Does Stormrage Eagleon still useless?

laisvis

I think it's very unique skill. Why people don't use it? Use Thunder Shock for reducing Metal resistance then use Stormrage Eagleon which inflicts Metal damage equal to base physical damage and dot 12000 if demon/sage.

Eoria - Harshlands

It's still useless.

DuckTapez - Archosaur

Maybe it wouldn't be if it didn't cost sparks

SpazzMcAps - Harshlands

I read the title as "Does stormrage eagleon still use less?"

truekossy

Using stormrage to deal damage? lol.

12k metal damage over 30 seconds. Since DoTs tick once every 3 seconds that's 10 ticks of 1.2k. Everyone in PK will have at least 50% elemental resist so that's 600 damage per tick for 10 ticks, and this is a best case, after all. Then we take into account the 75% PvP reduction that results in you dealing 150 damage with a DoT every 3 seconds for 30 seconds.

..... By the time anyone with decent gear is in the 90s, 150 damage every 3 seconds doesn't mean **** to them.


Hell, let's assume demon stormrage so it's a 15 second DoT and let's take out their magic defense out of the picture. That's still 12k damage with a 75% PvP reduction that drops it to 3k damage.... and then that damage is dealt over 15 seconds so you have 5 ticks of 600 damage each.

...... OR you could double/triple spark and do far more damage immediately. See, the difference between Stormrage and... say... Tempest is that stormrage turns what could be a potentially devastating skill into a craptastic DoT skill that everyone will laugh at. Considering the DoT itself is set damage and can't crit and the initial damage is an auto-attack in metal damage form (base damage) no way in hell would anyone who has a functional brain blow their sparks on Stormrage if they aren't about to make babies with another female archer, or just **** around in general.

laisvis

truekossy wrote: »

Using stormrage to deal damage? lol.

12k metal damage over 30 seconds. Since DoTs tick once every 3 seconds that's 10 ticks of 1.2k. Everyone in PK will have at least 50% elemental resist so that's 600 damage per tick for 10 ticks, and this is a best case, after all. Then we take into account the 75% PvP reduction that results in you dealing 150 damage with a DoT every 3 seconds for 30 seconds.

..... By the time anyone with decent gear is in the 90s, 150 damage every 3 seconds doesn't mean **** to them.


Hell, let's assume demon stormrage so it's a 15 second DoT and let's take out their magic defense out of the picture. That's still 12k damage with a 75% PvP reduction that drops it to 3k damage.... and then that damage is dealt over 15 seconds so you have 5 ticks of 600 damage each.

...... OR you could double/triple spark and do far more damage immediately. See, the difference between Stormrage and... say... Tempest is that stormrage turns what could be a potentially devastating skill into a craptastic DoT skill that everyone will laugh at. Considering the DoT itself is set damage and can't crit and the initial damage is an auto-attack in metal damage form (base damage) no way in hell would anyone who has a functional brain blow their sparks on Stormrage if they aren't about to make babies with another female archer, or just **** around in general.

But first shot inflicts Metal damage equal to base physical damage and when dot. You calculate only dot damage. And why you forget metal decrease from thunder shock? It doesn't make stronger dot?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

DoTs are bad since they can never crit and don't benefit from attack levels. All archers go for builds with high crit and attack level.

Also it is impossible for a skill with a DoT to purge the target if you have a purge bow.

truekossy

laisvis wrote: »

But first shot inflicts Metal damage equal to base physical damage and when dot. You calculate only dot damage.

truekossy wrote: »

and the initial damage is an auto-attack in metal damage form (base damage)

laisvis wrote: »

And why you forget metal decrease from thunder shock? It doesn't make stronger dot?

truekossy wrote: »

Hell, let's assume demon stormrage so it's a 15 second DoT and let's take out their magic defense out of the picture. That's still 12k damage with a 75% PvP reduction that drops it to 3k damage.... and then that damage is dealt over 15 seconds so you have 5 ticks of 600 damage each.

Someone didn't read my post before responding.

I made a best case for stormrage's metal DoT against an opponent with 0 magic defense using the demon version that deals damage fastes AND covered the initial damage of stormrage as well. Burning 2 sparks for a metal auto-attack when you could use that chi to double (or triple) spark and use the other three metals we have for much better direct damage faster? Not to mention that, as both Asterelle and I have mentioned, the add-on damage can't crit, the fact that the DoT isn't affected by attack levels, and the whole purge thing....

Well... as I've already said, the only points to using stormrage are to impregnate other female archers or for the lulz.

