Maximizing Damage Output/Questions

Olbaze - Sanctuary

CritCat - Archosaur wrote: »

Okay, normally I would be searching the fourms looking for yet ANOTHER thread about this, but honestly the search feature is a bit complicated and picky. Therefore I ask the other people of this sub-section:

As a sage assassin, Do I get more DPS from 4.0 G13 Barrier Thorns,
or 2.86 Rank 9 Daggers?

Basically, How could I maximize my damage output in DPS?

If I were to stay demon, the best choice would be 4.0/R9 Recast, correct?

How much do I lose switching to perma-spark/4.0 BTs?

Which weapon is best over time for PvE Bosses with more than 1mil HP?

What are the core genie skills for amping other than what I have?
I currently have Frenzy10/Mire10/EP10/iforgotthatzealpullingskill.


Let's say:
http://pwcalc.com/88743a194150c51c

In terms of raw DPS: recast R9 tops 99% of all options. Pretty sure the only scenario where it doesn't come out on top is a GoF/2x -0.05 interval G15 on a Sage sin and possibly a GoF/-0.05/130 max weapon on a Demon.

As for which weapon is best: if a boss takes longer than you can maintain your permaspark for, which would pretty much amount to doing WBs, some would prefer G13s. From what I recall, when Skai was doing WBs, he switched over to G13s once a while to gain chi.

As for Genie skills, Frenzy, Mire and EP are pretty much the core of it. I believe there was some discussion about Mire vs Impact, but on average, Mire comes out on top by a pretty hefty portion, especially on a high str genie.

It doesn't really matter when the boss is hitting me for 5~7k each hit.

All that matters is timing triple spark, spamming HP pots and charms, and keeping ribstrike up.

I'm just trying to crank out the max DPS on this toon.

Empu is pretty much walking around with the setup you posted in the OP, except he doesn't have recast R9 and I'm pretty sure he's still only for 22 DoTs and some +11 refines. And he uses a Sign of Frost: Chaos. Also from what he says, he can solo quite a few things. So I'd really take anything that he says regarding survivability to come not from theory but from actually having tanked/soloed most things in the game.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

As for which weapon is best: if a boss takes longer than you can maintain your permaspark for, which would pretty much amount to doing WBs, some would prefer G13s. From what I recall, when Skai was doing WBs, he switched over to G13s once a while to gain chi.

The only time I did that was due to the boss I was fighting. It was Sword Tamer, and every 10 secs or so he casts a spell similar to Mo Zun's Taunt, which takes away 50 chi.

That makes permasparking with 4aps sparked a bit difficult to do, unless you time your sparks well, which I didn't really do. And the annoying part in the vid was that G13 dagger's range put me out of BB, which really ticked my charm a few times.

So to get my chi back quickly, I used G13 during that time. Otherwise perma sparking with 4 aps is actually pretty easy to do, even over the course of 5+ sparks. If you timed it right, you can suffice 2-3 hits outside of spark when it ends to gain some chi back before sparking again, which lowers the amount of chi lost per 4 spark in the long run. That's what I've been doing a lot of when I hit 4 aps. I'm very ADD when it comes to maintaining chi. And I'm not sure if any sin has really noticed, but at some points the game still maintains your sparked status for an extra fraction of a second sometimes towards the end of a spark, which results in attacking at the same rate/power for that fraction, which results in a lot more chi gain in the end of a spark.

I'm pretty sure that last sentence didn't make sense, so it's better to put it in an example. I don't have the specific numbers on me, but normally I'll have 3 and 2/3 spark regained after a full spark of auto attacking. The "glitch" I stated in the last sentence of the previous paragraph makes it so right when the spark ends, I'll end up with 3 and 9/10 spark regained, or sometimes even all 399 chi. And this happens quite often to me.

Most people would spark the 1/3 of a second before spark ends, or right when spark ends, which results in poor chi maintain should the fight prolong more than 3 sparks.

That's just some of my experience with chi.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

The only time I did that was due to the boss I was fighting. It was Sword Tamer, and every 10 secs or so he casts a spell similar to Mo Zun's Taunt, which takes away 50 chi.

