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Intellectual Exercise

Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
edited March 2012 in Assassin
This is an intellectual exercise only, and not meant to be taken seriously as an actual way to play the game. Furthermore, I know very little about the Assassin class, so please forgive me if this question has an obvious answer.

Can an Assassin perma-spark with a bow, given a good enough genie, gear, and skill usage? If so, what would the attack rate be? Which cultivation (both?)?
Post edited by Elenacostel - Heavens Tear on
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  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    This is an intellectual exercise only, and not meant to be taken seriously as an actual way to play the game. Furthermore, I know very little about the Assassin class, so please forgive me if this question has an obvious answer.

    Can an Assassin perma-spark with a bow, given a good enough genie, gear, and skill usage? If so, what would the attack rate be? Which cultivation (both?)?

    With full interval gear I am base 1 aps and sparked at 1.33 and that is with a 0.05 int bow. Not sure if its even possible to perma spark with a bow.
    Lets troll the forums together b:victory
  • _Perses_ - Lost City_Perses_ - Lost City Posts: 1,917 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Well the highest possible APS (unsparked) with a bow is the base for a fist (1.43) and sparked is 1.82 (If I remember right) which would mean with windshield or something the aps would be like 1.54 or so.

    But basically if the sin has a pair of crappy daggers or something that they can use for inner harmony, tackling slash, and/or rising dragon strike...it is possible they could be a technical perma-spark.
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    But basically if the sin has a pair of crappy daggers or something that they can use for inner harmony, tackling slash, and/or rising dragon strike...it is possible they could be a technical perma-spark.

    That's basically what I'm looking for. Swapping in daggers to cast chi-gain skills and switching back to bow. Given the cooldown for those skills and all, along with Cloud Eruption, is perma-spark possible?

    I suppose we should exclude melee skills, since with a bow you would not be close to the target.
  • Olbaze - SanctuaryOlbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    But accounting any Assassin skills other than Inner Harmony for chi gain is going to make it impractical at the very least, impossible at the most, what with having to go to melee range and away, or risk using the bow in melee range.
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Doesn't entering stealth give a spark?
  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Well the highest possible APS (unsparked) with a bow is the base for a fist (1.43) and sparked is 1.82 (If I remember right) which would mean with windshield or something the aps would be like 1.54 or so.

    But basically if the sin has a pair of crappy daggers or something that they can use for inner harmony, tackling slash, and/or rising dragon strike...it is possible they could be a technical perma-spark.

    Ah yes I see what you are saying now, yes switching out the daggers briefly right after you start or nead the end of a spark you could perma spark with a bow or atleast for a while. I think at 2.86 aps spark with daggers I think you run out of perma spark after 3 to 4 sparks (sit needed :D ) I maybe off with that.

    Also what bow would give a base aps of 1.43 with int gear? just wondering
    Lets troll the forums together b:victory
  • Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,864 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    This is just in theory, but you should at least be able to get close.

    To permaspark you'd need to regain 20 chi a second (300 chi over 15 seconds), I'm disregarding spark casting times here for my own convenience b:chuckle

    A decent genie with 100 MAG and a bit of DEX would regain 230 chi from chi siphon every ~55 seconds = 4.18 chi/sec

    Inner harmony gives you 200 chi every 60 sec = 3.33 chi/sec

    White Tea would give you 200 chi every 60 sec = 3.33 chi/sec

    Rising Dragon Strike would give you 150 chi every 32 sec (chan+cast+cool) = 4.69 chi/sec. Only this requires you to equip daggers and get close to your target, making the use of a bow rather obsolete.

    If you can then get a reasonable 1 APS while demon sparked with a bow, you should get 3.5 chi per second (4 chi/sec minus a bit of wasted time on skill usage) and then you should have:

    3.33+4.18+3.33+4.69+3.5 = 19.03 chi/sec

    So we're just barely short of the needed 20 chi/sec and counting in any lag or other delays it shouldn't be possible to permaspark, but it's pretty close.
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  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    But accounting any Assassin skills other than Inner Harmony for chi gain is going to make it impractical at the very least, impossible at the most, what with having to go to melee range and away, or risk using the bow in melee range.

