NV G13 or R8 daggers?

Empu - Sanctuary

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Really, both of you guys should go roll a sage sin on a fresh new account, so you can't transfer any bound gear from old mains and without the billions of coins you already have on them. Go sage with R8 dagg and go farm your 4 aps, come back later and tell me how that feels/works, ok?

That is exactly where I come from. The only down-side I ever had of being "low aps" was ppl like you thinking you can't do anything without 4 or 5 aps. Then again, I'm not interested in squadding up with aps-idiots anyway.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is exactly where I come from. The only down-side I ever had of being "low aps" was ppl like you thinking you can't do anything without 4 or 5 aps. Then again, I'm not interested in squadding up with aps-idiots anyway.

I was 2.5 aps with +6 R8 until recently. Had I not upgraded to G13, I would now most likely be looking at 2.86 +10 R8. I went for G13 not because I figure I'll be able to maintain a permaspark easier, but because I figured I'll be able to use skills like Power Dash more freely and spark more often for the immunity.

Oh and for the record, I'm doing just fine being 3.33 aps. In terms of DPS, a +10 5 aps Deicide BM only keeps aggro off of me if I don't use Power Dash. And I'm still only +6.

The only times I felt that 2.5 Rank 8 wasn't providing me with sufficient chi was in situations like Nirvana or Warsong with a mediocre squad. I didn't get to use my Sage Power Dash too often, though.

And btw, my 3.33 +6 G13 has pretty much identical DPS to my 2.5 aps +6 Rank 8.

And just for "credentials", my only other character is a level 92 Archer. So I did merchant my TT99s, my Nirvana stuffs, my Rank 8, my Warsoul helm. And my +6 refines.

In fact, if I hadn't ran into someone selling the TT90 dagger for 4m and if we hadn't had the lengthy 2x drops, I probably would've stuck with the Rank 8. I do still carry it around for AoEing in FCC and Warsong.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

So many jaded people. I understand that "aps isn't everything" argument but I really don't understand the "aps is pointless" argument that some of our more jaded trolls are trying to spread. Aps is directly correlated to dps, and for sins dps is directly correlated to bloodpaint and survivability. Especially with how niched we are to 1v1.

Olba, Raps are 1.95 mil buy and 2+mil sell currently on our server and the market is "cooler" than it has been in months. Raps where being bought for 2.3 and sold for 2.5 during 2x. You can subtract farming costs and say they only cost xxx mil but they still are worth about 200 mil.

I think Empu has been nerdraged at by aps idiots who don't understand the dps of 2.86 sage so many times that he's taken a reciprical approach and hates anything to do with aps. Even if it means lower damage and lower survivability, making him somewhat of a troll the last few months. R8 over G13 for sage disregarding price, really? You'd take a 40% aps hit, 40% more paint heals, and permaspark ability in exchange for about a 5-15% dph bump so you can be an aoe sin?

Traz gives a good balance of aps, dph, dps and knowing aps isn't everything but its definitely something. But not everyone can afford 2 x -.05 when you are looking at 1:400 rerolls and the possibility of 2800 raps to get there. When we talk about G13s for sage and you compare them to G15s you compared at 4.0. Possible yes, but unrelistic. I showed you that a weapon that costs 1.5bil to aquire (needing 300k rep and ring first) was > 14% better than a 200 mil weapon for sages and basically not better if the boss went over 3 sparks and you brought up G15 with 20 atk levels and -.1 int. What you said was completely correct, but out of most peoples realm of attainable.

The Sin forums are getting... mean.

Salari - Raging Tide

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Aps is directly correlated to dps, and for sins dps is directly correlated to bloodpaint and survivability.
.

That is true to a point, but if you do not have the dph to back up that aps its all irrelavent. Strickly talking dps, it takes quite a bit to overcome my R8's at +11 with 2 +75 att shards, specificly my g13 tt nirvans need 2 sockets with +75's @ +10 to overcome the damage potential of the R8's and it is not that much and they still cant match the dph potential of the r8's.. The main difference was more steady stream of heals and skill usage and eventualy i will upgrade them to g15's while i farm for more coins for ref's on gear.One thing i will be doing is farming new lunar bracers and feet to upgrade those to g15's for more def's and hp, sharding them with hp stones rather than DoT's.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Olba, Raps are 1.95 mil buy and 2+mil sell currently on our server and the market is "cooler" than it has been in months. Raps where being bought for 2.3 and sold for 2.5 during 2x. You can subtract farming costs and say they only cost xxx mil but they still are worth about 200 mil.

Not when I bought my 100, which was around the start of December, considering that I have a screenshot dating at 2.12.2011 showing myself with G13. And I have chat logs where I clearly imply that I got all of my 100 Raptures for 1.3-1.5m each.

Since I was away on a vacation between Dec 17th and Jan 7th, I wouldn't know how high the prices got.

Oh and anyone who pays 200m for G13 is a moron.