Docpetiot - Sanctuary

Though I usually feel that Stormrage only usefulness is its look, I am wondering if it can't have its use in caster vana, when the 3 other metal skills are on cooldown.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22762050.jpg

truekossy

Docpetiot - Sanctuary wrote: »

Though I usually feel that Stormrage only usefulness is its look, I am wondering if it can't have its use in caster vana, when the 3 other metal skills are on cooldown.

If it weren't with ? bosses where you have that same damage reduction as against players in PK and if it weren't a 2 spark skill then it might have some slight merit (as in it doesn't really have any but we'd be able to simply ignore that most of the time because odds are the boss wouldn't last too long anyways).... but as is you'd still be better to save that chi for sparks if your goal is to deal any damage instead of making the fight last longer.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

The only time I have ever gotten legitimate use out of it is casting it (Sage) on Cannon in a squad without a decent tank.

The chi cost really isn't worth it. Maybe if it did like 4x the damage it does..

Yulk_owns - Lost City

People are forgetting about sage SE... That was never useless.

inb4sagehatersqqingaboutsagestormrage

Slow could be useful though if bosses' HP weren't so high but still. But definitely could prove helpful on kiting elite mobs.

truekossy

You aren't using it for the damage if you find yourself forced to use sage stormrage.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

truekossy wrote: »

You aren't using it for the damage if you find yourself forced to use sage stormrage.

Sage SE is also irrelevant if there is a barb in squad using frighten. Then again, if there is a barb in squad, you probably wouldn't even think about using SE...

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

i feel weird that i havent even learned lvl 1 version on my archer. >.>

laloner

Double the 12K metal damage to 24K due to having led with Thunder Shock. Now we have to determine if this is more damage then what would have been produced by double sparking.

Assuming you get 8 shots into a 12 second double spark using a bow and weapon damage is being tripled due to the spark if your average weapon damage is more than 1K you will do more damage with a double spark. I think all archers over 90 should be averaging more than 1K wep damage.

The numbers would make Stormrage look worse with interval gear and if the 2 sparks were viewed as contributing to a triple spark.

I think Wood mobs have half the metal defense to begin with. If the Thunder Shock reduction stacks with this then you would need average wep damage of over 2K to be better off with a double spark.

I think a 90 level archer with a crossbow attacking a Wood boss might be better off using Stormrage then double sparking. But most often archers would be better off just sparking.

I don't think it matters that Stormrage converts the shot into metal damage and have not included that in the analysis. If all you want is a shot converted to metal damage there are other skills that do that without costing sparks so only the DOT can possibly be a deciding factor.

truekossy

laloner wrote: »

Double the 12K metal damage to 24K due to having led with Thunder Shock

Sorry, but I stopped reading right there.

DoT skills do not work that way. 12k is the absolute maximum that it would do to a mob with 0 magic defense that is at or below your level over that 30 second (or 15 for demon) duration. From that point on, the damage can only go lower since you have to start taking magic defense, level reductions, PvP reductions, etc into account. Considering that an archer in their mid-80s with a +3 bow/crossbow can perform 12k crits on unsparked auto-attacks vs same level mobs regardless of element? Yeah Stormrage not gonna be so useful at all for damage.


As for the rest of your post, your understanding of the game mechanics is horribly off.

laloner wrote: »

Assuming you get 8 shots into a 12 second double spark using a bow and weapon damage is being tripled due to the spark if your average weapon damage is more than 1K you will do more damage with a double spark. I think all archers over 90 should be averaging more than 1K wep damage.

To begin with, what you should have been considering was base physical attack and not weapon damage. Weapon damage is a multiplier for calculating phys attack. Someone with an average weapon damage of 1k is going to be hitting things for a lot more than 1k damage per shot. Hell, a single sparked archer in their 50s will be dealing more than 1k damage per hit to anything at level with 50% or less physical damage reduction. So that essentially means that, disregarding crits, A level 50 archer that can't even double spark will do more damage than stormrage's entire DoT if given the same amount of time, even using your mistaken idea from the start. By level 90 it's not even something worth mentioning since 2 non-crit unsparked auto attacks will deal more damage than stormrage in it's entirety, and even if DoTs worked the way your initial statement assumed, that would change the number of attacks from two to... four. And note that neither of those links included bow mastery, refines, shards, a tome, etc.

laloner wrote: »

I think Wood mobs have half the metal defense to begin with. If the Thunder Shock reduction stacks with this then you would need average wep damage of over 2K to be better off with a double spark.