    Yes I did not take that into account, even with 2 spark pots and harmony, even using WE andWP I doubt it can be done, or run out very quickly.
    Lets troll the forums together b:victory
  • PhantomThief - ArchosaurPhantomThief - Archosaur Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    This is just in theory, but you should at least be able to get close.

    To permaspark you'd need to regain 20 chi a second (300 chi over 15 seconds), I'm disregarding spark casting times here for my own convenience b:chuckle

    A decent genie with 100 MAG and a bit of DEX would regain 230 chi from chi siphon every ~55 seconds = 4.18 chi/sec

    Inner harmony gives you 200 chi every 60 sec = 3.33 chi/sec

    White Tea would give you 200 chi every 60 sec = 3.33 chi/sec

    Rising Dragon Strike would give you 150 chi every 32 sec (chan+cast+cool) = 4.69 chi/sec. Only this requires you to equip daggers and get close to your target, making the use of a bow rather obsolete.

    If you can then get a reasonable 1 APS while demon sparked with a bow, you should get 3.5 chi per second (4 chi/sec minus a bit of wasted time on skill usage) and then you should have:

    3.33+4.18+3.33+4.69+3.5 = 19.03 chi/sec

    So we're just barely short of the needed 20 chi/sec and counting in any lag or other delays it shouldn't be possible to permaspark, but it's pretty close.

    This.

    However, sage Assassin's would have a bit more chi gain potential over demon, having the Master Li's Technique, a chance at gaining 3 sparks with sage Inner Harmony, and an additional 30 chi on Rising Dragon Strike (making it 180, not 150). Though, the channel on Master Li's Technique and the need to get in melee range to use RDS downgrades their usefulness somewhat.

    I only mention this because the OP mentioned culti and I think it can play a small factor here.
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  • _Perses_ - Lost City_Perses_ - Lost City Posts: 1,917 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    That's basically what I'm looking for. Swapping in daggers to cast chi-gain skills and switching back to bow. Given the cooldown for those skills and all, along with Cloud Eruption, is perma-spark possible?

    I suppose we should exclude melee skills, since with a bow you would not be close to the target.
    Well...considering there are multiple optiosn to get chi..

    2 spark pot is a 60 second cooldown, Inner Harmony (excluding Tackling Slash and Rising Dragon since they are melee range), cloud erupt.....I would think a theoritical point of view it would be possible.

    As for implementing the idea in the game...I wish you luck as it would be very hard in my personal opinion as the best I can get back after using a triple spark is about a spark and a half and that is starting with 399 chi. :/
    Doesn't entering stealth give a spark?
    Yes it does, but I don't believe you can use that with a bow equiped...but with the daggers it does add an extra way to get chi. Since shadow escape (the skill your thinking of) gives a single spark on entering stealth. Though the cooldown is a bit longer than anything else.
    Ah yes I see what you are saying now, yes switching out the daggers briefly right after you start or nead the end of a spark you could perma spark with a bow or atleast for a while. I think at 2.86 aps spark with daggers I think you run out of perma spark after 3 to 4 sparks (sit needed :D ) I maybe off with that.

    Also what bow would give a base aps of 1.43 with int gear? just wondering

    Any bow that has -.1 on it (Heaven Shatter, R9 bow, Crafted bow) would allow you to hit 1.43 with all other -interval gear equiped.

    But now that I think about it....if you include the r8 recast you have another possible -.15 so actually you might be able to hit 2.00 or a bit above if you can roll -.15 on the boots and chest...


    So right now with my thinking...the interval is..
    -.15 (r8 recast chest) + -.15 (r8 recast boots) + -.1 (Twilight or NV Wrists) + -.1 (Heaven Shatter or a Crafted bow with -.1) + -.05 (Tome) + -.05 (cape) -.05 (lionheart neck + belt combo) + -.05 (NV Pants) = 0.7 total....(Up to 0.75 if you find a bow that has -.15 on it instead of -.1)

    So a bow's base attack speed is 0.67.. ugh >.<...WTB> Math cleric or archer to figure this part out T_T

    Basically from 0.67 the attack speed increase should put somebody near 2.00 or above it..but Idk how much it would exactly be and w/o pwcalc up it's hurting my brain trying to figure it out T_T
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I thought apothecaries have 2 minute cooldowns, not 1 minute.
  • _Perses_ - Lost City_Perses_ - Lost City Posts: 1,917 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    All of the pots i've used have a 1 minute to 1:30 cooldown, never had any with a 2 minute nor have I encountered any with it.
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  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    _Perses_ wrote:

