Intellectual Exercise
Options
Comments
-
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »I assumed Rage Damage is Attack Level. Is that incorrect?
What's the chi gain for casting it?
I believe so. With Wolf Emblem on, Assassins will crit for 30% more damage than normal, meaning 230% instead of 200%. I suppose you could say it was like an Attack Level boost for crits, but that is a bit inaccurate.
The chi gain for casting it is 10.A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »I believe so. With Wolf Emblem on, Assassins will crit for 30% more damage than normal, meaning 230% instead of 200%. I suppose you could say it was like an Attack Level boost for crits, but that is a bit inaccurate.
The chi gain for casting it is 10.
Thanx for the info.
Guess this means I can replace some of those regular attacks with Wolf Emblem.0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Thanx for the info.
Guess this means I can replace some of those regular attacks with Wolf Emblem.
For Sages, it'd be all attacks at 220%, since Sage Wolf Emblem is a 30 minute buff.
In terms of damage, it's factored as a 1.2 multiplier to your crit%, before adding the 1, e.g.:
Damage increase from crits = 1 + 1.2 * crit%
For Demons, it's technically 1.4, but they get the 30 second duration with a 60 second CD so it averages to the same 1.2. For level 10, it averages to 1.15.
Gives you funky results when you combine it with Power Dash, e.g. the damage multiplier from crits on my Sage sin with Power Dash is 1 + 1.2*0.82 = 1.984. Add me a ring for 85% crit and I'll be looking at a multiplier of 1 + 1.2 * 0.85 = 2.02.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »For Sages, it'd be all attacks at 220%, since Sage Wolf Emblem is a 30 minute buff.
In terms of damage, it's factored as a 1.2 multiplier to your crit%, before adding the 1, e.g.:
Damage increase from crits = 1 + 1.2 * crit%
For Demons, it's technically 1.4, but they get the 30 second duration with a 60 second CD so it averages to the same 1.2. For level 10, it averages to 1.15.
Gives you funky results when you combine it with Power Dash, e.g. the damage multiplier from crits on my Sage sin with Power Dash is 1 + 1.2*0.82 = 1.984. Add me a ring for 85% crit and I'll be looking at a multiplier of 1 + 1.2 * 0.85 = 2.02.
I haven't tried doing the Sage version of perma-sparking. I'm not saying it's impossible; just that when I did the Demon version, I had no idea about the existence of Wolf's Emblem.
I should make a bow Assassin that out-damages most Archers to accompany my claw Archer that out-damages most Blademasters.0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »I haven't tried doing the Sage version of perma-sparking. I'm not saying it's impossible; just that when I did the Demon version, I had no idea about the existence of Wolf's Emblem.
I should make a bow Assassin that out-damages most Archers to accompany my claw Archer that out-damages most Blademasters.
If you do such a thing, do let us know. I'm interested to see which culti path would work better for a bow Assassin in terms of chi gain, since you aren't fully relying on APS. It'd also be interesting to see if a bow Assassin can out "bow" an Archer >.>A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »If you do such a thing, do let us know. I'm interested to see which culti path would work better for a bow Assassin in terms of chi gain, since you aren't fully relying on APS. It'd also be interesting to see if a bow Assassin can out "bow" an Archer >.>
The answer to the latter is an obvious "no". The best bow an assassin can use is G15 Nirvana, unless we're talking Warsoul. G15 Nirvana fails in comparison to R9, especially since R9 on Archers gets -interval so they get the bonus attack levels from the set as well.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »If you do such a thing, do let us know. I'm interested to see which culti path would work better for a bow Assassin in terms of chi gain, since you aren't fully relying on APS. It'd also be interesting to see if a bow Assassin can out "bow" an Archer >.>
I'd go around with starter daggers...
and NEVER CAST BLOODPAINT...
A bow assassin named EMIYA. That's at least 4 levels of irony there.0 -
Heh. I was wondering what equation you were working on when you told me to look for your post on the sin forums.
Looks like most things have been discussed already, but you may also want to consider these:
Knife Throw
Range 35 Meters
Channel: .1 second
Cast: 1.0 second
Cooldown: 15 seconds (10 seconds Sage)
Chi Gain: 20 Chi
(Side Note: You can switch back to your bow while you're casting this and it leads you into auto attacking.)
