing archer. if i have surprise on my side(not being noticed) i open w/ sta on everything and on some AA's an sta crit will just one shot them followed by qs for proc then stun arrow. obviously AA's and some La's are liek the only classes i use that combo on. being full interval gear it works to kill most things around my gear level and even some of the non+10 r9's.

i'm thinking that sage more fits my style of harder hits and waiting for a good crit to kill something. That metal combo needs the crits most of the time to kill someone lol. The extra chi is never a bad thing either. I think i'm going to go sage, but i have a ways to go before i get there. One more irrelevent question, why do r9 archers go pdef cube neck and refine their rings, then all auto attack each other instead of metal combos?

Well demons DPS is still higher using auto attack then metal even with the defense adds because of the QS proc. I rely more heavily on my metal skills personally, though sometimes I try to poke them to purge first or until their charm ticks and then metal them up and for the lulz I'll frost last for the water damage if needed.

witniss

depending on what class i may spam qs and take aim

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

Thanks for the insight kawaii, like i said i think i'm going to go sage when i get there. Also, is it better to just go pdef cube neck for the extra defense against melees then use mdef charms against mages. or to use an mdef cube neck and use both pdef/mdef charms

kawaiijen

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

Thanks for the insight kawaii, like i said i think i'm going to go sage when i get there. Also, is it better to just go pdef cube neck for the extra defense against melees then use mdef charms against mages. or to use an mdef cube neck and use both pdef/mdef charms

Circumstantial I suppose. I roll a PDEF necklace because despite the vast number of R9 Arcanes on my server I feel more threatened overall from the Physical classes. TBH I can't personally see much value in a Pdef charm for the exception of high DPH hits such as Arma from a Barb because I feel it's a waste personally in most cases when it's probably a sin wailing on you.

I'm Stacked with Pdef and use Mdef charms as needed, You have to be careful though because a poor use of it will result in you dieing usually. Been a few times I had it wasted from a Wizard using Undine and then their BT annihilated me for a 25k crit.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

I just felt like it was important to say that most archers who are sage love it, but this does not mean they love it because it is better.

Its also equally important to point out that most of the archers who are sage doesn't have the gears to take advantage of what little "advantage" that sage has to offer.

Sint - Harshlands

deadwieght wrote: »

i went sage because of stormrage eagle, then i found out the skill description wasnt accurate. the added chi is prolly the best part of being sage. with cloud eruption and the chi skill i can BoA in TW just about anytime i want. another good bonus is the 3 spark damage reduction, im 5 aps and when i farm every little bit of added defence is helpful. frost arrow is also handy in TW. the water damage i find is better then the wood damge from demon on vicious.

Stormrage... really? IDR how they messed the description up, but it can't have been bad enough to make you want to cast a two spark DoT.

Demon archers get to CE too. That's 2/3 ~ 3/4 of your argument gone.

Nobody uses vicious.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

well in my experience playing archer. if i have surprise on my side(not being noticed) i open w/ sta on everything and on some AA's an sta crit will just one shot them followed by qs for proc then stun arrow. obviously AA's and some La's are liek the only classes i use that combo on. being full interval gear it works to kill most things around my gear level and even some of the non+10 r9's.

i'm thinking that sage more fits my style of harder hits and waiting for a good crit to kill something. That metal combo needs the crits most of the time to kill someone lol. The extra chi is never a bad thing either. I think i'm going to go sage, but i have a ways to go before i get there. One more irrelevent question, why do r9 archers go pdef cube neck and refine their rings, then all auto attack each other instead of metal combos?

You're going to need crits to kill a lot of people if you play any kind of archer. Demons are just more likely to get them.

For your question on pdmg: we use pdef because sins, bms and other archers are more abundant and more dangerous than mages if they catch you unaware. We use physical dmg because the average aps on metal is about .5, whereas most archers have about .85 on phys, even without quickshot. you'll deal dmg faster if you use phys, unless the other guy's defs are warped enough to make metal hit him 70% harder, or unless you can bypass/1shot with metal while you can't with phys.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

I see your point, and the only reason i'm really considering sage is because i've played a few other demon archers and sage quickshot is getting buffed for the extra crit. And w/ todays gears, crit rate isn't as much the problem as relying on a purge. i could see the extra crit rate really being handy on very geared mages/barbs and other archers. but i think sage crit rate will do ok against everything else.

I understand what you mean about stacking pdef, i just wanted to make sure that was the reason that i see a lot of archers doing it. Wanted to make sure they weren't being stupid :P

This is basically the build i'm going for http://pwcalc.com/b3ad0ff5b53cbf21, i'm still debating on pdef/mdef cube neck. 4% more magic damage reduction w/ mdef neck. 3% more phys damage reduction w/ pdef neck. i'm leaning towards 2nd stage pdef neck for pvp and a first stage mdef neck if im fighting mainly AA's

kawaiijen

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Stormrage... really? IDR how they messed the description up, but it can't have been bad enough to make you want to cast a two spark DoT.

