undine overrated

AgentPotato - Archosaur

-no trolling/flaming intended here, I'm genuinely curious-

After pk'ing the other night vs a wizard, and not being undined even once in 5-6 fights, I asked the player why they never undined me, and was told by a spectating wizzie that undine is overrated. The logic was that you could potentially replace undine with another damage dealing skill in the time it takes to channel and cast undine.

I have a lvl 95 wiz that I'm fairly quickly leveling to 100, and am curious what the rest of the wizzie community thinks about the utility of undine in pk.

Edit: blah, this was supposed to end up in the wizzie forums, but I mis-posted.

Jhalil - Heavens Tear

Undine is situational, I wouldn't use undine on someone that I know I could take care of with a gush/pyro combo. However if you need to bypass someone's charm or they have too much HP for you to go through in between charm ticks then undine is your best friend.

Daemon_Imp - Lost City

well if he knew that a non-undined nuke would easily bypass your charm i guess maybe it wasnt worth it for him...?

on a side note for pve it is not worth it to undine if you are the only wiz (and no other psy/wiz) in squad

dont think undine is *that* overrated tho...

AgentPotato - Archosaur

The situation was: I have full R9 8.5k hp, 15 JoSD, and 7 Vit stones, wizard has full R9 wep +10.

Evanera - Heavens Tear

If he's not undining you with your gear, he needs to roll a new class or learn to use undine.

End of story.

LiquidAcid - Lost City

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

The situation was: I have full R9 8.5k hp, 15 JoSD, and 7 Vit stones, wizard has full R9 wep +10.

Seems that wizzy is a frost baby. b:bye

AgentPotato - Archosaur

Skill of the wizzy isnt the issue I started the thread about... its been hashed over too many times already.

So far it seems people think undine is worth the extra casting time it takes in an archer/wiz fight?

ICasTBiDS - Raging Tide

yes. undine is always worth it

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If he's not undining you with your gear, he needs to roll a new class or learn to use undine.

End of story.

Little piece of the story - his r9 is like +3 atm.

Da wiz is yours truly

I beat him the first 3 in a row out of 4 times while he got full chi each time (he pretty much only killed me when he kited long enough for his bow to purge me - out of 4 purges, I escaped 2 and died on 2) and I had full chi only twice - and I usually gave him the first hit hoping each time he wasn't coming back for more because I didn't want to 1 vs 1 him at all - he has a history of being dull, I out geared him fairly well, and I pretty much despise 1 vs 1 against another kiting class. So no, situationally if you want to call it that, I didn't need to undine him.

If you want to see the difference undine makes, I am happy to show it to you. Just realize that you only get to land like 3 or 4 skills on you at most - and the damage difference between 3 skills and undine and 4 skills without undine isn't much - that it can tick your charm when you don't want your charm ticked, etc.

Glad to hear you are making a wizard. You will see how fun they can be - and how op archers are vs them.

I also debuffed him with glacial snare, divine pyro and genie spark. People usually don't see those debuffs as easily as they see undine. Apparently, he didn't.

I usually don't debuff aps or high stunning classes with undine. Undine + gush will tick his charm (at which point he would kite or immune or stun) whereas just gush will set him up to charm bypass.

And I don't know that the point of the bystander wiz was necessarily that undine is overrated by everyone - just that it was being overrated by Agent when he was seemingly shocked that I didn't use it.

Maybe think of it this way, agent: your bow debuffs me for 120% - 150% of my pdef when it purges - undine does basically a third of that. I can see why you think debuffing is so great, but honestly undine is not really necessary all the time.

If you want to see the difference undine makes, I am glad to show it to you. All you had to do was ask. And I am glad you are making a wizard. You will see how fun they are. And how op archer are against them.

EDIT: Look at Hard's video here: youtube.com/user/HardToYawn?blend=1&ob=video-mustangbase

She uses undine only like half a dozen times, never against an archer, rarely against another LA toon, and of the dozen or more kills shown here, she only ended up having them debuffed like twice when she finally killed them. The rest of the kills she actually killed them without the undine debuffs in place.

