very typical sin question(s)

FoosYu - Harshlands

Has anyone compared the 3rd cast netherworld guidance daggers (forged from 2nd cast Dark Death Thorn) to let's say any 3 casts of r9 daggers? obviously with same refine/shard and what not.

since full r9 is better for pvp than pve, has it actually shown it's still almost AS good as full aps gear with r9 daggers in pve? or is it just somehow unbelievably wrong for some reason? xD

why are more and more people sharding DoT in their daggers when it seems like you regular sins have proved on and on about how even a G8 garnet gives more than DoT?

kind of a dumb question but, when soloing fc, do you even bother with killing mobs in halls even after exp room hall for the exp? was thinking if it was worth it in terms of the length of hypers being used, blah blah blah, or should i just go straight-up kill only bosses?

Olbaze - Sanctuary

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

Has anyone compared the 3rd cast netherworld guidance daggers (forged from 2nd cast Dark Death Thorn) to let's say any 3 casts of r9 daggers? obviously with same refine/shard and what not.

For Demons, 3R9 is superior to G16 by a decent factor. The extra 20 attack levels and GoF, along with lesser penalty due to lower APS results in the 3R9 being at worst 8% better in terms of DPS.

For Sages, it's a more complicated question. Are we talking about ideal conditions (e.g. 3x -0.05 on the G16) or are we talking about realistic conditions (e.g. 2x -0.05 on G16) or minimal conditions (e.g. 1x -0.05 on G16)? If we're talking ideal case, then G16 > 3R9. If we're talking realistic conditions, then they're about equal, though I would give the edge to 3R9 for having more DPH and the obviously higher spike damage. At minimal conditions, 3R9 is superior.

why are more and more people sharding DoT in their daggers when it seems like you regular sins have proved on and on about how even a G8 garnet gives more than DoT?

Because people are idiots and don't know how the damage in the game is calculated. Most people seem to believe that +patk is a straight bonus without any multipliers, e.g. a Garnet Gem is just +75 to the damage shown in your character screen.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

Has anyone compared the 3rd cast netherworld guidance daggers (forged from 2nd cast Dark Death Thorn) to let's say any 3 casts of r9 daggers? obviously with same refine/shard and what not.

since full r9 is better for pvp than pve, has it actually shown it's still almost AS good as full aps gear with r9 daggers in pve? or is it just somehow unbelievably wrong for some reason? xD

What Olbaze said, only I don't think there have been theoretical numbers calculated yet to show the DPS comparisons (like how there were charts for R9 vs. G15 vs. R8r vs. Morai G15 etc in PvE) of R9r/R9r2 and G16 daggers.

why are more and more people sharding DoT in their daggers when it seems like you regular sins have proved on and on about how even a G8 garnet gives more than DoT?

To add onto Olbaze's response, people also don't listen to reason, even though it's as you stated, it's been proven many times.

kind of a dumb question but, when soloing fc, do you even bother with killing mobs in halls even after exp room hall for the exp? was thinking if it was worth it in terms of the length of hypers being used, blah blah blah, or should i just go straight-up kill only bosses?

When I solo FC, I start my hyper on the Messenger of Fear (sleep boss), and leave it on until the end of FC, which is the big room, Oceanic Master, heads, and the final 3 bosses. I skip the dragoons, but still pull the mobs in the room before the final boss. When you hyper is more or less based off of how much you're willing to spend on hypers.

At 103 experience gets heavily nerfed (by about either 40 or 60%, I forgot), so it's not really worth using hypers for the hallway pulls after the jail boss. That's just me though.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

What Olbaze said, only I don't think there have been theoretical numbers calculated yet to show the DPS comparisons (like how there were charts for R9 vs. G15 vs. R8r vs. Morai G15 etc in PvE) of R9r/R9r2 and G16 daggers.

Oh, I did a few quick ballpark figures just based on GoF, the aps penalty and the attack levels and that's what I was referencing.

I could punch the stats into one of the handydancy spreadsheets someone made for accurate figures, though.

