Wizard Skill Changes

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

most of what i've seen has been a smaller map then tw. couldnt really see how many numbers were fighitng. from what i've been able to look up/find its like dominion on LoL. there is another territory map based around 4 "kingdoms" lots of lands. seems to be a lot of battles that go on at once but im not sure at all. cn got the beta version on september 6. so we will prolly be 3-5 months. we may hear about it officially in a few months then get to wait a few more before they bring teh expansion over

Burnout - Harshlands

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

so is this server vs server going to be like world vs world of a certain game?



i bet they mess this up again XD
or make it ultra expansive

This stuff shouldn't really be hard anymore for them to do, so I'd be surprised if PWI doesn't do it. Then again maybe I shouldn't be surprised since it's pwi...

Regardless, The biggest change from expansion won't be skills, but the new easier to get gears. The R9 S3 mats can be gotten from pvp, and with refine-able rings and belts that both give high p. def and m. def should really dull sin APS and archer dps. This will automatically make server vs server popular since it gives "free" gears for doing it.

The best thing about it is that the ring will be almost free if you have R9, since all it needs is mats from pvp. Wizards and mystics will both get a HUGE p. def boost from it due to our shields, and it will also make vit stones and JoSD a LOT better than they are now, since it shores up their main weakness - lack of p. def. Garnet shards might lose their edge over JoSD vs phy damage though, which kinda defeats the purpose of sharding (if JoSD and vit stones are *always* better what's the point?).

I actually ran a few simulations with the high p. def gained from refineable rings/belt, and vit stones definitely come very close to garnets w/ the new R9 stats. 15k for vit vs 17k for garnets w/ cleric buffs. Close enough that it's worth it to give up ~2k to gain almost as much magic survivability as JoSD.

JoSD in turn goes from being a bit weak vs archers and R9 DoT'ed sins to flat out being better in all aspects.

Now I'm just hoping they have a half-decent refine sale before expansion...with refined rings and neck I can cut physical damage by almost half while also increasing my hp by ~3k...waaay too many R9 +12 sins out now and +10 armors struggle to keep up b:angry. Then after expansion the loads of p. def on just about everything + purify proc should really gimp sins.


... Hey, this thread is now almost back on topic again!

Eoria - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Stuff

The number of people that will even get to that point gear-wise per server can be counted on one hand. I mean, I'm sure a number of people will probably go for the new r9 ring if it's easy enough to get (I know I'm thinking about it myself, for instance). But the only way more people will go beyond that to the r9 3rd cast puri wep is if they either A. put summerwind tokens in the CS or introduce the NPC to make them with tokens (this is probably going to eventually happen anyway) or B. drastically reduce the number of cannies/raps needed. Also need to straight up take out chienkun cost as well.

Burnout - Harshlands

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

The number of people that will even get to that point gear-wise per server can be counted on one hand. I mean, I'm sure a number of people will probably go for the new r9 ring if it's easy enough to get (I know I'm thinking about it myself, for instance). But the only way more people will go beyond that to the r9 3rd cast puri wep is if they either A. put summerwind tokens in the CS or introduce the NPC to make them with tokens (this is probably going to eventually happen anyway) or B. drastically reduce the number of cannies/raps needed. Also need to straight up take out chienkun cost as well.

Pretty sure this is kinda assumed. Not even PWI is dumb enough to think anyone would care about the expansion if they don't make S2 recast feasible.

As is it's 3400 gold just to recast, and another ~1-2k gold just to transfer refines/sockets/etc. So we're talking 5k+ gold.

Not even the big merchants can afford that. I'm not gonna merchant for 3+ years just to get a new tier of gears for a dying game. reduce that by 75% though, and it becomes farmable/merchantable.

Edit: I mean think about it, Jekel, Chaosbeibei, and FairyYx alone will give PWI $15000. That's just on one of the poorer servers. LC/sanc have even more. Would you give up $50000+ when you can just wait and lower prices later since no one cares about recast until expansion comes out? I don't blame PWI at all if people are willing to spend that much to get gear 2 months early. It also keeps the economy healthier with the massive gold infusion and makes raps/cannies worth more for free players.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

5aps r9 zerk sage assasins

Burnout - Harshlands

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

5aps r9 zerk sage assasins

You underestimate what an extra 2500 p. def can do to phy. damage. Also those 5 aps sins have to go up against purify, 135 attack levels, and an extra -26% channel/5% crit, in basically old nirvana gears.