Then again the OP also mentioned bosses hitting him for 5-7k and I'm pretty sure the only things that could do that are TT and WBs, both of which are notorious for their nasty patterns.

That makes permasparking with 4aps sparked a bit difficult to do, unless you time your sparks well, which I didn't really do. And the annoying part in the vid was that G13 dagger's range put me out of BB, which really ticked my charm a few times.

But that would be more the cleric's fault than yours, though.

But as a counter-APS argument, I present 3.33 aps herb farming.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I remember that video.

He redlined so many times. xD But I'm not one to speak because I've never attempted it before.

Empu - Sanctuary

CritCat - Archosaur wrote: »

It doesn't really matter when the boss is hitting me for 5~7k each hit.

All that matters is timing triple spark, spamming HP pots and charms, and keeping ribstrike up.

I'm just trying to crank out the max DPS on this toon.

Now I'm confused, but you're saying exactly what I said :

With a grade 13+ weapon (r8, r8 recast, hitman, r9, nirvana, ...) at refines +10 or higher and the regular armor setup, bp will replenish your hp between boss hits. The whole "more damage = more survivability" becomes a non-issue with only a few marginal exceptions.

In other words, I can solo the same bosses with my old r8 daggers. It just takes a good while longer, making it often not worth it.

PS : there are bosses that hit harder... I've found up to 18k in my current armor. However, I never go through the trouble to get buffs besides hp buff from my own barb from time to time. If you can't do it self-buffed, it's not really soloing... I still need to get to really soloing metal and earth, cause never managed that without barb or cleric buffs

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

still only for 22 DoTs and some +11 refines

When I bought DoTs, they were at 3mil for the r8/tt99 and 5mil for the nirvana parts. The price went so freaking high (23mil+ @,..,@), I'm not planning on sharding anything. The prices of all high end shards have become disproportioned to their gain imo, so will stay at the same armor for a while.

Besides, it's not a good plan to aim for expensive stuff when not having much time b:chuckle Unless Traz lends me his VISA ofc

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I wish I got and "reserved" my shards and held on to them early on, so I wouldn't have to spend more coin on sharding a gear than the gear + refining itself.

But alas, that isn't the case. I went ahead and put off close to ~ 1 bil for my end-end game sharding, which is 8 Jades, 12 DoTs, and 4 vit (which are bought/sharded when they were 20m each). I guess I didn't jump the bandwagon early enough.

Even then, I'm a lil bit glad that I don't have to worry about shards anymore. But it did take a while.

Islashyou - Dreamweaver

i know the feeling skai

Empu - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I wish I got and "reserved" my shards and held on to them early on, so I wouldn't have to spend more coin on sharding a gear than the gear + refining itself.

But alas, that isn't the case. I went ahead and put off close to ~ 1 bil for my end-end game sharding, which is 8 Jades, 12 DoTs, and 4 vit (which are bought/sharded when they were 20m each). I guess I didn't jump the bandwagon early enough.

Even then, I'm a lil bit glad that I don't have to worry about shards anymore. But it did take a while.

The problem on Sanc (at least I consider it a bad thing), is that the most part of the shards are in hands of merchants. The shards prices have gone up way more then gold, and gold already is maintained artificially high because of an increasing number being just hold for no particular reason.

It kinda reminds me of seeing houses for sale for years, because "houses are always worth more then when they were bought". In which case I prefer to transform old stables into a house, rather then buying something over-expensive house.

Since I couldn't really play much cause of rl lately, I've been keeping track on some shops in west-arch. Many of them seem to have almost 0 rotation in the past 3~4 months...

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

@Empu The same goes for Raging Tides. I'd assume the upwards of 98-99% of all endgame shards are held in the hands of a merchant. I know for sure that for every DoT I see sold at a non-merchant price (I.E. DoT being sold for 8m when the merchant sell price is 10-11m), I've seen at least 15-20 that were in catshops at merchant prices.