Empu - Sanctuary

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

Has anyone compared the 3rd cast netherworld guidance daggers (forged from 2nd cast Dark Death Thorn) to let's say any 3 casts of r9 daggers? obviously with same refine/shard and what not.

since full r9 is better for pvp than pve, has it actually shown it's still almost AS good as full aps gear with r9 daggers in pve? or is it just somehow unbelievably wrong for some reason? xD

Since nirvana daggers 2nd and 3rd recast have random adds and since 3rd cast r9 is also random in a bigger extend then the previous casts, the comparaisons are nothing more then an "intellectual" occupation like solving sudoku's. The comparaison only goes to dps for most anyway.

I doubt anyone really choose a dagger on dps reasons really. Most just base on other criteria like aps, damage spread, dph, proc, previous weapon, cost, weapon path, solo/squad, what they do ingame, what others consider the best weapon, etc.

Just use your own common sense for your personal situation and decide. Even if you know the stats of G15 nirvana in advance, different ppl will have different opinions.

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

why are more and more people sharding DoT in their daggers when it seems like you regular sins have proved on and on about how even a G8 garnet gives more than DoT?

The "WHY, OMG WHY ?" question pops up in my head way to often when I see others gear and choices. But if they are happy with it, who cares b:avoid

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

kind of a dumb question but, when soloing fc, do you even bother with killing mobs in halls even after exp room hall for the exp? was thinking if it was worth it in terms of the length of hypers being used, blah blah blah, or should i just go straight-up kill only bosses?

I don't often solo fcc anymore, but always just kill all mobs around. Even stealthed I won't pause my hypers from bishop till hands boss, since in my case it's more efficient to just let them run. The white mobs are pretty decent exp for the 1~2 min extra hyper time.

This highly depends on your gear and speed though. If you have to spark > IH > subsea > rift then get chi back up before going to boss or if you go group by group, it is not worth it. If you can gather then subsea > rift kill them, it is worth it.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh, I did a few quick ballpark figures just based on GoF, the aps penalty and the attack levels and that's what I was referencing.

I could punch the stats into one of the handydancy spreadsheets someone made for accurate figures, though.

That, or whenever PWCalc gets updated with the T3 Nirvana and R9r2 gear so providing a full gear calc would make DPS figures easier to follow along. That would be great to see


@Empu Yesterday I saw a r9 dagger sin with +3 to +5 armor refines, +10 weapon, flawless cits in other gear, and 2 DoTs in the weapon. I cringed. b:shocked

Empu - Sanctuary

@ Skai : on Sanc the sins that match your description are usually poor enough to just put in flawless garnets and to keep half their armor unsharded (we got at least 2 of those), while it's the +12 JoSD guys that put in DoT on weapons ...

At least on bm this weekend it was amusing to squad with that kind of sin for nirvana. Ofc, clerics are considered to slow squad down. WC squads can be entertaining sometimes b:laugh

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

That, or whenever PWCalc gets updated with the T3 Nirvana and R9r2 gear so providing a full gear calc would make DPS figures easier to follow along. That would be great to see

Using this as my basis for stats and the stats shown here and here, I got the following numbers, for Demons assuming Demon Mastery and Demon Wolf Emblem active at the time. I'll also assume 2x Garnet Gems and the lowest rolls on mods where applicable:

For Demons:
1x -0.05 G15 with SS: 295,759 dps
R9: 306,136 dps
1x -0.05 G16: 338,776 dps
3R9: 376,667 dps

For Sages:
1x -0.05 G15 with SS: 197,234 dps
R9: 218,547 dps
1x -0.05 G16: 225,922 dps
3R9: 268,296 dps

A few notes:
The big differences between Sage and Demon is due to not only the spark, but also the better Wolf Emblem, as I assumed 40% for Demon and 20% for Sage here
I assumed worst mods to make a fair comparison
While Demons won't benefit from more than 1x -0.05, for Sages a 2x -0.05 G16 would be comparable to 3R9 in terms of DPS

By "comparable" I mean that it's superior to the worst 3R9, but inferior to the ones with better rolls.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Ah I see, thanks for that. It's a bit crazy to think there's something that can out DPS normal r9 now. ;o