GL with that.

China's gotten a lot right, so I'm wondering why the US version is so unbalanced.

....n/m don't answer that.

Adroit - Lost City

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

You underestimate what an extra 2500 p. def can do to phy. damage. Also those 5 aps sins have to go up against purify, 135 attack levels, and an extra -26% channel/5% crit, in basically old nirvana gears.

GL with that.

China's gotten a lot right, so I'm wondering why the US version is so unbalanced.

....n/m don't answer that.

don't forget they get an additional 100dex from 3rd r9.. that is just stupid crazy good for sins. I'm not sure how everything will play out in the expansion, but I seriously doubt sins are going to lose their status in pvp

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear

On a certain server I sometimes play on,(it has the "old" 3rd cast R9) R9 aps sins are laughed at for anything in PvP. Full R9 JoSD sage sins are now the bandwagon class. Wonder if that will happen hereb:shocked

Burnout - Harshlands

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

don't forget they get an additional 100dex from 3rd r9.. that is just stupid crazy good for sins. I'm not sure how everything will play out in the expansion, but I seriously doubt sins are going to lose their status in pvp

That is just tunnel-vision on what sins get. I have seen purify proc in PvP, and it absolutely destroys sins. I fought a R9 3rd cast cleric for ~15 minutes, and she was basically unkillable solo. I was able to successfully CC her full duration maybe 3 times in that entire 15 minute fight. A r9 archer came in to help me kill her, and I basically gave up any hope of CC'ing her. The free holy path is almost more OP than the CC immune/purify. And my mystic doesn't even have any APS.

R9 armors also get 8 extra def levels, ~1600 extra hp, another extra 5% hp on top of that, and, if you go for the china version of R9, over 2000 p. def just from ring + belt refines alone.

I'm guessing China actually included -1 int on the 3rd cast daggers mainly to keep sins from becoming total liabilities in pvp. Remember that China has released basically 100% anti-aps for the past ~year and a half. -int armor hasn't been updated for over 2 years.

If they have to fight R9 3rd cast arcanes in TT99 orns/2nd recast nirv/R8 gears with no m. def orns, they're basically going to get *****.

Adroit - Lost City

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

That is just tunnel-vision on what sins get. I have seen purify proc in PvP, and it absolutely destroys sins. I fought a R9 3rd cast cleric for ~15 minutes, and she was basically unkillable solo. I was able to successfully CC her full duration maybe 3 times in that entire 15 minute fight. A r9 archer came in to help me kill her, and I basically gave up any hope of CC'ing her. The free holy path is almost more OP than the CC immune/purify. And my mystic doesn't even have any APS.

R9 armors also get 8 extra def levels, ~1600 extra hp, another extra 5% hp on top of that, and, if you go for the china version of R9, over 2000 p. def just from ring + belt refines alone.

I'm guessing China actually included -1 int on the 3rd cast daggers mainly to keep sins from becoming total liabilities in pvp. Remember that China has released basically 100% anti-aps for the past ~year and a half. -int armor hasn't been updated for over 2 years.

If they have to fight R9 3rd cast arcanes in TT99 orns/2nd recast nirv/R8 gears with no m. def orns, they're basically going to get *****.

I'm aware that 3rd r9 is amazing for wizzies too, but I was just saying that don't think sins are going to be cake just because we get some cool things too. I haven't done the math myself, but I was talking to Rinc and he told me that sins get like a 60% boost in damage with 3rd r9.. being that LA has the lowest average resists, the bonus resists on ring and belt are going to be especially useful for them, and ofc all the other interval, hp, atk level, crit etc etc that also comes with 3rd r9. Again, I'm not saying that sins are going to wreck pvp even more than they do now, but I wouldn't discount them either.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

honestly, the gear is very nice looking. It all works in theory like you say, but how many people will actually pay more for upgraded r9 gear. It will prolly end up like r9, a few people at first 6months later a portion of the merchents will start getting it. then eventually in a year or so after release there will be enough mats in circulation for your average guild member to start getting the gear. so sins that hvae always been able to farm mass amounts of coin will buy up the 2nd mat needed for weapon farm teh 1st mat needed for the weapon and will dominate pvp for around 6months til we start catching up in gear w/ ring recast eventually the belt and such.