Demon archers get to CE too. That's 2/3 ~ 3/4 of your argument gone.

Nobody uses vicious.





You're going to need crits to kill a lot of people if you play any kind of archer. Demons are just more likely to get them.

For your question on pdmg: we use pdef because sins, bms and other archers are more abundant and more dangerous than mages if they catch you unaware. We use physical dmg because the average aps on metal is about .5, whereas most archers have about .85 on phys, even without quickshot. you'll deal dmg faster if you use phys, unless the other guy's defs are warped enough to make metal hit him 70% harder, or unless you can bypass/1shot with metal while you can't with phys.

Stormrage USED to say Defense reduction 20% for Sage before I found out it didn't and reported it and they updated the tooltip as well as a few other sage skills I had to have them update. Regarding crit I got 44% crit rate as sage with a base buff. Demon get's upwards MAYBE 50% with stun / sta proc. 6% really isn't a factor. The biggest thing is purge which unless your target is standing there taking a qs proc'd attack from you there's really no difference between the two cultivation's anymore. Not to mention our sage qs will be far superior to your crit rate after the expansion. We also have more range and a longer stun duration on our targets then you.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

I see your point, and the only reason i'm really considering sage is because i've played a few other demon archers and sage quickshot is getting buffed for the extra crit. And w/ todays gears, crit rate isn't as much the problem as relying on a purge. i could see the extra crit rate really being handy on very geared mages/barbs and other archers. but i think sage crit rate will do ok against everything else.

I understand what you mean about stacking pdef, i just wanted to make sure that was the reason that i see a lot of archers doing it. Wanted to make sure they weren't being stupid :P

This is basically the build i'm going for http://pwcalc.com/b3ad0ff5b53cbf21, i'm still debating on pdef/mdef cube neck. 4% more magic damage reduction w/ mdef neck. 3% more phys damage reduction w/ pdef neck. i'm leaning towards 2nd stage pdef neck for pvp and a first stage mdef neck if im fighting mainly AA's

Stack Pdef and then get 67% Magic damage reduction charms. And if you really feel the need for another magical necklace then get 2 different ones. I've personally never needed one or regretted stacking pdef.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

isnt it lunar trophy mode for the 67% charms?

kawaiijen

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

isnt it lunar trophy mode for the 67% charms?

Correct silver medals for 80 or bronze medals for 60.

TheDan - Sanctuary

KawaiiJen wrote: »

Correct silver medals for 80 or bronze medals for 60.

I have quite a collection of those charms, but I'm too conservative to actually use them because they're annoying to farm.

I'd probably actually end up selling them instead for profit, lol.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

You know what is a good crit buff that both cultivations have access to now? Galvanic Aura. /critargument.

@Sint: Sages don't need CE to BoA quite often in TW. Most will get Master Li's on an internal timer to cast in between combat so that you are nearly always at full chi. Then there is awaken. And apoth. And of course there is also CE if you chose to have it.

@Nurfed: I personally prefer mag orns. I debated stacking full M def for TW purposes since I mostly combat casters on my server and survive sins/other archers with genie/apoth use (lol bms arent a problem), but I thought my p def was too low. I am rocking a SoF, Map 4 ele belt and a P def cube neck. Going on full g15 (Eventually g16) now and my defenses are pretty even with a slight edge to m def (1%).

And also, once again. The best thing about being sage is the long stun (extra 1.5 secs does help) and of course master li's.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

If i wasn't going full r9 I would probably just use 2 sky covers for pdef and mdef neck/belt or I would at least have 1 mdef orn. Since I am aiming for r9 it limits my choices down quite a bit. I may end up still using 2 sky covers, but for now just one and r9 ring for def lvl will do.

kawaiijen

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

If i wasn't going full r9 I would probably just use 2 sky covers for pdef and mdef neck/belt or I would at least have 1 mdef orn. Since I am aiming for r9 it limits my choices down quite a bit. I may end up still using 2 sky covers, but for now just one and r9 ring for def lvl will do.

This is what I did. Mdef charms covered the lack of Mdef. (And yes I'm Vit because I didn't know any better when those gems came out and didn't know how good JoSD were and too lazy to resocket it all now since I'm retiring for another PWE title next month)

http://www.pwcalc.com/dee4ef29ce8192b3

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

Thats basically what i'm planning on doing, full vits are 1/3 price of full josd. Josd aren't 3x as effective either