Reducing someone's defense by 50% does not mean they take double damage. Same with the whole initial elemental defense mobs have. Take, Peachblossom Ritualist as an example. I've replicated its defense with this calc.

Now as you can see for yourself, even though it's weakest resist is a little below half of the strongest resist (in terms of percent), the fact is a wood attack dealing 100 base and a metal attack dealing 100 base will result in 72 damage from the metal and 48 damage from the wood... which amounts to the metal attack doing only 50% more damage instead of the double damage you theorized. Toss in metal debuff and even though the number for defense will drop by 50% (1.6k to 800), the damage reduction percent will not (28% to 16%). So that same metal attack that dealt 72 would now deal 84 damage. About a 16% damage increase even though it is an actual 50% defense reduction. A very large difference from the double damage you were theorizing. While your idea may have been sound if that was how the game worked.... but.... that isn't how the game works.


Basically, even against a wood boss you're not going to be dealing any damage with Stormrage. The slow is handy if you need to slow something immune to our normal way of doing so (frost arrow) for whatever reason and sage is handy if for whatever reason you need to lower a mob's attack power and don't have a Barb or BM in squad with you.... however the fact remains that you will literally never use Stormrage for damage unless you don't have a clue what you're doing.












Edit: You know, it's kind of sad that a thread about Stormrage of all things has been one of the better topics on these forums recently purely by virtue of infodump as opposed to stupid people being well... incredibly stupid and making the archer forum look bad.

shotwhointhewhat

Only way the DoT would be any good in that skill is if they modified it to do x% of your damage over time. Kind of like Take Aim, but over time. That way it remains relevant as characters become more powerful.

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver

Plain and simple...no. by the time you channel and shoot you could shoot 3 normal shots off. Thus not only do you waste 2 sparks, you also do less damage in that time.

Docpetiot - Sanctuary

truekossy wrote: »

If it weren't with ? bosses where you have that same damage reduction as against players in PK and if it weren't a 2 spark skill then it might have some slight merit (as in it doesn't really have any but we'd be able to simply ignore that most of the time because odds are the boss wouldn't last too long anyways).... but as is you'd still be better to save that chi for sparks if your goal is to deal any damage instead of making the fight last longer.

As I said, I was speaking about caster vana bosses, which are physical immune.
So you have to take into consideration:

- 7.4s for a full TS+LS+TB cycle,
- 8s cooldown for TS, meanning 0.6s to fill, and 30 chi required
- the fact that caster bosses got a bad habit to freeze and stun
- normal shot will only have the fire damage
- as demon, I can benefit the 70% fire damage during a whole spark cycle (20s > 15s) but casting blazing arrow is horribly long (3.8s)

Considering those facts, I am not convinced that stormrage is the way to go, but I was wondering if, in this precise situation, it cannot be handy at time.

Edit: With a r9+12 bow, I will not even consider Stormrage handy for a second. I started caster with r8+2, which is +5 now, and the damage I see from normal shot (fire damage) do not convince me.

truekossy

Docpetiot - Sanctuary wrote: »

As I said, I was speaking about caster vana bosses, which are physical immune.
So you have to take into consideration:

- 7.4s for a full TS+LS+TB cycle,
- 8s cooldown for TS, meanning 0.6s to fill, and 30 chi required
- the fact that caster bosses got a bad habit to freeze and stun

These three alone combined with latency, ping, and human reaction time (we aren't perfect machines that can auto-fire our skills instantly, after all) means odds that all your metals will be in cooldown for any large amount of time is slim to none. Especially for sages who don't have the extra cooldown on their lightning strike. Basically, in any event where cooldown is a concern, your skills won't be that way for very long and if you have the two sparks saved up already, why waste them when you can wait half a second? Not to mention that even in any scenario where stormrage is available and your skills have that half a second cooldown, double sparking (which will take more than half a second to perform) is ALSO available which means... you guessed it.... superior use to stormrage!

Docpetiot - Sanctuary wrote: »

- normal shot will only have the fire damage
- as demon, I can benefit the 70% fire damage during a whole spark cycle (20s > 15s) but casting blazing arrow is horribly long (3.8s).

But the fact remains that while autos and physical skills will just use the fire damage, the free wood DoT of vicious arrow will stick thanks to that initial fire damage which means you'll be getting chi from it.... and that chi will contribute to sparks... which will contribute to higher damage than stormrage could hope to give. The blazing arrow thing is great as demon but you really should only bother right before a spark.... mostly because by the time it's done odds are all your metals will be off cooldown so that you can proceed to use them all uninterupted while frenzied or the like.