so yeah, sins will still be top dogs

Burnout - Harshlands

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I'm aware that 3rd r9 is amazing for wizzies too, but I was just saying that don't think sins are going to be cake just because we get some cool things too. I haven't done the math myself, but I was talking to Rinc and he told me that sins get like a 60% boost in damage with 3rd r9.. being that LA has the lowest average resists, the bonus resists on ring and belt are going to be especially useful for them, and ofc all the other interval, hp, atk level, crit etc etc that also comes with 3rd r9. Again, I'm not saying that sins are going to wreck pvp even more than they do now, but I wouldn't discount them either.

Going from +12 catastrophe stinger to +12 adversity is around a ~40-45 % increase in damage, but that's assuming the best case scenario, vs JoSD. It's even lower vs garnets or vit stones.

They can indeed get a "60%" increase if they went with more set peices from R9, but there's no way to get the +100 dex bonus without giving up -.05 int.

The defense gained from refined rings, belts, and new R9 stats is far more than 40%. Having 15 m/s speed and stun immunity up almost every time vs sins is also worth more than a 60% increase in damage.

Also...LA has the exact same average defense as AA. AA is only higher because wiz/mystics have a self 100% p. def buff. Any gains in p. def benefits us more than any gains in m. def benefits sins. Go look at the p. def of psychics. It's horrible compared to LA. That's what "real" AA defense is, yet many people would not consider psychics defense to be "bad". In fact, at +12, it's one of the best in the game for AA.

Purify proc does for us essentially what seal proc does for psychics vs aps-based chars. Big difference though is that sins can't counter purify proc with will surge or AD or IG's.

EDIT: ....don't get me wrong. Sins will still be deadly due to their high DPS and stealth, but a good caster should be able to have a MUCH higher win% vs sins than what they are now. VS good +12 R9 sins, I'd say it's 50/50 right now vs R9 casters. After expansion I expect it to be much higher.

Adroit - Lost City

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Going from +12 catastrophe stinger to +12 adversity is around a ~40-45 % increase in damage, but that's assuming the best case scenario, vs JoSD. It's even lower vs garnets or vit stones.

They can indeed get a "60%" increase if they went with more set peices from R9, but there's no way to get the +100 dex bonus without giving up -.05 int.

The defense gained from refined rings, belts, and new R9 stats is far more than 40%. Having 15 m/s speed and stun immunity up almost every time vs sins is also worth more than a 60% increase in damage.

Also...LA has the exact same average defense as AA. AA is only higher because wiz/mystics have a self 100% p. def buff. Any gains in p. def benefits us more than any gains in m. def benefits sins. Go look at the p. def of psychics. It's horrible compared to LA. That's what "real" AA defense is, yet many people would not consider psychics defense to be "bad". In fact, at +12, it's one of the best in the game for AA.

Purify proc does for us essentially what seal proc does for psychics vs aps-based chars. Big difference though is that sins can't counter purify proc with will surge or AD or IG's.

EDIT: ....don't get me wrong. Sins will still be deadly due to their high DPS and stealth, but a good caster should be able to have a MUCH higher win% vs sins than what they are now. VS good +12 R9 sins, I'd say it's 50/50 right now vs R9 casters. After expansion I expect it to be much higher.

I'm too lazy to check the sin damage increase stats, although I can say that Rinc is really good about getting his math right, and you'd need to show me what you did to convince me that he was wrong. AA actually does have higher average resists over LA, albeit by a small amount (especially with r9 armor, it is almost the same now.. I remember checking older armors and there was actually a more noticeable gap).. but this really isn't the point. AA classes generally have more points in either vit or magic, have self buffs etc which means we generally have higher resists than a sin, so the sin will be loving those extra resists (maybe more than us ). Also when talking about sins, don't forget to think about DPH sins.. I don't know how many you come across on HL, but they are just as much if not more of a threat than aps sins imo (at least the good ones). I just wonder if your opinion of sins would change if you ever 1v1'd Rinc.. he is one scary sin b:cry