    Any bow that has -.1 on it (Heaven Shatter, R9 bow, Crafted bow) would allow you to hit 1.43 with all other -interval gear equiped.

    hmm, even with a .1 int bow that would only put me at 1.05 base aps with full int gear, what am I missing on this


    for reference

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=279561
    Lets troll the forums together b:victory
  • PhantomThief - ArchosaurPhantomThief - Archosaur Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    hmm, even with a .1 int bow that would only put me at 1.05 base aps with full int gear, what am I missing on this


    for reference

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=279561

    TT99 LA Writs + TT99 LA Boots = -.15
    TT99 HA Neck + TT99 HA Belt = -.05
    Recast LA NV Pants = -.05
    R8 Chest = -.1
    Tome = -.05
    Bow = -.1 (Heaven Shatterer)

    That should get you to what everyone else has come up with.
    A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.
  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    TT99 LA Writs + TT99 LA Boots = -.15
    TT99 HA Neck + TT99 HA Belt = -.05
    Recast LA NV Pants = -.05
    R8 Chest = -.1
    Tome = -.05
    Bow = -.1 (Heaven Shatterer)

    That should get you to what everyone else has come up with.


    With heaven Shatter's .067 attack and -.10 int rate your build puts it at 1 aps according to the aps chart on the archer forums. Add in the the int cape you did not list that i have puts me at 1.05 base aps, which is one .05 int faster than I am with a .05 int bow.
    Lets troll the forums together b:victory
  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    All of the pots i've used have a 1 minute to 1:30 cooldown, never had any with a 2 minute nor have I encountered any with it.

    Oh, I compared with Death River Toxin which has 2 minute cooldown.

    If White Tea is 1 minute cooldown I think it's possible to almost perma-spark with an assassin.
  • _Perses_ - Lost City_Perses_ - Lost City Posts: 1,917 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I need pwcalc to be back up, makes my task of adding together interval to be easier...


    But I might of mixed up the unsparked and sparked attack speed. I know 1.43 is the highest I have ever gotten with -int + bow so it might of been under a demon spark but idr really. It's been a long time since i've bothered with using a bow and interval gear together.

    Elenacostel: Yeah I have never seen a White Tea take longer than a minute to get off CD (mainly because I use to spam them as much as possible in TW so I could just do my bell + marrows as I ran and could stun + dragons right off the bat)
    Nothing worthwhile to mention here, enjoy the animated signature~

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  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I need pwcalc to be back up, makes my task of adding together interval to be easier...


    But I might of mixed up the unsparked and sparked attack speed. I know 1.43 is the highest I have ever gotten with -int + bow so it might of been under a demon spark but idr really. It's been a long time since i've bothered with using a bow and interval gear together.

    Elenacostel: Yeah I have never seen a White Tea take longer than a minute to get off CD (mainly because I use to spam them as much as possible in TW so I could just do my bell + marrows as I ran and could stun + dragons right off the bat)

    That might be my confusion, when I hear base aps, that tells me unsparked aps, when I hear sparked aps, I come to think of that as well spark b:chuckle. But lol i think that is the confusion,I think in the context base aps was indeed meaning to be sparked asp
    Lets troll the forums together b:victory
  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I need pwcalc to be back up, makes my task of adding together interval to be easier...


    But I might of mixed up the unsparked and sparked attack speed. I know 1.43 is the highest I have ever gotten with -int + bow so it might of been under a demon spark but idr really. It's been a long time since i've bothered with using a bow and interval gear together.

    Elenacostel: Yeah I have never seen a White Tea take longer than a minute to get off CD (mainly because I use to spam them as much as possible in TW so I could just do my bell + marrows as I ran and could stun + dragons right off the bat)

    The 1.43 is probaly sparked, with my .05 int bow I hit around 1.3x another .05 int would put me at te 1.43 mark
    Lets troll the forums together b:victory
  • Olbaze - SanctuaryOlbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Any bow that has -.1 on it (Heaven Shatter, R9 bow, Crafted bow) would allow you to hit 1.43 with all other -interval gear equiped.