FoosYu - Harshlands

that's a hell of a lot of dmg for 3rd cast r9 b:shocked

if it helps, i was pretty much aiming for using my current +10 DDT to farm for r9 daggers or something, then use that to easily farm all the other r9 armour pieces and refine/shard/blah blah blah. i'd think maybe at somepoint for the hell of it, i would be able to get enough canny/rap for 2nd recast and then 3rd cast will probably be even easier to farm with full warsong/lunar b:pleased wonder if the game will still be up by then? it'll probably take me quite a while

and cool, guess if i can't kill mobs fast enough in fcc then there's no point in killing them xD 105 will be another challenge to overcome b:surrender

someone pray to PWI gods for a month of 2x or something so i can save up for r9 b:pleased

Azizsixer - Raging Tide

I thought this game was already completely solo-able gearwise by R9/G15+10 (+12 being icing on the cake) o.O

Question Time: Wouldn't this new gear only really factor in to PvP? I mean If something has 1m hp and you're dealing 2.5m w/R9 or 3.5 w/3R9...does it really matter?

*Has somewhat of a pessimistic out look on this game atm*

Empu - Sanctuary

Azizsixer - Raging Tide wrote: »

I mean If something has 1m hp and you're dealing 2.5m w/R9 or 3.5 w/3R9...does it really matter?

It's just an idicator among many others. Like any indicator, it only matters proportional to how much importance the decision taker gives to that specific aspect.

Only here on the forums, dps has become some kind of unique miracle factor that should get all our attention. In game, I don't know anyone except 2 guys who post here often that actually calculated their dps. It's some wicked hyperfocus on 1 aspect that I personally place last of my list of importance.

It is like when comparing cars, saying the fastest is the best. It probably matters, a lot for some, only a little for others. But it's just 1 aspect that isolated has no use at all.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Azizsixer - Raging Tide wrote: »

I thought this game was already completely solo-able gearwise by R9/G15+10 (+12 being icing on the cake) o.O

Question Time: Wouldn't this new gear only really factor in to PvP? I mean If something has 1m hp and you're dealing 2.5m w/R9 or 3.5 w/3R9...does it really matter?

*Has somewhat of a pessimistic out look on this game atm*

Does it matter?

Not really. It's not going to drastically change anything. It's certainly not going to enable you to do something you haven't been able to do before. The only thing it'll do is make things faster. And even then, unless multiple people in a squad go through said boost, it's not even going to be noticeable.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's just an idicator among many others. Like any indicator, it only matters proportional to how much importance the decision taker gives to that specific aspect.

Only here on the forums, dps has become some kind of unique miracle factor that should get all our attention. In game, I don't know anyone except 2 guys who post here often that actually calculated their dps. It's some wicked hyperfocus on 1 aspect that I personally place last of my list of importance.

It is like when comparing cars, saying the fastest is the best. It probably matters, a lot for some, only a little for others. But it's just 1 aspect that isolated has no use at all.

Well, it's better than most people in the game. At least the DPS is a measure of something. Most Assassins pick their weapon solely based on the -interval. Either that, or the "mythical" 5 aps.

Empu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, it's better than most people in the game. At least the DPS is a measure of something.

You know how I think about that something. For me it's a **** indicator that has as only purpose to re-confirm what's already obvious. The fact that in the game pretty much nobody cares, shows that calculating dps has no more intellectual purpose then solving a sudoku. If ppl like to play with numbers, why not. But the pretending that dps really has an importance or that it is a "scientific" way to choose "the best" weapon, is getting really annoying.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Most Assassins pick their weapon solely based on the -interval. Either that, or the "mythical" 5 aps.

Actually, with the importance others give to 5 aps, that is a smarter move no ?

You also shouldn't confound a -int add being the factor that makes someone choose weapon X over Y, and only looking at the -int add. With just common sense most ppl take into account everything that is important to them. Trying to be intellectual is often just counter-productive.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

It is like when comparing cars, saying the fastest is the best. It probably matters, a lot for some, only a little for others. But it's just 1 aspect that isolated has no use at all.

I like this analogy. Especially considering we often call it a "damage race". I'd consider dps kind of like the horse power of a car. It doesn't say what the car will do with a driver behind the wheel, but its an indicator of what the car is capable of.