AgentPotato - Archosaur

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

And I don't know that the point of the bystander wiz was necessarily that undine is overrated by everyone - just that it was being overrated by Agent when he was seemingly shocked that I didn't use it.

Maybe think of it this way, agent: your bow debuffs me for 120% - 150% of my pdef when it purges - undine does basically a third of that. I can see why you think debuffing is so great, but honestly undine is not really necessary all the time.

I wasn't shocked, it was you after all, but I did think it was stupid. I'm just trying to find a good reason for you not using it and giving you the benefit of the doubt. And in your case, my bow purge is 120% of your pdef in a self buffed fight. Undine is half of that, not a third. My purge is not always there when I need it; undine is spammable. My purge does not stack, undine stacks with spark, and is a better debuff and faster than d. pyrogram (which is nullified by an anti fire genie, but hey, wipe my genie and I'm pretty much a goner).

Considering that your undine is equivalent to purging me if I had cleric buffs, and knowing the value of a purge, I'm beginning to have even a harder time seeing the point of not using it...

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

It depends how well you are buffed and whats your HP is really. Undine can have varying effects depending on the situation. Making rules like "always start off with Undine" will land a wiz in trouble especially if they become predictable.

Sympathi - Archosaur

AgentBrotato likes undie pants b:sin

Cursed been killing you again?

Proski - Archosaur

i made the comment and I stand behind it lol, but what I said was gathered from my several years of experience pking as an undergeared wizard vs better geared archers. (by this I mean 5k hp, 5.5 pdef self buffed, the classic wizard stats of most non csed or very partially csed wizards). verse around moderate to good csed archers (10k hp ish with vit stones, +10-11 r9 bow to my +10-11 r9 wep)


its because force of will has a **** animation, so by the time you can cast anything after it, you don't really even have that many seconds of a kitable silence left to take advantage of vs a class that can hit you 3-4x (after demon quick shot) with half your hp rolling off you per hit while you're stunned lol. and before someone says badge of courage or fortify, you already can't read. any undergeared wizard knows how much more valuable saving energy for the big two is

undine is never worth casting on an archer when the archer out gears you. I'll never have full r9, full g11 gems, or jades, so I can't speak about it in that scenario, where you have the survivability to react with the knowledge that death isnt always 3-4 seconds away, and you instead have some wiggle room to be creative with. but in my scenario, and every other wizard that doesn't post videos, its because our only chance is timing and positioning (which is why i too enjoy tw and large scale pk over 1v1s as a wizard), we already have the damage capability to kill archers regardless, and using a 'debuff' that takes away even one second from a potential sutra sage dp bt combo (sage dp lowers fire res anyway) will just get you stunning arrowed or 2-3 shot. the multiplier doesn't out weigh what you can do with 1.5 seconds (or just using it to run and get your genie back up), timing is everythingggggg vs a class that can stun you, absorb a couple k, kite you, or straight up just become immune to you more frequently.

but to be honest pretty much everybody that writes about pvp on forums just theorycrafts anyway lol. glad to see you are guna try a wizard, you can see for yourself. hell, ill even let you play my wizard vs zhadi's archer and you can practice all you want. thats a scenario that, unless you plan on csing gear for your wizard, youll probably find yourself in regularly lol

Savor - Lost City

GM needs to move this to the proper subforum. GTFO Lost City.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

And in your case, my bow purge is 120% of your pdef in a self buffed fight. Undine is half of that, not a third.

I had cleric buffs too - care to recalculate? It is you, after all.

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

My purge is not always there when I need it; undine is spammable. My purge does not stack, undine stacks with spark, and is a better debuff and faster than d. pyrogram (which is nullified by an anti fire genie, but hey, wipe my genie and I'm pretty much a goner).

Yes, because thats what a wizard should be doing: spamming debuffs.

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

Considering that your undine is equivalent to purging me if I had cleric buffs, and knowing the value of a purge, I'm beginning to have even a harder time seeing the point of not using it...