I think Empu has been nerdraged at by aps idiots who don't understand the dps of 2.86 sage so many times that he's taken a reciprical approach and hates anything to do with aps. Even if it means lower damage and lower survivability, making him somewhat of a troll the last few months. R8 over G13 for sage disregarding price, really? You'd take a 40% aps hit, 40% more paint heals, and permaspark ability in exchange for about a 5-15% dph bump so you can be an aoe sin?

Well, being 2.86 +12 R9, he gets told a lot that he's wasting his time being Sage instead of Demon.

Empu - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think Empu has been nerdraged at by aps idiots who don't understand the dps of 2.86 sage so many times that he's taken a reciprical approach and hates anything to do with aps. Even if it means lower damage and lower survivability, making him somewhat of a troll the last few months. R8 over G13 for sage disregarding price, really? You'd take a 40% aps hit, 40% more paint heals, and permaspark ability in exchange for about a 5-15% dph bump so you can be an aoe sin?

I think you simply never tried to understand what I tried to say. The whole sin forums got to a pure theoretical point with mostly ppl that seem to never solo or squad outside excel-simulations. The whole chi-gain thing isn't all that important as you make it sound. Just read back what Olba said, it's exactly the point I so often try to make and get dissed for.

Imo any of the G13+ daggers are "good enough" or "viable" for any build/culti sin. They all will give you enough bp heals to get hp up between 2 boss hits, after that point the bp calculation becomes not really worth it unless there is SS/GoF on the weap.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is exactly where I come from. The only down-side I ever had of being "low aps" was ppl like you thinking you can't do anything without 4 or 5 aps. Then again, I'm not interested in squadding up with aps-idiots anyway.

I did not called you an idiot, but I can return the service moron.
It's not about being able to do stuff in game, in the end it's all about how fast can you do it. That's the whole point of threadmill gear system. You need to go through this progression to get to next level, so on and so forth. Sure, you don't have any problems getting into 30 minutes nirvana runs, just like I don't have any problems getting into 3 man <10 min runs.
No one said anything about you not being able to compete and complete game challenges. You could run through the whole game naked slashing your wrists with a with TT80 dagger for what I care, I don't give a siht, that's your choice, but at least don't try to tell people what you do is normal.
While farming for endgame gear everyone and their mother will ask for aps. Sure,like in every game there are idiots, but with your judgement you just put all the ppl that give a siht about aps in the same group.
Excuse me mister smartypants that I will ignore you when it comes to farming, because I wanna do 10 and not 25 min nirvana runs. Why do you think everyone in WC is asking for 5 aps +10 or better for duo/trio farming? I guess all those are idiots right? why not take a 2.2 or 2.5 Sage sin with a +8 (cause it's 'nuff) R8 dagger with me and try to stay alive and extra 2-3 minutes for each boss while tanking 3-2 or 3-3? I mean, in the end, he gives me sage BP, right, so that exonerates him for being what he suppose to be : top tier DD.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I did not called you an idiot, but I can return the service moron.

Um... I think you misread what he said. He never directly called you an aps idiot, which in itself is very different from an idiot, but he just pointed out that he thinks you are the kind of person who squads with aps idiots.

It's not about being able to do stuff in game, in the end it's all about how fast can you do it. That's the whole point of threadmill gear system. You need to go through this progression to get to next level, so on and so forth. Sure, you don't have any problems getting into 30 minutes nirvana runs, just like I don't have any problems getting into 3 man <10 min runs.
No one said anything about you not being able to compete and complete game challenges. You could run through the whole game naked slashing your wrists with a with TT80 dagger for what I care, I don't give a siht, that's your choice, but at least don't try to tell people what you do is normal.
While farming for endgame gear everyone and their mother will ask for aps. Sure,like in every game there are idiots, but with your judgement you just put all the ppl that give a siht about aps in the same group.
Excuse me mister smartypants that I will ignore you when it comes to farming, because I wanna do 10 and not 25 min nirvana runs. Why do you think everyone in WC is asking for 5 aps +10 or better for duo/trio farming? I guess all those are idiots right? why not take a 2.2 or 2.5 Sage sin with a +8 (cause it's 'nuff) R8 dagger with me and try to stay alive and extra 2-3 minutes for each boss while tanking 3-2 or 3-3? I mean, in the end, he gives me sage BP, right, so that exonerates him for being what he suppose to be : top tier DD.

Um... Empu is +12 R9 2.86 Sage. And before that he had Rank 8. I think he knows the troubles of being a lower APS character.

As for your "top tier DD" thing, I would like for you to see the following PWCalcs:
5 aps +10 BM: 98,899 dps
2.86 aps +10 R8 Sage Sin: 92,221 dps
4.0 aps +10 R8 Demon Sin: 133,494 dps
2.86 aps +10 R9 Sage Sin: 114,629 dps

And BMs happen to be the second-most common DD in any squad. And yet I've hardly ever seen any squad asking specifically for a BM with Demon HF.

And just for comparison: I'm a 3.33 +6 Sage sin. Friend of mine is a +10 5 aps BM. When we duo FCC, the only reason I don't have aggro is because he's got Jones' Blessing and I don't.