You seem to treat dps like it's a single stat. When we are comparing weapon's and talking about dps, crit rate, dph, -int, grade or refine rate you pile it in as a single component of the weapon when what dps tells us is a rating of that weapon. It is a function of all the other components combined, and like in the car example, it tells us what that weapon is capable off. Doesn't tell us what the driver will do, or what the car will be used for, but it gives us an idea of how it might perform.

The irony being all your criticism of dps you were one of the first sins to go get R9+12 daggers when they came out. You talk about survivability vs damage output but you carry two +11/12 sets of gear for both which isn't an option for 99% of the server. For us we are trying to balance having a dph weapon, a dps weapon, aps without sacrificing survivability, and survivability without giving up our damage. And when we try to have these conversations in forums you usually decide that measuring a weapons effectiveness is not a good indicator of how effective that weapon will be, and often change the conversation to "what if the boss stuns... it doesn't work on a kiting mob... in pk you'll want dph in this situation". To me, we're trying compare 1/4 mile racing times and you're telling us our Ferrari won't do offroading well. It gets tuned out most the time. To me, in a game based on mathmatic fomulas, using a mathmatic formula to compare weapons makes sense.

It'd more helpful if you contributed about the human components like spark timing, pull techniques, skill usage while maintaining triple sparks. Those often change with the weapon and are variable but the dps is measurable.

Haila - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Using this
For Demons:
1x -0.05 G15 with SS: 295,759 dps
R9: 306,136 dps
1x -0.05 G16: 338,776 dps
3R9: 376,667 dps

For Sages:
1x -0.05 G15 with SS: 197,234 dps
R9: 218,547 dps
1x -0.05 G16: 225,922 dps
3R9: 268,296 dps

A few notes:
The big differences between Sage and Demon is due to not only the spark, but also the better Wolf Emblem, as I assumed 40% for Demon and 20% for Sage here
I assumed worst mods to make a fair comparison
While Demons won't benefit from more than 1x -0.05, for Sages a 2x -0.05 G16 would be comparable to 3R9 in terms of DPS

By "comparable" I mean that it's superior to the worst 3R9, but inferior to the ones with better rolls.

I currently have a sage and demon sin on same account using same gear. Somehow i like the sage one more, maybe cause I played sage first.
So i am working on G16 daggers and would like to have same aps like the G13.
My question is since you are good in maths: approximately how many rerolls it takes to get 2x -int on it?

I'm realy bad in maths b:surrender

Edit: tried to calculate myself and my calculation is 1,5% chance

Empu - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

You seem to treat dps like it's a single stat. When we are comparing weapon's and talking about dps, crit rate, dph, -int, grade or refine rate you pile it in as a single component of the weapon when what dps tells us is a rating of that weapon.

I stopped reading here. Seriously, I don't understand how you can even write that down. If you pile all aspects of a weapon in 1 component, you are ranking them and not comparing. If you pile them, it means you already decided on what the main aspect to look at is.

Actually, a real comparaison doesn't give you an answer. It's simply presenting accurate and pertinent information to allow someone to make the right decision in a short time. The "dps" does the exact opposite. It hides all the differences. Simply the order the formula is written in, already tells me it's going to be useless.

I treat dps like a single stat, because it's used, calculated and presented that way. A figure like 285.698 doesn't say anything at all about the weapons dps, crit, dph or any other thing you claim to be comparing. Or simply said : +130 max phys att =/= +65 phys att. You act like the difference doesn't exists simply because you can't point 1 as being "better" then the other.

EDIT AFTER READING REST OUT OF COURTASY :
Honestly, the "for us who ..." presentation really wasn't necessary as you're not all that poor either lol

Anyway, here on the forums the "formula's" are used in stead of common sense. It's not because you can measure something that it's usefull or more usefull then something you can't measure. I believe the dps figures is the last of someone's concerns when picking a weapon to work/save for.

I also gave several times another methode of comparing several weapons. But that always just get's ditched because it doesn't give 1 nice answer that puts weap X over or under weap Y. Just like some other feedback I gave over time, that you were often the first to reject. It's funny how you changed your opinion on several points though. I really found it funny when you got off your believe of "dps = survivability". Just because I don't like to calculate figures unless strictly necessary, it doesn't mean I never brought any contribution. I often go against popular believe, I know. And often it goes "but your gear is ....". You often don't seem to get my points either, like this time. I don't know why you bring the aps/dph debate up.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

I currently have a sage and demon sin on same account using same gear. Somehow i like the sage one more, maybe cause I played sage first.
So i am working on G16 daggers and would like to have same aps like the G13.
My question is since you are good in maths: approximately how many rerolls it takes to get 2x -int on it?