Docpetiot - Sanctuary wrote: »

Considering those facts, I am not convinced that stormrage is the way to go, but I was wondering if, in this precise situation, it cannot be handy at time.

Edit: With a r9+12 bow, I will not even consider Stormrage handy for a second. I started caster with r8+2, which is +5 now, and the damage I see from normal shot (fire damage) do not convince me.

If it were an at-or below level phys immune mob with no magic defense and you had some sort of 6X or 7X unrefined/unsharded weapon then sure it may be worth it then. Once the mob or weapon in question is anything stronger? Not worth it in the slightest. Considering that the level 5X in the calc I made last page will out-damage stormrage in its entirety, it really wouldn't be worth it. And as your weapon gets stronger, blazing arrow's autos will also easily out-damage Stormrage even on phys immune monsters.

laloner

truekossy wrote: »

Sorry, but I stopped reading right there.

And yet you continue to quote and respond to the rest of my post ...

truekossy wrote: »

As for the rest of your post, your understanding of the game mechanics is horribly off.


To begin with, what you should have been considering was base physical attack and not weapon damage.

No, I should have been considering weapon damage. I was comparing the value of Stormrage to using the two sparks it uses for sparking. Pray tell, what does sparking do? It increases weapon damage by a percentage.

As to the workings of how defense values affect damage I was just trying to quickly go through the numbers to show the OP why it is almost always better to use the two sparks Stormrage consumes for sparking. If you interpreted it as something else than that then its your mistake.

truekossy

laloner wrote: »

And yet you continue to quote and respond to the rest of my post ...

Went back and looked over the rest, hence the edited by portion. :P

laloner wrote: »

No, I should have been considering weapon damage. I was comparing the value of Stormrage to using the two sparks it uses for sparking. Pray tell, what does sparking do? It increases weapon damage by a percentage.

And weapon damage is only a part of the calculation of base physical damage.... which is what you'd want to compare Stomrage's damage to for a real conclusion since if you ignore that in favor of looking at just weapon damage, you'll get a wildly inaccurate result... or need I show you the level 50 archer who has a weapon damage nowhere near 1k and yet with a mere 150% weapon damage boost from single spark was doing what you attributed to an archer with double the weapon damage using a spark that's twice as effective? Have you not noticed that when you single spark your phys attack doesn't increase by exactly 150%? Same with double spark's 300? What of triple spark's 500%? If we were to only compare weapon damage then that would **** over anything you wrote the instant it was brought from theory into practical testing and application. Hence, why I pointed out your flaws in judgement since simply using weapon damage would **** over the results and make things seem far more difficult than they really were.

laloner wrote: »

As to the workings of how defense values affect damage I was just trying to quickly go through the numbers to show the OP why it is almost always better to use the two sparks Stormrage consumes for sparking. If you interpreted it as something else than that then its your mistake.

I essentially agreed that your logic would be sound if that was how the game worked. However, arriving at the right conclusion for the wrong reasons is still a very poor way of doing things that will **** someone over or leave them confused in the long run. It's like saying that a Barb is flying faster than an archer because the Barb is in tiger and not because the archer is using 0.5 m/sec wings while the Barb is using 1.5 m/sec wings. When the archer uses faster wings, your idea would fall flat and leave both parties confused. This is the archer forum and even when we already know the results of things, we still prove the whys so that it becomes easier for everyone else. Yes, I agree that Stormrage is inferior to double sparking. However your reasoning was not sound and full of mistakes... ones which I proceeded to correct.

Ruvil - Sanctuary

3 pages for this? lol

by all means please do continue to use stormrage if you feel that it is worth it, there's no hope saving you anyways.
i love how people are trying to factor in sage stormrage...

d stormrage was only ever useful for 105

truekossy

Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »

for 105 stormrage babies

b:dirty

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

truekossy wrote: »

b:dirty

Like we dont have many already ............

laloner

truekossy wrote: »

And weapon damage is only a part of the calculation of base physical damage.... which is what you'd want to compare Stomrage's damage to for a real conclusion since if you ignore that in favor of looking at just weapon damage, you'll get a wildly inaccurate result...