Burnout - Harshlands

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I'm too lazy to check the sin damage increase stats, although I can say that Rinc is really good about getting his math right, and you'd need to show me what you did to convince me that he was wrong. AA actually does have higher average resists over LA, albeit by a small amount (especially with r9 armor, it is almost the same now.. I remember checking older armors and there was actually a more noticeable gap).. but this really isn't the point. AA classes generally have more points in either vit or magic, have self buffs etc which means we generally have higher resists than a sin, so the sin will be loving those extra resists (maybe more than us ). Also when talking about sins, don't forget to think about DPH sins.. I don't know how many you come across on HL, but they are just as much if not more of a threat than aps sins imo (at least the good ones). I just wonder if your opinion of sins would change if you ever 1v1'd Rinc.. he is one scary sin b:cry

The difference between +12 adversity and +12 stingers is ~200 phy. attack. Assuming the sin has 450 dex, that's ( 450/150 + 1 ) * 200 = 800 more phy. attack. Masteries will add another 150 phy. attack for 950 total. Assuming the average +12 sin has 11-12k phy attack already it's really not a big boost.

The biggest boost comes from the extra +35 attack levels. Against JoSD it's around a flat 35% damage increase. The 6% extra crit is also around a 5% increase in damage.

Assuming we multiply these damage increases together since PWI stacks this damage that way we get 1.08 * 1.35 * 1.05 = 1.5309.

So against a full-sharded JoSD char the damage increase is 53% approx. For garnet sharded R9's the +35 attk lvls wont matter as much and the extra p. def makes this equation completely different.

That's actually more than my napkin-math estimate of 40-45%. So I guess Rinc and I are somewhere in between . Since his main is a sin I'd guess his numbers are on the "rosy" side while I tend to be a bit more pessimistic.

Burnout - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

The difference between +12 adversity and +12 stingers is ~200 phy. attack. Assuming the sin has 450 dex, that's ( 450/150 + 1 ) * 200 = 800 more phy. attack. Masteries will add another 150 phy. attack for 950 total. Assuming the average +12 sin has 11-12k phy attack already it's really not a big boost.

The biggest boost comes from the extra +35 attack levels. Against JoSD it's around a flat 35% damage increase. The 6% extra crit is also around a 5% increase in damage.

Assuming we multiply these damage increases together since PWI stacks this damage that way we get 1.08 * 1.35 * 1.05 = 1.5309.

So against a full-sharded JoSD char the damage increase is 53% approx. For garnet sharded R9's the +35 attk lvls wont matter as much and the extra p. def makes this equation completely different.

That's actually more than my napkin-math estimate of 40-45%. So I guess Rinc and I are somewhere in between . Since his main is a sin I'd guess his numbers are on the "rosy" side while I tend to be a bit more pessimistic.

Now for the flip side of the equation. Survivability from armors by going from R9 to R9 3rd cast.

Using the pics asterelle posted, I'm going to use some substitutes for p. def. Warsong lock +12 and Sky cover +12 gives a total of 2775 p. def. Since the china belt only has 360 p. def instead of 850, it results in a net gain of 2100 p. def from belt and ring +12. It's safe to assume R9 3rd cast would refine at least as well as these substitutes, if not better.

The robe + pants also gain 400 p. def from stat add-ons. The belt gives an extra 5 def. lvls and attk lvls. (we assume the sin will not use the belt because that would reduce his APS, thus less damage). The boots also give an extra 2% reduce physical damage stat.

Net result: 2500 p. def, and 5 def. lvls.

Now on to HP. The generous hp adds from american 3rd cast are gone. China boots and gloves give a net +240 hp. Now things get a little murky. I dont know how the the extra 5% hp stat from robe works. I will estimate that it adds ~500 hp after refines, shards, etc. We have no idea how much better china +12 refines are. Asterelle says they refine better....but I will just assume that it adds an extra 800 * 1.1 = 880 hp over S1 r9.

net result: 1620 hp.

Plug these gains into Asterelle's survivability calc and we get:

Regular R9

China R9

This results in around a 53% increase in survivability. This is far from an accurate number, since we don't know exact stats and I'm tired of reading chinese, but imo it's a decent, if somewhat pessimistic estimate. These stats are for mystic though. Wizards get an extra +20% p. def bonus over mystics from buffs, so it would be slightly better for wizzies.