I'm realy bad in maths b:surrender

Edit: tried to calculate myself and my calculation is 1,5% chance

To elaborate it in simplified manner as I try to also help one understand the math behind it.

We got need for 2 slots out of 3 with addon that has 5% chance of popping. I believe fractions are the simplest way to elaborate the math on this one with 5% = 0,05 = 1/20.

So 1/20 * 1/20 * 3/2 = 3/800 ~267 rerolls.

If we want the chance for it? 1/20 * 1/20 * 3/2 * 100% = 0,375%

Ps. It`s actually been while since Ive done conditional probabilities and there might be some error in my math even if I feel content with it.

Geshwur - Raging Tide

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Using this as my basis for stats and the stats shown here and here, I got the following numbers, for Demons assuming Demon Mastery and Demon Wolf Emblem active at the time. I'll also assume 2x Garnet Gems and the lowest rolls on mods where applicable:

For Demons:
1x -0.05 G15 with SS: 295,759 dps
R9: 306,136 dps
1x -0.05 G16: 338,776 dps
3R9: 376,667 dps

For Sages:
1x -0.05 G15 with SS: 197,234 dps
R9: 218,547 dps
1x -0.05 G16: 225,922 dps
3R9: 268,296 dps

A few notes:
The big differences between Sage and Demon is due to not only the spark, but also the better Wolf Emblem, as I assumed 40% for Demon and 20% for Sage here
I assumed worst mods to make a fair comparison
While Demons won't benefit from more than 1x -0.05, for Sages a 2x -0.05 G16 would be comparable to 3R9 in terms of DPS

By "comparable" I mean that it's superior to the worst 3R9, but inferior to the ones with better rolls.

What adds did you use on the T3 Nirvy? You said minimum on them where applicable but not much more.

I just want to know if that's what I should expect from mine with +130 mpa and +1% crit at 5APS, or if I should expect more.



ALSO On the question about sage.

I also have a sage and demon on same account with stash.

Even with only -.05 I find it worth using under the right circumstances IN CORDINATION with Grade 13 (Will do more testing later, but +8 doesn't compare to the +11 on my G13 just yet for my sage)

A Neat trick I've been using on my sage sin is I hit a Crimson Soul Powder JUST BEFORE spark (after wolf emblem [I don't get sage wolf because I find combining level 10 effectively with PowerDash is more effective]) Spark purifies the HF effect, then I proceed with Power Dash combo, when the APS from CSP wears off I switch back to G13 and Wind Shield combo. Doing this has proven to be VERY effective and I intend on continuing with Crimson Souls even after my daggers are fully refined and sharded. (Always in conjunction with Power Dash to maximize my damage ofc) The only difference will be that i don't switch back to my G13 at all.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Geshwur - Raging Tide wrote: »

What adds did you use on the T3 Nirvy? You said minimum on them where applicable but not much more.

I just want to know if that's what I should expect from mine with +130 mpa and +1% crit at 5APS, or if I should expect more.

By minimal, I truly meant minimal. I only assumed a single -0.05 interval on the G16.

Geshwur - Raging Tide

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

By minimal, I truly meant minimal. I only assumed a single -0.05 interval on the G16.

=O

Can you calc with +130 attack levels and +1% crit? =O

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Geshwur - Raging Tide wrote: »

=O

Can you calc with +130 attack levels and +1% crit? =O

+130 Attack Levels? I think not.

But using this as a basis and point of comparison, for a G16 Nirvana, I got 358,497 dps.