Even catshops where the majority of things they sold were specifically one type of endgame shard. And all of them overpriced. I've seen many of the things you've seen though (in regard to your last statement), and it's just like wow, really? It would be nice if the market finally crashed or something.

All I need is an orb sale, x2, and a chienkun sale, and I will be able to have the assure-ness of going ahead and sharding my gear for actual use than to just leave them in my bank/inventory until I feel comfortable sharding them. Otherwise they'll continue to sit and look pretty. XD

Empu - Sanctuary

@Skai : I'm always amazed by how the game mimics rl, and especially the flaws that makes ppl want to flee a bit in a game.

I sometimes wish they would add features like limited catshop time or catshop time fee like somegames have. Or even a time limit or possession fee for gold. Problem would be that this will also hurt the small part of usefull merchanting that still exists (like bulk buyers that create a win-win situation for themselves and individual item buyers). Though I really wish to get out this blocked situation where on 1 side the merchants won't lower prices because value is only supposed to go up, and on the other side ppl that won't buy anything because it's to freaking expensive.

Sure, I would like to "finish" my armor, I got enough stones to add sockets. I just don't do it because the prices are to high. It's not like the extra att lvls will make any real difference other then personal satisfaction. For my barb I decided to just put in flawless.

Who needs the market anyway, I'm very self-sufficient b:laugh At the moment, I rather give my real money to PWE then have my coins go to merchants I consider to ruin the ingame economy. This whole kitamura effect is getting a bit old. I'm sure some even rerolled a new account because they are affraid someone would find out they bought a panter with $ 2~3 years ago, which would make them not "100% free to play" b:surrender

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I sometimes wish they would add features like limited catshop time or catshop time fee like somegames have. Or even a time limit or possession fee for gold. Problem would be that this will also hurt the small part of usefull merchanting that still exists (like bulk buyers that create a win-win situation for themselves and individual item buyers). Though I really wish to get out this blocked situation where on 1 side the merchants won't lower prices because value is only supposed to go up, and on the other side ppl that won't buy anything because it's to freaking expensive.

Merchants not lowering their prices would have to do with people actually buying their goods. It's actually a rather neat circle: The merchants inflate their prices because of "demand", which to them means they're selling faster than they can restock. Then, the buyers have no choice but to again buy them at the inflated prices because majority of the market has shifted to those prices. Same repeats.

Though, it's not all merchants fault. People get to a high level, farm or merchant or cash shop, thus increasing their buying power. With this, they enter the buyer market, thus the demand for those expensive shards goes up. And the merchants, who have a limited supply, upgrade their prices so that they do not run out of stock due to the increased supply.

And the "crappy" pack sales since Christmas sure haven't helped either. Much less packs are being opened, thus less high end shards, thus less supply. The same is true of tokens, obviously.

As a merchant, I think I'm generally liked as a provider. I have had a few instances where buyers have contacted me asking whether I have more of something that I'm selling, e.g. packs, a specific dye, rep badges, or whether I'd be willing to sell a batch to them for a slightly cheaper price.

Empu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Merchants not lowering their prices would have to do with people actually buying their goods. It's actually a rather neat circle: The merchants inflate their prices because of "demand", which to them means they're selling faster than they can restock. Then, the buyers have no choice but to again buy them at the inflated prices because majority of the market has shifted to those prices. Same repeats.

This may sound offensive, but it really is my reaction : Did you actually read any newspaper the past 5 years ??? b:shocked

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

This may sound offensive, but it really is my reaction : Did you actually read any newspaper the past 5 years ??? b:shocked

This may sound like a blatant lie, but it really is the truth : I haven't.

Empu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

This may sound like a blatant lie, but it really is the truth : I haven't.

Well then, a newsflash : Supply and Demand are highly insufficiant to explain prices.