I don't think I can explain it more clearly than I have. Go back and reread - this time with an open mind instead of trying to find some reason why I fail - when I didn't, in fact, fail.

Then 1 vs 1 zhadi on your wiz in TT90 gear and you tell me how many skills you hit after that debuff, k?

Then, pretend there are 2 of him vs 1 of you in your TT90 gear, and you will know what I was pking against for those many months.

krisnda

Moved to proper place.

AgentPotato - Archosaur

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I had cleric buffs too - care to recalculate? It is you, after all.

In that case the total buffs on you was 180% phys def, not 150, or 120... but I wasn't going to point that out, unless you said something, which you so surprisingly did...

I'm not going to discuss with you the merits of undining, we already did that to no one's benefit. b:shutup

Thanks for moving the thread. b:thanks

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

In that case the total buffs on you was 180% phys def, not 150, or 120... but I wasn't going to point that out, unless you said something, which you so surprisingly did...

I'm not going to discuss with you the merits of undining, we already did that to no one's benefit. b:shutup

Thanks for moving the thread. b:thanks

So you proved that your bow purge is even more beneficial than my undine? Way to make my argument for me. Thanks, Agent!

And if its not to your benefit, its because you don't read carefully or with understanding. Maybe this will make it easier:

I beat you 3 in a row without undine. How important could it have been.

Simple enough?

AgentPotato - Archosaur

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

So you proved that your bow purge is even more beneficial than my undine? Way to make my argument for me. Thanks, Agent!

You're making an irrelevant argument. I never argued that purge was less beneficial than undine. Never. You were the one that introduced this 'argument'. But you're welcome for correcting your incorrect buff %'s... all I'm after is the truth, you know.

You beat me like half the times we fought, and after those first three, you still didn't use undine. Even after the third time, you still didn't use undine except to pull a BLOODMYSTIC (i.e. drop out of the sky, undine, frenzy, ulti, apoth, distance shrink

---

> SZ) Those last three deaths were the ones that made me scratch my head a little harder than usual...

Edit: dont remember how many times total we fought, but I'm pretty sure(?) I killed you three times

UIquiorra_ - Lost City

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I beat him the first 3 in a row out of 4 times while he got full chi each time (he pretty much only killed me when he kited long enough for his bow to purge me - out of 4 purges, I escaped 2 and died on 2)

Here's where the math doesn't add up...
You beat him 3 out of 4 times but died to 2 purges... Wouldn't that mean that you only beat him twice? Check you're math dude.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

You're making an irrelevant argument. I never argued that purge was less beneficial than undine. Never. You were the one that introduced this 'argument'. But you're welcome for correcting your incorrect buff %'s... all I'm after is the truth, you know.

You beat me like half the times we fought, and after those first three, you still didn't use undine. Even after the third time, you still didn't use undine except to pull a BLOODMYSTIC (i.e. drop out of the sky, undine, frenzy, ulti, apoth, distance shrink

---

> SZ) Those last three deaths were the ones that made me scratch my head a little harder than usual...

Edit: dont remember how many times total we fought, but I'm pretty sure(?) I killed you three times

As for correct buff percentages - now that we are on the right forums - these people know me. I don't pay attention to game math. I've been quite honest with them about that before. The point is, you make my argument stronger. And I thank you.

As for me winning half the time, lol. We 1 vs 1 exactly 4 times. The first time you came out without warning and stunned me, and I beat you.

The second time I saw you coming, had no chi, and still beat you.

The third time I knew you would be back, had chi, and facerolled you in like 4 seconds.

The forth time we kited each other for like 5 minutes and you purged me and won.

The next kill (5th) we were talking about your amazement that a wizard with better gear than me and a better genie than me and 4 levels higher than me was harder to kill and you just decided to attack, purged me and killed me.

The 6th time I came in to nuke you and kite away, hoping to tick you off. Glad to see it worked.