Double sparking increases weapon damage by 300% and I was comparing the damage of Stormrage to the what could have been done by double sparking instead. I was also looking for a single over/under number that tells you when you will do more damage from double sparking. I stand by using only weapon's damage in determining when a weapon will do more damage from double sparking, we obviously disagree on this.

truekossy

If you don't want to read, scroll to the bottom. If that gets you annoyed, offended, or whatever, look back up and read the post to see the basic math behind it. If you still can't understand after this post then, to be blunt, you're hopeless and a waste of time aside from an attempt to kill boredom.

laloner wrote: »

Double sparking increases weapon damage by 300% and I was comparing the damage of Stormrage to the what could have been done by double sparking instead. I was also looking for a single over/under number that tells you when you will do more damage from double sparking. I stand by using only weapon's damage in determining when a weapon will do more damage from double sparking, we obviously disagree on this.

The problem that I'm trying to explain to you is... damage does not work that way. Let's simplify things and say you have a weapon attack of exactly 500 on an archer with exactly 150 dex and happen to be unsparked and unbuffed.

Using the formula

base damage = attack multiplier * weapon attack

and combining with

attack multiplier = 1 + ( Dex / 150 ) + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs

Since I've simplified it so much. You'll get a base damage = 2*500. That means base damage there is 1000. That means you're dealing 1k damage per hit unsparked, Assuming this is with a bow's 0.67 attacks per second (or roughly 1.5 seconds per attack), that means in 18 seconds you'd do the 12k damage of Stormrage, since you'd need 12 attacks.

Now, if we assume you double spark and add the 300% weapon damage into things, that raises your damage to 2500, that means you'll do the 12k damage in 5 attacks or 7.5 seconds. Why is it only 2500 instead of 3k? Because sparking ALSO does not work that way. It adds the % of boosted weapon damage to your phys attack directly. So it would actually be 2*500+3*500 and not 2*500*3.


Now do you see the point I was making. Your assumption, due to lack of proper knowledge, is way off since double sparked, something with half the weapon attack you proposed was enough to do what you were saying in half the shots. Hell, even single sparked, only half of the weapon damage you were proposing would be required to out-damage Stormrage. Plus it would do so in 7 hits instead of the 8 you were saying. If you were saying total damage, then sure. Even though you'd have still been wrong about how the DoT itself and defense worked, you'd have at least had something right about your post aside from the conclusion. However, as things stand and like I said previously, a correct conclusion for completely incorrect reasons is still as bad as an incorrect conclusion.

For example, let's assume for a second that the first part of this post were right instead of being... ya know.... completely wrong in every way.

laloner wrote: »

I think Wood mobs have half the metal defense to begin with. If the Thunder Shock reduction stacks with this then you would need average wep damage of over 2K to be better off with a double spark.

With 2k weapon damage, and 150 dex, you're looking at 4k damage per hit. Since your original assumption is stormrage dealing 24k in DoT form due to Thunder Shock and that it's getting doubled to 48k on a wood mob, that means that this theoretical 2k weapon damage would need 12 hits to do the damage. 13 if we included stormrage's initial hit. That's the UNSPARKED amount. If it was double sparked, you'd be looking at 10k damage per hit. 5 hits overtakes your superstormrage's DoT. 6 hits overtakes the DoT and initial damage. 9 hits overtakes superstrormage and the initial DoT as well as the damage the someone would do following up with autos during that time.

Then we get to

laloner wrote: »

I think a 90 level archer with a crossbow attacking a Wood boss might be better off using Stormrage then double sparking. But most often archers would be better off just sparking.

A conclusion that's completely wrong based on your completely mistaken idea about how damage works. Had you actually known how damage works or used something aside from "just weapon damage" in a way completely against how the game actually works, you'd have realized that the only times where Stormrage would be of any use.... are times when you can't even have learned stormrage, nor used it if you could have learned it.








tl;dr version: You're completely wrong in all regards except for the conclusion that double sparking beats stormrage. Aside from that, all your theories, reasoning, numbers, and the like are completely wrong. This is a fact supported by how the game actually works and not a matter of opinion.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Stormrage's unattractiveness mainly comes from the cost. It would be useful for wasting people's Holy Paths and sprints in large fights, but 2 sparks is too much of a cost for something like that. The opportunity cost is obviously Barrage.

If it were improved in one or many of the following ways, it would be a skill worth considering in certain situations:

AOE
cost 1 spark
not countered by Holy Path, Sprints, etc (inflicts archer stealth's ms reduction)
did Soulforce in damage over time
80+% slow

truekossy

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

If it were improved in one or many of the following ways, it would be a skill worth considering in certain situations:

AOE
cost 1 spark
not countered by Holy Path, Sprints, etc (inflicts archer stealth's ms reduction)
did Soulforce in damage over time
80+% slow
was not a damage over time skill

b:cute