Ever wondered how to correctly apply that principle when the buyers and sellers are the same person? There are many shops in west arch that seem to have no rotation in their goods at all. I'm not the only one who notices. How can it be, if your principle is true, that the price doesn't drop ? Concrete example : there are a bless and a reflect scroll in ah for over 3 months now, each time for the same price. Each time put in for the same price, each time it doesn't sell. How long would be needed to "adjust" the price so it actually gets sold ? How big is the chance that, if the price gets cut to match a realistic value, a merchant will buy the scroll and put it back at the previous price ? Ever wondered how gold can be so high if there are, according to the signatures, ppl holding enough to satisfy the real demand (meaning the ones that buy gold to buy something to use) of the server for several months ?

ItsAWolf - Archosaur

Supply and Demand can be used to determine prices items would actually be bought at. The merchants that have certain items at prices so high nobody will ever buy them are in effect not participating in the economy at all. Holding on to an item for a couple of months without using it is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Say you have a vit gem that would sell right away for 30 mil, but you put it up for sale at 50 mil. You'd only have to invest and reinvest that 30 mil 11 times at a 5% profit margin to have more than 50 mil. That would take perhaps a month or so to do.

The difference with the housing prices is that people are in debt for a certain amount determined when their house was bought and if prices on houses drop they're pretty much screwed if they can't sell it for a near equal value. This causes a deadlock on housing prices; it's still very easy to sell your house if you're willing to drop the price a bit (i.e. the price that one would arrive at according to the low demand / high supply).

The people holding on to those gems are just wasting away potential coins they could've made by selling them for less. I've seen those vit gems being sold in wc for a little over 30m while the catshops demand 40-50. In this case it's better to wait for the occasional WC seller than to pay incredible amounts for the convenience factor of buying at a shop.

WnbTank - Archosaur

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Empu The same goes for Raging Tides. I'd assume the upwards of 98-99% of all endgame shards are held in the hands of a merchant. I know for sure that for every DoT I see sold at a non-merchant price (I.E. DoT being sold for 8m when the merchant sell price is 10-11m), I've seen at least 15-20 that were in catshops at merchant prices.

Even catshops where the majority of things they sold were specifically one type of endgame shard. And all of them overpriced. I've seen many of the things you've seen though (in regard to your last statement), and it's just like wow, really? It would be nice if the market finally crashed or something.

All I need is an orb sale, x2, and a chienkun sale, and I will be able to have the assure-ness of going ahead and sharding my gear for actual use than to just leave them in my bank/inventory until I feel comfortable sharding them. Otherwise they'll continue to sit and look pretty. XD

You guys complaining bout 10m DoTs? Come to Archosaur, I sold my Dot for 33m a month ago and prices havent really shifted from that. Though right now we`re seeing tokens plummeting due some merchants trying to get rid of their tokens due 2x as they need coins freed. Kitty is having sale himself, mostly to have his shop being opened often as he pulled Wing trophy & vit stone from packs + He has so many skillbooks to sell =/. I`m interested to see when prices return to normal as I`m expecting the sale period lasting only day or two till prices start to rise again. I gotta make more bank notes =/.

@ItsAWolf: Shards on Archosaur are expensive due how this anonymous sin, whoms BM was married to the biggest CS veno on server, drove them up there. He did that alone as he actually bought vit stones for 40m to... I really dont for what. It`s Pannzy all over again, people only bought vit stones to resell them to her at higher price.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

It is crazy.

And 30m+ DoTs sounds scary, but then again, I said that about 10m DoTs back when they were 3-4m each.

I have a strong feeling DoDs were driven high in prices due to many csers buying them in bulk over time. I know one that bought a good 24 of them at 38-40m each when they generally were at 30-35m buying, and that drove them up.

But I think we derailed this topic quite a bit lol XD

ItsAWolf - Archosaur

Thanks Wnb for explaining the shard situation on archosaur.... I suppose that means I'll just wait a bit before ever buying those b:chuckle Strange strange people on our server... Gold price is also doing weird things, I think some people are selling gold to buy nirvana stuff, cos the gold price occasionally plummets by about 100k+

I suppose just one CSer wanting to shard his entire setup will cause prices to rise by 10m or so on shards as there are never enough to go around for an entire set of gear. Don't think I'll ever go for JoSD though as I luckily don't do PvP