FoosYu - Harshlands

this maybe pretty dumb of me to say but.....what does survivability have to do with a weapon? shouldn't we worry about that for our armour? xD

for skai/olbaze/someone with like maybe full r9 +10/+12 set (not sure what sharding you guys have) have any experiences with using that whole set in tt/fc/nirvana? cause i know that many sins go r9 daggers and just keep the usual aps gear since it seems to work so well but what about full r9? i mean all that att/def level, more dmg/crit, maybe less aps but it's more of a dph thing than dps thing...yeah that's how i'm gonna apparently word this cause it makes sense only in my world b:shutup

Olbaze - Sanctuary

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

this maybe pretty dumb of me to say but.....what does survivability have to do with a weapon? shouldn't we worry about that for our armour? xD

Plenty, actually.

More DPH = more healed/hit
More DPS = more healed/second
More atk/s = more sparking = more 3s immunities

And then there's the factor that a lot of bosses start doing bad stuff at a certain point during their lifespan, so more dps means they get less of a chance, if any at all, to do it. Good example would be a bunch of 4-5 aps DDs against Leaf Rain Dryad: It will die before it can do the self-buff, thus no chance of anyone dying to it.

for skai/olbaze/someone with like maybe full r9 +10/+12

Lol, neither of us have that kind of stuff. I have mostly +6 standard interval gear, Skai is +10-12 with +12 R9, going for recast R8s for 5 aps R9.

set (not sure what sharding you guys have) have any experiences with using that whole set in tt/fc/nirvana? cause i know that many sins go r9 daggers and just keep the usual aps gear since it seems to work so well but what about full r9? i mean all that att/def level, more dmg/crit, maybe less aps but it's more of a dph thing than dps thing...yeah that's how i'm gonna apparently word this cause it makes sense only in my world b:shutup

Well, I would like to point you to these two videos of two different sins doing the same thing. The first is a full R9 +12 JoSD Sage using skills, the latter is a 4 aps R9 +12 using autoattacks.

The thing with full R9 is that it falls far behind in terms of DPS in comparison to the interval builds, which isn't really good for PvE. Yes, you can survive longer, but you also take longer to kill everything. And from what I gather, the interval built R9s have no trouble surviving pretty much everything in the game.

Empu - Sanctuary

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

this maybe pretty dumb of me to say but.....what does survivability have to do with a weapon? shouldn't we worry about that for our armour? xD

Mainly, you can't pick a weapon without looking at your total build. Most obvious example would be the -int you have on armor, which by fact limits your survivability. Same for DoT, which limit your survivability. Ofc, for some that is not an issue, for others it is. I am sage with full DoT armor, and know for sure that changing demon would make me change shards for hp/def lvls. On top of that, some daggers have survivability adds. Most just neglect that part because it's hard to put into figures (look at any of the TT80 H&T vs Gold FCC debate).

It's all about the global picture of all gear that has to match with what the user wants to do with it.

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

for skai/olbaze/someone with like maybe full r9 +10/+12 set (not sure what sharding you guys have) have any experiences with using that whole set in tt/fc/nirvana? cause i know that many sins go r9 daggers and just keep the usual aps gear since it seems to work so well but what about full r9? i mean all that att/def level, more dmg/crit, maybe less aps but it's more of a dph thing than dps thing...yeah that's how i'm gonna apparently word this cause it makes sense only in my world b:shutup

Most sins that have full r9 also have an "aps" set (I do also). The dph is great for all the things where sins are said to be "not so usefull". Actually, for me that is already a reason to go r9 over 2nd cast nirvana, but that is already an outdated debate. For 1 target DD on bosses, nothing beats -int armor (except seat boss ofc), because aps being based on an inverse function. For all the rest, the increased survivability and dph will be more usefull and speed things up. I can't say what would be fastest, fastest would be to have both. I can't say if the time gain from full r9 would be bigger/smaller then the time gain from -int on bosses.

I think most simply go for 1 target focus because sins can stealth, and because nirvana (no mob instance) has become the reference. It's annoying aps became the reference because not many squads actually aoe, which is a downside for full r9 without being related to the gear itself. (Fcc is to low lvl to be even looked at with either choice of gear.)

Geshwur - Raging Tide

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

+130 Attack Levels? I think not.

But using this as a basis and point of comparison, for a G16 Nirvana, I got 358,497 dps.