As I said on another thread, you people that say I am fail but constantly want to put your junk up next to mine to measure - you look just plain foolish. You all think that I think I'm the best - but I have never said anything close to it. You all do apparently, though. If anyone does, you are the ones that give me the reputation of being the best. Not me. Maybe its because you hear people scream in vent "can someone kill BLOODMYSTIC". Or maybe you were in Immunity when I was kiting like 5 of them and their leader was screaming in vent "someone get out here and stun lock BLOODMYSTIC". Or maybe there are other examples that didn't make their way to my ears, I dunno. I just play how I play - and that is whatever is fun at the moment.

So you all go on. Make sure you get to +12, make sure you get your 17 base buffs and your apoth and your magic charms, etc. And you all come out and jump me from behind and gank me and challenge me to 1 vs 1s all you want. I'll still be there, usually with just stonebarrier on, chi pots and little else. You left for many months, and now you are back. Welcome back. But I was here then, and am here now. And I will be here in the future. And your opinion or anyone else's of me has nothing whatsoever to do with why I play this game.

You should try it sometime. Its quite liberating. Shame people with your ego rarely do.

AgentPotato - Archosaur

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

As for correct buff percentages - now that we are on the right forums - these people know me. I don't pay attention to game math. I've been quite honest with them about that before. The point is, you make my argument stronger. And I thank you.

As for me winning half the time, lol. We 1 vs 1 exactly 4 times. The first time you came out without warning and stunned me, and I beat you.

The second time I saw you coming, had no chi, and still beat you.

The third time I knew you would be back, had chi, and facerolled you in like 4 seconds.

The forth time we kited each other for like 5 minutes and you purged me and won.

The next kill (5th) we were talking about your amazement that a wizard with better gear than me and a better genie than me and 4 levels higher than me was harder to kill and you just decided to attack, purged me and killed me.

The 6th time I came in to nuke you can kite away, hoping to tick you off. Glad to see it worked.

As I said on another thread, you people that say I am fail but constantly want to put your junk up next to mine to measure look just plain foolish. As I said on another thread, you people that say I am fail but constantly want to put your junk up next to mine to measure - you look just plain foolish. You all think that I think I'm the best - but I have never said anything close to it. You all do apparently, though. If anyone does, you are the ones that give me the reputation of being the best. Not me. Maybe its because you hear people scream in vent "can someone kill BLOODMYSTIC". Or maybe you were in Immunity when I was kiting like 5 of them and their leader was screaming in vent "someone get out here and stun lock BLOODMYSTIC". Or maybe there are other examples that didn't make their way to my ears, I dunno. I just play how I play - and that is whatever is fun at the moment.

So you all go on. Make sure you get to +12, make sure you get your 17 base buffs and your apoth and your magic charms, etc. And you all come out and jump me from behind and gank me and challenge me to 1 vs 1s all you want. I'll still be there, usually with just stonebarrier on, chi pots and little else. You left for many months, and now you are back. Welcome back. But I was here then, and am here now. And I will be here in the future. And your opinion or anyone else's of me has nothing whatsoever to do with why I play this game.

You should try it sometime. Its quite liberating. Shame people with your ego rarely do.

This thread was not intended to discuss the fights between me and you, it was about the comment proski made regarding the overratededness of undine. I purposely didn't mention names, so as to keep it objective. I am not 'ticked off' in the slightest, I am merely replying to insinuations/implications made by you about me, as well as incorrect facts presented by you that I know to be wrong.

Any logical person here, knowing both of us, would know I would never let my junk within in hundred yards of your junk. The closest I ever get to your junk, sir, are those weekends I volunteer at nursing homes or venture into a hospital with a geriatric ward. b:thanks

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

This thread was not intended to discuss the fights between me and you, it was about the comment proski made regarding the overratededness of undine.

Um, this forum, as well as the Archosaur forums, belong to me, good sir, whenever I want them.

After I suffered you the pleasure of your 1 vs 1s, you mouthed off in general chat that "oh yes, cursed is much harded to kill than BLOODMYSTIC" - and just when I thought we were maybe going to be able to get along so well.