    But that's only true for Demon Spark. And I'm pretty sure that Sage would be better for this case, since Sages have a better RDS and better IH in terms of chi gain.
    But now that I think about it....if you include the r8 recast you have another possible -.15 so actually you might be able to hit 2.00 or a bit above if you can roll -.15 on the boots and chest...

    Not even close, actually. The total -interval from Wrists, Ornaments, Cape, Tome and Bow is -0.35. Add to that -0.4 from R8 recast (-0.15 on chest and boots, -0.1 as set bonus) and you're down to -0.75. Bows start at just double that, or 1.5, so we're left with 0.75. That is, 1.33 aps unsparked. Spark and you're down to 1.82.

    1.82 aps isn't even close to being enough for any kind of permasparking, no matter what you try.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Can someone tell me the cooldown of God's Tea and whether or not you need to be part of a land-owning faction to craft it?
  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Can someone tell me the cooldown of God's Tea and whether or not you need to be part of a land-owning faction to craft it?

    Either land owning or have a base, but no idea other than that, all I can make is 1.5 sparks with lvl 7 craft at apo
    Lets troll the forums together b:victory
  • Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,864 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Can someone tell me the cooldown of God's Tea and whether or not you need to be part of a land-owning faction to craft it?

    You don't need to own land to craft God's Tea (150 chi), but you do need land to craft White Tea (200 chi). No idea about the cooldown actually, but I guess it's indeed 2 mins like other apoths (made an error in my last post).
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    You don't need to own land to craft God's Tea (150 chi), but you do need land to craft White Tea (200 chi). No idea about the cooldown actually, but I guess it's indeed 2 mins like other apoths (made an error in my last post).

    Wait, Perses said that the cooldown of White Tea is 1 minute, and you say "2 mins like other apoths". When you say "other apoths" that would imply White Tea is also 2 minutes.

    I'm so confused...
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    All apothecary has a 2 minute cooldown, there are no exceptions I can think of.

    Nowitsawn has the best analysis although firing a bow at 1.33 aps generates 6.66 chi per second for 15 seconds. You need 3 sparks every 18 seconds basically to maintain a normal spark cycle so

    Target = 300 / 18 = 16.66 chi/sec


    Firing bow = 6.66 chi per sec * 15/18 = 5.55 chi/s
    Inner Harmoney = 2spark / 60 = 3.33 chi/sec
    100 mag genie chi siphon = 2 spark * 3/166 = 3.6 chi/sec
    white tea = 2spark /120 = 1.66
    shadow escape = 1spark / 90 = 1.11 chi/s

    total = 15.25 chi/sec

    Thats pretty close and doesnt use rising dragon strike or tackling slash. If you add 1.5 seconds of down time every spark cycle for doing a dagger skill before the 3 second downtime of spark burst you can permaspark.
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Culivation: Demon


    Equipment:

    Bow: Seraphic Shooter: Sky - new PvE bow with +60 Slaying Levels. This bow has no -interval stat. Alternatively, you can use Nirvana 2nd cast, which is comparable to R8 bow.

    Equipment: No R8 recasts. Standard -interval equipment: R8 Chest, Nirvana Legs, LA Wrist, LA set bonus, HA set bonus, Tome, Cape.


    Skills / Chi Gain:
    Chi Gain    Cooldown    Execution Time  Technique Name
    +200 Chi    060 sec     001             Inner Harmony
    +100 Chi    075 sec     003             Shadow Escape (Demon)
    +200 Chi    056 sec     001             Chi Siphon (level 10)
    +200 Chi    120 sec     001             White Tea
    +010 Chi    060 sec     001             Wolf's Emblem
    


    Timing:

    - 0.95 a/s unsparked
    - 1.18 a/s sparked
    - I estimate switching weapons to be 1 second
    - I estimate using apothecary to be 1 second (it pauses any auto-attack).
    - I estimate casting Inner Harmony and Wolf's Emblem to be 1 second since it pauses any auto-attack (please confirm). I recognize they "cast instantly", but if you cannot attack while casting them, then 1 second is a reasonable execution time.