Lol I meant 130 maximum physical attack and +1% crit. xD IDK why I said attack levels x.x

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Mainly, you can't pick a weapon without looking at your total build. Most obvious example would be the -int you have on armor, which by fact limits your survivability. Same for DoT, which limit your survivability. Ofc, for some that is not an issue, for others it is. I am sage with full DoT armor, and know for sure that changing demon would make me change shards for hp/def lvls. On top of that, some daggers have survivability adds. Most just neglect that part because it's hard to put into figures (look at any of the TT80 H&T vs Gold FCC debate).

It's all about the global picture of all gear that has to match with what the user wants to do with it.

If you want to get technical, you could use a simplified form of Effective Health to count for damage reduction percentages such as Sage Spark, which would be equal to +33% HP.

Increments in effective health are direct increments in your HP in the form that increasing your effective health by a percentage means your opponent has to deal that percentage more dps to kill you in the same time. Or if you want to, you can take the increment in effective health as a "survival count", where the increment tells you how much longer you can survive the beatdown.

The real issue is that there is no way to compare survivability to dps. For most people, there is a point of "enough survivability", after which they focus on dps. For some, such as myself, there is a point of "enough dps", after which survivability takes the stage. Since you cannot really define the balance between the two in a universal manner, the balance between the two is an individual thing. And since most people only want "just enough" survivability, they tend to ignore the "messy" factors such as procs that heal you.

I think most simply go for 1 target focus because sins can stealth, and because nirvana (no mob instance) has become the reference. It's annoying aps became the reference because not many squads actually aoe, which is a downside for full r9 without being related to the gear itself. (Fcc is to low lvl to be even looked at with either choice of gear.)

The annoyance also shows in the simpler forms of PvP, such as Cube of Fate. I don't think I've seen a single BM in cube, short of the few R9s, that didn't go AD->Stun-> Auto-attack on me.

Empu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

For most people, there is a point of "enough survivability", after which they focus on dps. For some, such as myself, there is a point of "enough dps", after which survivability takes the stage. Since you cannot really define the balance between the two in a universal manner, the balance between the two is an individual thing. And since most people only want "just enough" survivability, they tend to ignore the "messy" factors such as procs that heal you.

Yes, and that actually goes for every debate (dph/aps, sage/demon, bm/sin, etc). That is actually my biggest annoyance with all the "math never lies" approach here. My approach is to help ppl realise where their priorities are. But I better stop, or Saku gonna flame again b:chuckle

As a reponse, I don't think a simplified factor of effective health is the best approach. Just as example, I used that kind of approach first on my HA set. The conclusion was that vit stones would be best. Economy forced me to settle with a substitute and I went for sapphires... And I actually love it wondering why I didn't have that idea earlier. Thing is, I don't like big piled indicators that don't give vision on their composition. As example, the new bosses mean attack doesn't see sage spark as +33% hp at all.

I think the easiest, fastest and most visionary way to compare "builds" would be a radar (like they have for veno pets). 2 halfs, 1st with aps, min hit, max hit, crit rate, proc and att lvls (can put them with min and max hit ofc) gives a surface that shows the dps. 2nd half with hp, phys def, mag def, def lvls and maybe proc, gives a survival surface. Radars are the easiest way to get a quick vision of a whole while still seeing all points of difference. For those who like to play with figures, they could even quantify the "effective health" and "dps" surface. After that, up to everyone to decide which points are most for them.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, and that actually goes for every debate (dph/aps, sage/demon, bm/sin, etc). That is actually my biggest annoyance with all the "math never lies" approach here. My approach is to help ppl realise where their priorities are. But I better stop, or Saku gonna flame again b:chuckle

It's less "math never lies" and more "math doesn't give a **** if being demon makes you cool as Chuck Norris and Sage makes you a rabid dwarf". At least that's what I'm hoping.

As a reponse, I don't think a simplified factor of effective health is the best approach. Just as example, I used that kind of approach first on my HA set. The conclusion was that vit stones would be best. Economy forced me to settle with a substitute and I went for sapphires... And I actually love it wondering why I didn't have that idea earlier. Thing is, I don't like big piled indicators that don't give vision on their composition. As example, the new bosses mean attack doesn't see sage spark as +33% hp at all.

Of course, it's not applicable to all situations.

But then again sapphires also aren't applicable to all situations. At best it's an obvious third route considering that mag def is a weakness of HA.