Windpush
Instant
Cooldown: 60 seconds
Chi Gain: 10 Chi
Focused Mind
Channel: .4 seconds
Cast: 1.6 seconds
Cooldown: 90 seconds (shared with Tidal Protection)
Chi Gain: 10 Chi
Tidal Protection
Channel: .1 seconds
Cast: 1.6 seconds
Cooldown: 90 seconds (shared with Focused Mind)
Chi Gain: 10 Chi
Sage also has the benefit of Master Li's Technique, which is probably pretty obvious, but I don't remember seeing anyone call it out.
Knife Throw and Windpush are probably the most practical if you are looking for straight chi gain, but Focused Mind/Tidal Protection would be more practical if you're thinking about actually fighting with a bow. It may slow down your chi gain temporarily, but it could help mitigate the incoming damage (FM) since you don't benefit from Bloodpaint and keep you from getting sealed (TP), which seems to kill most perma-sparks.
This may be beyond the scope of your theorizing, but you could throw in other classes as well. Venos can give a spark (potentially 2) every 15 seconds. Demon Clerics can macro in Vanguard and Magic Shell for a chance at giving you 25 Chi. A Demon Barb can give you 50 chi every 3 seconds (and extra crit if they macro it with Demon SOT, for that matter).
While I won't say it's practical, with so much power leveling and the abundance of buff squads, it might make for an interesting experiment.
Which reminds me...I still need to hunt down those reset notes and borrow your claws...0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »The answer to the latter is an obvious "no". The best bow an assassin can use is G15 Nirvana, unless we're talking Warsoul. G15 Nirvana fails in comparison to R9, especially since R9 on Archers gets -interval so they get the bonus attack levels from the set as well.
I was thinking more along the lines of comparing with an Archer on a similar gear level. R9 will always be the best option, but I don't think the OP is planning for the best option, just a different one.A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »I was thinking more along the lines of comparing with an Archer on a similar gear level. R9 will always be the best option, but I don't think the OP is planning for the best option, just a different one.
This is correct.
Honestly, the gear I suggested for the assassin is standard interval gear. Right now, I could find an intellectual Assassin and compare damage output. We'd both get unrefined, unsharded Vast Lands and attempt to steal aggro from each other from some range boss in OHT. So long as we are similarly geared, we can compare if Assassins can out-damage an Archer with identical bows.
The main issue is that I'm using Archer R8 leggings, so I don't have the -interval there to compare with. I'd also have to restat some genies for Chi Siphon, and have to buy a lot of White Tea.Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »Knife Throw
Range 35 Meters
Channel: .1 second
Cast: 1.0 second
Cooldown: 15 seconds (10 seconds Sage)
Chi Gain: 20 Chi
(Side Note: You can switch back to your bow while you're casting this and it leads you into auto attacking.)
Oh, I had not considered this one. This can work. I'm too lazy to change my old post though.
20 freaking chi, what the hell? The most Archers get from any Archer skill is 15 (ignoring sage/demon). Did the CEO's child design the Assassin skill or something?Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »Sage also has the benefit of Master Li's Technique, which is probably pretty obvious, but I don't remember seeing anyone call it out.
Knife Throw and Windpush are probably the most practical if you are looking for straight chi gain, but Focused Mind/Tidal Protection would be more practical if you're thinking about actually fighting with a bow. It may slow down your chi gain temporarily, but it could help mitigate the incoming damage (FM) since you don't benefit from Bloodpaint and keep you from getting sealed (TP), which seems to kill most perma-sparks.
Olbaze mentioned Master Li's Technique already. I just haven't done a Sage Assassin perma-spark cycle. I'm also too lazy to do it now since I think I've already figured out a reasonable almost-perma-spark attack cycle. Somebody else want to do it?
As for FM/TP, those are definitely possible, but the purpose of this was to sort of maximize bow damage. The lack of Bloodpaint's benefit should not be a factor, since Archers do not get Bloodpaint. And if Archers can survive at range, so should Assassins, since Assassins should have Deaden Nerves active.Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »This may be beyond the scope of your theorizing, but you could throw in other classes as well. Venos can give a spark (potentially 2) every 15 seconds. Demon Clerics can macro in Vanguard and Magic Shell for a chance at giving you 25 Chi. A Demon Barb can give you 50 chi every 3 seconds (and extra crit if they macro it with Demon SOT, for that matter).
That's sort of beyond the intention of this thread. If Archers can perma-spark with a bow with the aid of others, then there's no need to discuss if Assassins can out-damage archers with a bow.Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »While I won't say it's practical, with so much power leveling and the abundance of buff squads, it might make for an interesting experiment.
Which reminds me...I still need to hunt down those reset notes and borrow your claws...