So I chose to answer you here, on both counts. As well as provide explainations to my fellow forum members as to why I, at least, didn't undine you. You left out the fact that you lost 3 in a row to me, which is certainly relevant to the "story" of whether it was in error to not use undine against you.

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

Any logical person here, knowing both of us, would know I would never let my junk within in hundred yards of your junk. The closest I ever get to your junk, sir, are those weekends I volunteer at nursing homes or venture into a hospital with a geriatric ward. b:thanks

I am sorry, but that is exactly what you did last night. And what Dai Viper has been begging to do. And what Mango and liaz and BDoomed and Tivas and and and and and countless others have tried to do since I picked up my sensoid and started to pvp lo so many months ago.

You can't call me fail AND at the very same time try to use me as the standard by which you benchmark yourself. And, if anything, coming to my forums does nothing but lend me more credibility (for example, Dai just said today on another post said I don't pk anymore, and here you are proving that we danced just last night b:pleased) with this crowd, of course only to the extent that they do not think all of us on arch (you included) are horrible because we are on a pve server - which they do, lol.

So again, agent, if you have any questions, I am happy to answer them for you. And demonstrate them. You think undine is so great - I am happy to show you the damage difference. And even more happy to watch you try to undine Zhadi when your wizard gets his tt90 gear. Though, I won't hold my breath there either.

AgentPotato - Archosaur

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Um, this forum, as well as the Archosaur forums, belong to me, good sir, whenever I want them.

After I suffered you the pleasure of your 1 vs 1s, you mouthed off in general chat that "oh yes, cursed is much harded to kill than BLOODMYSTIC" - and just when I thought we were maybe going to be able to get along so well.

So I chose to answer you here, on both counts. As well as provide explainations to my fellow forum members as to why I, at least, didn't undine you. You left out the fact that you lost 3 in a row to me, which is certainly relevant to the "story" of whether it was in error to not use undine against you.



I am sorry, but that is exactly what you did last night. You can't call me fail AND at the very same time try to use me as the standard by which you benchmark yourself.

After first asking in common chat why you didn't use undine, and after being told that it was overrated, I then proceeded to explain why I thought it was not overrated by using the example of cursed, who, yes, outgears you, but as I said, removed his neck, his R9 belt, his R9 ring, and his R8 ring while fighting me. You seemingly took it personally (well, something got to you anyways, you've never felt the need to call me a fa.ggot in common chat before), when I never mentioned a word about your skill, neither there, nor here. I know you are not the best wizard around, I know you don't think you are, and I know almost everyone else agrees with myself, and with you. I also know that because you outgeared me, and were buffed while I was unbuffed, I felt absolutely nothing wrong with reaquainting myself to pvp in unannounced fights against you, seeing as how I've been gone these past few months. After all, you facerolled me the first few times, obviously I was outmatched.

The only reason I attack you without warning these days is because you have clearly told me you will never agree to a 1v1 with me. What do you expect me to do? You just expect me to stand still while you accuse me of being dull and boring in common chat? Logically, the only response to that is to bring you a little excitement. And since your pretty red name was standing right next to my pure white one as you were insulting me, I still see nothing wrong with attacking you without warning (gasp).

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

After first asking in common chat why you didn't use undine, and after being told that it was overrated, I then proceeded to explain why I thought it was not overrated by using the example of cursed

Nice try, but using undine has little to do with how easy someone is to kill. They were 2 separate things. You did it to try to deminish me, and perhaps save face at being beaten 3 out of 4, who knows.

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

You seemingly took it personally (well, something got to you anyways, you've never felt the need to call me a fa.ggot in common chat before)

again, nice try. I didn't say that out of the comparison to cursed. God knows I get compared to him so often its evokes a yawn from me, not anger. Again, its like those of your kind on the server are so glad to see a wizard that out gears me (as though those haven't existed before, lol) and hail him as the messiah to prove I am not good.