I think the easiest, fastest and most visionary way to compare "builds" would be a radar (like they have for veno pets). 2 halfs, 1st with aps, min hit, max hit, crit rate, proc and att lvls (can put them with min and max hit ofc) gives a surface that shows the dps. 2nd half with hp, phys def, mag def, def lvls and maybe proc, gives a survival surface. Radars are the easiest way to get a quick vision of a whole while still seeing all points of difference. For those who like to play with figures, they could even quantify the "effective health" and "dps" surface. After that, up to everyone to decide which points are most for them.

I dunno. The radar thing is just a bunch of attributes set on lines, given a "maximum" and a "you're here" numerical value, then connected by lines to create a polyhedron. And there's just no good way to get the "maximum", since if they just set some arbitrary point of "maximum" then it'll be meaningless, but if it's an actual in-game maximum, e.g. the highest possible HP your class could have the ideal combination of items, then it just gets far too complex.

Empu - Sanctuary

@ Olbaze : The need for a common scale on each axe seemed kinda obvious to me b:surrender For the rest, it's not really important that the best possible hp fits on the line (you can always get a bigger paper if you win 5 love: up and down from lucidgold). As in any graphic representation, you take the scale that allows a good visualization of the options you want to represent.

It's simply a visual tool to compare several options. Anyone can do it, no calculator needed, and an instant idea of a multitude of criteria. Try it with G13 nirvana and R8, which we know are both rather close. You'll see how limited the view of just "dps" is.

Ofc, there are other ways. You know I'd ideally compare according to a probability approach of damage spread. This would give a horizontal view of how damage can be generated, while showing vertically the different possibilities, converging to an average. But I'm to lazy to create a spreadsheet for it and it is an approach that would match my importances, not that of everyone. The truth is, the whole "dps" thing could be usefull, if it weren't used the way it is now. Both things I just put actually show "dps" but detail where it comes from (which is what really matters imo). By just rearranging the formula and putting the reasoning chain with intermediate results, it would already contribute 10x more then it does now.

I think ppl asking others to fill in a highly basic formula is enough proof of the ineffectiveness and lack of logic in the presentation/use of the said formula. It's not them who are "bad at math" or "less intelligent", it's the formula that is simply disrespectfull to common logic.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

@ Olbaze : The need for a common scale on each axe seemed kinda obvious to me b:surrender For the rest, it's not really important that the best possible hp fits on the line (you can always get a bigger paper if you win 5 love: up and down from lucidgold). As in any graphic representation, you take the scale that allows a good visualization of the options you want to represent.

It's simply a visual tool to compare several options. Anyone can do it, no calculator needed, and an instant idea of a multitude of criteria. Try it with G13 nirvana and R8, which we know are both rather close. You'll see how limited the view of just "dps" is.

Of course, the polyhedron is doable. One could just fix the axes so that the highest value observed in the sets you are comparing is the maximum and the length is a direct percentage of that value.

The thing is, the radar approach is only good for a few things. Firstly, it can show when a build is balanced. Secondly, it can show the gross flaws of a build. Thirdly, it can show when your build is balanced but weak.

Heck, you could do it without a radar. You could instead use multiple bar charts, which each bar representing a relative figure of an attribute. The closer the shape of the bars is to an even rectangle, the more balanced it is.

Actually, after fiddling with OpenOffice's Calc, I found that it is able to make those polyhedrons. Interestingly, using this as my basis, comparing no shards, full DoT and a mix of JoSD and Primevals, I found that the best results were gained from the third setup. In fact, because I made the stats relative to the highest value, the difference between plains shards and DoT was minimal.

I think ppl asking others to fill in a highly basic formula is enough proof of the ineffectiveness and lack of logic in the presentation/use of the said formula. It's not them who are "bad at math" or "less intelligent", it's the formula that is simply disrespectfull to common logic.

Then again, we have people who are asking questions like "Between A and B, which is better?" If you pick an option without backing it up, it's not really credible.

Heck, high refines and the fact that Demons can get 4-5 aps with any dagger, in my opinion, makes the whole debate kinda pointless. Your weapon choice only affects your survivability via chi gain and heals, but generally lower APS is only "acceptable" when you have higher DPH and DPS to compensate, thus rendering the point moot.