    Attack Cycle:
    Current Chi     Time Elapsed    Event
    300 Chi         000 sec         Start
    000 Chi         003 sec         Triple Spark
    200 Chi         003 sec         Chi Siphon
    285 Chi         018 sec         17 sparked attacks
    290 Chi         020 sec         1 regular attack
    290 Chi         021 sec         Equip Daggers
    300 Chi         022 sec         Wolf's Emblem
    000 Chi         025 sec         Triple Spark / Equip Bow
    085 Chi         040 sec         17 sparked attacks
    085 Chi         041 sec         Equip Daggers
    285 Chi         042 sec         Inner Harmony
    285 Chi         043 sec         Equip Bow
    300 Chi         047 sec         3 regular attacks
    000 Chi         050 sec         Triple Spark
    085 Chi         065 sec         17 sparked attacks
    100 Chi         069 sec         3 regular attacks
    100 Chi         070 sec         Equip Daggers
    200 Chi         073 sec         Shadow Escape
    200 Chi         074 sec         Equip Bow
    400 Chi         075 sec         White Tea
    --  75 second mid-point --
    400 Chi         075 sec         Start
    100 Chi         078 sec         Triple Spark
    300 Chi         078 sec         Chi Siphon
    385 Chi         093 sec         17 sparked attacks
    390 Chi         095 sec         1 regular attack
    390 Chi         096 sec         Equip Daggers
    400 Chi         097 sec         Wolf's Emblem
    100 Chi         100 sec         Triple Spark / Equip Bow
    185 Chi         115 sec         17 sparked attacks
    185 Chi         116 sec         Equip Daggers
    385 Chi         117 sec         Inner Harmony
    385 Chi         118 sec         Equip Bow
    400 Chi         122 sec         3 regular attacks
    100 Chi         125 sec         Triple Spark
    185 Chi         140 sec         17 sparked attacks
    200 Chi         144 sec         3 regular attacks
    200 Chi         145 sec         Equip Daggers
    300 Chi         148 sec         Shadow Escape
    300 Chi         149 sec         Equip Bow
    300 Chi         150 sec         1 second due to player lag
    

    About 88% of the attacks are sparked. With a Nirvana bow with -interval, it will be an even greater percentage.

    At the midpoint, each of the chi gain techniques is used only once. The second half is identical to the first, but has no use of White Tea. Thus, White Tea is used once in the 150 second cycle.


    Now to wait for pwcalc.com to come back up to see who does more damage - this type of assassin or an archer with the same bow and equipment. I may have to go on a rampage if drugged up assassins can be better archers than non-R9 archers. To compare them, Archers get Bow Mastery and Blazing Arrow. Assassins get more attacks that are sparked which is both a damage boost and an attack speed boost b/c of Demon spark. Furthermore, Assassins get Wolf's Emblem to help increase damage.
  • sachelfunlolsachelfunlol Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Very nice, but as to your question, I doubt a sin can out dd a archer with same build/gear and bow, we do not have the bow mastery, which is the same reason a fist/claw sins fails with the dmg ability(aside of different stat req), no fist/clawl mastery. Archers have that edge, all we have is is the dex multiplier and triple spark.
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Very nice, but as to your question, I doubt a sin can out dd a archer with same build/gear and bow, we do not have the bow mastery, which is the same reason a fist/claw sins fails with the dmg ability(aside of different stat req), no fist/clawl mastery. Archers have that edge, all we have is is the dex multiplier and triple spark.

    Archers cannot maintain triple spark as often as the sequence of events above. That's the key; instead of Bow Mastery and Blazing Arrow, assassins essentially get an extra spark cycle every 75 seconds or so.

    EDIT: And apparently I did not know the existence of Wolf Emblem. Someone tell me the description at ecatomb.net is incorrect, or perhaps it's bugged?
  • PhantomThief - ArchosaurPhantomThief - Archosaur Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    EDIT: And apparently I did not know the existence of Wolf Emblem. Someone tell me the description at ecatomb.net is incorrect, or perhaps it's bugged?

    Um, Wolf Emblem increases crit damage by 30% at lvl 10, 20% as sage (lasts for 30 minutes though), and 40% as demon.

    I do remember a debate going on about whether it was actually increased crit damage or crit chance. I don't remember what the final decision was.

    I'll do a check test.

    Wolf Emblem increases crit damage, not crit chance. I don't think its bugged.
    A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Wolf Emblem increases crit damage, not crit chance. I don't think its bugged.

    I assumed Rage Damage is Attack Level. Is that incorrect?

    What's the chi gain for casting it?
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