By coincidence 53% is the same number I got for dagger damage increase from sins.

There's still one unaccounted factor though: Purify proc, and the -int from china's dags. I have no idea how these will interact with each other in a real world setting. The aps just makes the purify proc faster in pvp, but gives us less reaction time.

Adroit - Lost City

You totally neglected 100dex, which is one of the biggest perks of 3rd r9 for sins. After a quick skim it also appears that you assume that the sins attack level is equal to whatever victim's defense level before 3rd r9, which I'm curious how you arrived at. I'm assuming all the sin calculations here are solely based on normal attacks (don't even mention how a DPH sin would be affected by new gear), and what were the buffs that you were using in these calculations?

Ruvil - Sanctuary

super endgame r999 wiz is the best 1v1 killing class.

r999 barb would be overall best performance 1v1.

**** theory, this is what i've seen/experienced playing as r999 vs r999 (have accounted for player ability or lack of ability as well). purify is broken on JOSD/+12 char, will need to update genie guide to no longer include badge :<

Burnout - Harshlands

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You totally neglected 100dex, which is one of the biggest perks of 3rd r9 for sins. After a quick skim it also appears that you assume that the sins attack level is equal to whatever victim's defense level before 3rd r9, which I'm curious how you arrived at. I'm assuming all the sin calculations here are solely based on normal attacks (don't even mention how a DPH sin would be affected by new gear), and what were the buffs that you were using in these calculations?

To get 100 dex bonus they would lose an equal amount in APS. Dex bonus is at 3 R9 gears, which means they would have to lose at least -1 int, since none of the sin armors have -int on them.

Also...a sin using DPH relies more on lucky zerk crits to kill. This is precisely what we get with Axe BM's and seekers.

I also said at the beginning that I was using a full JoSD char with 90 defense levels. Having vastly more attack levels than defense levels results in diminishing returns, so in my calculations I'm erring on the safe side and underestimating the defense gained. In most cases in real world calcs the survivability gained would probably be better than 53%.

As for buffs...they really don't change it that much. You can play with the buffs on the links on my previous post if you're really that suspicious about how buffs work. The only thing that will change is if you fiddle with the p. def buffs. I assumed self buffs + cleric buffs, which are easy enough to get.

@ruvil - Yes I agree purify is really broken. I've had to fight against it and even as a non aps char it still procs way more than it deserves to proc. It's a huge game changer.

High end barbs have always been extremely strong also. This isn't really a surprise, but wizzies definitely get pretty scary too . (till they get purged, at least).

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

http://youtu.be/fadZA9XUij0?hd=1&t=12m

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

i'd rather argue with bloodmystic, at least he thinks his logic is correct and explains why.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

tldr [and for me to say that, now THAT's something!]


So quit trolling, post a video of how awesome you are at 1v1's or just stop posting about it. Your worse then elijah and bloodmystic combined w/ this stuff. Any added comments that i may have missed? that means you adroit.

So just to sum things up
pvp classes to 1v1 w/ in terms of surviving/getting consistent kills.
Sin
Bm
Barb
archer/wiz/psy
seekers
everything else

etc



C'mon, im not even famous on my own server anymore I've been playing alts so much. Actually had someone inviting me to a faction the other day say "Um, class and level please . . . "

I was like "yes!!!! anonymity!!! at last!!!" And here you are (for the second time I've seen so far) digging me back outta my grave. Stop it, or i shall be forced to hunt you down on my psychic on HL - assuming I ever find you outside of sz . . . .

Your list is close to right, but to put psychics on par with wizards is just silly. Endgame psychic with my gear would be WAY more effective at 1 vs 1, expecially since 90% of the people that pk are sins. Psychic is slightly better than archer imo, but if you want to make them equal with archer i can't quibble much. But wizard is below them both.

And for the second year running, I will again say I am happy to visit pk areas on any of the other servers at any time to see all you "expert" pk wizards walk your talk. The last time, I spent two months straight hunting for you all - asking people in the pk areas on LC, HL, HT, DW, Sanc and RT "hey, you ever see any wizards out here" - and all I got was laughter.