very typical sin question(s)

Azizsixer - Raging Tide

b:surrender I give up trying to understand what both of yall are talking about...got confused coming down to the last set of posts.

I stand by my view that all this "new" gear won't affect much ppl because of the limited availability. (Cost and all that fun stuff)

Its sad that these forum discussions provide more entertainment than actually playing the game

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Azizsixer - Raging Tide wrote: »

b:surrender I give up trying to understand what both of yall are talking about...got confused coming down to the last set of posts.

Basically, Empu is saying that he would prefer if people used more than just a DPS number to tell whether Weapon A is a better choice than Weapon B. The idea he proposed was a graph like seen in Venomancer Pet stats.

I stand by my view that all this "new" gear won't affect much ppl because of the limited availability. (Cost and all that fun stuff)

Well, it's not going to be as mainstream as Nirvana or R9 for sure, but it's opening new possibilities.

Btw, I actually wrote a two sheet spreadsheet where you insert Minimum Damage, Maximum Damage, Critical %, Attack Rate, Attack Levels, Defense Levels, Pdef, MDef and HP of a given setup. It then standardizes them according to the highest value found, after which you can draw a graph of it. I did some searching and found that making the graph-drawing automated would require some advanced spreadsheet fiddling, which really isn't my thing, so I left that out.

Empu - Sanctuary

Yeah, the polyhedron is just a typical graphic representation that you can choose another form for and is in pretty much any "math" software (it's not like I invented it or something b:laugh). Ofc, you can just work from the data directly. Imo, the biggest interests of a graphic representation are that a) everyone can understand them (hence why they are used so often in shops), b) they force automatically to have several criteria without having to many, and finally c) they avoid getting to detailed.

Ofc, there are plenty other options. For me there is where the real difficulties of math are. Finding what is worth to calculate and making sure that any possible user can use/read it. The calculations properly speaking are only of little interest, that is what we have machines and stagaires for.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then again, we have people who are asking questions like "Between A and B, which is better?" If you pick an option without backing it up, it's not really credible.

I still fail how to understand why "A has higher dps then B" is a better backup then "A hits harder then B", "A hits faster then B" or even "A looks cooler then B".

Seriously, the most intelligent reply to give to those type of questions is :
*advantages/inconvenients of A*
*advantages/inconvenients of B*
*personally, I prefer A/B because my priority goes to ...*

When I see a thread full of replies "dps A > dps B, so A is better", I feel intellectually forced to defend B b:chuckle

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah, the polyhedron is just a typical graphic representation that you can choose another form for and is in pretty much any "math" software (it's not like I invented it or something b:laugh). Ofc, you can just work from the data directly. Imo, the biggest interests of a graphic representation are that a) everyone can understand them (hence why they are used so often in shops), b) they force automatically to have several criteria without having to many, and finally c) they avoid getting to detailed.

Ofc, there are plenty other options. For me there is where the real difficulties of math are. Finding what is worth to calculate and making sure that any possible user can use/read it. The calculations properly speaking are only of little interest, that is what we have machines and stagaires for.

I actually spent the night writing and tweaking a spreadsheet that does the polyhedron for you. Kinda. You kinda punch in the values for hp,crit,min,max,aps,hp,mdef,pdef,deflv,atklv manually and then go to a second chart, where you select the corresponding rows and columns as you like, e.g. "setup1, setup2, setup53, hp,deflv,pdef, and then draw the graph with the the neat wizard.

It's actually much more useful than I first thought it would be. Since I put in all of those values, it can be used to tell whether a Seeker, BM or Barb would be the most balanced character in terms of tanking. Or it can be used to compare full DoT sharding to JoSD/Primevals. Or to compare R9 to G13.

The only thing that I haven't yet worked out properly, and most likely will not, is negative attack and defense levels. The reason for this is because said formulas are already riddled with conditions and adding a whacky cross-reference is far too much headache just so that I could cover a few skills, e.g. White/Black Voodoo, Soulsever Minuet and Devour.

I still fail how to understand why "A has higher dps then B" is a better backup then "A hits harder then B", "A hits faster then B" or even "A looks cooler then B".

Because it means more. Hitting harder or faster is meaningless alone. Looking cooler... well if you're into looks, you wouldn't be asking advice.

This makes me want to conceptualize a code that does like 10,000 trials of auto-attacking over some period of time.

Empu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I actually spent the night writing and tweaking a spreadsheet that does the polyhedron for you.

You must really like playing with figures b:chuckle I'm pretty curious about the result.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Because it means more. Hitting harder or faster is meaningless alone. Looking cooler... well if you're into looks, you wouldn't be asking advice.

For me the imporance is only proportional to the users needs. In general, I disagree dps means more then for instance dph or aps, especially when taken alone. But I already made that pretty obvious.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

You must really like playing with figures b:chuckle I'm pretty curious about the result.

It was actually the spreadsheet lingo that kept me up. I wanted the spreadsheet to not contain any error messages, mostly the "division by zero" message. Turns out that to achieve that, I needed some conditions in the cells, which is something I haven't done before.

I then spent another while transposing the whole thing because it looks better that way.

FoosYu - Harshlands

i think i can say this for most people when i say...


Empu and Olbaze....what?! b:surrender herp derp

brain's like dead at 5am xD

Olbaze - Sanctuary

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

i think i can say this for most people when i say...


Empu and Olbaze....what?! b:surrender herp derp

Oh nothing at all.

I only fulfilled Empu's request of a simple, broader way to compare setups. Well, the way I did it allows you to compare:
1. Different weapons
2. Different shards
3. Different gears
4. Different classes