No, the comparisons are commonplace and banal. Rather than the comparison to cursed, I said that when you killed me after we were apparently finished fighting and having our "discussion". And yes, I asked if doing that made you feel like a man - because I could think of little other reason to do it. It wasn't a simple school yard slur. I was actually wondering if perhaps you think you feel the need to compensate for your sexual preference and prove your masculinity? Who knows.

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

The only reason I attack you without warning these days is because you have clearly told me you will never agree to a 1v1 with me.

First of all, that was many, many months ago, long before you left, and long before anyone had any rank gear (well, except Zhadi). And in fact I did 1 vs 1 you in my TT90 gear prior to that. And lost. You had me outgeared fairly well then, so no, I didn't 1 vs 1 you after that. I saw no need.

Second, you never asked for a 1 vs 1 this time. I may or may not have agreed to it, I don't know. I certainly allowed for those fights last night - as you saw the last time when you tried to cut me off from safety zone, I can pretty much escape you at will. But the reason I don't 1 vs 1 you and your kind now is simple, and has less to do with gear and more to do with the type of people you are. You make everything a comparison. You can't just make it about fun. You make it about your ego, and who you can gank, and who you can beat, and who is fail and who is pro and blah blah blah. It bores me. And always has. Literally, if the ignore list would make us invisible to each other, I would have you all on it. I prefer to play the game without your juvenile challenges, without your moronic comparisons.

You all like to sniff cursed's jock so much, ask yourself this - have you ever heard him say someone is fail, or a bad player, or anything else? Take some of that in instead. Emulate him there and you might, just maybe, be respected 1/10th as much. He isn't respected because of his gear, or his ability (since he has posted his videos, I have had half a dozen people tell me he spends more time kiting than killing - even dai viper on these very forums criticized some of what he is doing as the mark of an "unskilled" wizard). He is respected because he doesn't run is mouth just to stroke his own ego. Again, you should give it a try sometime.

Evanera - Heavens Tear

I was going to go in depth about how/when to use undine properly but now I think I'll just pass.

AgentPotato - Archosaur

I'm not going to address anything you said, because I know you will only write more and more that is untrue or assumed. Again, I repeat, this thread was not started as a bash BM thread, please don't keep pushing it down that path with irrelevant remarks. Thanks!

On topic... basically what you're saying is you think undine is situational and you prefer to use debuffs that come with glacial snare and pygrogram?

AgentPotato - Archosaur

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I was going to go in depth about how/when to use undine properly but now I think I'll just pass.

b:thanks please indulge me

HardToThink - Lost City

Blood would you please stop turning every single thread into an e-peen sword fight.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

HardToThink - Lost City wrote: »

Blood would you please stop turning every single thread into an e-peen sword fight.

Sorry brah, but they keep coming at me. He may not have named me in the post, but there are plenty who knew exactly to whom he was referring. And to present it as though I don't undine when I need to? When I beat him 3 out of 4 times without it? Nah, sorry, I'm gonna respond.

And stop telling me how to post on my forums, k?

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm not going to address anything you said, because I know you will only write more and more that is untrue or assumed. Again, I repeat, this thread was not started as a bash BM thread, please don't keep pushing it down that path with irrelevant remarks. Thanks!

I disagree with this entirely.

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

On topic... basically what you're saying is you think undine is situational and you prefer to use debuffs that come with glacial snare and pygrogram?

More than that. That advice is the same "well, it depends on your playstyle" cop out people use for everything. I don't give that type of advice. It is useless.

What I am saying is this - of course, against any given opponent - if you have the time, use it by all means.

But if you don't need to undine to win, of course its better not to. Use a damage skill. Its much more important to accurately judge how to get someone in position to bypass their charm.

And moreover, in my experience at least, against aps classes or heavy stunning classes (excluding bm's if you have a good fortify genie or can afford to use vacuity for your apoth), you have to feel it out a little, but generally you are better off not using it.

As someone else posted above

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Making rules like "always start off with Undine" will land a wiz in trouble . . . .