Have you considered the fact that since Assassins can perma-spark with the slowest unrestricted weapon, that means Assassins can perma-spark with *any* unrestricted weapon?
With a Strength build, I'm curious to see how well a Sword Assassin can stack against, say, a claw Archer.0 -
PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »I was thinking more along the lines of comparing with an Archer on a similar gear level. R9 will always be the best option, but I don't think the OP is planning for the best option, just a different one.
Well, who knows. I got a lvl 92 Demon Archer whom I'm planning to level to 100 soon. I'm also getting an Account Stash this week so that said Archer can get gear from my sin.
I'll report back when I get appropriate results.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »This is correct.
Honestly, the gear I suggested for the assassin is standard interval gear. Right now, I could find an intellectual Assassin and compare damage output. We'd both get unrefined, unsharded Vast Lands and attempt to steal aggro from each other from some range boss in OHT. So long as we are similarly geared, we can compare if Assassins can out-damage an Archer with identical bows.
The main issue is that I'm using Archer R8 leggings, so I don't have the -interval there to compare with. I'd also have to restat some genies for Chi Siphon, and have to buy a lot of White Tea.
It's not quite just gear, but the stats as well. You may need to consider a reset note or two to make sure that the dex is even. An archer stated to be able to wear claws won't have the same dex as a dagger/bow sin.Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Oh, I had not considered this one. This can work. I'm too lazy to change my old post though.
20 freaking chi, what the hell? The most Archers get from any Archer skill is 15 (ignoring sage/demon). Did the CEO's child design the Assassin skill or something?
To be fair, I did use Sage Knife Throw to get that value. It may very well be 10 or 15 for Demon/Level 10. Chi gain gets a little funny when you start talking level 11 skills.Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Olbaze mentioned Master Li's Technique already. I just haven't done a Sage Assassin perma-spark cycle. I'm also too lazy to do it now since I think I've already figured out a reasonable almost-perma-spark attack cycle. Somebody else want to do it?
Ah, I must have missed that post. I may play around with this and come up with a spark cycle for sages..Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »As for FM/TP, those are definitely possible, but the purpose of this was to sort of maximize bow damage. The lack of Bloodpaint's benefit should not be a factor, since Archers do not get Bloodpaint. And if Archers can survive at range, so should Assassins, since Assassins should have Deaden Nerves active.
Yeah, I didn't think these two would add to the experiment either way. But they're vital skills if you want to put it into practice.Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Have you considered the fact that since Assassins can perma-spark with the slowest unrestricted weapon, that means Assassins can perma-spark with *any* unrestricted weapon?
With a Strength build, I'm curious to see how well a Sword Assassin can stack against, say, a claw Archer.
Interesting thought. I may borrow my seeker's sword when I run the tests with restatting, if you would like some raw data to compare with.0 -
Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »It's not quite just gear, but the stats as well. You may need to consider a reset note or two to make sure that the dex is even. An archer stated to be able to wear claws won't have the same dex as a dagger/bow sin.
Oh, right, that. Hmm... I have 50 points in Vit as well...Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yeah, I didn't think these two would add to the experiment either way. But they're vital skills if you want to put it into practice.
Oh, I disagree on them being vital. Archers do not have comparable skills, so I see no reason why Assassins need them. Deaden Nerves should be enough, really.Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »Interesting thought. I may borrow my seeker's sword when I run the tests with restatting, if you would like some raw data to compare with.
If you find anything interesting, let me know. I don't think it'll mean much, though, since it doesn't quite get the asymptotic feel that fists do.0 -
Going for on sin: pwcalc.com/d916f4e82a02e4dd
Currently saved: 0
Total cost: 5 bil
My time: Lulz.0 -
I was able to reasonably do it without any recast gear, so I think the exercise is solved.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 181.8K PWI
- 689 Official Announcements
- 2 Rules of Conduct
- 264 Cabbage Patch Notes
- 61K General Discussion
- 1.5K Quality Corner
- 11K Suggestion Box
- 77.4K Archosaur City
- 3.5K Cash Shop Huddle
- 14.3K Server Symposium
- 18.1K Dungeons & Tactics
- 2K The Crafting Nook
- 4.9K Guild Banter
- 6.6K The Trading Post
- 28K Class Discussion
- 1.9K Arigora Colosseum
- 78 TW & Cross Server Battles
- 337 Nation Wars
- 8.2K Off-Topic Discussion
- 3.7K The Fanatics Forum
- 208 Screenshots and Videos
- 22.8K Support Desk